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Thread: The roots of abortion ideology go back to this dehumanizing 17th century philosophy

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    The roots of abortion ideology go back to this dehumanizing 17th century philosophy

    Being an avid student of the history of ideas, I was naturally draw to this article, http://The roots of abortion ideolog...ury philosophy.

    The bond of mother and child has been mocked before. Thomas Hobbes, a materialist philosopher (if that is not a contradiction in terms), had this to say about mothers and infants in his fanciful state of nature:

    For in the condition of meer Nature, . . . the right of Dominion over the Child dependeth on her will, and is consequently hers. Again, seeing the Infant is first in the power of the Mother, so as she may either nourish, or expose it, if she nourish it, it oweth its life to the Mother; and is therefore obliged to obey her, rather than any other, and by consequence the Dominion over it is hers.

    One cannot fail to see the parallel to modern pro-abortion arguments. Yet Hobbes maintains this position only for his hypothetical state of nature or state of war. In civil society, exposure of infants would never be allowed by the sovereign power.

    Hobbes’s more subtle follower, John Locke, argues in the Second Treatise that parents have no power or right over the life and death of their children. For Locke, procreation is the “chief end” of marriage, and parents are accountable for their children. Even “Mr. Property,” who defends an almost absolute right over one’s property and one’s body, can see that marriage is ordered to children!
    Nevermind that Locke's treatises were arguments against Hobbes's view justifications of the state....

    It was the rest of the article, however, that really nailed it, the more general nature of materialism and the negative effects of viewing man en masse to the loss of diginity. to wit, the articles cites:

    This materialism that reduces the individual to his matter is akin to the collectivism that reduces the body politic to masses ready for manipulation. In his brilliant Gifford Lectures, Gabriel Marcel observes:

    What is immediately obvious is that whenever circumstances prevailing here and now lead to men being not only regarded as masses but actually treated as such—treated, that is, as aggregates, whose elements are transferable according to the demands of temporal vicissitudes—it becomes more and more difficult to keep in mind the inalienable characteristics of uniqueness and dignity which have hitherto been considered as attributes of the human soul created in the image of God. To say that these characteristics are becoming more and more lost to view is not enough; they are being, if one may so put it, actively denied, they are being trodden upon. Man may end by imagining that he can prove by his very behavior that he is not such a being as the theologians have defined.

    If we look at the question carefully we shall see, also, that we have here a real vicious circle. The less men are thought of as beings [with innate worth], . . . the stronger will be the temptation to use them as machines which are capable of a given output; this output being the only justification for their existence, they will end by having no other reality. There lies a road which runs straight to the forced labour camp and the cremation oven.

    In the same lectures, Marcel talks about the effort to create (or at least envision) a soulless world and modern man’s tendency towards “de-creation”. People have bought into the illusion that man is all exteriority and no interiority. In a similar way, Charles De Koninck spoke of the “lifeless world of biology.” The suppositions and framework of the modern science of biology, which are thoroughly materialistic, paved the way for human reductionism.
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    Well. That's interesting. I knew abortion isn't a modern idea but not that it went that far back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Being an avid student of the history of ideas, I was naturally draw to this article, The roots of abortion ideology go back to this dehumanizing 17th century philosophy.



    Nevermind that Locke's treatises were arguments against Hobbes's view justifications of the state....

    It was the rest of the article, however, that really nailed it, the more general nature of materialism and the negative effects of viewing man en masse to the loss of diginity. to wit, the articles cites:
    Wherein is abortion actually mentioned in the treatises of either Locke or Hobbes other than in the OP's philosophical meanderings?
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Yes, marriage is obviously "ordered to children" which is why I often say that gay marriage is inane.

    Interesting article. Marcel was an atheist who converted to Catholicism in the 20s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Wherein is abortion actually mentioned in the treatises of either Locke or Hobbes other than in the OP's philosophical meanderings?
    The OP is about the ideological roots of modern liberal justifications of abortion. The materialistic justification you yourself supplied a few days ago analogically comparing the monetary value of an acorn to a sapling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The OP is about the ideological roots of modern liberal justifications of abortion. The materialistic justification you yourself supplied a few days ago analogically comparing the monetary value of an acorn to a sapling.


    My use of monetary value was not to place same on the value of human life, but to illustrate the fact that no one would pay the same price for an acorn as they would a an oak sapling, because as with seeds, there is no guarantee that they will germinate. On this planet a lot of flowers are fertilized and produce seeds, but only a minority of seeds ultimately become plants. Similarly, only a percentage of fertilized eggs from any mammal actually survive to be born.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    My use of monetary value was not to place same on the value of human life, but to illustrate the fact that no one would pay the same price for an acorn as they would a an oak sapling, because as with seeds, there is no guarantee that they will germinate. On this planet a lot of flowers are fertilized and produce seeds, but only a minority of seeds ultimately become plants. Similarly, only a percentage of fertilized eggs from any mammal actually survive to be born.
    Regardless, your point was essentially materialist.

    Abortion is not natural. But let's not deflect from your materialist argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Regardless, your point was essentially materialist.

    Abortion is not natural. But let's not deflect from your materialist argument.
    The first trimester is the qualifying round for any fertilized egg. It is the time when a high percentage simply do not make it for all manner of reasons, including whether the body is accommodating. What makes one naturally terminated less valuable than one unnaturally terminated? In fact, a statistical percentage of those unnaturally terminated would still have not survived absent interference. When you can produce a theory that makes those that are unnaturally terminated more entitled to life than those arbitrarily terminated by the body, then let me know. Until then, first trimester fetuses are not babies.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Abortion isn't an ideology. It's a medical procedure.

    Those who support the right of women to have access to abortion don't celebrate it nor do they hate children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    Abortion isn't an ideology. It's a medical procedure.

    Those who support the right of women to have access to abortion don't celebrate it nor do they hate children.
    No one said abortion is an ideology. Wait, Who did confuse that too.

    The topic is the ideology that led to today's legal abortion.
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