The CIA made use of a Nazi war criminal's anti-guerrilla skills

[Mister D]

I did not know this!



Oscar-winning British director Kevin Macdonald has raised the intriguing possibility that Che Guevara's capture by the CIA in the forests of Bolivia 40 years ago was orchestrated by Klaus Barbie, the Nazi war criminal called the 'Butcher of Lyon'.

Oscar-winning British director Kevin Macdonald has raised the intriguing possibility that Che Guevara's capture by the CIA in the forests of Bolivia 40 years ago was orchestrated by Klaus Barbie, the Nazi war criminal called the 'Butcher of Lyon'.Guevara was the Marxist guerrilla who helped Fidel Castro seize power in Cuba. Barbie was the Gestapo chief in Lyon whose crimes included the murder of 44 Jewish children, taken from an orphanage and sent to Auschwitz. Improbably, the men's paths crossed in Bolivia. My Enemy's Enemy, a documentary directed by Macdonald, whose previous films include Touching the Void and The Last King of Scotland, examines how Barbie's record was disregarded when he was recruited by US intelligence after the Second World War as a useful tool against communism. He evaded French justice by fleeing to Bolivia where, living under the alias Klaus Altmann, he was welcomed by fascist sympathisers. Meanwhile, in 1966 a disguised Guevara arrived in Bolivia to organise the overthrow of its military dictatorship.
The Americans had been hunting Guevara and, according to the film, turned to Barbie for his first-hand knowledge of counter-guerrilla warfare: he had attempted to crush the French Resistance and was responsible for the death of its celebrated leader, Jean Moulin. Alvaro de Castro, a longtime confidant of Barbie interviewed for the film, says: 'He met Major Shelton, the commander of the unit from the US. Altmann [Barbie] no doubt gave him advice on how to fight this guerrilla war. He used the expertise gained doing this kind of work in World War Two. They made the most of the fact that he had this experience.'


De Castro adds that Barbie had little respect for Che Guevara. 'Altmann said once, "This poor man wouldn't have survived at all if he fought in the Second World War. He was a pitiful adventurer, nothing like his popular image. The people have turned him into a myth, a great figure. But what has he actually achieved? Absolutely nothing".'


I'm going to watch this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/23/world.secondworldwar

[KC]

Wow, that's really interesting. I didn't know that the CIA recruited a former Nazi either, but I don't doubt it. Many of the men who were used by the CIA's "counter-Communist" foreign interventions were men of dubious morality, many of whom were living in exile or in retribution for crimes. Castillo Armas, of course, who was the RUFUS the CIA hand picked successor to the Guatemalan Presidency, was of course living in exile for attempting to assassinate the President of Guatemala (whether he had tried to oust Arevalo or Arbenz escapes me).

[Peter1469]

The US used lots of Nazis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip)

[KC]

The US used lots of Nazis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip)

Yeah, but were those scientists labeled war criminals?

[Peter1469]

Yeah, but were those scientists labeled war criminals?

Technically they were supposed to not be on that list. But the OSS cooked the books to get many war criminals into the US.

[KC]

Technically they were supposed to not be on that list. But the OSS cooked the books to get many war criminals into the US.

Interesting. I'm just finishing another book on the the American coup that overthrew Mossadegh (hence my avatar), which also takes place (mostly) in the post-war period. now of any good reads on Operation Paperclip? Intelligence in the initial era after these agencies were created is a fascinating topic.

[Peter1469]

I don't have any specific recommendations about Operation Paperclip. Check around and see what you can find. It is fascinating. It was essential to our space program.

[jillian]

Interesting. I'm just finishing another book on the the American coup that overthrew Mossadegh (hence my avatar), which also takes place (mostly) in the post-war period. now of any good reads on Operation Paperclip? Intelligence in the initial era after these agencies were created is a fascinating topic.

we did a lot of things ...

including funding terrorists when reagan was president.

what do you think would have happened if Mossadegh nationalized the oil industry?

[roadmaster]

we did a lot of things ...

including funding terrorists when reagan was president.

what do you think would have happened if Mossadegh nationalized the oil industry?

Looks like we still are funding terrorist.

[Mister D]

Operation Paperclip was good thing, IMO, and Peter is spot on. It was essential to our space program. I just thought this was pretty interesting. The Nazis fought long and successful counter-guerrilla war. It's not surprising we made use of that expertise as well.

[KC]

we did a lot of things ...

including funding terrorists when reagan was president.

what do you think would have happened if Mossadegh nationalized the oil industry?

Mossadegh did nationalize the oil industry. It remained that way for nearly two years, ending of course with his dismissal and the end of democracy in Iran.

[Dr. Who]

Interesting. I'm just finishing another book on the the American coup that overthrew Mossadegh (hence my avatar), which also takes place (mostly) in the post-war period. now of any good reads on Operation Paperclip? Intelligence in the initial era after these agencies were created is a fascinating topic.You choose such interesting individuals as avatars.

[Dr. Who]

Operation Paperclip was good thing, IMO, and Peter is spot on. It was essential to our space program. I just thought this was pretty interesting. The Nazis fought long and successful counter-guerrilla war. It's not surprising we made use of that expertise as well.You don't have any moral qualms about the government using the same people that they labeled depraved monsters as tools first in the development of nuclear weapons and later in the space program? That would seem to me to be the definition of both moral relativism and moral ambiguity.

[Mister D]

You don't have any moral qualms about the government using the same people that they labeled depraved monsters as tools first in the development of nuclear weapons and later in the space program? That would seem to me to be the definition of both moral relativism and moral ambiguity.

Who involved in the space program was a "depraved monster"?

To answer your question, no. Would it have been better for the Soviets to get them? Secondly, yes, there is a great deal of moral ambiguity at times. Welcome to the world. It can get complicated here so be careful.

[KC]

You choose such interesting individuals as avatars.

Thanks!

[Peter1469]

Who involved in the space program was a "depraved monster"?

To answer your question, no. Would it have been better for the Soviets to get them? Secondly, yes, there is a great deal of moral ambiguity at times. Welcome to the world. It can get complicated here so be careful.

Right, it is realism rather than ideology.

[Dr. Who]

Who involved in the space program was a "depraved monster"?

To answer your question, no. Would it have been better for the Soviets to get them? Secondly, yes, there is a great deal of moral ambiguity at times. Welcome to the world. It can get complicated here so be careful.
The ones who were active members of the Nazi party. Wernher von Braun, Kurt Debus and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a "menace to the security of the Allied Forces".

[Mister D]

The ones who were active members of the Nazi party. Wernher von Braun, Kurt Debus and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a "menace to the security of the Allied Forces".

none of those men could be descried as "depraved monsters". Such a term loses its impact when applied so frivolously.

[Dr. Who]

none of those men could be descried as "depraved monsters". Such a term loses its impact when applied so frivolously.Membership in a political party that actively advocates and practices depraved and monstrous acts such as genocide, by definition ascribes the same philosophy to all of its members, whether they are participants in those acts or not. Providing false papers and fictitious pasts to such individuals for opportunistic reasons is morally bereft and consummately hypocritical.

[Mister D]

Membership in a political party that actively advocates and practices depraved and monstrous acts such as genocide, by definition ascribes the same philosophy to all of its members, whether they are participants in those acts or not. Providing false papers and fictitious pasts to such individuals for opportunistic reasons is morally bereft and consummately hypocritical.

By that criteria you could describe half the country as "depraved monsters" but that would be frivolous and, frankly, just plain silly. If the space program contained real "monsters" (like Klaus Barbie, for example) you'd have a point.

[Dr. Who]

By that criteria you could describe half the country as "depraved monsters" but that would be frivolous and, frankly, just plain silly. If the space program contained real "monsters" (like Klaus Barbie, for example) you'd have a point.I said active members, as opposed to those who had no choice in order to obtain employment.

[zelmo1234]

Membership in a political party that actively advocates and practices depraved and monstrous acts such as genocide, by definition ascribes the same philosophy to all of its members, whether they are participants in those acts or not. Providing false papers and fictitious pasts to such individuals for opportunistic reasons is morally bereft and consummately hypocritical.

Yes IF you look at it in an ideological way!

But if you look at it as these people were put into a system and helped to build a program that brought about decades of relitive peace.

The other way to look at it is if the Germans had won, then FDR would ahve been the monster. Would all democrats be monsters too?

If you get a tactical advantage you take it! and that is what the USA did.

[Mister D]

I said active members, as opposed to those who had no choice in order to obtain employment.

I know what you said. Again, if the space program contained real "monsters" (like Klaus Barbie, for example) you'd have a point. none of the men listed above could be called a monster if we wish the term to retain its meaning.

[Dr. Who]

Yes IF you look at it in an ideological way!

But if you look at it as these people were put into a system and helped to build a program that brought about decades of relitive peace.

The other way to look at it is if the Germans had won, then FDR would ahve been the monster. Would all democrats be monsters too?

If you get a tactical advantage you take it! and that is what the USA did.If it really was the right thing to do, why the subterfuge about their past? Perhaps millions of Americans who fought against these people on principal might have been aghast at the notion?

[zelmo1234]

If it really was the right thing to do, why the subterfuge about their past? Perhaps millions of Americans who fought against these people on principal might have been aghast at the notion?

You are correct! If thinking idologically you can make the case that under no circumstances would you use this knowledge.

But sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do. Sometimes you take into account the need of the nation!

A great example is the surrent NSA depate. It may turn out, that it was the right thing to do to listen to the information of some of these calls. though most of the public would disagree!

[jillian]

Yes IF you look at it in an ideological way!

But if you look at it as these people were put into a system and helped to build a program that brought about decades of relitive peace.

The other way to look at it is if the Germans had won, then FDR would ahve been the monster. Would all democrats be monsters too?

If you get a tactical advantage you take it! and that is what the USA did.

ideologically? how about if you look at it as a human.

do you really engage in moral relativism so severe that you are unable to actually define naziism as evil... along with its proponents?