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JimH52
06-07-2013, 10:34 AM
They are struggling with how to handle the phone surveillance issues coming up. Bush started them and Obama has continued them. Most elected officials support them. So they have to pull out some old tape on Obama criticizing them when he was a Senator, as he should have. That is all they have...poor FOX...:huh20:

Chris
06-07-2013, 10:35 AM
Then why do you watch it, jim?

Chris
06-07-2013, 10:36 AM
Here's what Obama has said in the past:

NSA's Verizon surveillance: how the White House tramples our constitution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/07/nsa-verizon-surveillance-constitution), written by Rand Paul:


In December 2007, then-Senator Barack Obama joined then-Senator Chris Dodd in threatening to filibuster the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa). Senator Obama opposed provisions granting retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that shared private client information with the government. His office released a statement:


"Granting such immunity undermines the constitutional protections Americans trust the Congress to protect. Senator Obama supports a filibuster of this bill …"

Senator Obama was right. Had I been in the Senate, I would've voted with him. I've even filibustered myself over civil liberties issues I believe are important.

Later, supporting an amendment that he believed repealed retroactive immunity from Fisa, Senator Obama said in February 2008:


"We can give our intelligence and law enforcement community the powers they need to track down and take out terrorists without undermining our commitment to the rule of law, or our basic rights and liberties."

Senator Obama in 2007 was rightly concerned that telecommunications companies might get away with sharing clients' private information without legal scrutiny. This week, we learned that the president's National Security Agency compelled Verizon to hand over all of its client data records.

Senator Obama in 2008 wanted to track potential terrorist activity "without undermining our commitment to the rule of law, or our basic rights and liberties". Today, President Obama undermines the rule of law, basic rights and core liberties – all in the name of tracking terrorists.

There is always a balance between security and liberty and the American tradition has long been to err on the side of liberty. America's founders feared a government powerful enough to commit unreasonable searches and seizures and crafted a constitution designed to protect citizens' privacy.

Under this administration, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has targeted political dissidents, the Department of Justice has seized reporters' phone records, and now we've learned the NSA seized an unlimited amount of Verizon's client data. Just when you think it can't get any worse under this president, it does. This is an all-out assault on the constitution. These actions are unacceptable under any president, Democrat or Republican.

I can remember well a Senator Obama who joined the Democratic chorus against the warrantless wiretapping of the Bush administration. Now, that chorus has gone mute. The Guardian's Glenn Greenwald has noted what he sees as "a defining attribute of the Obama legacy: the transformation of what was until recently a symbol of rightwing radicalism – warrantless eavesdropping – into meekly accepted bipartisan consensus."

Not every Republican or Democrat is part of that consensus. When the Senate rushed through a last-minute extension of the Fisa Amendments Act over the holidays late last year, Senator Mike Lee (Republican, Utah) and I offered an amendment requiring stronger protections on business records that would've prohibited precisely the kind of data-mining the Verizon case has revealed. Senator Ron Wyden (Democrat, Oregon) introduced an amendment to require estimates from intelligence agencies of how many Americans were being surveilled. Both these measures were voted down.

Just last month, I introduced the Fourth Amendment Preservation and Protection Act, which if enacted would've protected Americans from exactly the kind of abuses we've seen recently. It was also voted down.

On Thursday, I announced my Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013, which ensures that no government agency can search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause. We shall see how many join me in supporting a part of the Bill of Rights that everyone in Congress already took an oath to uphold.

If the president and Congress would simply obey the fourth amendment, this new shocking revelation that the government is now spying on citizens' phone data en masse would never have happened. That I have to keep reintroducing the fourth amendment – and that a majority of senators keep voting against it – is a good reflection of the arrogance that dominates Washington.

During my filibuster, I quoted Glenn Greenwald, who wrote:


"There is a theoretical framework being built that posits that the US government has unlimited power. When it comes to any kind of threats it perceives, it makes the judgment to take whatever action against them that it warrants without any constraints or limitations of any kind."

If the seizure and surveillance of Americans' phone records – across the board and with little to no discrimination – is now considered a legitimate security precaution, there is literally no protection of any kind guaranteed anymore to American citizens. In their actions, more outrageous and numerous by the day, this administration continues to treat the US constitution as a dead letter.

Senator Obama said of President Bush and Fisa in 2008:


"We must reaffirm that no one in this country is above the law."

No one in America should be above the law. Including this president.

JimH52
06-07-2013, 10:54 AM
Approved by Congress

Mister D
06-07-2013, 10:55 AM
Jim, you and Cigar seem to be the biggest fans of Fox on this forum.

Chris
06-07-2013, 11:19 AM
Approved by Congress

What, Fox news, or Obama's once disdain for what he now practices?

GrassrootsConservative
06-07-2013, 11:22 AM
They are struggling with how to handle the phone surveillance issues coming up. Bush started them and Obama has continued them. Most elected officials support them. So they have to pull out some old tape on Obama criticizing them when he was a Senator, as he should have. That is all they have...poor FOX...:huh20:

Do you need a tissue?

Mainecoons
06-07-2013, 11:47 AM
Jim, you and Cigar seem to be the biggest fans of Fox on this forum.

:rofl:

Mainecoons
06-07-2013, 11:48 AM
If the Kochs succeed in buying all those newspapers, Jim is going to have to start wearing depends. :rofl:

JimH52
06-07-2013, 12:16 PM
Then why do you watch it, jim?

The Humor Factor...:icon_bounce:

JimH52
06-07-2013, 12:17 PM
If the Kochs succeed in buying all those newspapers, Jim is going to have to start wearing depends. :rofl:

The old men will die before they can buy enough to change the perception of the GOP, which is dismal.

jillian
06-07-2013, 12:29 PM
Here's what Obama has said in the past:

NSA's Verizon surveillance: how the White House tramples our constitution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/07/nsa-verizon-surveillance-constitution), written by Rand Paul:

how about you address jim's point... which is that the right is flummoxed on this b/c the program started under bush?

also, the neocons like this b/c they see it as part of the war on terror?

rand paul says what he always says...

jillian
06-07-2013, 12:31 PM
If the Kochs succeed in buying all those newspapers, Jim is going to have to start wearing depends. :rofl:

so you like the idea of corporatist propagandists being the only source of "news"?

yeah, why bother with that nasty little first amendment.

Micketto
06-07-2013, 12:37 PM
They are struggling with how to handle the phone surveillance issues coming up.

Struggling? I assume you have a link ?

Or is this just another of your attempts to insult FOX news by making things up ?

Chris
06-07-2013, 01:24 PM
how about you address jim's point... which is that the right is flummoxed on this b/c the program started under bush?

also, the neocons like this b/c they see it as part of the war on terror?

rand paul says what he always says...

Because he's arguing a straw man, as you do, the right is not flummoxed but criticized this under Bush, we've had this discussion already, why beat around the Bush all the time?

Neocons are liberals, I'd expect them to like this.


rand paul says what he always says.

Now that's deep, it is what it is, I am what I am.

Chris
06-07-2013, 01:28 PM
so you like the idea of corporatist propagandists being the only source of "news"?

yeah, why bother with that nasty little first amendment.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/138442/corporatism:


corporatism, Italian corporativismo, also called corporativism, the theory and practice of organizing society into “corporations” subordinate to the state. According to corporatist theory, workers and employers would be organized into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and controlling to a large extent the persons and activities within their jurisdiction. However, as the “corporate state” was put into effect in fascist Italy between World Wars I and II, it reflected the will of the country’s dictator, Benito Mussolini, rather than the adjusted interests of economic groups.

Maine day in day out posts against your corporatism, jill.

Peter1469
06-07-2013, 06:35 PM
The 4th Amendment is the 4th Amendment regardless of which party is in power- at least to people with principle.

Common
06-07-2013, 09:10 PM
If you watch Fox and MSNBC and read they NYTs and WSJ and the washington times legitimate sources from both sides thats the only way you can even remotely get the truth.
If you just watch fox and go to right wing links from drudge you are going to be wrong more than not about what you think is right. The same applies of you just watch MSNBC.
I truly try to get both viewpoints glaze over the obvious bias and try to get to somewhat of the real deal

I ve told libertarians on forums for along time. Papa Ron and Kid Rand dont even mention the greatest threat to american freedom and privacy and that is that cell phone you have glued to you ear. Why is everyone so surprised NOW that they are farming your info, there was a scandal during the bush admin about it. Remember something technology keeps making things easier to happen 5 yrs in technology is HUGE its far easier to day to farm YOUR info than it was 5 yrs ago and its going to get easier and easier and easier. Cellphone are the single worst invention ever.
Law Enforcement loves them and so does the Govt what does that alone tell you.

Chris
06-07-2013, 09:44 PM
If you watch Fox and MSNBC and read they NYTs and WSJ and the washington times legitimate sources from both sides thats the only way you can even remotely get the truth.
If you just watch fox and go to right wing links from drudge you are going to be wrong more than not about what you think is right. The same applies of you just watch MSNBC.
I truly try to get both viewpoints glaze over the obvious bias and try to get to somewhat of the real deal

I ve told libertarians on forums for along time. Papa Ron and Kid Rand dont even mention the greatest threat to american freedom and privacy and that is that cell phone you have glued to you ear. Why is everyone so surprised NOW that they are farming your info, there was a scandal during the bush admin about it. Remember something technology keeps making things easier to happen 5 yrs in technology is HUGE its far easier to day to farm YOUR info than it was 5 yrs ago and its going to get easier and easier and easier. Cellphone are the single worst invention ever.
Law Enforcement loves them and so does the Govt what does that alone tell you.


I ve told libertarians on forums for along time. Papa Ron and Kid Rand dont even mention the greatest threat to american freedom and privacy and that is that cell phone you have glued to you ear.

And I've demonstrated in response to another of your inflammatory name calling made up BS posts on this that they have.

Hell, I reposted one in this thread, did you miss post #3 somehow?

JimH52
06-08-2013, 09:50 AM
Struggling? I assume you have a link ?

Or is this just another of your attempts to insult FOX news by making things up ?

I hardly ever watch FOX. But when I turned it on for five minutes this week, the talking heads were trying to slam Obama, while they invited intelligence experts who said the practice is necessary for security. In other words, if there is an opportunity to make The President look bad, they will take it even if they bring in people who disagree with them.

Just take a moment and look at their web site. There will be numerous slams and statements about possible impeachment or half truths. Even you can figure what they are trying to do.

Obama is not perfect. I disagree with many of his stances, but FOX appears determined to deny Obama of a second te....Oh wait....he won didn't he...:rollseyes:

Mainecoons
06-08-2013, 09:55 AM
Stick to Chris Matthews. He's more on your level with that tingling leg of his.

:rofl:

JimH52
06-08-2013, 10:06 AM
Stick to Chris Matthews. He's more on your level with that tingling leg of his.

:rofl:

Actually, both FOX and MSNBC are far too partisan for my taste. Neither give you the news, but rather tell you what the news should mean to you. CNN has been found to be the least partisan of any of the major news carriers. But I suppose it makes life a bit easier for some people to be told what they should think the news means.

Mainecoons
06-08-2013, 10:57 AM
I can't imagine how MSNBC could be too partisan for your taste but, whatever you say. :grin:

Can't really comment on any of them because I don't watch any of them. The MSNBC bunch are the most entertaining just because they are so wacky. The rest are boring to me with their repetition and beating every story to death.

It has been pointed out that all of these news/opinion outlets suffer from there simply not being enough material to go around.

Peter1469
06-08-2013, 12:26 PM
The 24 hour news cycle killed real news reporting.

Common
06-08-2013, 02:53 PM
The 24 hour news cycle killed real news reporting.

Its not killing it peter its killed it. It all started with the first gulf war with CNN with second by second coverage from that hotel.
Anyone that wants to be reasonable would readily admit that MSNBC, FOX, CNN are mostly about entertainment and some shock value along with mostly an attempt to indoctrinate.
MSNBC took the lead in having flaming insulting liberals as anchors for shows, like olberman and rachel maddow just for two. Fox has their flamers and they have increased them of late. None of that is news its all party line hyperbole.
You have to watch left and right and read left and right publications to get to the truth if your really interested in the truth that is. The problem is hyper partisans only want to hear what they want to hear thats why MSNBC and FOX especially flourish.

Mister D
06-08-2013, 03:03 PM
I do have to laugh at the way progressives react to Fox though. Yes, it's biased...like the rest of the networks, papers etc.

Peter1469
06-08-2013, 03:18 PM
Its not killing it peter its killed it. It all started with the first gulf war with CNN with second by second coverage from that hotel.
Anyone that wants to be reasonable would readily admit that MSNBC, FOX, CNN are mostly about entertainment and some shock value along with mostly an attempt to indoctrinate.
MSNBC took the lead in having flaming insulting liberals as anchors for shows, like olberman and rachel maddow just for two. Fox has their flamers and they have increased them of late. None of that is news its all party line hyperbole.
You have to watch left and right and read left and right publications to get to the truth if your really interested in the truth that is. The problem is hyper partisans only want to hear what they want to hear thats why MSNBC and FOX especially flourish.

I missed the news coverage from the Gulf War. They forgot to wire my foxhole with cable.

Chris
06-08-2013, 03:28 PM
I do have to laugh at the way progressives react to Fox though. Yes, it's biased...like the rest of the networks, papers etc.

What gets tiresome is criticizing people who don't watch Fox for watching it and when they say they don't want Fox insisting they do. Classic straw man argument. Kicking shit out nothing at all.

Mister D
06-08-2013, 03:53 PM
What gets tiresome is criticizing people who don't watch Fox for watching it and when they say they don't want Fox insisting they do. Classic straw man argument. Kicking shit out nothing at all.

Well, yes, that does seem to be a habit for a couple members. Why criticism of Fox would bother me I don't know.

sedan
06-08-2013, 04:09 PM
What gets tiresome is criticizing people who don't watch Fox for watching it and when they say they don't want Fox insisting they do. Classic straw man argument. Kicking shit out nothing at all.
It is entirely possible to still be wrong about everything without watching Fox News.

Not nearly as likely, but still possible. :)

Chris
06-08-2013, 04:11 PM
It is entirely possible to still be wrong about everything without watching Fox News.

Not nearly as likely, but still possible. :)

Of course. I figure everyone, including myself, is wrong 95% of the time.

Common
06-08-2013, 04:38 PM
Of course. I figure everyone, including myself, is wrong 95% of the time.

another ah hom one liner from chris, we know you believe youre always right

Chris
06-08-2013, 05:00 PM
another ah hom one liner from chris, we know you believe youre always right

Where's the ad hom, common?

I can point out your straw man ad hom: "we know you believe youre always right". Why do you feel this need to make things up?

Common
06-08-2013, 05:23 PM
Where's the ad hom, common?

I can point out your straw man ad hom: "we know you believe youre always right". Why do you feel this need to make things up?

Another ad hom one liner from chris. Hey pfft come closer got a secret for you, your oneliners that are made up are no different than mine and you dont write my rules Ill post what I chose Loololl got it chris ? grasp it hold tight pay attention. Yanno you keep whining about me and Im going to start worrying about what kind of attraction this is.
YOU WINNING YET CHRIS rofl

Chris
06-08-2013, 05:27 PM
Another ad hom one liner from chris. Hey pfft come closer got a secret for you, your oneliners that are made up are no different than mine and you dont write my rules Ill post what I chose Loololl got it chris ? grasp it hold tight pay attention. Yanno you keep whining about me and Im going to start worrying about what kind of attraction this is.
YOU WINNING YET CHRIS rofl

Where's the ad hom, common?

No one's attempting to write your rules, no one's whining about you, common, one straw man after another.

No one ever wins an argument on the internet. Then again, you have to argue to find that out, not just attack people personally and make things up about them.

Common
06-08-2013, 05:34 PM
Where's the ad hom, common?

No one's attempting to write your rules, no one's whining about you, common, one straw man after another.

No one ever wins an argument on the internet. Then again, you have to argue to find that out, not just attack people personally and make things up about them.

Duhduh googoo nanan teapartypoopoo kakaflamer waaawaaa kookypoopookakaka nana
Now you will understand where im coming from Mr Moderator sir oh wait your not being a moderator now right ?
Oh translation of the above for all that dont read rightwingflamize.
I asked Chris why he thinks HE can insert one line nothing statements in anyones thread or answer to anyones post he chooses then think HE has the right to scold people publically that do the same thing he does. Chris your a real treat lolol I expect and ADHOM whine from you blaming me for everything of course because Mr Moderator can do no wrong <smirk>

Chris
06-08-2013, 05:40 PM
Duhduh googoo nanan teapartypoopoo kakaflamer waaawaaa kookypoopookakaka nana
Now you will understand where im coming from Mr Moderator sir oh wait your not being a moderator now right ?
Oh translation of the above for all that dont read rightwingflamize.
I asked Chris why he thinks HE can insert one line nothing statements in anyones thread or answer to anyones post he chooses then think HE has the right to scold people publically that do the same thing he does. Chris your a real treat lolol I expect and ADHOM whine from you blaming me for everything of course because Mr Moderator can do no wrong <smirk>

I'm not moderating you, common, why are you making things up?

As a member I have a right to comment on any post I please. Sorry that you don't like that.

Common
06-08-2013, 06:09 PM
I'm not moderating you, common, why are you making things up?

As a member I have a right to comment on any post I please. Sorry that you don't like that.

Oh so your not moderating now thank you for the clarification, your just doing your silly right wing flamer one line thing that you do. Or are you just trying to scold me in public, please clarify.
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