PDA

View Full Version : Bible Discussions.....



MMC
01-17-2012, 03:15 PM
..

Alias
01-17-2012, 03:20 PM
Okay.....what Bible is the Most read Bible of them All? What is it about the Torah that Christians cannot accept with regards to the Bible? Should the Bible be expanded due to other books that the Christian Religions deemed were not part of the teachings of the Torah and or Christ?

I would presume the King James is the most read.

I don't understand what you mean by not accepting the Torah. Isn't the Torah the first 5 books of the bible?

I know Catholics have a few more books in their bible than the Protestants do. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses who have their own writings that they consider the same as scripture. I believe those religions are false since they don't line up wth the Bible.

Mister D
01-17-2012, 03:22 PM
Yes, most if not all Christians accept the Torah.

Alias is probably right about the KJV at least in this country.

Conley
01-17-2012, 03:36 PM
Yes, most if not all Christians accept the Torah.

Alias is probably right about the KJV at least in this country.

KJV is the only version I know off the top of my head. Do they use another version in other countries?

I was never much of a student but I thought the Episcopal Bible and the Roman Catholic Bible I was exposed to growing up were basically the same (KJV).

MMC
01-17-2012, 03:45 PM
..

Mister D
01-17-2012, 03:55 PM
KJV is the only version I know off the top of my head. Do they use another version in other countries?

I was never much of a student but I thought the Episcopal Bible and the Roman Catholic Bible I was exposed to growing up were basically the same (KJV).


The Catholic bible has a few more books I believe than the KJV. I always had the LJV around the house because thought we were a Catholic family my mom became born again when I was a small child. That's more of a Protestant thing.

Mister D
01-17-2012, 04:22 PM
I think it's called the Vulgate?

MMC
01-17-2012, 04:41 PM
..

Mister D
01-17-2012, 04:42 PM
I would also recommend several good theologies. There is a .lot to the bible and the OT isn particular. There are layers of meaning.

MMC
01-17-2012, 04:46 PM
..

MMC
01-17-2012, 04:50 PM
..

Mister D
01-17-2012, 04:51 PM
Holy Cow.....its Invisible Ink.....Copy over the box and the print comes up. Guess it won't let one copy anything here where it will show up. Just Copy from the left hand corner down and it will pop up. here is the link.....

http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm


I saw that. :laugh:

MMC
01-17-2012, 05:01 PM
..

MMC
01-17-2012, 05:12 PM
..

MMC
01-17-2012, 05:24 PM
..

Conley
01-17-2012, 05:31 PM
Bring it! :grin:

MMC
01-17-2012, 05:39 PM
..

MMC
01-17-2012, 07:17 PM
..

Peter1469
01-17-2012, 08:25 PM
great song!

Mister D
01-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Note all these Bibles state in Genesis.....that Man Was made in OUR Image. Which comes the discussion of the plurality of this statement. As in Gods and not One!

Lets hear some people's take on this and just what Image do people think is being mentioned?

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1582196078499&id=9a9852f8e3c81cf8d148011051989ad1&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.optimum7.com%2finternet-marketing%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2009%2f02%2flifesize-lost-in-space-b-9-robot-2.jpg

Warning.....Warning......MMC will be playing Devil's Adovcate! :evil-reading-book-0 :evilgrin:

That's easy. First of all, "image" does mean likeness in the sense of a physical likeness. It means a likeness of function. That is, we are stewards of God's creation. We have been delegated power over His creation. In the context of the ANE (ancient Near East) religion that's how "in the image of God" is to be properly understood. As for the use of plural, it refers to the heavenly council. This concept was common to ANE religions.

MMC
01-18-2012, 09:10 AM
..

Mister D
01-18-2012, 09:30 AM
Are you agreeing to Bi-pedel? :evil-reading-book-0 Let US make Man in Our Own Image. Think the Brews knew the difference between one and more. :rollseyes:

If Adam and Eve had two Sons and Cain killed Abel. That these were the first humans. Then how did Cain marry Methusala? From where does she come? :glasses11:

Are we in agreement that there are books that are missing or were removed from the Torah and or Bible? Don't worry if you agree.....I won't consider it as giving me your soul! :evil6: :evil:

I have no idea what "bi-pedel" means in this context and what is meant by "image" has already been explained. This isn't even controversial.

Adam and Eve had more children in Genesis than Cain and Abel.

No.

Alias
01-18-2012, 01:59 PM
That's easy. First of all, "image" does mean likeness in the sense of a physical likeness. It means a likeness of function. That is, we are stewards of God's creation. We have been delegated power over His creation. In the context of the ANE (ancient Near East) religion that's how "in the image of God" is to be properly understood. As for the use of plural, it refers to the heavenly council. This concept was common to ANE religions.

"Let US create"

There is only one creator. Angels do not create.

Mister D
01-18-2012, 02:14 PM
"Let US create"

There is only one creator. Angels do not create.


Indeed, there is only one Creator. God is speaking to the heavenly council. This isn't a particularly controversial point. There are two main theories. One is as i described and one is a Trinitarian theory. Aiens don't figure into it much to MMC's chagrin.

MMC
01-18-2012, 04:08 PM
..

Mister D
01-18-2012, 04:14 PM
Meaning humanoid.....bi-pedal/two-legged.

While they may have had more Children.....when Cain is marked. Whom would he fear that would kill him? if his family is the only ones on the planet?

As for the lost books.....there is the book of Jasher, the Book of Jubilees. Which is known as the little Genesis and or The Apocalypse of Moses. Which the Brews knew of from the beginning. There there are the Lost books of Enoch. Also note the Bible does reference other books at the time and or writers.

The book of Jasher is known as Sefer Ha Yashar.....which is referred to in Joshua X 13 and Second Samuel I....18.

Image in this context does not mean humanoid. It refers to function.

Adam amd Eve had many children in Genesis. In any case, few Christrians take Genesis lierally. Not sure what you're trying to get at?

Yet the Hebrews chose not to include those books in their bible. Conspiracy? lol

MMC
01-18-2012, 04:42 PM
..

MMC
01-18-2012, 05:32 PM
..

Mister D
01-18-2012, 06:57 PM
Nope.....no conspiracy at all. lmao! Just a group of people that weren't to intelligent nor Righteous at all! As they cite the books as reference in the old testament. Moreover they have never denounced that there were other books. Who chooses as not all Brews were for keeping such books out.(Could it be those that were in Power)But regardless of their choosing such, does not change the fact that there were others. Course the only ones to do that was the Roman Catholic Church. Lets not forget they had to be taught how to write by the Sumerians. The first to write. So just where do these people come in on the timeline and being related to Adam and Eve? Plus now all know Moses didnt write the first 5 books of the Bible and that it was Enoch. So why did the Brews attempt to hide that fact from the beginning knowing in the Future such would be discovered?

So are you sayin that Cain married his sister? Oh and are you saying that there were not any other books or teachings of Christ removed from the New Testament?

One other thing.....The Christian Religion and the Brews are not the only ones that state their Gods and or One God came down from the sky.

On an interesting side note.....cities discovered that predate the brews Civilization leaves their interpretation of things......where? :rollseyes:

LOL What? Again, you don't seem to understand that few Christians take the entire bible literally. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Again, "image" does not refer to a physical likeness. Stop listening to Georgio.

The Sumerians did not teach the "Brews" how to write. The Sumerians were long gone by the time the "Brews"entered the scene.

So more than one civilization refers to their god(s) coming down from the sky. From where should the gods come from? The basement?

Again, not every text made it into the Hebrew scriptures. Your point is what?

Mister D
01-18-2012, 06:58 PM
There are 28 books in the Bible that are mentioned but not included. Also Enoch is 7th in line to Adam!

And?

MMC
01-18-2012, 08:04 PM
..

Conley
01-18-2012, 08:26 PM
All this talk of Brews is making me darn thirsty. :occasion14:

Mister D
01-18-2012, 08:34 PM
The point is to have a discussion on the Bible and whatever that pertains to. Or wherever the discussion takes it. :smiley_ROFLMAO: I can use older writings than this holy writing. So whats your point! That Christians don't agree on where their roots come from. Hmmmm sounds like the same deal with the Sunni and Shia.Can't ever seem to agree on anything when it comes to esoteric knowledge.

What don't Christians agree on?


Again :biglaugh: who gives a fuck what Georgio has to say. People were questioning such long before the AAT's theory came along. There is another theory about Christianity that comes from Military Historians perspective and a Theory they have on what took place with Christianity after the death of Christ with James and whom the Church calls it's leader now. Paul! A much more plausible theory with the reality of the politics during that time. :studying:

You do. Why else would you have made that comment about being in the image of God? Anyway, what "theory" is that?


That Christians dont take to the old testament and Genesis. Its not surprising at all. To take the parts one can identify with, and dismiss what they dont understand or cannot believe. Also when they never had the full story from the Brews in the first place. As a Christian I am sure you would be familiar with the writings on Adam and Eve which were also thought to have more detailed explanations of Genesis. Especially when their understanding comes thru a translator. Then thru another translation after that. Not like any meaning was lost.....huh? :rollseyes:

Much meaning has apparently been lost on you and I didn't say that Christians don't "take to the old testament and Genesis". I'm not even sure what that means.


Come again I think you need to re-check history. The Sumerians and the Egyptians would not have thought that Enoch was a King and recorded it down as such. If they were no longer in Existance. I throw in the Egyptians as they also have Enoch down as Such and it is in their heiroglyphs. Who also have recorded down what they know of the Sumerians. :evil-reading-book-0

Um...MMC. Look up the Sumerians. They were long gone before the Hebrews appear in history circa 1200 BC. LONG GONE.


Then there were the teachings of Christ that were not even put in the Bible. Another note would be the division within the Brews Relgious Caste. Much was removed from the Works after Constantine and the early Church leaders purged the works.

And...? Secondly how do you know these were teachings of Christ?


Again with older civilizations pre-dating anything before the Brews, leaves their understanding of things.....where?

Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Please stop with the stream of consciousness writing Just try and express yourself clearly.

MMC
01-18-2012, 10:29 PM
..

MMC
01-18-2012, 10:35 PM
..

wingrider
01-19-2012, 01:17 AM
much to deep a discussion for me... I think I will just stick with Jesus and the fact he died to pay a debt I never would have been able to pay..

carry on

MMC
01-19-2012, 01:57 AM
..

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:05 AM
..

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:50 AM
What do you think that the Christian Bible written by man cannot be disputed? How's that for some clarity? That statements that were made have been proven false. Pretty clear there. You were the one that said Christians dont take Genesis literally. As I pointed out they do take what they deem beneficial to their belief literally. Yet most of them do not even know of the other Jewish books about such that the Brews Religious caste decided not to put into the Torah.

The reason I said Let US make them Into Our Image was over what Enoch stated about the names of whom he saw. Which has nothing to do with Georgio. Moreover you stated that God was Speaking to the Heavenly Council. Now why would the Creator of all living things need to speak to a heavenly council about what he creates?

With regard to Paul.....the theory is he was a Roman Spy! If correctly proven how would you think this affects Christianity after Christ?

Looking at Enoch and the timeline for the Brews I was just trying to establish the correlation between the Akkadian and Sumerians. Which plays out with what the Brews describe from the beginning and the Babylonians as well as Sumerians. Note it says Enoch lived 365 years. That he was 7th in line and considered like a Priest/King.

So I was looking at who the Brews took from after they entered the region. As just one aspect to discuss.

Enoch's Sumerian ancestors.....
Within the antediluvian geneology (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) lists of Genesis, one figure stands out. In the formulaic "Priestly" geneology, we read: "When Enoch was sixty-five years old he became father to Methuselah. Enoch walked with God. After the birth of Methuselah he lived for three hundred years and he became the father of sons and daughters. In all, Enoch lived for three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God. Then he vanished because God took him" (Genesis 5:21-24). The Kenite "Yahwist" (J) geneology in ch. 4 also mentioned another Enoch: "Cain had intercourse with his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to Enoch. He became builder of a town, and it was given the name of name of Enoch" (Genesis 4:17). The enigmatic figure of Enoch in Genesis was elaborated considerably in later Jewish legend (especially in the first century B.C. apocalypse 1 Enoch), but the traditions contained therein are much older. For many years it has been recognized that the Enochian traditions are dependent on Sumerian and Akkadian legends.....snip~

Sigh...

One thing at a time...

I didn't say the bible can't be "disputed". I'm just asking what your point is and telling you that you're not doing a good job of disputing the bible.


As I pointed out they do take what they deem beneficial to their belief literally.

No, you didn't point that out. Please, focus now. Stop babbling. Sit down...


OK ready...


Now expound on that SINGLE point. Just that. Please don''t say anything else. Just explain that one point.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:55 AM
With regard to Paul.....the theory is he was a Roman Spy!

Oh, is that why they executed Paul?

:f_doh:

MMC
01-19-2012, 03:40 PM
..

Mister D
01-19-2012, 03:58 PM
We already know from a Historical point of view Saul was a Police Officer In the Roman Government.....be fore his conversion. As I stated in 2008 a Theory has been put forth that Paul Was a Roman Spy. Then man who Gave us the Theory that the Messiah Had Been Crucified as The Will of God. A debate that still goes on today with the Jews.

The theory is accepted as plausible. Which there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that may support the claim. Robert Eisenman stated that if it was proven to be true it would Shake the Core of Christianty Today.

Robert Eisenman stands virtually alone in that regard and you have the theory wrong in any case. Eisenman argues that Paul was a friend of the Herodian dynasty not a Roman spy.

Of course Robert Eisenman considers the theory plausible. I would hope so. It's his theory!

MMC
01-19-2012, 05:02 PM
..

Mister D
01-19-2012, 05:44 PM
MMC, this is some guy's blog. Really dude...:grin: Moreover, it's no wonder that Eisenman would be kind enough to write a "blurb" for one of his disciples.

wingrider
01-19-2012, 06:03 PM
Paul ( Saul) was a member of the sanhedren and trained by Gamaleil in the priesthood, He persecuted Christians at the order of the temple , the high priest, He was also a Roman citizen, this is the reason he was able to tell the governor that the trial he was a Roman citizen and the only person who could sentence him to death was the emporer himself.that is why he was sent to rome and spent at least 2 years in prison before he was finally beheaded.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0708.asp


http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/saintpaul.html

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:06 PM
Paul ( Saul) was a member of the sanhedren and trained by Gamaleil in the priesthood, He persecuted Christians at the order of the temple , the high priest, He was also a Roman citizen, this is the reason he was able to tell the governor that the trial he was a Roman citizen and the only person who could sentence him to death was the emporer himself.that is why he was sent to rome and spent at least 2 years in prison before he was finally beheaded.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0708.asp


http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/saintpaul.html

They executed him to shut him up. He knew too much! :laugh:

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:09 PM
..

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:11 PM
MMC, most military historians are doing no such thing. Where do you get this stuff?

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:15 PM
..

Conley
01-19-2012, 06:20 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51--BYXVjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Here's her book - http://www.amazon.com/Spies-Bible-Rose-Mary-Sheldon/dp/1853676365

Conley
01-19-2012, 06:20 PM
In Spies of the Bible, Rose Mary Sheldon highlights the importance of espionage and traces the role intelligence has played from the Jewish exodus from Egypt to the Bar Kochba Revolt. The Near East has been fiercely contested by various parties for thousands of years, and much of the fighting was conducted not in large-scale battles and confrontations, but in smaller guerrilla operations of low-intensity conflict. Since the very key to guerrilla operations or surprise attacks is knowing where the enemy will be, timely and accurate intelligence is essential. The Jews fought as guerrillas when they were nomads in the desert trying to take over the cities of Canaan. As an occupied state, they fought three wars of liberation against the Greeks and Romans. This too meant fighting as guerrillas, employing terrorist tactics and organizing clandestinely. The modern irony is that it is the Jews who are the established power in their homeland, and it is the Palestinians who are fighting a guerrilla war in the form of the intifada. This type of warfare seems to be endemic to the region because of its small size, and therefore intelligence will always play a large part in any conflict. Rose Mary Sheldon’s book is the first substantial work to examine warfare in the ancient Near East and the crucial role of intelligence gathering in the Holy Land. Her text includes an analysis of the Last Supper, the trial of Jesus before Pontius Pilate, the attack on Masada, the Maccabees and the Battles of Beth Horon, Emmaus and Beth Zur.

wingrider
01-19-2012, 06:20 PM
They executed him to shut him up. He knew too much! :laugh:

in a sense you are right ,, they shut him up trying to stamp out the christian faith, because it was a threat to the Roman empire, the emporer thought he was God and that all people were to worship him. Caligula and Nero

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:27 PM
in a sense you are right ,, they shut him up trying to stamp out the christian faith, because it was a threat to the Roman empire, the emporer thought he was God and that all people were to worship him. Caligula and Nero

Who was more of a Threat? James, Jesus' brother or Paul?

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:29 PM
In Spies of the Bible, Rose Mary Sheldon highlights the importance of espionage and traces the role intelligence has played from the Jewish exodus from Egypt to the Bar Kochba Revolt. The Near East has been fiercely contested by various parties for thousands of years, and much of the fighting was conducted not in large-scale battles and confrontations, but in smaller guerrilla operations of low-intensity conflict. Since the very key to guerrilla operations or surprise attacks is knowing where the enemy will be, timely and accurate intelligence is essential. The Jews fought as guerrillas when they were nomads in the desert trying to take over the cities of Canaan. As an occupied state, they fought three wars of liberation against the Greeks and Romans. This too meant fighting as guerrillas, employing terrorist tactics and organizing clandestinely. The modern irony is that it is the Jews who are the established power in their homeland, and it is the Palestinians who are fighting a guerrilla war in the form of the intifada. This type of warfare seems to be endemic to the region because of its small size, and therefore intelligence will always play a large part in any conflict. Rose Mary Sheldon’s book is the first substantial work to examine warfare in the ancient Near East and the crucial role of intelligence gathering in the Holy Land. Her text includes an analysis of the Last Supper, the trial of Jesus before Pontius Pilate, the attack on Masada, the Maccabees and the Battles of Beth Horon, Emmaus and Beth Zur.








As I stated the Col.....is already established in this field of History. :wink:

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:30 PM
I approached Col. Rose Mary Sheldon of the Virginia Military Institute. :rollseyes: Guess you forgot when those in the field start doing research and then discussing it with other Experts in Military History. :kiss: I understand your civilian mentality. Lmao!

1. Col. Rose Mary Sheldon is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote told by some guy on a blog.
3. LOL

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:31 PM
As I stated the Col.....is already established in this field of History. :wink:

No, MMC, it's not. You really do believe everything you read and hear.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:32 PM
in a sense you are right ,, they shut him up trying to stamp out the christian faith, because it was a threat to the Roman empire, the emporer thought he was God and that all people were to worship him. Caligula and Nero

I'm joking of course. Yes, the Roman authorities disliked what Paul was doing. So did the Jews who were the ones instigating for his arrest.

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
1. Col. Rose Mary Sheldon is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote told by some guy on a blog.
3. LOL


Lmao, crying about some blog.....look her up at the Virginia Institute. You do understand what research entails, do you not? This means not only with Military historians but religious ones and their expertise. Use some common sense for a change! :rollseyes:

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Who was more of a Threat? James, Jesus' brother or Paul?

Well, the Romans killed Paul...

Mister D
01-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Lmao, crying about some blog.....look her up at the Virginia Institute. You do understand what research entails, do you not? This means not only with Military historians but religious ones and their expertise. Use some common sense for a change! :rollseyes:

MMC, you're embarrassing yourself.

1. Col. Rose Mary Sheldon is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote told by some guy on a blog.
3. LOL

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:35 PM
No, MMC, it's not. You really do believe everything you read and hear.

Kinda like what you read and believe what you hear.....eh? lmao! Oh, and then taking only what parts you want to believe! :grin:

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:38 PM
http://www.vmi.edu/assets/0/2053/2585/2813/2817/0e856c16-885f-4bba-abaf-4a32869f9801.jpg
Department Head & Professor of History


I think Conley Post proves otherwise! :laugh: :wink:

MMC
01-19-2012, 06:40 PM
Virginia Military Institute, Professor, August 2000-present
Virginia Military Institute, Department Head, December 2009-August 2005
Virginia Military Institute, (Associate Professor) 1996-2000
Virginia Military Institute, (Assistant Professor) 1993-1996
American Military University, (Adjunct) 1996-present, Graduate courses (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) in ancint intelligence
Norwich University (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#), (Assistant Professor) 1991-1993
Montana State University, (Assistant Professor) 1990-1991, Western Civilization, Greek History, Roman History, Egypt and Mesopotamia
George Washington University (Adjunct) 1990, Espionage in the Ancient World
Defense Intelligence College, (Adjunct) 1986-1989, Graduate seminar: An Intelligence Retrospective, Troy to Pearl Harbor
Georgetown University, (Adjunct) 1984-1988, Espionage in the Ancient World, Politics and Propaganda in the Hellenistic Age, The Roman Republic, The Roman Empire, Classical Greek
Civilization, Smithsonian Institution, Guest Lecturer 1989, 2003, 2004

Come again? lmao

Conley
01-19-2012, 07:01 PM
Where did D go?

MMC
01-19-2012, 07:11 PM
Where did D go?

:dontknow: Says he is here.....maybe taking a break! The OL made some lasagna so I am going to be taking one myself.

Conley
01-19-2012, 07:14 PM
Mmm sounds good on a cold night. Enjoy your dinner.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 07:22 PM
http://www.vmi.edu/assets/0/2053/2585/2813/2817/0e856c16-885f-4bba-abaf-4a32869f9801.jpg
Department Head & Professor of History


I think Conley Post proves otherwise! :laugh: :wink:

"Conley post" doesn't even touch on it. :wink: :huh:

:laugh:

Mister D
01-19-2012, 07:24 PM
Virginia Military Institute, Professor, August 2000-present
Virginia Military Institute, Department Head, December 2009-August 2005
Virginia Military Institute, (Associate Professor) 1996-2000
Virginia Military Institute, (Assistant Professor) 1993-1996
American Military University, (Adjunct) 1996-present, Graduate courses (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) in ancint intelligence
Norwich University (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#), (Assistant Professor) 1991-1993
Montana State University, (Assistant Professor) 1990-1991, Western Civilization, Greek History, Roman History, Egypt and Mesopotamia
George Washington University (Adjunct) 1990, Espionage in the Ancient World
Defense Intelligence College, (Adjunct) 1986-1989, Graduate seminar: An Intelligence Retrospective, Troy to Pearl Harbor
Georgetown University, (Adjunct) 1984-1988, Espionage in the Ancient World, Politics and Propaganda in the Hellenistic Age, The Roman Republic, The Roman Empire, Classical Greek
Civilization, Smithsonian Institution, Guest Lecturer 1989, 2003, 2004

Come again? lmao

Sigh...

1. this person is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote from some guy's blog.
3. LOL

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove wrong.

Conley
01-19-2012, 07:26 PM
"Conley post" doesn't even touch on it. :wink: :huh:

:laugh:

True, I did not and would not touch her with my post.




Carry on.




:grin:

Conley
01-19-2012, 07:27 PM
(and by "post", I mean...OH wait, you're talking about my written words. Got it!)

MMC
01-19-2012, 07:53 PM
Sigh...

1. this person is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote from some guy's blog.
3. LOL

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove wrong.

Look D.....it's real simple. She has been in touch with the Top Military Historians at West Point, Annapolis, and Canada/Britian and Israel. Her reserach took in with Brenner. Religious Historians both from the US and Israel. Thats most in the field of Military Intellegence. Research and validation of Saul's Timeline and whom he was round. Then his time as Paul.

Laughing about it doesnt change the facts that the Theory exists and is out there. Also why would such shake Christianity to the core? If found to be true, that is.

So what I used a blog to prove that the theory was out there. There are other links and they have shown it on Televison. You cannot dispute her credentials nor whom she has had to be communicating with and work with concerning the research. In order to get it out there. All that basic bullshit and generalities that all take place with research. One cannot attempt to change what was originally thought as truth. Without facts.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 07:57 PM
Look D.....it's real simple. She has been in touch with the Top Military Historians at West Point, Annapolis, and Canada/Britian and Israel. Her reserach took in with Brenner. Religious Historians both from the US and Israel. Thats most in the field of Military Intellegence. Research and validation of Saul's Timeline and whom he was round. Then his time as Paul.

Laughing about it doesnt change the facts that the Theory exists and is out there. Also why would such shake Christianity to the core? If found to be true, that is.

So what I used a blog to prove that the theory was out there. There are other links and they have shown it on Televison. You cannot dispute her credentials nor whom she has had to be communicating with and work with concerning the research. In order to get it out there. All that basic bullshit and generalities that all take place with research. One cannot attempt to change what was originally thought as truth. Without facts.

She can be in touch with millions of people. It doesn't matter. Let me repeat:

1. this person is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote from some guy's blog.
3. LOL

And I'll add a 4th

4. Few religious scholars and/or historians subscribe to this theory.

I don't care if the theory is "out there". Many dubious theories are out there. So what?

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:22 PM
She can be in touch with millions of people. It doesn't matter. Let me repeat:

1. this person is not "most military historians".
2. It's an anecdote from some guy's blog.
3. LOL

And I'll add a 4th

4. Few religious scholars and/or historians subscribe to this theory.

I don't care if the theory is "out there". Many dubious theories are out there. So what?

I said Military.....and I didnt say they all agreed. I said she had to be in commuication with them for her research. But the majority of Military historians are agreeing. Which is why the research went forward. If there was nothing there, it would have been shot down from the get go.

Who cares if it comes from some blog....if that is such a problem for you go directly to the Virginia Institute. Or to Sheldons own Site. Then you can discover for yourself. Moreover she doesnt need to go to many. Just the top in their respective fields and all those that agree with them.

So what.....what do you mean so what, again you cannot dispute her credentials at all! Nor whom she has been in contact with which involves her work. Despite your beliefs and or feelings.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:27 PM
I said Military.....and I didnt say they all agreed. I said she had to be in commuication with them for her research. But the majority of Military historians are agreeing. Which is why the research went forward. If there was nothing there, it would have been shot down from the get go.

Who cares if it comes from some blog....if that is such a problem for you go directly to the Virginia Institute. Or to Sheldons own Site. Then you can discover for yourself. Moreover she doesnt need to go to many. Just the top in their respective fields and all those that agree with them.

So what.....what do you mean so what, again you cannot dispute her credentials at all! Nor whom she has been in contact with which involves her work. Despite your beliefs and or feelings.

She is one person and all you are going on as far as she is concerned is the claim some guy made on his blog. Secondly, no, few historians subscribe to this theory. Very few. Third, what would military historians know about whether or not Paul was a genuine convert? Fourth, it was an MA thesis. Do you really think people are going to say it's crap?

For the record, few historians (in any field of history) subscribe to this theory.

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:30 PM
I would have thought ya might have stuck up for one of ya own D....:wink:

New Jersey State Scholarship (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) 1965-1969.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:32 PM
I would have thought ya might have stuck up for one of ya own D....:wink:

New Jersey State Scholarship (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) 1965-1969.

I don't even know if what is claimed on this blog is true and I don't care where she is from.

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:36 PM
No D. I am going by her book and the TV show and her credentials. I give two shits about some guys blog other than he knew about it. Plus All Whom she has been incontact with overseas and over what her Expertise is!

EDITORIAL BOARDS:

The Journal of Military History
International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Small Wars and Insurgencies 2004-
Sparta
PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS:

Classical Association of Virginia
Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies
Society for the Promotion of Hellenic Studies
Association of Ancient Historians
Association of Former Intelligence Officers
International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, Editorial Board
Small Wars and Insurgencies, Editorial Board
RIEAS (Research Institute for European and American Studies, Athens, Greece), Advisory Board.

RADIO APPEARANCES:

NPR, With Good Reason, 2001, "Espionage in the Ancient World"
NPR, With Good Reason, March 15-21, 2003 "The Problem of Evil
NPR, With Good Reason, May 2006, "Rome's Wars in Iraq With Modern Parallels"
ARCHAEOLOGICAL EXCAVATIONS:

University of Michigan Excavations at Carthage, Tunisia
Università di Perugia Excavations at Saepinum, Italy
Université de Grenoble Excavations at Marnans, France
Archaeological Survey of Constantine, Algeria
EDUCATION:

Ph.D. 1987 The University of Michigan, Ancient history, Roman provincial archaeology, Byzantine history
M.A. 1976 Hunter College, City University of New York, Ancient history, Medieval history
B.A. 1969 Trenton State College, Trenton, New Jersey, European history

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:37 PM
You are going by some guy's blog. Do you have any information on her opinions regarding this theory? No. You have an anecdote on a blog.

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:41 PM
You are going by some guy's blog. Do you have any information on her opinions regarding this theory? No. You have an anecdote on a blog.

Didnt CL put up one of her quotes from her book?

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:43 PM
Didnt CL put up one of her quotes from her book?


No. Spies of the Bible is her book and it does not mention this theory.

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:44 PM
Rose Mary Sheldon’s book is the first substantial work to examine warfare in the ancient Near East and the crucial role of intelligence gathering in the Holy Land. Her text includes an analysis of the Last Supper, the trial of Jesus before Pontius Pilate, the attack on Masada, the Maccabees and the Battles of Beth Horon, Emmaus and Beth Zur.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Rose Mary Sheldon’s book is the first substantial work to examine warfare in the ancient Near East and the crucial role of intelligence gathering in the Holy Land. Her text includes an analysis of the Last Supper, the trial of Jesus before Pontius Pilate, the attack on Masada, the Maccabees and the Battles of Beth Horon, Emmaus and Beth Zur.

Yeah and?

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:47 PM
No. Spies of the Bible is her book and it does not mention this theory.

Edited the above. This theory is not mentioned.

MMC
01-19-2012, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by MMC http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=35007#post35007) We already know from a Historical point of view Saul was a Police Officer In the Roman Government.....be fore his conversion. As I stated in 2008 a Theory has been put forth that Paul Was a Roman Spy. Then man who Gave us the Theory that the Messiah Had Been Crucified as The Will of God. A debate that still goes on today with the Jews.

The theory is accepted as plausible. Which there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that may support the claim. Robert Eisenman stated that if it was proven to be true it would Shake the Core of Christianty Today.

Mister D
01-19-2012, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by MMC http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=35007#post35007) We already know from a Historical point of view Saul was a Police Officer In the Roman Government.....be fore his conversion. As I stated in 2008 a Theory has been put forth that Paul Was a Roman Spy. Then man who Gave us the Theory that the Messiah Had Been Crucified as The Will of God. A debate that still goes on today with the Jews.

The theory is accepted as plausible. Which there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that may support the claim. Robert Eisenman stated that if it was proven to be true it would Shake the Core of Christianty Today.

And we know why Robert Eisenman would say such a thing. He has a similar theory and he stands virtually alone as does our MA thesis guy. No, all you have to suggest the theory is "accepted as plausible" is this claim on a blog and the blurb by Robert Eisenman.

MMC
01-19-2012, 09:04 PM
Robert Eisenman stands virtually alone in that regard and you have the theory wrong in any case. Eisenman argues that Paul was a friend of the Herodian dynasty not a Roman spy.

Of course Robert Eisenman considers the theory plausible. I would hope so. It's his theory!


Thats when you put this.....I had put the student who now has a book out on this theory and that they were working with Sheldon who said the Theory was likely!

Mister D
01-20-2012, 10:45 AM
Robert Eisenman stands virtually alone in that regard and you have the theory wrong in any case. Eisenman argues that Paul was a friend of the Herodian dynasty not a Roman spy.

Of course Robert Eisenman considers the theory plausible. I would hope so. It's his theory!


Thats when you put this.....I had put the student who now has a book out on this theory and that they were working with Sheldon who said the Theory was likely!



So a student and Robert Eiseman have theories about St. Paul the super spy. OK. so what? And your claim about Sheldon comes from a student's blog.

MMC
01-20-2012, 12:01 PM
Well I did say a plausible theory. The Blog is the Student who is doing the Thesis and is working with Brenner and Sheldon. But if the Theory Pans out it will be that person from Holland. What would it change?

Still even if it was proven true. How would this rock the core of Christianity? I just don't see it doing so. No actions listed in the Bible would change. People would not stop believing in Jesus nor his teachings.

Now could I see the Roman Empire doing something like this with Intelligence. Yes! Without a doubt and to especially stop any insurrection.

Inquiry: How did Paul become Leader over James?

MMC
01-22-2012, 09:10 AM
What is the difference in wording with the being who speaks to Hortar the Egyptian Slave who flees Sarah and Abraham. With the King James version of the Bible and the International?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 12:50 PM
Look up the appropriate verses in each bible. The texts are all available online. It's as easy as typing the verses into your search engine.

wingrider
01-22-2012, 01:12 PM
what most people i think are failing to recognise is that Paul was the missionary to the gentiles, while James was the leader of the Jerusalem Church only, actually he was co leader with peter,, so it would stand to reason logically that Paul would reach many more people and have a greater infuence on the growth of the church than Peter or james would.. and this nonsense about Paul being an undercover agent for the Romans is ludicrous at best.. remember paulis responsible for writing over half of the New Testament, approximatle 11 books were written by Paul. Just ask yourself one question, Why dould Rome use Paul as an undercover Cop and then behead him? and don't even try to tell me it was collateral damage thats even more ludicrous than the spy theory.. Assinine theory

Mister D
01-22-2012, 01:55 PM
It's a preposterous theory. That's no swipe at you, MMC. I'm just giving this theory all the credit it deserves.

MMC
01-22-2012, 03:03 PM
Look up the appropriate verses in each bible. The texts are all available online. It's as easy as typing the verses into your search engine.

:laugh: Hehe.....yes but who and what will this discussion lead to. :wink:

Mister D
01-22-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm afraid even to ask what means, bro. :undecided: :grin:

MMC
01-22-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm afraid even to ask what means, bro. :undecided: :grin:


Lets look at the difference of wording. Do you think they changed the terminology due to the Crusades? With respects of the prediction that was given.

Mister D
01-22-2012, 04:30 PM
Lets look at the difference of wording. Do you think they changed the terminology due to the Crusades? With respects of the prediction that was given.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Please no more blog entries. Just quote the passages in question.

Conley
01-22-2012, 04:33 PM
:laugh: Hehe.....yes but who and what will this discussion lead to. :wink:

Who: Satan What: burning in hell for all eternity. :evil:

MMC
01-22-2012, 04:36 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. Please no more blog entries. Just quote the passages in question.

Concerning Ishmael's Brood!
Did they ever discover just how Abraham and Sarai got their hands on some Egyptian Slaves?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Concerning Ishmael's Brood!
Did they ever discover just how Abraham and Sarai got their hands on some Egyptian Slaves?

Paste the verses in question and let's discuss. Dude, I haven't memorized the friggin' bible. :laugh:

MMC
01-22-2012, 05:47 PM
Paste the verses in question and let's discuss. Dude, I haven't memorized the friggin' bible. :laugh:

Okay bro.....I will have to try and find the King James Version we have round here somewheres. I got the International out in the Open. So I will put that one up first.

First is the issue of where Abram is able to buy or take in Egyptian slaves.

Mister D
01-22-2012, 05:57 PM
Okay bro.....I will have to try and find the King James Version we have round here somewheres. I got the International out in the Open. So I will put that one up first.

First is the issue of where Abram is able to buy or take in Egyptian slaves.

It's online. Find out what chapter and verse. You can probably get a bunch of translations and exegesis on a single site.

wingrider
01-22-2012, 05:57 PM
Concerning Ishmael's Brood!
Did they ever discover just how Abraham and Sarai got their hands on some Egyptian Slaves?

Hagar was given to Sarah as a handmaid by the king of Egypt. it is in Genesis 12:11–20).

some school of though on this is that Hagar was actually the daughter of the Pharoah makeing her of royal blood. and a fitting second wife to Abraham.. and also a line that future kings would spring from.. this is partially true as most of the sons of Ishmael were princes in the arabian and sinai area.

MMC
01-22-2012, 06:11 PM
From the New International Version.....Hagar and Ishmael.

Genesis 16 6-18. Hagar flees from the mistreatment by Sarai.....verse states,

The angel of he Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8/ And he said Hagar servant of Sarai where have you come from, and where are you going? Im running away from mymistress Sarai she answered. 9/ Then the Angel of Lord told her Go back to your Mistress and submit to her. 10/ The Angel added, I will so increase your descendents that they will be to numerous to count. 11/ The Angelof he Lord also said to her:

You are now with child and you will have a son.
You shall namehimIshmael for the Lord has heard of your misery.

12. He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be raised against everyone and everyone's hand aginst him,
and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers.

We can take it from there brutha......do you notice some issues here? What would you see as a basic general argument to this description of what is taking place here?

Just whom is this wild donkey of a man whom will be against all his brothers and all else and all else against him.....eh?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 06:14 PM
I don't know, MMC. What do you think? Did you look up what biblical scholars have to say?

MMC
01-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Now how can they tell me about this Angel that visited Hagar the Egyptian to tell her that she will bare Ishmael and who will be a wild donkey of man. Just how does an Egyptian become an Arab?

MMC
01-22-2012, 06:29 PM
What does the KJV state these descendants will be?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 06:35 PM
Now how can they tell me about this Angel that visited Hagar the Egyptian to tell her that she will bare Ishmael and who will be a wild donkey of man. Just how does an Egyptian become an Arab?

Who is the father?

Anyway, here is an idea. What is your argument or theory? Let us have it and I'll let you know what I think.

MMC
01-22-2012, 06:53 PM
Who is the father?

Anyway, here is an idea. What is your argument or theory? Let us have it and I'll let you know what I think.


Abram is the Father.....but what does that have to do with this Angel that finds her? Also what would a mixture of Hebrew and Egyptian have to do with any Arabs? How do they know this is an Angel and not the Satan they speak of?

Also since it is Hortar and this Angel that are the only two present. How do they get this information that this Angel appeared out of Nowheres? No name.....appears out of the blue and says I am an Angel of the Lord and tells her her brood will be against all of mankind? All due to her Mistreatment by Sarai.

Plus if she was Royalty from the Egyptians then how would she become a slave?

wingrider
01-22-2012, 07:03 PM
What does the KJV state these descendants will be?

And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Abdeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, and hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, and thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren. Genesis 25:7-18

Although God had wanted Abraham to wait for the son of promise of the Annointed One the Christ or Messiah for God to give him birth in his time and miraculously Abraham still wanted God to bless Ishmael who was the son of Abraham and the Egyptian Hagar. Hagar was the maidservant of Abraham's wife Sarah and Abraham lost patience with God to have the son of promise through Sarah and tried to immediately give birth to what he thought would be the son of promise through Hagar who was not barren as Sarah. Although God said the son of promise was Isaac and not Ishmael God agreed to still bless Ishmael and his descendants by promising to make of him a great nation. This happened historically when the exiled Ishmael went with Hagar to Arabia and intermarried with people of other tribes there and generally assimilated them as Arabs.
http://www.spiritandtruthministries.org/Spirit%20and%20Truth%20Ministries/Nations%20Bible%20Prophecy/Ishmael%20and%20Descendants.html

MMC
01-22-2012, 07:15 PM
Thanks for that WR.....and the Angel? Also wasn't it Sarai who sent her maidservant to Abram/Abraham. She also flees due to mistreatment and the UNRighteous acts commited against her by Sarai. I do think the KJV is a bit different with the translation on what type of man.

Don't get me wrong I do understand the Brews Interpretation of said events. What would you say the timeline is at this point?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 07:23 PM
Abram is the Father.....but what does that have to do with this Angel that finds her? Also what would a mixture of Hebrew and Egyptian have to do with any Arabs? How do they know this is an Angel and not the Satan they speak of?

Also since it is Hortar and this Angel that are the only two present. How do they get this information that this Angel appeared out of Nowheres? No name.....appears out of the blue and says I am an Angel of the Lord and tells her her brood will be against all of mankind? All due to her Mistreatment by Sarai.

Plus if she was Royalty from the Egyptians then how would she become a slave?

Because the bible states that it is an angel, MMC, and if Abram is the father and the child is 1/2 Semitic while presumably marrying women of Semitic stock where is the fire?

Dude, what is the point of all this?

wingrider
01-22-2012, 07:24 PM
just off the top of my head i think the timeline is about 2000 BE or about 4000 years ago

here ya go

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_abraham.html



2081
Abram marries Hagar
85-86
Sarai suggests that Abram take her maidservant Hagar and have children by her. Hagar conceives and Sarai becomes jealous of her. Fleeing from Sarai’s mistreatment Hagar meets the angel of the Lord at a spring in the desert and he persuades her to return, promising that she would have a son named Ishmael who would be the father of a nation (Gen. 16).



2080
Birth of Ishmael
86-99
Scripture us silent about the events of Abram’s life for 13 years after the birth of Ishmael. When he was 99 years old the Lord gave Abram the covenant of circumcision and changed his name From Abram (exalted father) to Abraham (father of many). Sarai was now to be known as Sarah and would bear Abraham a son and heir (Gen. 17).

MMC
01-22-2012, 08:01 PM
Because the bible states that it is an angel, MMC, and if Abram is the father and the child is 1/2 Semitic while presumably marrying women of Semitic stock where is the fire?

Dude, what is the point of all this?


Dude it is just a discussion. I started a discussion to get something going or would you rather sit around seeing a post like every hour or so? Or no one posting anything up at all. One can discuss whatever they want with the Bible. Or do you always feel some need to try to prove me wrong with something I am bringing up. Why do you feel I am oppressing Christianity or something? Why because the Bible says it is an Angel. How does that sound dude. Hey the Bible says so. :rollseyes:

I think for myself.....and don't just blindly believe nor follow anything that is said or written to me. That something sheep do and live a life doing!

Its kinda of like this see.....I was locked-up for 6yrs. So what do you think I did. I read! Studying books after books of religious material. Christians, Muslim, Hindu, Vedantism, Buddhism, Zorastrainism, the Gods of Tribes American and African. The Sumerians, The Egyptians, Shinto Priests. The Pharisees, Zadok and The Essenes, the Greeks, the Roman. The Lost Scrolls. Eckankar. The Chinese and the studying of religions. You name it. Books the Bible missing yeah I know about them. What the Roman Catholic Church and things they have pulled. I read them. Knowing about other Seers at the time and writings, yeah I have read some. Including letters of Romans that were in the Army and around the ME at that time.

So books like the Bible, The Koran, Bhagvagita, the Mahabrahata, The Tibetian Book of the Dead, The Doctrine of Numbers, Numerology, Symbology, The Zodiac, Wheel of Samsara, The Wheel of Awagawan, Books on the Root races. Books on Revelations. Tribes that have come and gone. World History, Ancient History, Eastern and Western Civilizations I and II. I like to to talk about, discuss, question, and listen to what others say and describe about their religon.

Elibe
01-22-2012, 08:04 PM
what did u get locked up for?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 08:20 PM
MMC, I'm only asking that you make sense. You take a part of a story from the bible and then question if that is what really happened. What do you have to go on other than what the bible tells you? That's where the story is found, MMC. Seriously? You can say that you don;t believe the story or whatever but questioning the details of the story as if they might be different than what the author wrote doesn't make any sense.

The bible is a fascinating document and one cannot understand western civilization without some background in the bible. There are plenty of great "bible discussions" that we could have but this stuff is pointless drivel.

MMC
01-22-2012, 08:21 PM
what did u get locked up for?

For assulting and permanently injuring a Police Officer.....and with the intent to do bodily harm on a Law Enforcement Official. They had me hooked up for attempt murder to. But my CO and former instructor helped out with that.

So I had Assualt Charges, and with the use of a deadly weapon and the intent charge. Nun-chucks!

Elibe
01-22-2012, 08:27 PM
ok i will stop arguing with you

whatever you say lol

MMC
01-22-2012, 08:32 PM
MMC, I'm only asking that you make sense. You take a part of a story from the bible and then question if that is what really happened. What do you have to go on other than what the bible tells you? That's where the story is found, MMC. Seriously? You can say that you don;t believe the story or whatever but questioning the details of the story as if they might be different than what the author wrote doesn't make any sense.

The bible is a fascinating document and one cannot understand western civilization without some background in the bible. There are plenty of great "bible discussions" that we could have but this stuff is pointless drivel.


I already brought that point home with the Greek and Latin Translations of the Torah. But now questioning the Brews and what they are describing and their take on things is not pointless drivel. Course I am not approaching the discussion from a Bible Study's perspective. So there really doesnt have to be any formatted orderly discussion about it. Questioning what the Christians and their Churches took from Brews also applies.

MMC
01-22-2012, 08:36 PM
ok i will stop arguing with you

whatever you say lol


I was young and stupid.....although afterwards and when I got out.....they didnt mess with me and when they had to.....they knew they had to come deep. :wink:

Mister D
01-22-2012, 08:50 PM
I already brought that point home with the Greek and Latin Translations of the Torah. But now questioning the Brews and what they are describing and their take on things is not pointless drivel. Course I am not approaching the discussion from a Bible Study's perspective. So there really doesnt have to be any formatted orderly discussion about it. Questioning what the Christians and their Churches took from Brews also applies.

Orderly and formatted is not what I'm asking you for. I'm asking you to make sense. So far you haven't. What precisely is your point? Focus and explain yourself. Please, no more walls of text. Just focus on something and stop with the scatter brain BS. What have the "Brews" interpreted? What is your question about this interpretation. Be specific.

MMC
01-22-2012, 08:54 PM
What's so hard to understand about where do they get the Angel from or to answer any questions. How many question marks do I need to put up?

Mister D
01-22-2012, 09:04 PM
What's so hard to understand about where do they get the Angel from or to answer any questions. How many question marks do I need to put up?

Where did they get Hagar from? Abram? The well? WTF? What is your point!

MMC
01-22-2012, 09:10 PM
You know what Fuck it D.....just shut down the the fucking thread and we wont discuss it. Alright......I don't want burst that bubble of yours anyways.

Wow a book written by a specific group of people because they said so.....remember that shit when you discuss anything else.

wingrider
01-22-2012, 09:55 PM
that book as you put it is history.. it tells the story of the Hebrew people from Abraham to Jesus christ.. it only applies to those of us that have accepted christ and try to live by the rules and promises made in that book. if you try to apply any of the principles to any other group you will meet with frustration and anger,, I would also point out the Book is historically and archeologically 100 percent accurate,, to even try to argue or point out what the book is , is pointless, a person either accepts it or rejects it .. there is no middle ground.

MMC
01-22-2012, 10:05 PM
Yep.....just like the Koran and the Muslims and the Hindus and their books. As well as the Sumerians did for their people. Like Zorastor did for the Persians too! For those people and all who believe in their religions too.

wingrider
01-23-2012, 08:32 AM
Yep.....just like the Koran and the Muslims and the Hindus and their books. As well as the Sumerians did for their people. Like Zorastor did for the Persians too! For those people and all who believe in their religions too.

with one major exception. all those other books teach salvation by works, only the bible as written by God offers salvation by grace, through the sacrifice of Christ for the remission of sins. Christ didn't come to earth because he needed us, He came because we needed him without Christ and his sacrifice there is no reconciliation with God.

Mister D
01-23-2012, 09:01 AM
You know what Fuck it D.....just shut down the the fucking thread and we wont discuss it. Alright......I don't want burst that bubble of yours anyways.

Wow a book written by a specific group of people because they said so.....remember that shit when you discuss anything else.

If you could talk about the book rationally it would be fine but apparently you can't. Was it really an angel? How do we know it wasn't Elvis? They can't get anything by you, MMC.

Mister D
01-23-2012, 09:02 AM
Yep.....just like the Koran and the Muslims and the Hindus and their books. As well as the Sumerians did for their people. Like Zorastor did for the Persians too! For those people and all who believe in their religions too.


Yeah, and? Is that the point here? The bible was written by men so you therefore don't believe? Wow.

wingrider
01-23-2012, 09:20 AM
Yeah, and? Is that the point here? The bible was written by men so you therefore don't believe? Wow.

here is a suggestion for those who doubt and have issues with the bible and how it was written.. If people don't like what it has to say.. Don't read it.. it seems pretty simple to me. God is not demanding that anyone read His word or belive it, that is why we have free will we can either trust in God and his gift to us or we can reject it and pay the consequences for our actions. Now please understand this isn't directed at anyone in particular . it is just an observation on my part..

Mister D
01-23-2012, 09:36 AM
here is a suggestion for those who doubt and have issues with the bible and how it was written.. If people don't like what it has to say.. Don't read it.. it seems pretty simple to me. God is not demanding that anyone read His word or belive it, that is why we have free will we can either trust in God and his gift to us or we can reject it and pay the consequences for our actions. Now please understand this isn't directed at anyone in particular . it is just an observation on my part..

At least make a real atempt to understand what you're reading if you want to discuss it.

wingrider
01-23-2012, 09:40 AM
right and don't let your personal bias interfere to broadly with your conceptions.

Now as a believer that God is the Author of the bible and Men wrote as He gave them inspiration, I kind of disqualify myself on the grounds that I am already biased towards Gods point of view.

Mister D
01-23-2012, 09:52 AM
right and don't let your personal bias interfere to broadly with your conceptions.

Now as a believer that God is the Author of the bible and Men wrote as He gave them inspiration, I kind of disqualify myself on the grounds that I am already biased towards Gods point of view.

That's a decisionj you have to make. Do you believe this is the word of God or not. That said, at least read it and make a genuine attempt to understand what the author is trying to say. This is a work of theology as well as history.

wingrider
01-23-2012, 09:53 AM
That's a decisionj you have to make. Do you believe this is the word of God or not. That said, at least read it and make a genuine attempt to understand what the author is trying to say. This is a work of theology as well as history.


well said... thank you

MMC
01-24-2012, 12:43 AM
with one major exception. all those other books teach salvation by works, only the bible as written by God offers salvation by grace, through the sacrifice of Christ for the remission of sins. Christ didn't come to earth because he needed us, He came because we needed him without Christ and his sacrifice there is no reconciliation with God.

Thanks WR.....for pointing out how a Christian believes. In talking with Muslims it's quite amazing that they say the same thing. But then point out how Christians like to worship Crosses, pray to Mary and Saints. While they Look to the Sun. Then in talkin with some Hindus. They feel the same way. So while it is a perspective that you give for those that are Christians and what and how they believe. It does not change the fact that those of other religions beleive the same exact way as Christians do.

Also the Sumerians writings never dealt with Salvation thru Works. Nor did the Egyptians. As a Matter of fact there are several other civilizations that do not deal with no such thing. Which is a fact and cannot be disputed.

MMC
01-24-2012, 01:08 AM
here is a suggestion for those who doubt and have issues with the bible and how it was written.. If people don't like what it has to say.. Don't read it.. it seems pretty simple to me. God is not demanding that anyone read His word or belive it, that is why we have free will we can either trust in God and his gift to us or we can reject it and pay the consequences for our actions. Now please understand this isn't directed at anyone in particular . it is just an observation on my part..


Here is an observation on my part.....as well as other Scholars even. The Hebrews took from those in the area what they were told long before they even knew how to write. The other fact is.....it has nothing to do with liking or not liking to read the Bible.

wingrider
01-24-2012, 04:34 AM
Thanks WR.....for pointing out how a Christian believes. In talking with Muslims it's quite amazing that they say the same thing. But then point out how Christians like to worship Crosses, pray to Mary and Saints. While they Look to the Sun. Then in talkin with some Hindus. They feel the same way. So while it is a perspective that you give for those that are Christians and what and how they believe. It does not change the fact that those of other religions beleive the same exact way as Christians do.

Also the Sumerians writings never dealt with Salvation thru Works. Nor did the Egyptians. As a Matter of fact there are several other civilizations that do not deal with no such thing. Which is a fact and cannot be disputed.


but the egyptians worshiped many gods as did the sumerians,, they had a pantheistic society, it wasn't until the Hebrews that god was defined as monothiestic,

wingrider
01-24-2012, 04:38 AM
Thanks WR.....for pointing out how a Christian believes. In talking with Muslims it's quite amazing that they say the same thing. But then point out how Christians like to worship Crosses, pray to Mary and Saints. While they Look to the Sun. Then in talkin with some Hindus. They feel the same way. So while it is a perspective that you give for those that are Christians and what and how they believe. It does not change the fact that those of other religions beleive the same exact way as Christians do.

Also the Sumerians writings never dealt with Salvation thru Works. Nor did the Egyptians. As a Matter of fact there are several other civilizations that do not deal with no such thing. Which is a fact and cannot be disputed.

here is the main difference between islam and christianity although islam is derived from both the hebrew torah and the Christian faith it was subverted.. When you talk to a christian about his faith he will try his best to lead you to Christ , gently most of the time but sometimes bluntly although he will use words only to convince you.. A muslim if they cannot convert you will cut your head off.. big differnce don't ya think..

also on the hindus they to worship many gods

MMC
01-24-2012, 06:29 AM
Does this change the fact they they believe just as devoutly as a Christian does about his religion? Or are you saying that they do not believe as much as the Christian Religion does?

Trust me I know the differences. I also know when it comes to Esoteric Knowledge.....there is knowledge that is meant for the masses. That there is more knowledge given to the adept or acolyte, and then there is even more knowledge given to the High Priest or Master. Knowledge that the masses never recieve. Knowldge that the adept or acolyte does not recieve. I also know that the Brews religious caste accepted certain writings from certain people while throwing out other writings that were by those same very people. All due to who was in power. Not because those writings were not relevant.

Mister D
01-24-2012, 08:56 AM
Does this change the fact they they believe just as devoutly as a Christian does about his religion? Or are you saying that they do not believe as much as the Christian Religion does?

Trust me I know the differences. I also know when it comes to Esoteric Knowledge.....there is knowledge that is meant for the masses. That there is more knowledge given to the adept or acolyte, and then there is even more knowledge given to the High Priest or Master. Knowledge that the masses never recieve. Knowldge that the adept or acolyte does not recieve. I also know that the Brews religious caste accepted certain writings from certain people while throwing out other writings that were by those same very people. All due to who was in power. Not because those writings were not relevant.

No. Why do you ask?

Nonsense. Is everything a conspiracy to you?

MMC
01-24-2012, 12:55 PM
The first part of the answer was in response to WR as those other religions believe in their path just as the Christians do. As in response to what he described for those that are Christian.

No need for a conspiracy. As the entire planet is learning......that this region of the World was not the Cradle of Civilization. None can dispute the Brews were Nomadic before they settled into that region. Course taking from those all around them. Even Jewish Scholars admit to them being Nomadic.

Mister D
01-24-2012, 12:59 PM
The first part of the answer was in response to WR as those other religions believe in their path just as the Christians do. As in response to what he described for those that are Christian.

No need for a conspiracy. As the entire planet is learning......that this region of the World was not the Cradle of Civilization. None can dispute the Brews were Nomadic before they settled into that region. Course taking from those all around them. Even Jewish Scholars admit to them being Nomadic.

What does any of this have to do with the Mid East being the cradle of civlization?

MMC
01-24-2012, 02:15 PM
What does any of this have to do with the Mid East being the cradle of civlization?

All Parts are relevant when concering any civilization. Can't just pick and choose which ones mean something. Or Don't!

Mister D
01-24-2012, 02:25 PM
All Parts are relevant when concering any civilization. Can't just pick and choose which ones mean something. Or Don't!


What are you talking about?

wingrider
01-25-2012, 12:28 AM
ummm I guess my teachers in grade school were wrong ... for years they taught that civilization began in the mesopotamian valley,

you know the place where the tigress and the euphrates rivers come together.. oh well next thing you know it will be that civilization acctually started at the north pole and moved south because of inclimental weather patterns. go figure.

Conley
01-25-2012, 12:48 AM
ummm I guess my teachers in grade school were wrong ... for years they taught that civilization began in the mesopotamian valley,

you know the place where the tigress and the euphrates rivers come together.. oh well next thing you know it will be that civilization acctually started at the north pole and moved south because of inclimental weather patterns. go figure.

Yeah, I thought the same and that it was well established?

MMC
01-25-2012, 01:54 AM
ummm I guess my teachers in grade school were wrong ... for years they taught that civilization began in the mesopotamian valley,

you know the place where the tigress and the euphrates rivers come together.. oh well next thing you know it will be that civilization acctually started at the north pole and moved south because of inclimental weather patterns. go figure.


Yeah I was taught the same in school. Including College. That was until they discovered several cities that are over 10k old. Thus leaving that theory where, now?

Mister D
01-25-2012, 09:11 AM
Yeah I was taught the same in school. Including College. That was until they discovered several cities that are over 10k old. Thus leaving that theory where, now?

Cities over 10K years old have been known for decades. Jericho, for example, was first inhabited circa 9000 BC making it 11K years old.

Mister D
01-25-2012, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I thought the same and that it was well established?

It is. It is believed that the movement to sedentary settlements first occurred in the Levant around 12000 BC

Conley
01-25-2012, 09:51 AM
It is. It is believed that the movement to sedentary settlements first occurred in the Levant around 12000 BC

Thanks D, good to know.

Mister D
01-25-2012, 09:56 AM
Of course the oldest currently inhabited city is no where near that old. I think it's Damascus in Syria?

Conley
01-25-2012, 09:58 AM
Interesting...all those years of civilization and they're still barely civilized. :grin:

Mister D
01-25-2012, 10:02 AM
Interesting...all those years of civilization and they're still barely civilized. :grin:

:laugh: Some argue Islam set them back!

MMC
01-25-2012, 01:42 PM
In 2007-2008 Lithuianian Archs discovered what they are saying.....are the oldest Settlements found. Located in the Mandesh. This would be located in Afghanistan in Ghor.

Damascus is often claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and evidence of settlement in the wider Barada basin dating back to 9000 BC exists. However within the area of Damascus there is no evidence for large-scale settlement until the second millennium BC.

Jericho- Traces of habitation from 9000 BC. Fortifications date to 6800 BC (or earlier), making Jericho the earliest known walled city.

Recent Discoveries in Turkey and India are pushing back the timeline by 2000-2500yrs. Before anything begins in Mesopatmia. They believe they have now found the Cituy of Varanasi believed to be the Home of Lord Shiva. They also just discovered another city under the ocean right off the Coast of Pakistan. They believe this is the City of Lord Krishna. Another city was discovered in the Indus Valley. 7500 BC, no walls, another that predates that Jewish History!

Satellite Imagery of the land mass underneath the Indian Ocean and Connecting to the African Shelf has now shown Structures under the Ocean. In which this land mass would have sunk before the flood. Structures all believed to predate anything coming out of the ME. Problem is they can't get to them.....Yet!

Recently in Turkey they just discovered a Holy Site or Temple.....dating back 12k leaving the Brews and Jericho miles and miles behind on the timeline. A group of people before the Copper age building and creating stone works without the use of so called tools. As they still have not found any. Yet is clear they have had to had some sort of tools to carve what they did.

Then there is Tenochtitlan in Mexico. 13k and with areas dating back over to 17k. Some they cannot even get a reading on.

Then there is PumaPunku in Boliva carbon 14 dating goes back 17k and then the readings go off the charts.

The evidence is starting to stack up.....and it looks like the Jews are looking a bit light on that history with facts and truth! Not surprising tho!

Pendragon
01-25-2012, 01:46 PM
In order to establish who has the earliest civilization it is necessary to first define what one considers a civilization. There exists a gradient between nomadic tribes, the earliest colonies, and the later developing villages.

Mister D
01-25-2012, 01:49 PM
In 2007-2008 Lithuianian Archs discovered what they are saying.....are the oldest Settlements found. Located in the Mandesh. This would be located in Afghanistan in Ghor.

Damascus is often claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and evidence of settlement in the wider Barada basin dating back to 9000 BC exists. However within the area of Damascus there is no evidence for large-scale settlement until the second millennium BC.

Jericho- Traces of habitation from 9000 BC. Fortifications date to 6800 BC (or earlier), making Jericho the earliest known walled city.

Recent Discoveries in Turkey and India are pushing back the timeline by 2000-2500yrs. Before anything begins in Mesopatmia. They believe they have now found the Cituy of Varanasi believed to be the Home of Lord Shiva. They also just discovered another city under the ocean right off the Coast of Pakistan. They believe this is the City of Lord Krishna. Another city was discovered in the Indus Valley. 7500 BC, no walls, another that predates that Jewish History!

Satellite Imagery of the land mass underneath the Indian Ocean and Connecting to the African Shelf has now shown Structures under the Ocean. In which this land mass would have sunk before the flood. Structures all believed to predate anything coming out of the ME. Problem is they can't get to them.....Yet!

Recently in Turkey they just discovered a Holy Site or Temple.....dating back 12k leaving the Brews and Jericho miles and miles behind on the timeline. A group of people before the Copper age building and creating stone works without the use of so called tools. As they still have not found any. Yet is clear they have had to had some sort of tools to carve what they did.

Then there is Tenochtitlan in Mexico. 13k and with areas dating back over to 17k. Some they cannot even get a reading on.

Then there is PumaPunku in Boliva carbon 14 dating goes back 17k and then the readings go off the charts.

The evidence is starting to stack up.....and it looks like the Jews are looking a bit light on that history with facts and truth! Not surprising tho!


MMC, you just proved me right about Jericho and Turkey. Thanks for that. we may ignore the Ancient Aliens stuff. As for the "Brews", you seem to be having qute an argument with yourself. I sure hope you win. lol

MMC
01-25-2012, 02:48 PM
Guess you can't read either.....anything built before 7k. Leaves your Brews and their History as just another notch on the timeline.

Albeit, one much later in time than the hoped for beliefs of the dazed and confused.

Hence your difficulty in understanding the mandesh. Oh and archeologists have known about the site in Mexico for decades that that carbon dating was older than 13k. There is no dispute on the carbon testing. Same testing that was done on Jericho! :rollseyes: lmao!

Mister D
01-25-2012, 03:26 PM
Guess you can't read either.....anything built before 7k. Leaves your Brews and their History as just another notch on the timeline.

Albeit, one much later in time than the hoped for beliefs of the dazed and confused.

Hence your difficulty in understanding the mandesh. Oh and archeologists have known about the site in Mexico for decades that that carbon dating was older than 13k. There is no dispute on the carbon testing. Same testing that was done on Jericho! :rollseyes: lmao!


Again, you don't seem to understand that Genesis isn't taken as literal history. How many times must this be pointed out?

Thanks for provng me right abut Turkey and Jericho!

MMC
01-25-2012, 03:50 PM
NP with validating what is already known. The better part is validating what was always known but never put out there until the age of computers.....huh?

Maybe not by the Christians it isnt'. Now the Brews thats a different story. If such was not the case they wouldn't be arguing the fact that the towers of Jericho were built 4000yrs before the Egyptians built the Pyrmaids. Course The Egyptians dispute this fact. As do all other countries when determining the oldest cities.
Its funny, really. It is very hard to discover which ancient city is the oldest and one of the main reasons for this is that so many countries and areas want to claim (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#) this fact without regard to scientific findings. There are many ancient cities still occupied today in many lands, especially in the middle east and all seem to claim their city as the oldest. Syria alone has several. Another problem is that is very hard to find records that date back to ancient times or none exist at all. If you find the ruins of an ancient city and they are claimed to be from 6,000 B.C. how do you substantiate this? That is the problem facing archaeologists studying this problem.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Europe/World-s-oldest-Copper-Age-settlement-found/Article1-626425.aspx

A "sensational" discovery of 75-century-old copper tools in Serbia is compelling scientists to reconsider existing theories about where and when man began using metal. Belgrade - axes, hammers (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#), hooks and needles - were found interspersed with other artefacts from a settlement that burned down some 7,000 years ago at Plocnik, near Prokuplje and 200 km south of Belgrade.

Scientists had previously believed that the mining, extraction and manipulation of copper began in Asia Minor, spreading from there. With the find in Plocnik, parallel and simultaneous developments of those skills in several places now seem more likely, Pernicka said.

This is one of the Newer ones as well!

Which is why the shift is to settlements before the advent of cities. The other way they substantiate this is thru carbon 14 testing and Radon testing.

Mister D
01-25-2012, 03:52 PM
So you were just validating what is already known but denying it at the same time? OK.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:04 PM
No.....I am saying your history of Genesis regardless of you taking it literally or not.....doesnt matter, doesnt matter.....if Christians believe it or not. The Jews do believe it!!!!!! Regardless of your rambling on!!!!!

Moreover of your limited response concerning Mexico and Puma Punku.....even tho they used the same testing they did on Jericho, leaves you looking a bit light on the side of facts now doesnt it. Both are older than anything you knew about. Moreover your failure to understand what is coming out of India and Pakistan has nothing to do with Turkey or Syria or Israel and Mesopotamia. Now does it?

Mister D
01-25-2012, 04:10 PM
No.....I am saying your history of Genesis regardless of you taking it literally or not.....doesnt matter, doesnt matter.....if Christians believe it or not. The Jews do believe it!!!!!! Regardless of your rambling on!!!!!

Moreover of your limited response concerning Mexico and Puma Punku.....even tho they used the same testing they did on Jericho, leaves you looking a bit light on the side of facts now doesnt it. Both are older than anything you knew about. Moreover your failure to understand what is coming out of India and Pakistan has nothing to do with Turkey or Syria or Israel and Mesopotamia. Now does it?

No, the ancient Hebrews didn;t write history as you understand it. No one in the ancient Neear East did. It's a Greek custom.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:20 PM
Still don't change the fact that the Jews think Civilization and God started with them.

Steven Sagel Look<<<<< They were Wrong!!!!!

Plus many.....many Christians believe it as well!


They were.....Also......WRONG!!!!!

Mister D
01-25-2012, 04:20 PM
Still don't change the fact that the Jews think Civilization and God started with them.

Steven Sagel Look<<<<< They were Wrong!!!!!

Plus many.....many Christians believe it as well!


They were.....Also......WRONG!!!!!

Most Jews and Christians don't think that, MMC.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:27 PM
I say they do.....and have been for around 25 yrs before you were even born! Perhaps now that they have become a bit more educated with technology and all. They might be waking up! If this is the case then all I can say is......bout fucking time!

Mister D
01-25-2012, 04:31 PM
I say they do.....and have been for around 25 yrs before you were even born! Perhaps now that they have become a bit more educated with technology and all. They might be waking up! If this is the case then all I can say is......bout fucking time!

I don't care how long you've been around. Again, most Christians and Jews do not believe that.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:38 PM
And I give two shits if you don't care how long I have been around. So fucking what! Must be due to the fact that I have been around them longer than you have, plus have had to put up with more of their shit than you have. Thats a Fact Jack!

Mister D
01-25-2012, 04:40 PM
Most Christians and Jews don;t believe that stuff, Jack! Take that to the bank daddyo! :grin:

Conley
01-25-2012, 04:43 PM
MMC I don't want to add fuel to the fire but what do you mean that most Christians believe civilization started with them? Honestly I have not come across that.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Most Christians and Jews don;t believe that stuff, Jack! Take that to the bank daddyo! :grin:


I did growing up all around them.....taking them to the bank, that is! :wink:

Mister D
01-25-2012, 04:48 PM
I did growing up all around them.....taking them to the bank, that is! :wink:

I'm sorry that you have such a dislike for religious people. That's sad.

MMC
01-25-2012, 04:58 PM
MMC I don't want to add fuel to the fire but what do you mean that most Christians believe civilization started with them? Honestly I have not come across that.

I meant that they believe it started with the Brews.....not themselves as Christians.

Conley
01-25-2012, 04:59 PM
I meant that they believe it started with the Brews.....not themselves as Christians.

Ahh, I get it now. Thanks.

MMC
01-25-2012, 05:01 PM
Man-made Relgions.....come and go. Whats between Man and God/Creator has nothing to do with being religious.

wingrider
01-26-2012, 01:13 AM
Ahh, I get it now. Thanks.

actually NO civilization did not start with the Hebrews, civilization is at least 2000 years older than the hebrew race a carefull study of Genesis will show you that it started back in the days before noah and continured on from there, it wasn't until Abraham circa 2000 BC that the hebrew race was even started,

Mister D
01-26-2012, 09:00 AM
See, MMC? Not even biblical literalists and fundamentalists believe what you claim they believe.