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IMPress Polly
03-28-2013, 01:25 PM
We've done something like this before, but not in this format. My inspiration comes from a Public Policy Polling survey from last year (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2012/02/1-president-is-1-in-americas-hearts.html) that I just got the opportunity to look over recently. They asked a sample of ordinary Americans whether they viewed the various presidents we've had favorably or unfavorably. As a history buff and someone who's into political science, I found it interesting, needless to say. The favorable/unfavorable format makes things a little simpler than what we did on the other thread last year. Or it made it easier for me anyway. I'm easily able to assess whether I believe a given president basically did a good job or not. Below I'll post the main survey results (not broken down by demographic group) and bold my answers. If you'd like to participate, you can do the same: just copy/paste the questions below and bold your selections instead to make it as easy as possible.

As I think you'll see, sometimes I agree with the general public and sometimes I don't and I have favorite eras. Most people obviously don't know much about many of the 19th century presidents and respond accordingly. And, if you look at the demographic breakdowns at the full summary at the link, you'll also find that most people also seem to be persuaded that the modern day (their own lifetime) is just oh so much more dramatic than any other time in the history of this country: that modern times are filled with most of the best and worst presidents we've ever had. Goes to show that people generally are possessed of a certain amount of egotism, believing their own times to be the most important ever. Experts tend to be a little more objective, having better perspective on the contents of our history. Anyway, here goes:

PART ONE:

Q1 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of George Washington?
Favorable......................................... ............... 89%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 3%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 8%

Q2 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of John Adams?
Favorable......................................... ............... 59%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 5%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 36%

Q3 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Thomas Jefferson?
Favorable......................................... ............... 74%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 6%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 20%

Q4 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of James Madison?
Favorable......................................... ............... 37%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 7%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 56%

Q5 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of James Monroe?
Favorable......................................... ............... 39%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 6%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 54%

Q6 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of John Quincy Adams?
Favorable......................................... ............... 52%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 7%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 41%

Q7 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Andrew Jackson?
Favorable......................................... ............... 49%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 15%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 37%

Q8 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Martin Van Buren?
Favorable......................................... ............... 13%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 15%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 72%

Q9 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of William Henry Harrison?
Favorable......................................... ............... 14%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 8%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 78%

Q10 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of John Tyler?
Favorable......................................... ............... 10%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 10%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 80%

Q11 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of James K. Polk?
Favorable......................................... ............... 9%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 9%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 82%

Q12 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Zachary Taylor?
Favorable......................................... ............... 15%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 9%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 76%
Q13 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Millard Fillmore?
Favorable......................................... ............... 7%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 12%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 81%

Q14 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Franklin Pierce?
Favorable......................................... ............... 8%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 8%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 84%

Q15 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of James Buchanan?
Favorable......................................... ............... 11%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 13%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 76%

Q16 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Abraham Lincoln?
Favorable......................................... ............... 85%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 7%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 8%

Q17 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Andrew Johnson?
Favorable......................................... ............... 26%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 18%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 56%

Q18 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Ulysses S. Grant?
Favorable......................................... ............... 51%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 16%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 33%

Q19 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Rutherford B. Hayes?
Favorable......................................... ............... 12%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 11%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 77%
Q20 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of James Garfield?
Favorable......................................... ............... 16%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 13%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 71%

Q21 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Chester Arthur?
Favorable......................................... ............... 10%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 13%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 77%

Q22 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Grover Cleveland?
Favorable......................................... ............... 14%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 13%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 73%

Q23 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Benjamin Harrison?
Favorable......................................... ............... 12%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 9%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 79%

Q24 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of William McKinley?
Favorable......................................... ............... 17%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 13%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 71%

IMPress Polly
03-28-2013, 01:26 PM
PART TWO:

Q25 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Teddy Roosevelt?
Favorable......................................... ............... 66%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 9%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 25%

Q26 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of William Howard Taft?
Favorable......................................... ............... 17%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 15%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 67%
Q27 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Woodrow Wilson?
Favorable......................................... ............... 34%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 20%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 46%

Q28 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Warren Harding?
Favorable......................................... ............... 12%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 19%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 69%

Q29 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Calvin Coolidge?
Favorable......................................... ............... 18%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 22%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 60%
Q30 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Herbert Hoover?
Favorable......................................... ............... 25%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 29%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 46%

Q31 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Franklin D. Roosevelt?
Favorable......................................... ............... 62%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 22%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 16%

Q32 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Harry Truman?
Favorable......................................... ............... 62%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 11%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 27%

Q33 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Dwight Eisenhower?
Favorable......................................... ............... 62%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 11%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 26%
Q34 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of John F. Kennedy?
Favorable......................................... ............... 70%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 21%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 9%

Q35 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Lyndon Johnson?
Favorable......................................... ............... 34%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 42%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 24%

Q36 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Richard Nixon?
Favorable......................................... ............... 27%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 59%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 13%

Q37 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Gerald Ford?
Favorable......................................... ............... 49%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 28%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 23%

Q38 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Jimmy Carter?
Favorable......................................... ............... 44%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 44%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 12%

Q39 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Ronald Reagan?
Favorable......................................... ............... 62%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 30%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 8%

Q40 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of George H.W. Bush?
Favorable......................................... ............... 51%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 42%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 8%
Q41 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Bill Clinton?
Favorable......................................... ............... 54%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 38%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 8%

Q42 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of George W. Bush?
Favorable......................................... ............... 45%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 46%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 9%

Q43 Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion
of Barack Obama?
Favorable......................................... ............... 46%
Unfavorable .................................................. .. 49%
Not sure .................................................. ........ 5%

Q44 Who did you vote for President in 2008?
John McCain............................................ ....... 45%
Barack Obama............................................. ... 47%
Someone else/Don't remember ...................... 8%

Q45 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal .................................................. .... 11%
Somewhat liberal ............................................ 20%
Moderate.......................................... ............... 28%
Somewhat conservative.................................. 25%
Very conservative ........................................... 17%


Q46 If you are a woman, press 1. If a man, press 2.
Woman .................................................. ......... 50%
Man............................................... .................. 50%

Q47 If you are a Democrat, press 1. If a Republican,
press 2. If you are an independent or identify
with another party, press 3.
Democrat .................................................. ...... 40%
Republican........................................ .............. 37%
Independent/Other.......................................... 22%

Q48 If you are Hispanic, press 1. If white, press 2.
If African-American, press 3. If other, press 4.
Hispanic.......................................... ................ 10%
White .................................................. ............ 72%
African-American ............................................ 11%
Other............................................. .................. 7%

Q49 If you are 18 to 29 years old, press 1. If 30 to
45, press 2. If 46 to 65, press 3. If you are
older than 65, press 4.
18 to 29................................................ ........... 15%
30 to 45................................................ ........... 27%
46 to 65................................................ ........... 38%
Older than 65................................................ .. 20%

P.S. Yes I have reasons for each of my answers. I can clarify them in any given case if need be.

P.P.S. This survey actually over-represents Republicans, as Republicans presently compose just 22% of the U.S. population and composed something like 30% at the time this poll was taken (as opposed to the 37% they composed in this poll). So actual public opinion is probably a little more favorable to Democrats than this poll indicates. White people are also over-represented. In reality, non-Hispanic white people compose 67% of the U.S. population, not the 72% they do in this poll. Just a couple asides.

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 01:29 PM
Q44 Who did you vote for President in 2008?
John McCain............................................ ....... 45%
Barack Obama............................................. ... 47%
Someone else/Don't remember ...................... 8%

LOL very ironic..

Peter1469
03-28-2013, 01:41 PM
Q1 Favorable
Q2 Favorable
Q3 Favorable
Q4 Favorable
Q5 Favorable
Q6 Favorable
Q7 Favorable. J
Q8 Not sure
Q9 Not sure
Q10 Not sure
Q11 Not sure
Q12 Not sure
Q14 Not sure
Q15 Not sure
Q16 Favorable
Q17 Favorable
Q18 Favorable
Q19 Not sure
Q21 Not sure
Q22 Not sure
Q23 Not sure
Q24 Not sure
Q25 Unfavorable
Q26 Not sure
Q27 Unfavorable
Q28 Not sure
Q29 Favorable
Q30 Unfavorable
Q31 Unfavorable
Q32 Favorable
Q33 Favorable
Q34 Unfavorable
Q35 Unfavorable
Q36 Favorable
Q37 Favorable
Q38 Unfavorable
Q39 Favorable

Q40 Unfavorable
Q41
Unfavorable
Q42 Unfavorable
Q43 Unfavorable
Q44 Someone else/Don't remember
Q45 Fiscal conservative; social moderate
Q46 Man
Q47 Independent/Other
Q48 White
Q49 30 to 45

IMPress Polly
03-28-2013, 01:55 PM
Peter:

Thanks for your answers!

I was just curious though why you bolded some and not others since you simplified the layout?

Peter1469
03-28-2013, 02:23 PM
Peter:

Thanks for your answers!

I was just curious though why you bolded some and not others since you simplified the layout?

I didn't bold them- I just didn't unbold them from the original. I will clean it up.

IMPress Polly
03-29-2013, 04:45 PM
Ooooh, okay.

Well anyhow, I may get into more detail on this next week when I get more chance to spend time online (or not, we'll see), but yeah I'm not much a fan of the 19th century's Democratic Party, as you can probably tell. And since the 1980s, I don't care for the Republican Party. Beyond those rules though my standards are fairly non-partisan. There are some almost-exceptions though like Andrew Jackson for example. I may detail the nuance with which I see the likes of Jackson more next week. Maybe.

Peter1469
03-29-2013, 05:33 PM
Ooooh, okay.

Well anyhow, I may get into more detail on this next week when I get more chance to spend time online (or not, we'll see), but yeah I'm not much a fan of the 19th century's Democratic Party, as you can probably tell. And since the 1980s, I don't care for the Republican Party. Beyond those rules though my standards are fairly non-partisan. There are some almost-exceptions though like Andrew Jackson for example. I may detail the nuance with which I see the likes of Jackson more next week. Maybe.

Sounds good Ms History teacher.

I look forward to your thoughts.

I put my money on president Coolidge as the best recent president.

IMPress Polly
04-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Okay last week I mentioned that I might return here this week to expand a little, particularly on the subject of Andrew Jackson and the complexity with which I view his legacy. So let's get into this:

I view Jackson's overall legacy as basically negative, but not by too much. As much takes some explaining to understand. Last year, I highlighted the class conspiracy that was organized to construct the current U.S. Constitution in the 1780s (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/5492-The-Treason-of-the-U-S-Constitution): all the moneyed classes rallied together in a conspiracy against the impoverished farmers who composed the vast majority of the population to make that happen. My personal favoritism in those early days of the nation naturally goes out to these masses and their politics. By the time we reached the conclusion of the War of 1812 and especially by the 1820s, however, significant fissures in the aforementioned class alliance had begun to emerge. Namely, the class interests of the American manufacturers on the one hand and those of the slave plantation owners on the other were becoming increasingly antagonistic. There was no question that the emergence of manufacturing had benefited the slave system in giving it a lease on life by way of the cotton gin. Before the cotton gin, the slave system appeared to be in real trouble in this country; indeed on the verge of total collapse, being based mainly in the lagging tobacco industry. (The tobacco industry is still in the business of enslaving people, but now they only enslave their customers, not their workers too.) But the cotton gin enabled it to expand into a new field, thus extending the life of the slave system. For this very reason we find the political representatives of the Southern slave plantation owners allying themselves with the interests of the Western manufacturers that were coming to dominate the middle of the country at the close of the war. The Southern states, whose politics were best represented in those of one Congressman John Calhoun of South Carolina (whom I will characterize as the epitome of evil in this period of our history), allied with House Speaker Henry Clay's manufacturing-based middle America forces in supporting the re-chartering of the central bank and the new protective tariff in 1816 in the hopes that the South might become the future hub of American manufacturing or at least that their slaveholders might be able to sell their products to the cotton factories of New England at a more profitable price than their English counterparts could offer. The foremost opponent of these measures was Congressman Daniel Webster of Massachusetts, representing the interests of the declining New England merchants. The merchants of New England had been the principal force orchestrating both the American Revolution and the forging the constitution of 1787 both. But Jefferson's embargo and the subsequent War of 1812 ravaged them seemingly beyond repair, while these same policies functioned as a de facto tariff protecting the development of American manufacturers, ensuring the beginnings of the rise of the factory system in this country and thus our true independence -- our economic independence -- from Britain. The embargo and the war ruined New England's commercial interests and their Federalist Party went down with them. Over the 1820s, these commercial interests were displaced by the development of New England's own manufacturers and Webster changed his politics in the latter part of that decade accordingly to match the changing interests of his constituents. Incidentally, if it can be said that I consider Thomas Paine and Daniel Shays my personal heroes (i.e. favorite personalities) of the initial revolutionary era and Thomas Jefferson my personal hero of the initial post-constitution period, then it can be also be said that I consider Daniel Webster my personal hero of the 1812-War period through the ensuing several decades. Anyway, getting back to the point, the Southern slaveholders' aforementioned interest in selling their products to New England's cotton factories didn't come to fruition and they instead wound up with their principal relationship being to the English cotton factories instead. Thus did they turn on the American manufacturers and their interests, coming to (as concentrated in the 1820s shift in Calhoun's politics) oppose the economic development of the nation. Thus did they develop an unpatriotic class interest antagonistic to the naturally patriotic interests of the manufacturers. This development causes me to side with the American industrial capitalists in this new period in opposition to the plantation-based slave system based upon my conviction that the latter was the greater evil. The political expression of this emergent divide was that between the National Republican Party and the Democratic Party, with some increasing populist complexities thrown in (i.e. the working masses of both the field and the factory gaining in political power, mainly as the result of the first major labor movement in this country, which took place from roughly 1824-36).

Where does all this connect up with the Jackson presidency, you ask? It connects to the three main controversies of his time in office: 1) the bank war, 2) the expulsion of the Cherokee, and 3) the Force Bill. Let's start with the bank war and the expulsion of the Cherokee. Now let's be clear about this right from the beginning: the central bank of that era was not equivalent to today's Federal Reserve system. The Federal Reserve is a publicly-controlled system that was demanded by the forces of organized labor in the early 20th century as a means of regulating the banks. The 19th century Bank of the United States, by contrast, was simply a regular private bank that was sponsored by the government and opposed by working people generally: both farmers and wage-workers alike. The 19th century's central bank acquired its assets by systematically foreclosing upon vast numbers of impoverished frontier dwellers. That is how it sustained its existence. The opposition of the frontier dwellers, as well as the urban workers, to the bank was the quite natural expression of the age-old divide between debtors and creditors. The former naturally wants the latter to be as weak as possible, particularly when it comes to collections. I hence understand the position of the debtors on this matter. Nevertheless, contextually speaking, I cannot agree with it. There are two key reasons: first, there is the question of whether Americans should have been settling in the western frontier, displacing the native peoples from their lands (e.g. the expulsion of the Cherokee ordered by Jackson) in the first place. The fact that the option of going west came at the expense of other peoples goes to show that those who chose that option were not themselves innocent of oppression. The bank's foreclosures, if anything, served as a sort of limited check on that option while they existed. Personally, I side with the position Daniel Webster advanced from the end of the 1820s when he called for outlawing all new western settlements. This position corresponds to keeping that land under public ownership rather than systematically selling it all off to private individuals. Such a policy would have made for a much smaller, but much less genocidal and thus more moral America. Anyhow, there was also another importance to the central bank: through its exploitative and cruel foreclosures on the holdings of western settlers, it accumulated the capital resources that many American manufacturers needed to build factories and thus to advance the system of industrial capitalism relative to the slave plantation system. Manufacturers received this accumulation in the form of often-needed loans. Thus we see how the National Republican platform components were connected. They were part of a political package just like the closure of the bank and the expulsion of the Cherokee were part of an opposing political package. As we know, Jackson closed the central bank, thus opening up a wave of rampant speculation, and in particular western land speculation, in the form of a new economic bubble that was burst in 1837 by Britain's central bank when it raised the interest rate for loans, thus leading to the famous Panic of 1837. My tendency is to see this as having been overall a bad thing for the reasons just described. While working people may have favored the bank's closure, I agree with Karl Marx (who was alive during this time and wrote various commentaries on these sorts of subjects) in his recognition that the system of industrial capitalism needed to vanquish that of the slave plantations before a serious and robust working class movement could develop. Marx believed that a nation composed primarily of agrarian slaves could not develop a robust organized labor movement, and thus the defeat the slave plantation system needed to be the priority of that era.

IMPress Polly
04-05-2013, 01:49 PM
When South Carolina -- acting on a convenient constitutional theory devised by South Carolina native and vice president under Jackson John Calhoun -- decided to "nullify" (read: ignore) all protective tariffs that had been passed into law by the federal government (which, as explained before, benefited Northern manufacturers at the expense of Southern slave plantations because the South had come to prefer doing business with English cotton factories rather than with New England ones), President Jackson revealed that he had a patriotic side after all though. With President Jackson's full support, Congress passed the Force Bill in response, which authorized the U.S. military to enforce tariff collections in South Carolina since the state government would not. In response, South Carolina "nullified" the Force Bill. President Jackson spoke of hanging his former ally Calhoun before unfortunately Henry Clay intervened with a proposal to basically just capitulate to South Carolina's demands over time and according legislation gradually phasing out the tariff was passed (and not "nullified"). This was an opportunistic gesture on Clay's part that allowed the creation of a new political alliance called the Whig Party. Unlike the previous National Republican Party, the Whigs were composed not only of the allies of American industry, but also included some of the biggest allies of the Southern plantation owners who favored Calhoun's ideas over Jacksonian patriotism. Clay did not understand that this means of broadening his party's tent would embolden the South to rebel against federal law in all sorts of additional ways in the long run, and finally to attempt conquest of the Union in the end. And I might add that the legitimization of secession was precisely Calhoun's aim in putting forward his "nullification" principle from the get-go, as he had clarified in 1828. President Jackson understood that, accordingly, the "nullification" crisis was in reality nothing less than a secession crisis and responded accordingly. Further evidence lies in the fact that Daniel Webster agreed with Jackson's position on this issue and supported the Force Bill. This deal with the devil that forged the Whig Party ultimately proved to be its undoing. The Whigs wound up sending mostly the latter, imperialist, anti-industry faction of their party to the White House whenever they won the presidency (namely Tyler and Fillmore), much to the benefit of the slave system. Ultimately, in order to regain political relevance, the industry supporters had to separate from the pro-slavery wing of the Whigs and form a new party (the Republican Party of course) that was mostly analogous to the old National Republican Party. Jackson's support of the Force Bill was not, as the Disney-owned History Channel has foolishly proclaimed, hot-headed. It was the right move. It revealed Jackson to be, in the end, a principled nationalist with great foresight. That's the caveat to Jackson's otherwise pretty negative legacy, IMO, and it's a big one.

TheDictator
04-15-2013, 10:30 AM
Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer.

Ransom
04-26-2013, 12:33 PM
Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer.

And honest Abe?

IMPress Polly
04-27-2013, 10:20 AM
Mt. Rushmore

Mt. Rushmore is considered a representation of who we are as a nation. The four historical U.S. presidents one finds portrayed there are, of course, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. There have been many subsequent attempts to add more recent presidents to that roster, but so far none have succeeded. In my opinion, five historical presidents deserve to be represented on Mt. Rushmore such as to correspond to five distinct eras our economics and politics have undergone. Whether I like all the presidents in question (and I don't) is beside the point. Our monument in question should convey a correct understanding of the biggest landmark moments in our history. Accordingly, I believe five presidents deserve a place on Mt. Rushmore. Here are the key historical landmarks that correspond to their respective administrations:

1) George Washington - The founding of the nation.

2) Andrew Jackson - The ascendancy of the frontier dwellers and the slave plantation owners to the dominant position in American society.

3) Abraham Lincoln - The defeat of the slave system and the ascendancy of the industrial capitalists to the dominant position in American society.

4) Teddy Roosevelt - The ascendancy of the American wage-workers (i.e. start of the progressive era) and, with it, the general democratization of American society, a,k.a. the beginning of America's golden age.

5) Ronald Reagan - Financialization of the American economy, i.e. the end of the American industrial age, marked by increasing dependence on speculation for all economic expansion and sustained growth of the national debt. Global context: Beginning of the age of capitalism's globalization in earnest.

Greenridgeman
04-27-2013, 10:29 AM
Mt. Rushmore

Mt. Rushmore is considered a representation of who we are as a nation. The four historical U.S. presidents one finds portrayed there are, of course, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. There have been many subsequent attempts to add more recent presidents to that roster, but so far none have succeeded. In my opinion, five historical presidents deserve to be represented on Mt. Rushmore such as to correspond to five distinct eras our economics and politics have undergone. Whether I like all the presidents in question (and I don't) is beside the point. Our monument in question should convey a correct understanding of the biggest landmark moments in our history. Accordingly, I believe five presidents deserve a place on Mt. Rushmore. Here are the key historical landmarks that correspond to their respective administrations:

1) George Washington - The founding of the nation.

2) Andrew Jackson - The ascendancy of the frontier dwellers and the slave plantation owners to the dominant position in American society.

3) Abraham Lincoln - The defeat of the slave system and the ascendancy of the industrial capitalists to the dominant position in American society.

4) Teddy Roosevelt - The ascendancy of the American wage-workers (i.e. start of the progressive era) and, with it, the general democratization of American society, a,k.a. the beginning of America's golden age.

5) Ronald Reagan - Financialization of the American economy, i.e. the end of the American industrial age, marked by increasing dependence on speculation for all economic expansion and sustained growth of the national debt. Global context: Beginning of the age of capitalism's globalization in earnest.



My kid wanted to see Mt. Rushmore.

I took him and thought it was an abomination, a desecration of a beautiful mountain.

I think the only thing appropriate now would be chisel off the Presidents, make a carving of God weeping at what happened to his mountain.

Peter1469
04-27-2013, 10:52 AM
Mt. Rushmore

Mt. Rushmore is considered a representation of who we are as a nation. The four historical U.S. presidents one finds portrayed there are, of course, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. There have been many subsequent attempts to add more recent presidents to that roster, but so far none have succeeded. In my opinion, five historical presidents deserve to be represented on Mt. Rushmore such as to correspond to five distinct eras our economics and politics have undergone. Whether I like all the presidents in question (and I don't) is beside the point. Our monument in question should convey a correct understanding of the biggest landmark moments in our history. Accordingly, I believe five presidents deserve a place on Mt. Rushmore. Here are the key historical landmarks that correspond to their respective administrations:

1) George Washington - The founding of the nation.

2) Andrew Jackson - The ascendancy of the frontier dwellers and the slave plantation owners to the dominant position in American society.

3) Abraham Lincoln - The defeat of the slave system and the ascendancy of the industrial capitalists to the dominant position in American society.

4) Teddy Roosevelt - The ascendancy of the American wage-workers (i.e. start of the progressive era) and, with it, the general democratization of American society, a,k.a. the beginning of America's golden age.

5) Ronald Reagan - Financialization of the American economy, i.e. the end of the American industrial age, marked by increasing dependence on speculation for all economic expansion and sustained growth of the national debt. Global context: Beginning of the age of capitalism's globalization in earnest.

Good picks.

Ransom
04-27-2013, 07:02 PM
Jefferson must be included. FDR as well. Lincoln. Washington good picks

IMPress Polly
04-28-2013, 07:49 AM
Ransom wrote:
Jefferson must be included. FDR as well. Lincoln. Washington good picks

I actually disagree. The mere fact that a president was popular (e.g. Jefferson, FDR) shouldn't be an automatic qualifier, IMO. Only those presidencies marking an exceptional turn of events -- those presidencies that served as the political expression of major new economic developments -- should be represented, I believe.

Greenridgeman
04-28-2013, 08:37 AM
I actually disagree. The mere fact that a president was popular (e.g. Jefferson, FDR) shouldn't be an automatic qualifier, IMO. Only those presidencies marking an exceptional turn of events -- those presidencies that served as the political expression of major new economic developments -- should be represented, I believe.



Wht pray tell, was the Lousiana Purchase and the doubling of the size of the United States by peaceful means?

Greenridgeman
04-28-2013, 08:38 AM
And honest Abe?


Honest Abe wasn't honest, let's start there.

IMPress Polly
04-28-2013, 09:47 AM
There was no real change to the nation's underlying economic structure as a result of the Louisiana Purchase.

Chris
04-28-2013, 10:28 AM
I actually disagree. The mere fact that a president was popular (e.g. Jefferson, FDR) shouldn't be an automatic qualifier, IMO. Only those presidencies marking an exceptional turn of events -- those presidencies that served as the political expression of major new economic developments -- should be represented, I believe.

Don't you mean major new economic accidents?

What developments could you mean?

KC
04-28-2013, 10:37 AM
I actually disagree. The mere fact that a president was popular (e.g. Jefferson, FDR) shouldn't be an automatic qualifier, IMO. Only those presidencies marking an exceptional turn of events -- those presidencies that served as the political expression of major new economic developments -- should be represented, I believe.

But doesn't FDR represent the biggest change in US economic policy since its inception. Yes, TR marks the first real progressive presidency but FDR took state intervention to new levels.

Chris
04-28-2013, 10:47 AM
But doesn't FDR represent the biggest change in US economic policy since its inception. Yes, TR marks the first real progressive presidency but FDR took state intervention to new levels.

Those are changes in political policies, a gradual increase in attempts to manage the unmanageable, the economy. Economic change, like the Great Depression, other depressions, recessions are more or less the accidental result of mismanaging the economy. But those a mere blips on the radar screen of real economic change, which happened only once:

http://i.snag.gy/yFcIp.jpg

IMPress Polly
04-28-2013, 02:32 PM
KC wrote:
But doesn't FDR represent the biggest change in US economic policy since its inception. Yes, TR marks the first real progressive presidency but FDR took state intervention to new levels.

The way I see it, FDR's New Deal represented a major expansion upon the type of reform project launched by TR. In the same way, I see Johnson's Great Society as an expansion upon the premises of the New Deal. These were but different component-parts of the same basic package that corresponded to the demands of organized labor. The ascendancy of labor's demands to the status of political and economic relevance is the main thing to note in a historical sense, I believe, and the first major national political expression of their said ascendancy was TR's willingness to accede to some of their demands. TR set the precedent that the others followed and expanded upon. Reagan reversed the trajectory. That was the next fundamental change after TR, I believe. (Unless one counts the 1920s, but that seems as more of an exception to the rule; a relatively short interruption of the progressive era.)

Chris
04-28-2013, 02:38 PM
The way I see it, FDR's New Deal represented a major expansion upon the type of reform project launched by TR. In the same way, I see Johnson's Great Society as an expansion upon the premises of the New Deal. These were but different component-parts of the same basic package that corresponded to the demands of organized labor. The ascendancy of labor's demands to the status of political and economic relevance is the main thing to note in a historical sense, I believe, and the first major national political expression of their said ascendancy was TR's willingness to accede to some of their demands. TR set the precedent that the others followed and expanded upon. Reagan reversed the trajectory. That was the next fundamental change after TR, I believe. (Unless one counts the 1920s, but that seems as more of an exception to the rule; a relatively short interruption of the progressive era.)

Political change that imposed central planning on the economy, not economic change. The political change was Keynesian. When that failed, Reagan provided a brief respite by applying Friedmanite/Hayekian policies, which lasted till Bush went back to the same old Keynesian policies. These were political changes. Not to say all that keynesian policy hasn't had an adverse affect on the economy.

Peter1469
04-28-2013, 07:42 PM
The way I see it, FDR's New Deal represented a major expansion upon the type of reform project launched by TR. In the same way, I see Johnson's Great Society as an expansion upon the premises of the New Deal. These were but different component-parts of the same basic package that corresponded to the demands of organized labor. The ascendancy of labor's demands to the status of political and economic relevance is the main thing to note in a historical sense, I believe, and the first major national political expression of their said ascendancy was TR's willingness to accede to some of their demands. TR set the precedent that the others followed and expanded upon. Reagan reversed the trajectory. That was the next fundamental change after TR, I believe. (Unless one counts the 1920s, but that seems as more of an exception to the rule; a relatively short interruption of the progressive era.)


And it all was unconstitutional.

Ivan88
05-23-2013, 08:30 PM
Polly, do you write your research papers the same way you post them in oversized blocks of text all jammed together? I find it diffult to read your big block writing style because I get lost in it.

Regarding presidents in the USA, we got what we deserved, good or bad. George Washington immediately began wiping out the rights of the American People via his whiskey tax war on Appalachian farmers.

Most of our presidents were bad in terms of what America is supposed to be. John Kennedy was one of the best. Too bad he didn't know what he was up against, and I say despite his vicious war on Katanga, as I believe he was manipulated into that by traitors in his administration.