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TNHarley
03-28-2013, 02:41 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

Check the list out
They are all people who claimed to be the "messiah"
My question is, to Christians, what is the difference?

Captain Obvious
03-28-2013, 04:34 PM
Virtually all of them are post Christ, "copycat" messiahs.

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 04:37 PM
So because they were after, means it wasn't true?

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 04:37 PM
What about the people born WAYYY before Jesus that had the same story as him?

Captain Obvious
03-28-2013, 04:42 PM
I'm not trying to make a point to determine who is the real slim shady and who isn't, I'm suggesting... a couple things also.

Clearly they all can't be - most likely only 1 is. If one would take history and objectivity out of the formula and look at chance, random statistics stuff, you would want to throw out those that would be deemed "copycat" messiahs.

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 04:45 PM
What history and objectivity are you talking about?
I am not trying to hate on or bash the religion
I am just curious as to what people think and will say
VERY curious about religions

Captain Obvious
03-28-2013, 04:47 PM
David Koresh is on that list - who thinks he's the real messiah and not Christ, or anyone else on that list?

That's the objectivity part.

Even if you add a little objectivity to the mix, you could easily go through that list and weed out maybe 98% of the claimants.

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 04:50 PM
Well yea, but thats not the point
They all claimed they were, including Jesus
But what makes him the REAL one and them not?
That he had a book that survived?
Just having faith?

Chris
03-28-2013, 04:55 PM
Jews are still waiting, right?


Like Thomas Jefferson, I would consider Jesus a philosopher right up there with Socrates. I don't think any of the others fill the bill quite like that.

TNHarley
03-28-2013, 04:59 PM
They didnt get a book to look back at
Everyone already had the messiah they wanted

zelmo1234
03-28-2013, 05:19 PM
We can locate each and every grave of all of the others, onely one has an empty tomb!

He is Risen, we will celebrate this on Sunday! HAPPY EASTER!

Captain Obvious
03-28-2013, 05:38 PM
Well yea, but thats not the point
They all claimed they were, including Jesus
But what makes him the REAL one and them not?
That he had a book that survived?
Just having faith?

That's a philosophical discussion that I generally don't partake in unless tequila is involved.

TNHarley
03-29-2013, 11:04 PM
It is Friday now lol

TNHarley
03-29-2013, 11:05 PM
We can locate each and every grave of all of the others, onely one has an empty tomb!

He is Risen, we will celebrate this on Sunday! HAPPY EASTER!
So did his body evaporate?

Peter1469
03-30-2013, 01:56 AM
So did his body evaporate?

I would say yes- turned into pure energy.

Chris
03-30-2013, 10:03 AM
I would say yes- turned into pure energy.

That's sort of Buddhist.

Peter1469
03-30-2013, 12:17 PM
All of the mystical traditions....

Ivan88
03-30-2013, 07:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

Check the list out
They are all people who claimed to be the "messiah"
My question is, to Christians, what is the difference?

To the self professed "Jews" the messiah is themselves.
To real Christians and Muslims, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and anyone who follows Him has the Messiah in himself.
In the Iranian TV serial THE PROPHET JOSEPH, Joseph was a Messiah for His time.
http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=5770e1dc3ef156762cec full video with english subtitles
http://mysite.verizon.net/ress8ouv/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/JosephEgypta.jpg
A rough short from the Prophet Joseph series on Jacob and his brats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miZk1TDO53Y

Chris
03-30-2013, 07:14 PM
To the self professed "Jews" the messiah is themselves.

Far as I understand, they are still waiting.

Chloe
03-30-2013, 07:26 PM
Far as I understand, they are still waiting.
@Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) Yes still waiting, but what Ivan is trying to say, just not very well unfortunately, is that Jews believe that everybody has the possibility or opportunity to be the messiah since the messiah is a normal human being that is supposed to accomplish certain things for Israel and Jews as a whole in order to be considered the messiah. Of course one of those things to accomplish is to rebuild the temple in jerusalem but since that will never happen without starting WW3 since there is currently a mosque on that site right now it is safe to say that we won't see him or her for a while.

Which some of this is why Jesus isn't considered to be the messiah in Judaism since he basically went against what the messiah was supposed to be when he claimed to be the son of God, since the messiah is supposed to be human and not divine or anything like that, and he didn't accomplish any of the things that the messiah is supposed to accomplish while he was alive.

Tad Scratchy
03-30-2013, 07:44 PM
Luke 22:70

New International Version (©2011) (http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You say that I am."
New Living Translation (©2007) (http://nlt.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
They all shouted, "So, are you claiming to be the Son of God?" And he replied, "You say that I am."English Standard Version (©2001) (http://esv.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”

Chris
03-30-2013, 07:46 PM
@Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) Yes still waiting, but what Ivan is trying to say, just not very well unfortunately, is that Jews believe that everybody has the possibility or opportunity to be the messiah since the messiah is a normal human being that is supposed to accomplish certain things for Israel and Jews as a whole in order to be considered the messiah. Of course one of those things to accomplish is to rebuild the temple in jerusalem but since that will never happen without starting WW3 since there is currently a mosque on that site right now it is safe to say that we won't see him or her for a while.

Which some of this is why Jesus isn't considered to be the messiah in Judaism since he basically went against what the messiah was supposed to be when he claimed to be the son of God, since the messiah is supposed to be human and not divine or anything like that, and he didn't accomplish any of the things that the messiah is supposed to accomplish while he was alive.

Thanks for that clarification!!

Chris
03-30-2013, 07:47 PM
Luke 22:70

New International Version (©2011) (http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You say that I am."
New Living Translation (©2007) (http://nlt.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
They all shouted, "So, are you claiming to be the Son of God?" And he replied, "You say that I am."English Standard Version (©2001) (http://esv.scripturetext.com/luke/22.htm)
So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”

Everyone was son of God back then.

Tad Scratchy
03-30-2013, 07:49 PM
I would think the son of God would have taken that very opportune momemt to say "yes".

Not say "you're the one who said that".


I find that part very telling. Especially since around 2011 bibles started translating it as "yes, you say it and I am".

but prior to that 'correction' by modern believers it was '"you say that I am". Implying "I never said that".

Tad Scratchy
03-30-2013, 07:54 PM
Everyone was son of God back then.

Quite literally.


Jupiter, Neptune (http://thepoliticalforums.com/neptune.htm) and Pluto (http://thepoliticalforums.com/pluto.htm) were the three sons of Saturn (http://thepoliticalforums.com/saturn.htm). They divided up the world between themselves. Jupiter took the air, Neptune had the sea and Pluto ruled under the earth, the home of the Dead.Jupiter means Father Jove (Father in Latin is "pater").

TheDictator
04-01-2013, 12:35 PM
The major difference was that Jesus Christ beat death and walked away from his grave. We have historical documentation of eye witnesses to this event. We have historical documentation of the miracles he did. He led a rebellion against sinful living not a rebellion against a sinnful government. In his revolt his followers changed the ideas of society not the rulers of a government.

TNHarley
04-01-2013, 12:42 PM
TheDictator
What about these guys? They pre-date Jesus, with CLOSE to the same stories. There is historical documentation about these guys too. Sounds like a bunch of k00ks wrote it.............
According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

Romulus is born of a vestal virgin, which was a priestess of the hearth god Vesta sworn to celibacy. His mother claims that the divine impregnated her, yet this is not believed by the King. Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, are tossed in the river and left for dead. (A “slaughter of the innocents” tale which parallels that of Matthew 2:13-16). Romulus is hailed as the son of god. He is “snatched away to heaven” by a whirlwind (It is assumed that the gods took him), and he makes post mortem appearances. In his work Numa Pompilius, Plutarch records that there was a darkness covering the earth before his death (Just as there was during Jesus’ death according to Mark 15:33). He also states that Romulus is to be know afterwards as ‘Quirinus’; A god which belonged to the Archiac Triad (a “triple deity” similar to the concept of the Trinity).

Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.” He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification. Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25. He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine. He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb. His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Heracles is the Son of a god (Zeus). It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of Heracles, just as Jesus is essentially his own grandpa, being both “The root and offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) as he is part of the triune God which is the father of Adam and eventually of Jesus. Both are doubly related to the Supreme God.
Diodorus writes that,”For as regards the magnitude of the deeds which he accomplished it is generally agreed that Heracles has been handed down as one who surpassed all men of whom memory from the beginning of time has brought down an account; consequently it is a difficult attainment to report each one of his deeds in a worthy manner and to present a record which shall be on a level with labours so great, the magnitude of which won for him the prize of immortality.”
Jesus is also said to have done a very large number of good works. John 21:25 says that: “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

In the middle of the 100s AD, out along the south coast of the Black Sea, Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who: came to Earth through a miraculous birth, was the Earthly manifestation of divinity, came to earth in fulfillment of divine prophecy, gave his chief believer the power of prophecy, gave believers the power to speak in tongues, performed miracles, healed the sick, and raised the dead.

Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh.” Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.


Seems the stories are pretty standard lol

TheDictator
04-01-2013, 01:30 PM
Yes there are some stories that are similar to the story of Jesus Christ. Most people do not and I do not know of anyone who believes the other stories and are willing to die for that belief. Even today there are people who are giving up their life for the belief of Christianity. I guess the question should be asked why has so many people died for Jesus Christ? and not for the others you mention. I know answer but I will let you take a stab at it.

TNHarley
04-01-2013, 01:40 PM
But what makes him the "real" one?
People believe in fake things all the time
My cousin believed in Santa untill he moved out of his moms house

Chloe
04-01-2013, 04:44 PM
The major difference was that Jesus Christ beat death and walked away from his grave. We have historical documentation of eye witnesses to this event. We have historical documentation of the miracles he did. He led a rebellion against sinful living not a rebellion against a sinnful government. In his revolt his followers changed the ideas of society not the rulers of a government.

I'm guessing that when you say "historical documentation" you mean the Christian Bible?

nic34
04-01-2013, 04:47 PM
The bible is not an account of history.

TheDictator
04-02-2013, 08:39 PM
I'm guessing that when you say "historical documentation" you mean the Christian Bible?

Not just only the Bible, there are over 20,000 ancient documents that speak about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the most documented person in history.

Examples: the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus writtings, Letter to the Magnesians, The Oracles of our Lord. Even some official Roman Government documents

TheDictator
04-02-2013, 08:56 PM
The bible is not an account of history.

I'm not sure what you mean by your statement, but the Bible is an accurate and reliable source of the accounts recorded in it.

Mister D
04-02-2013, 08:59 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by your statement, but the Bible is an accurate and reliable source of the accounts recorded in it.

Neither does he.

Chris
04-02-2013, 09:47 PM
Not just only the Bible, there are over 20,000 ancient documents that speak about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the most documented person in history.

Examples: the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus writtings, Letter to the Magnesians, The Oracles of our Lord. Even some official Roman Government documents

Over 20,000?

Can I ask on what basis you accept documentary evidence, and what basis reject? I mean, some claim ANCIENT DOCUMENTS IN PROOFS OF JESUS CHRIST IN INDIA (http://www.oocities.org/trueworldhistory/christ2.html) and Ancient Documents Claim Jesus Lived to Be 106 and Died in Japan (http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/ancient-documents-claim-jesus-lived-to-be-106-and-died-in-japan.html). Is the basis scientific? If so, what's the null hypothesis, iow, how would you falsify the hypothesis? Just curious. As I'd always thought it a matter of faith.

Common
04-02-2013, 09:53 PM
What about the people born WAYYY before Jesus that had the same story as him?

Can you give us a reference to make a determination.

Captain Obvious
04-02-2013, 10:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 12:17 PM
Over 20,000?

Can I ask on what basis you accept documentary evidence, and what basis reject? I mean, some claim ANCIENT DOCUMENTS IN PROOFS OF JESUS CHRIST IN INDIA (http://www.oocities.org/trueworldhistory/christ2.html) and Ancient Documents Claim Jesus Lived to Be 106 and Died in Japan (http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/ancient-documents-claim-jesus-lived-to-be-106-and-died-in-japan.html). Is the basis scientific? If so, what's the null hypothesis, iow, how would you falsify the hypothesis? Just curious. As I'd always thought it a matter of faith.

I did not say I accepted all of the documentation, but said there was over 20,000 ancient documents about Jesus Christ. More than any other ancient person of history.


The Early Christian Church and the Early Catholic Church had a standard for all the ancient documents ( this was called the canon )

66 documents met the all of the standards of the canon. 100's of documents that met almost all of the canon and a large group that met most of the canon. There were documents that did not meet any of the canon, but still had some historical value.

jillian
04-03-2013, 12:56 PM
Virtually all of them are post Christ, "copycat" messiahs.

there were a lot of pre-christ "messiahs", too. there were dozens who claimed the same at about the same time as jesus.

nic34
04-03-2013, 01:30 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by your statement, but the Bible is an accurate and reliable source of the accounts recorded in it.

Right. A reliable source of accounts (stories) recorded by non-historians.

jillian
04-03-2013, 01:46 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by your statement, but the Bible is an accurate and reliable source of the accounts recorded in it.

other than your faith, how could you say that after knowing what was done by constantine and the council of nicea?

there are a lot of religions. each believes it's holy book is the truth.

Mister D
04-03-2013, 02:09 PM
Right. A reliable source of accounts (stories) recorded by non-historians.

Kind of like Native American accounts (stories)? Oral of course. They were largely illiterate.

TNHarley
04-03-2013, 06:01 PM
Common I did

Chris
04-03-2013, 06:41 PM
Right. A reliable source of accounts (stories) recorded by non-historians.

DIctator's not claiming anything other that what was early on in Christianity determined canon for it.

What exactly makes a historian an authority?

TNHarley
04-03-2013, 06:59 PM
there were a lot of pre-christ "messiahs", too. there were dozens who claimed the same at about the same time as jesus.

The ones I listed earlier were hundreds-thousands of years before..

Mister D
04-03-2013, 07:00 PM
The ones I listed earlier were hundreds-thousands of years before..

The Jews didn't exist thousands of years before Christ.

Mister D
04-03-2013, 07:00 PM
Better still, what exactly makes a historian?

TNHarley
04-03-2013, 07:24 PM
The Jews didn't exist thousands of years before Christ.

I am talking about pre-Christ messiahs. It was all the same..

Mister D
04-03-2013, 07:26 PM
I am talking about pre-Christ messiahs. It was all the same..

You said something about hundreds and thousands of years. I was just telling you that the Jews were not a distinct group thousands of years before Christ.

TNHarley
04-03-2013, 07:31 PM
You said something about hundreds and thousands of years. I was just telling you that the Jews were not a distinct group thousands of years before Christ.

I know that, I was talking about people that many years before Jesus, was also a "messiah" Jews didn't have anything to do with it lol

Mister D
04-03-2013, 07:31 PM
Also, almost everyone on the Wiki list post dates Jesus of Nazareth. The rest are roughly contemporary.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 07:45 PM
Right. A reliable source of accounts (stories) recorded by non-historians.

The vast majority of ancient documents ( in all history ) were written by non-historians, so again I'm not sure what your point is.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 07:52 PM
other than your faith, how could you say that after knowing what was done by constantine and the council of nicea?

there are a lot of religions. each believes it's holy book is the truth.

Constantine and the Council of Nicea have nothing to do with the inerrancy of the Bible.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 07:55 PM
there are a lot of religions. each believes it's holy book is the truth.

There is only one Truth.

Chloe
04-03-2013, 07:59 PM
There is only one Truth.

Wouldn't you agree though that truth is relative? Truth in my head can be different from the truth in your head, right? I know that you believe that Jesus and the Christian Bible is the "truth," but how does that make your opinion more definitive than say mine, or someone else's? It is a matter of faith is it not?

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 08:19 PM
Wouldn't you agree though that truth is relative? Truth in my head can be different from the truth in your head, right? I know that you believe that Jesus and the Christian Bible is the "truth," but how does that make your opinion more definitive than say mine, or someone else's? It is a matter of faith is it not?

No, Truth is absolute. Truth is, it does not need us to agree with it. There is one truth and many falsehoods. I have respect for all opinions and believe that one has the right to have any opinion they want. I do believe that God will punish those who do not know the Truth.

Chloe
04-03-2013, 08:21 PM
No, Truth is absolute. Truth is, it does not need us to agree with it. There is one truth and many falsehoods. I have respect for all opinions and believe that one has the right to have any opinion they want. I do believe that God will punish those who do not know the Truth.

I'm assuming that "truth" means Jesus?

Peter1469
04-03-2013, 08:28 PM
Truths / law can be categorized into two types:

Malum in se (Latin) is something that by nature is evil. A universal truth.

Malum prohibitum (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Malum_prohibitum)is something that is wrong because society decides it is wrong.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 08:46 PM
I'm assuming that "truth" means Jesus?

Yes, the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Truth.

Chris
04-03-2013, 08:57 PM
No, Truth is absolute. Truth is, it does not need us to agree with it. There is one truth and many falsehoods. I have respect for all opinions and believe that one has the right to have any opinion they want. I do believe that God will punish those who do not know the Truth.

Exactly, truth must be absolute, for to be relative then one's truth cancels another's. Logical law of noncontradiction.

Chris
04-03-2013, 08:58 PM
I'm assuming that "truth" means Jesus?

Jesus is not a truth. That he was a man can be true, and is likely so by the historical record. That he was God cannot be true, it is a matter of faith.

Chloe
04-03-2013, 09:00 PM
Yes, the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Truth.

I can respect that but it's the christian bible that says that. I guess all that I am trying to say is that it is truth to you, but to someone else they may view it as just a good story mixed with history. I am not a christian, and while I acknowledge the truth that Jesus was a real person and lived and died, I don't acknowledge the relative truth that he is Godly or anything like that. I don't want to come across as questioning your faith or anything since that's not what I am trying to do here, but I guess I am just wanting to get the point across that truth is relative, especially when it comes to faith.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:02 PM
Yes, the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Truth.

That the Bible says that, that is says Jesus says that, is true. John 14:6.

That doesn't make the Bible true, that again is a matter of faith.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:22 PM
Chris,

Faith has nothing to do with whether something is true or not true. Either Christianity is true or it is not. My faith in Christianity has no bearing on the reality of truth.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:27 PM
Chris,

Faith has nothing to do with whether something is true or not true. Either Christianity is true or it is not. My faith in Christianity has no bearing on the reality of truth.

That's what I said. Faith has nothing to do with truth. In fact if you knew your faith was true you'd have no need for faith. Isn't faith the key to salvation?


Either Christianity is true or it is not.

False dichotomy. Besides, which Christianity is true, and how would you know?

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:28 PM
I can respect that but it's the christian bible that says that. I guess all that I am trying to say is that it is truth to you, but to someone else they may view it as just a good story mixed with history. I am not a christian, and while I acknowledge the truth that Jesus was a real person and lived and died, I don't acknowledge the relative truth that he is Godly or anything like that. I don't want to come across as questioning your faith or anything since that's not what I am trying to do here, but I guess I am just wanting to get the point across that truth is relative, especially when it comes to faith.

I understand, but disagree. I had a student some years ago the murdered someone and he believed he did nothing wrong. He had the same idea truth and morality are relative.

Chloe
04-03-2013, 09:30 PM
I understand, but disagree. I had a student some years ago the murdered someone and he believed he did nothing wrong. He had the same idea truth and morality are relative.

I think we may be talking about two different things. Murder is wrong in Judaism as well, so I'd be on your side with regards to that student.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:33 PM
False dichotomy. Besides, which Christianity is true, and how would you know?

So you believe in relative truth like chloe. Truth does not need us know it, to be truth.

zelmo1234
04-03-2013, 09:38 PM
Jesus is not a truth. That he was a man can be true, and is likely so by the historical record. That he was God cannot be true, it is a matter of faith.

Just because it has to be taken as a matter of faith doens not mean that it can't be true?

So in fact then if Jesus is the Christ, then he is the way, the Truth and the life! Taken on faith by his followeres yet the truth none the less?

Peter1469
04-03-2013, 09:40 PM
So you believe in relative truth like chloe. Truth does not need us know it, to be truth.

Every society (that I know of) considers murder to be wrong. However, justified homicide is not wrong. Societies set that justification level differently.

zelmo1234
04-03-2013, 09:40 PM
That's what I said. Faith has nothing to do with truth. In fact if you knew your faith was true you'd have no need for faith. Isn't faith the key to salvation?

False dichotomy. Besides, which Christianity is true, and how would you know?

Yes you could have total faith that 2 + 2 = 36 and be totally faithful and totally wrong! However you could have faith that 2+2=4 and you would still have faint and also have turth!

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:41 PM
So you believe in relative truth like chloe. Truth does not need us know it, to be truth.

I don't think even Chloe was talking about relative truth. Where do you get that from what I said? From the fact you posted a false dichotomy--that can't be true relatively or absolutely. From the fact there are many Christianities, which poses itself a relativistic problem?


Truth does not need us know it, to be truth.

Correct. But pure skepticism like that leads to a self contradiction, and that can't be true.


Are you sure you're not the one espousing relative truth? I think that was Chloe's point.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:41 PM
I think we may be talking about two different things. Murder is wrong in Judaism as well, so I'd be on your side with regards to that student.

Yes, Judaism and Christianity are almost the same, but it is the idea of relativism that makes murder not wrong to some. Under relativism I could do any thing I want and it would not be wrong if I want it to be.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:43 PM
Just because it has to be taken as a matter of faith doens not mean that it can't be true?

So in fact then if Jesus is the Christ, then he is the way, the Truth and the life! Taken on faith by his followeres yet the truth none the less?


Just because it has to be taken as a matter of faith doens not mean that it can't be true?

No. But how would you know it?


Taken on faith by his followeres yet the truth none the less?

It could be. We cannot know.


While we're at it, we cannot know God.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:44 PM
Every society (that I know of) considers murder to be wrong. However, justified homicide is not wrong. Societies set that justification level differently.

But the principle behind different implementations of justice are the same. The fact it has to be justified in a reasonable way is true.

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:45 PM
Just because it has to be taken as a matter of faith doens not mean that it can't be true?

So in fact then if Jesus is the Christ, then he is the way, the Truth and the life! Taken on faith by his followeres yet the truth none the less?

Well said thank you.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:46 PM
Yes you could have total faith that 2 + 2 = 36 and be totally faithful and totally wrong! However you could have faith that 2+2=4 and you would still have faint and also have turth!

2+2=36 is demonstrably false and 2+2=4 is demonstrably true.



But here's one for you. Can God make what true false? Careful.

Captain Obvious
04-03-2013, 09:48 PM
wot

zelmo1234
04-03-2013, 09:50 PM
No. But how would you know it?



It could be. We cannot know.


While we're at it, we cannot know God.

If the soul is eternal, then of course we will know, and if what we christians take on faith is true, we will at that point be forgiven and taken into heaven to live with Jesus, and other fellow believers! Non Believers will know as well as they are judged by the one that they did not have faith in.

So if I am right then I will know and so will every other soul that ever lived. As it is written that every eye shal see and every knee shal bow!

Now if I am wrong, then Yes I will never know this!

As far as can we ever know God, on this side of heaven the answer is NO! but when we get to paridise it is told that what we know now in part we will know then in full. So this is possible too!

So we know and take on faith that if we drive through this 45 mile per hour area at 60 mph that some day we will get a ticket. Yet day after day goes by and we do not get a ticket, Does the fact that we do not have a ticket, void the truth that we were in fact speeding?

TheDictator
04-03-2013, 09:56 PM
Every society (that I know of) considers murder to be wrong. However, justified homicide is not wrong. Societies set that justification level differently.

Well as a part time Missionary I have been to places where murder was not against the law. Also, eating people was not also. It was not against the law to kill Jews in Germany in the early 1940's. A real good example of relative truth.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:57 PM
If the soul is eternal, then of course we will know, and if what we christians take on faith is true, we will at that point be forgiven and taken into heaven to live with Jesus, and other fellow believers! Non Believers will know as well as they are judged by the one that they did not have faith in.

So if I am right then I will know and so will every other soul that ever lived. As it is written that every eye shal see and every knee shal bow!

Now if I am wrong, then Yes I will never know this!

As far as can we ever know God, on this side of heaven the answer is NO! but when we get to paridise it is told that what we know now in part we will know then in full. So this is possible too!

So we know and take on faith that if we drive through this 45 mile per hour area at 60 mph that some day we will get a ticket. Yet day after day goes by and we do not get a ticket, Does the fact that we do not have a ticket, void the truth that we were in fact speeding?


(A) If the soul is eternal, (B) then of course we will know

You can't leap from (A) a hypothetical to (B) a factual. Better stated "If the soul is eternal, then of course we would know". Ditto the rest of that paragraph. It's all hypothetical. The truth of one unknown cannot be determined by another unknown.

What is your dichotomy is false? What if it has nothing at all to do with anything? What if you're partial correct and partially wrong?


So we know and take on faith that if we drive through this 45 mile per hour area at 60 mph that some day we will get a ticket.

Not a matter of faith, just a simple probability.

Chloe
04-03-2013, 09:58 PM
If the soul is eternal, then of course we will know, and if what we christians take on faith is true, we will at that point be forgiven and taken into heaven to live with Jesus, and other fellow believers! Non Believers will know as well as they are judged by the one that they did not have faith in.

So if I am right then I will know and so will every other soul that ever lived. As it is written that every eye shal see and every knee shal bow!

Now if I am wrong, then Yes I will never know this!

As far as can we ever know God, on this side of heaven the answer is NO! but when we get to paridise it is told that what we know now in part we will know then in full. So this is possible too!

So we know and take on faith that if we drive through this 45 mile per hour area at 60 mph that some day we will get a ticket. Yet day after day goes by and we do not get a ticket, Does the fact that we do not have a ticket, void the truth that we were in fact speeding?

I know this is sort of off topic but i've never liked the idea that people think that I am going to burn in hell or something like that just because I am not a christian and don't believe that Jesus is God. I've never understood why there should be that much fear around something that is supposed to be about love and faith. I don't really believe in "hell" but I certainly don't like being told that i'm going there. The afterlife is something that none of us can be certain about until we die. Focus on living life the best that you can and when you die if God exists then it will be up to him at that point as to what happens.

Chris
04-03-2013, 09:59 PM
Well as a part time Missionary I have been to places where murder was not against the law. Also, eating people was not also. It was not against the law to kill Jews in Germany in the early 1940's. A real good example of relative truth.

Posited law is relative. I doubt man is capable of positing true moral law. If men were angels, you know.