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Kindness
04-02-2013, 06:58 AM
Hi! I just thought I'd stop in and introduce myself before jumping in and participating. I'm just a boring guy from the small-town Midwest, with an interest in winter sports, outdoor activities, reading, and world events. Politically speaking, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist with a strong respect for human dignity and economic justice.

I'm a "refugee" from Debate Politics, where I was banned for dubious / mistaken reasons (I was accused of being a duplicate account, which was not the case at all). I look forward to participating here. :)

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 07:03 AM
Third time I have ever heard "anarcho-syndicalist" used lol
Welcome!

Kindness
04-02-2013, 07:11 AM
Thanks!

Anarcho-syndicalism is a political system where there is no state (defined as a formal institution, vested with sovereignty, that has the sole monopoly on violence) and popular sovereignty is exercised and productive activity is planned through trade unions (or one big union, like the IWW) and/or worker's councils / "soviets." It's sometimes considered a form of anarcho-communism, because it calls for a classless, stateless, anti-capitalist society.

Guerilla
04-02-2013, 07:26 AM
Whooo! A Fellow Anarcho-syndicalist! Welcome!!!

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 07:26 AM
Yea, I know what it is..
Term is rare
Wouldnt that term be redundant anyways?
Isnt the goal of communism state-less, class-less and to where the people are slaves to the state?

Kindness
04-02-2013, 07:30 AM
Yea, I know what it is..

Sorry about that.

Many people don't know, so I thought I'd explain for the benefit of those that didn't.



Isnt the goal of communism state-less, class-less and to where the people are slaves to the state?

Communism isn't about making people slaves to the state, it is and has always been about establishing a stateless society. The Bolshevik perversion of communism -- which, sadly, became the most popular form during the 20th century -- twisted this vision into making individuals and communities slaves of the state. I'm as much an anti-Bolshevik as any red-blooded conservative, perhaps even more so, because I'm an advocate of true communism and they committed atrocities under the same name.


Whooo! A Fellow Anarcho-syndicalist! Welcome!!!

Thanks, comrade! :)

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 07:42 AM
Don't communists always hope for a proletariat society?

Santa's Little Helper
04-02-2013, 07:43 AM
Hi! I just thought I'd stop in and introduce myself before jumping in and participating. I'm just a boring guy from the small-town Midwest, with an interest in winter sports, outdoor activities, reading, and world events. Politically speaking, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist with a strong respect for human dignity and economic justice.

I'm a "refugee" from Debate Politics, where I was banned for dubious / mistaken reasons (I was accused of being a duplicate account, which was not the case at all). I look forward to participating here. :)


Welcome fellow refugee I was banned from Americas Political Chatroom and came here although I come for the beer and popcorn but i must say peoplw here are far more intelligent

Kindness
04-02-2013, 07:50 AM
Don't communists always hope for a proletariat society?

Communists believe that the proletariat should take control of the means of production, yes, but the goal of this isn't to establish proletarian hegemony, but to create a system where resources are allocated based on human need, which will eliminate all classes, including the proletariat. "From each according to her ability, to each according to her need" is the maxim of communism.

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 07:57 AM
Basically to turn everyone into a slave to the state
Gotcha
And wouldnt that be a proletariat state?
No one having any wealth

Kindness
04-02-2013, 08:00 AM
Basically to turn everyone into a slave to the state

How can someone be a slave to the state if there is no state?



And wouldnt that be a proletariat state?

No, it would be a decentralized, federal system of direct democracy expressed through unions and worker's councils.



No one having any wealth

Everyone would have wealth in more-or-less equal proportions. Wealth is not a zero-sum game, we can all be winners.

KC
04-02-2013, 08:05 AM
Welcome to the forums, kindness! You seem like a pretty bright guy, looking forward to having some discussion. I'm a little bit libertarian personally, but I think the philosophy of anarcho-syndicalism works well on a small scale, such as it does for the gaming company Valve. The company is run without bosses, deadlines or any sort of hierarchy, and all projects are developed through cooperation between the highly selected employees.



Communists believe that the proletariat should take control of the means of production, yes, but the goal of this isn't to establish proletarian hegemony, but to create a system where resources are allocated based on human need, which will eliminate all classes, including the proletariat. "From each according to her ability, to each according to her need" is the maxim of communism.

It is based on the false assumption that the value of a product is worth the value of the labor put into the product, rather than the price system based on equilibrium.

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 08:10 AM
How can someone be a slave to the state if there is no state?





So absolutelty no one in charge? NO ONE?

Kindness
04-02-2013, 08:15 AM
Welcome to the forums, kindness! You seem like a pretty bright guy, looking forward to having some discussion.

Thanks!


It is based on the false assumption that the value of a product is worth the value of the labor put into the product, rather than the price system based on equilibrium.

That's probably the best criticism of communism out there, but I still don't think it's a fatal flaw. Yes, within our current economic system the labor theory of value doesn't make much sense, as economic value is largely a function of demand, not labor.

Twenty-first century communists, however, appeal to a different form of value: use value, i.e., the amount of practical use a product, good, or service has to us as humans. For example, clothing has a use value, because one can wear clothes, housing has a use value, as people need shelter, and so on. On the other hand, many things that have economic value (such as marketing, advertising, brand equity) have zero use value and are simply glorified waste (one does not need advertising to survive).

Unlike economic value, which is subjective and based on market forces, use value is rooted in human need and does derive entirely from labor. Therefore, communism is still justified, as use value is produced solely by labor.

Kindness
04-02-2013, 08:18 AM
So absolutelty no one in charge? NO ONE?

Yes, that's what "anarchy" means -- no hierarchy. Of course, it isn't really accurate to describe it as 'no one in charge,' it's more like everyone is in charge. Each person governs herself, and each community collectively governs itself. Global issues are decided by a federal council of members sent directly from each community, but even that council is advisory and doesn't have final authority.

KC
04-02-2013, 08:20 AM
Thanks!



That's probably the best criticism of communism out there, but I still don't think it's a fatal flaw. Yes, within our current economic system the labor theory of value doesn't make much sense, as economic value is largely a function of demand, not labor.

Twenty-first century communists, however, appeal to a different form of value: use value, i.e., the amount of practical use a product, good, or service has to us as humans. For example, clothing has a use value, because one can wear clothes, housing has a use value, as people need shelter, and so on. On the other hand, many things that have economic value (such as marketing, advertising, brand equity) have zero use value and are simply glorified waste (one does not need advertising to survive).

Unlike economic value, which is subjective and based on market forces, use value is rooted in human need and does derive entirely from labor. Therefore, communism is still justified, as use value is produced solely by labor.

Without the price system then how is information about value shared on a large scale? There are problems with information in society, which is why economies cannot be planned. I don't think you are advocate planning though, that doesn't seem like an anarcho syndicalists argument. So without the price system, how would information about value and demand be relayed. How would suppliers know how much to produce?

nic34
04-02-2013, 08:53 AM
Yes, that's what "anarchy" means -- no hierarchy. Of course, it isn't really accurate to describe it as 'no one in charge,' it's more like everyone is in charge. Each person governs herself, and each community collectively governs itself. Global issues are decided by a federal council of members sent directly from each community, but even that council is advisory and doesn't have final authority.

Welcome kindness.

Exactly in how many of today's nation states is a system you advocate actually functioning?

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 09:06 AM
Welcome kindness.

Exactly in how many of today's nation states is a system you advocate actually functioning?

Good question
It seems to be "out-dated"
There is still a little movement, but I believe it was outed in the early 1900's(maybe middle?) and after WW2 in Europe
Didnt last very long
Believe it was replaced by communism and working class gains
I dont see how that "ideology" (if you want to call it that) could keep up with technology and civilized economics

TNHarley
04-02-2013, 09:10 AM
I just know a little about it
Havent even heard the term in years, and im not old lol
So if I am wrong, I would love to know

Private Pickle
04-02-2013, 09:20 AM
Communists believe that the proletariat should take control of the means of production, yes, but the goal of this isn't to establish proletarian hegemony, but to create a system where resources are allocated based on human need, which will eliminate all classes, including the proletariat. "From each according to her ability, to each according to her need" is the maxim of communism.

Except for the class that controls what and how much they hand out... Never fails... This type of political ideology completely ignores human nature...

Common
04-02-2013, 09:29 AM
Sorry about that.

Many people don't know, so I thought I'd explain for the benefit of those that didn't.



Communism isn't about making people slaves to the state, it is and has always been about establishing a stateless society. The Bolshevik perversion of communism -- which, sadly, became the most popular form during the 20th century -- twisted this vision into making individuals and communities slaves of the state. I'm as much an anti-Bolshevik as any red-blooded conservative, perhaps even more so, because I'm an advocate of true communism and they committed atrocities under the same name.



Thanks, comrade! :)

I didnt know what it was and its not my cup of tea at all, but welcome to the forum.

Adelaide
04-02-2013, 12:46 PM
Welcome to the forum! :)

Conley
04-02-2013, 01:02 PM
Welcome to the forums, kindness! You seem like a pretty bright guy, looking forward to having some discussion. I'm a little bit libertarian personally, but I think the philosophy of anarcho-syndicalism works well on a small scale, such as it does for the gaming company Valve. The company is run without bosses, deadlines or any sort of hierarchy, and all projects are developed through cooperation between the highly selected employees.

Kind of sounds like the system of modding and V.I.P.s we've got here...and sometimes it really does seem like anarchy :grin:

Welcome to the site Kindness!

KC
04-02-2013, 02:14 PM
Kind of sounds like the system of modding and V.I.P.s we've got here...and sometimes it really does seem like anarchy :grin:

It's sort of like that, but the fact that we have a hierarchy (with Admin on top, in the VIP room the rest of us equal) would be the main difference.

Dr. Who
04-02-2013, 04:57 PM
Welcome Kindness.

Dr. Who
04-02-2013, 04:58 PM
I'm a "refugee" from Debate Politics, where I was banned for dubious / mistaken reasons (I was accused of being a duplicate account, which was not the case at all). I look forward to participating here. :)
Just curious, but were you sharing a modem with others or posting from a wi fi zone?

Conley
04-02-2013, 05:13 PM
It's sort of like that, but the fact that we have a hierarchy (with Admin on top, in the VIP room the rest of us equal) would be the main difference.

So Admin is Gaben?? :shocked:

KC
04-02-2013, 05:44 PM
So Admin is Gaben?? :shocked:

Oh God no.

Captain Obvious
04-02-2013, 06:24 PM
Welcome Kindness, glad you're here.

What the fuck is Gaben?

Conley
04-02-2013, 06:55 PM
Creator of awesomesauce like Halflife 1 and Halflife 2 but sadly no Halflife 3 :angry:

Captain Obvious
04-02-2013, 07:04 PM
That's meshuggah.

Kindness
04-02-2013, 07:22 PM
Just curious, but were you sharing a modem with others or posting from a wi fi zone?

Yes, I was in Chicago for a conference last week, and that was probably where my IP got mixed up with the banned member.

Conley
04-02-2013, 07:26 PM
That's harsh but their loss is our gain

:afro:

Kindness
04-02-2013, 07:30 PM
Thanks :).

Captain Obvious
04-02-2013, 07:31 PM
Yes, I was in Chicago for a conference last week, and that was probably where my IP got mixed up with the banned member.

There's a sex joke in there and goddammit I can't come up with it.

Conley
04-02-2013, 07:32 PM
First time for everything I guess...

Conley
04-02-2013, 07:38 PM
...I thought you were gonna go with DP standing for double penetration and not debate politics, but that would be crass!

Dr. Who
04-02-2013, 08:16 PM
Yes, I was in Chicago for a conference last week, and that was probably where my IP got mixed up with the banned member.
Some sites are draconian. You are welcome here.

Kindness
04-02-2013, 10:16 PM
Without the price system then how is information about value shared on a large scale?

Value in a moneyless system is dependent on both utility and need. A car, for instance, would be valued based on its current usefulness and society's need for it. If people have enough cars, then there would be no need to produce more cars.


There are problems with information in society, which is why economies cannot be planned. I don't think you are advocate planning though, that doesn't seem like an anarcho syndicalists argument.

You're correct, I don't advocate for central economic planning. I support a semi-planned economy where workers themselves decide what and how much to produce democratically.