Looky here. This looks like a cozy rabbit hole. [Archive]

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:26 PM

I promise there is a point to my asking the question, and it's worth considering to find where this goes...as absurd as it may seem. I had this same conversation last night with a good friend, and there were some points that we threw back and forth that really blew both our minds.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:29 PM

France

How so?

Go through the anwer cards from Trivial Pursuits.

When in doubt, Paris is the best guess.

Silly game, silly question, silly answer.

Fair enough, I might agree. Why did I ask it then?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/12480-Looky-here-This-looks-like-a-cozy-rabbit-hole?p=272837&viewfull=1#post272837

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:34 PM

I love the Beatles, and if I felt forced to fit a circle into a square hole I would answer similarly to you here. Unfortunately, it's not a sufficient answer...

...but if you keep trying and see where it goes, you might learn something about why you answered the way you did. :wink:

Mister D

04-22-2013, 01:35 PM

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 22:13

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:38 PM

I Hate You Bitch

~z-ro~

Ain't "progess" beautiful?

Surprisingly, you hit something here. Love and hate, and understanding what both are. Have you ever felt such "hate" for something that you can't leave it alone?

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:42 PM

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 22:13

Thanks D! I was waiting for something like this, religion ties in beautifully with this discussion.

Revelation 22:13 has some astonishing implications, and it's one of those verses that often sticks out to me. What relevance does it have to our existence?

Mister D

04-22-2013, 01:48 PM

Thanks D! I was waiting for something like this, religion ties in beautifully with this discussion.

Revelation 22:13 has some astonishing implications, and it's one of those verses that often sticks out to me. What relevance does it have to our existence?

If one believes that God is the ground of all Being I can't imagine what could be more relevant to our existence.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 01:59 PM

If one believes that God is the ground of all Being I can't imagine what could be more relevant to our existence.

There is an obvious gap that comes between people when we share our beliefs, and it is extremely uncomfortable not to have the same consensus as others who are obviously as intelligent and capable of understanding our world as you are. Why is that? What is capable of dividing the perceptions of like-minded people about the same, distinct world they both inhabit?

04-22-2013, 02:01 PM

How could you phrase one answer that would resolve every imaginable question?

"I don't know"

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:05 PM

"I don't know"

That's a very honest answer. It could be the most fitting conclusion. Truth is, I don't know either...but the answer bugs me. The question is still there, laughing at me. The answer has enormous integrity, but it doesn't bring closure. Is there something that could bring closure?

04-22-2013, 02:11 PM

That's a very honest answer. It could be the most fitting conclusion. Truth is, I don't know either...but the answer bugs me. The question is still there, laughing at me. The answer has enormous integrity, but it doesn't bring closure. Is there something that could bring closure?

Answer the questions you can and for the rest of them answer them to the best of your ability. Closure is a good thing, but it's even more exciting to keep searching for the answers.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:14 PM

It may seem like this is going all over the place, but this is all good shit and there is a way to tie everything in that has been posted so far. I have a much better understanding and respect for religion after having this discussion with another agnostic last night, as well as slightly better understanding of....well...everything. It requires more exploring though, I can't just relay the outcome of my discussion because it will not make any sense unless you engage the discussion, so I'm not trying to torture people. I promise. There's a method to the madness, so to speak.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:25 PM

Answer the questions you can and for the rest of them answer them to the best of your ability. Closure is a good thing, but it's even more exciting to keep searching for the answers.

I agree, again. But let's keep exploring, and keep trying to answer the question to the best of our ability. Why does it seem some questions are so hard to resolve...like say, a paradox? It seems there may not be any problem with us understanding HOW to resolve the question, but understanding the question itself, what it is, what it means, the relevance, why we can't find a resolution...agree?

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:44 PM

For instance, we know how to calculate pi. "The number pi is a mathematical constant that is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, and is approximately equal to 3.14159" (Wikipedia) It is such an important calculation in our industrial, productive world that the significance of it goes beyond just a mathematical curiosity. It is also an irrational number (which means that it cannot be expressed exactly). We see that it obviously works, and we know approximately what it is, and we can calculate it for a long time to define it better...but never precisely. Why does that seem to disagree with how perfect and precise it seems in a mathematical perspective?

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:54 PM

Have I lost you guys? This isn't really fun for people who don't like critical thinking, because where it leads can really open up cans of worms that can change your perspective...and that's uncomfortable for many people who are scared it will change them for the worse somehow. But if you're curious, and if you control your thoughts instead of them you, have faith that it will enlighten you. :smiley:

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 02:57 PM

If one believes that God is the ground of all Being I can't imagine what could be more relevant to our existence.

*COUGH, COUGH* ...

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/12480-Looky-here-This-looks-like-a-cozy-rabbit-hole?p=272865&viewfull=1#post272865 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/12480-Looky-here-This-looks-like-a-cozy-rabbit-hole?p=272865&viewfull=1#post272865)

Mister D

04-22-2013, 03:10 PM

There is an obvious gap that comes between people when we share our beliefs, and it is extremely uncomfortable not to have the same consensus as others who are obviously as intelligent and capable of understanding our world as you are. Why is that? What is capable of dividing the perceptions of like-minded people about the same, distinct world they both inhabit?

Relax, dude. I'm working, you know! :smiley:

Obviously I'm a Christian but I chose not to speak in specifically Christian terms for precisely that reason.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 03:47 PM

Relax, dude. I'm working, you know! :smiley:

Obviously I'm a Christian but I chose not to speak in specifically Christian terms for precisely that reason.

You've heard me say I'm a recovering Catholic, and I can confidently say now that I am a recovering Atheist as well. If it makes you feel better, I would be just as comfortable calling myself a Christian again as well as agnostic. I have alot to thank religion for in my "journey." Curiously, it was the virtues of truth and honesty instilled on me which led me "astray..." but there is a really divine elegance to my path that comes full circle. I can understand now, I think, what religion is and why it serves us. It was easy for me to discuss this topic with somebody else who doesn't have "faith" (we all misunderstand faith a great deal) but I think there's alot more people can understand about their faith and what compels all our values without contradicting their beliefs and compromising their religion. It's not about denying anything, as my mistake was, just asking what it is and why. If God had a secret, I'm sure he would have the love and humor to see how crazy it drives us to try to understand.

04-22-2013, 04:13 PM

I agree, again. But let's keep exploring, and keep trying to answer the question to the best of our ability. Why does it seem some questions are so hard to resolve...like say, a paradox? It seems there may not be any problem with us understanding HOW to resolve the question, but understanding the question itself, what it is, what it means, the relevance, why we can't find a resolution...agree?

I agree. It depends on what the question is. Asking the right question is more important than finding the answer. If your answers addresses a question that didn't need resolving in the first place, or that led you to the wrong conclusion, it is worth far less than if you asked the right question and got further along, but without having it completely resolved.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 04:34 PM

There is a considerable difference between knowing something and understanding it. Anybody can be told or taught things, and they can certainly toil to find out if there is truth to it--and they will either give up and be forced to accept or reject it without understanding it, or they will waste their lives trying to find any solid proof--which STILL forces them to accept or reject it without understanding it.

There is a certain faith to everything, and it doesn't matter what you believe or what you think you know. Physicists even have to have faith. It serves the same purpose for everybody, but I'm afraid that faith is not serving us to its full potential these days, and we need it now more than ever.

So...

How could you phrase an answer that can resolve every imaginable question? There is a way of UNDERSTANDING this question without needing to prove it. First of all, if you can't answer it...don't. Ask more questions instead. "Why the need to ask it in the first place? Is it critical to 'know' the answer? _______________? ______________?"

Hint: If I lost you, forget the damn question. What does faith have anything to do with this? What does understanding have to do with this? How do they work together, and how do they affect eachother? Why are both important, despite being almost contradictory?

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 04:36 PM

I agree. It depends on what the question is. Asking the right question is more important than finding the answer. If your answers addresses a question that didn't need resolving in the first place, or that led you to the wrong conclusion, it is worth far less than if you asked the right question and got further along, but without having it completely resolved.

Bingo. But every question can lead to more understanding despite their being good, bad, unanswerable, etc.

04-22-2013, 04:38 PM

Bingo. But every question can lead to more understanding despite their being good, bad, unanswerable, etc.

Correct. It all depends on what your intentions are. Certainly it's more important to ask the right question when you desire a specific outcome, but if you simply want to increase your understanding then each question is valuable and worth answering.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 04:42 PM

Correct. It all depends on what your intentions are. Certainly it's more important to ask the right question when you desire a specific outcome, but if you simply want to increase your understanding then each question is valuable and worth answering.

Why do we yearn for understanding?

Greenridgeman

04-22-2013, 04:49 PM

Surprisingly, you hit something here. Love and hate, and understanding what both are. Have you ever felt such "hate" for something that you can't leave it alone?

Yeah, I've loved the bitch I hated.

Long ago, in a planet far away.......................!

Have an angel now.

04-22-2013, 04:49 PM

Why do we yearn for understanding?

Now that's an interesting question. I take a teleological view similar to Kant, where our natural capacities for reason are "destined to develop in completely and in conformity with their end." In this view our desire for understanding is sort of an based on an innate drive to exercise our rational capacities.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 05:39 PM

This is something I just thought of that might help visualize my point with faith and understanding. This could sort of let you imagine how they can appear to be both integral or "part" of our perceptions, yet seem to oppose each other in how they work.

2412

This is a Mobius Strip. Cut one long piece of paper, make one half-twist at one end, then tape them together in a loop.

The interesting thing about this "surface" (it is supposed to represent a geometric figure having one surface and one boundary component) is that there outwardly appears to be two sides to its shape. After all, there are two sides of paper...but if you place a dot and trace its entire length until you meet the dot again, you will realize that the line appears on "both sides" indicating that it is indeed one continuous side. Can we relate faith and understanding to this? I think so, because at some level I think they are one in the same...yet serve two critical and (seemingly) opposite functions. This image doesn't show how they are related to each other, but the shape can prove how different perceptions of the same thing can appear opposite to us and confuse us.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 05:40 PM

BELIEF AND KNOWLEDGE

Belief is to faith as knowledge is to understanding...yet they are very different structures. Belief and knowledge are complete and utter bullshit and poison as far as our misuse of them goes. They are entirely opposed to the way faith and understanding serves us, yet we easily confuse their structures with each other when we judge our perceptions. They really are just byproducts of faith and understanding, and occur accordingly to the notion that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction." They differ in their intentions. Belief and knowledge are biased, in terms of how we use them. Everybody has a safe perception of their world which they want to protect (and that is GOOD) and so they will amp up their ego and confidence of that perception at times in order to do so. That is when we stop letting the outside world inspire us and we turn on auto-pilot. Faith becomes belief and understanding becomes knowledge, and we lose the integrity of both in order to preserve the precious perception that is there, and defines who we are. We all do it. We all have things we want to believe and we think we know...but somewhere that voice tells us we're not honest in that perception because it is influenced by what's comfortable, instead of inspired by reality.

spunkloaf

04-22-2013, 06:01 PM

Now that's an interesting question. I take a teleological view similar to Kant, where our natural capacities for reason are "destined to develop in completely and in conformity with their end." In this view our desire for understanding is sort of an based on an innate drive to exercise our rational capacities.

I had a great discussion last night about this, and we both reached a point where we figured out how the inquisitive mechanism self-manifests in our minds independent of the outside world...and because we were on a deep level of discussion about reality and perception, it really blew our minds how either "truth" is fake, or whether reality itself is "fake"....briefly touching the understanding of the paradox left a couple of open jaws and long stares into nowhere. :laugh: We totally let our perceptions of reality wander for a bit. Doing such a thing requires faith that you won't lose reality's grip on you (or your grip on it....)