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Alyosha
10-21-2013, 10:14 AM
Peter1469

I am not a contracts person so can you tell me if this is challenge-worthy?

http://rt.com/usa/obamacare-native-american-insurance-333/


The US government has treaty obligations to care for the well-being of Native Americans, but may soon abandon many of its legal responsibilities. President Obama’s health care reform will force thousands of Native Americans to purchase their own health insurance or pay a minimum fine of $695 to the Internal Revenue Service. Indian health advocacy groups estimate up to 480,000 people will be affected, AP reports.


Only those who can prove that they are “Indian enough” will be exempt from the mandate. Native Americans will have to show documentation that they belong to one out of 560 tribes that are federally recognized by the US Bureau of Indian Affairs.
There are more than 100 US tribes that are recognized by states, but not the federal government. Members of these tribes would no longer receive the free or subsidized healthcare that they are guaranteed by the Indian Health Service (IHS), which is a division within the US Department of Health and Human Services.


“This could lead to some tribal citizens being required to purchase insurance or face penalties even though they are covered by the HIS,” Rep. Tom Cole, a Republican congressman and member of the Chickasaw Nation tribe, told AP.


Additionally, Native Americans who do not have documentation of their tribe membership will be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine. This becomes particularly troublesome for Native Americans under the age of 18, since many tribes only provide official membership to adults. Even if both parents of the minors are members, their healthcare coverage may not apply to their children unless they also have the proper documentation.


The health care reform would also complicate the situation for Native Americans who live in metropolitan areas or suburbs. Some tribal governments require members to live on the reservation to gain documentation, which few people do. Nearly two-thirds of American Indians and Alaska Natives currently live in cities, which hinders their ability to receive membership cards from their tribes.


News of the restrictions that Obamacare will impose upon American Indians has sparked outrage, particularly among those who will face financial consequences due to something that is out of their control.


“I’m no less Indian than I was yesterday, and just because the definition of who is Indian got changed in the law doesn’t mean that it’s fair for people to be penalized,” Liz DeRouen, a Native American who usually receives healthcare at a government-funded clinic in North Carolina, told AP. “If I suddenly have to pay for my own health insurance to avoid the fine, I won’t be able to afford it.”

junie
10-21-2013, 10:24 AM
The definition of Indian in the Affordable Care Act is roiling emotions on reservations and in native enclaves across the country, but U.S. Department of Health and Human Services spokeswoman Erin Shields said the agency is powerless to change it without an act of Congress.

...


The IRS is working with the definition but has not yet decided how the agency will verify who qualifies as Indian or assess the penalty on tax returns, agency spokesman Eric Smith said. The IRS and U.S. Treasury have scheduled a May 29 public hearing on their proposed rules establishing who qualifies for an exemption from the insurance coverage requirement.


Republican Rep. Tom Cole, a member of the Chickasaw Nation in Oklahoma and one of just two federal legislators who are members of a federally recognized tribe, said he was aware of the concerns and would ensure that care for native people was not compromised as the health overhaul rolls out. He declined to comment about whether he would sponsor a bill to address the issue.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57584676/

nic34
10-21-2013, 10:40 AM
Natives should be able to find help here:

http://www.ihs.gov/GeneralWeb/HelpCenter/CustomerServices/FAQ/

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 10:49 AM
Natives should be able to find help here:

http://www.ihs.gov/GeneralWeb/HelpCenter/CustomerServices/FAQ/


I'm still not seeing it, I'm just wondering (hence why asking Pete) if they cannot challenge under the treaties.

Ravi
10-21-2013, 10:50 AM
Why were non-natives being covered under IHS to begin with?

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 10:51 AM
The definition of Indian in the Affordable Care Act is roiling emotions on reservations and in native enclaves across the country, but U.S. Department of Health and Human Services spokeswoman Erin Shields said the agency is powerless to change it without an act of Congress.

...


The IRS is working with the definition but has not yet decided how the agency will verify who qualifies as Indian or assess the penalty on tax returns, agency spokesman Eric Smith said. The IRS and U.S. Treasury have scheduled a May 29 public hearing on their proposed rules establishing who qualifies for an exemption from the insurance coverage requirement.


Republican Rep. Tom Cole, a member of the Chickasaw Nation in Oklahoma and one of just two federal legislators who are members of a federally recognized tribe, said he was aware of the concerns and would ensure that care for native people was not compromised as the health overhaul rolls out. He declined to comment about whether he would sponsor a bill to address the issue.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57584676/

Yes, but I'm not sure they are powerless. Treaties are law and those treaties pre-exist. Peter1469 am I wrong or right? Been doing criminal so long I don't know.

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 10:52 AM
Why were non-natives being covered under IHS to begin with?

They were not non-natives. They are genetically native Americans, per article.

nic34
10-21-2013, 10:55 AM
Rarely is Indian Affairs involved in tribal enrollment and membership matters. Tribal enrollment is considered an internal matter governed by the tribe in accordance with its rules. Each tribe determines whether an individual is eligible for membership, and each tribe maintains its own enrollment records, including records on past members. To obtain information about your eligibility for membership, you must contact the tribe rather than Indian Affairs.

http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/text/idc-002619.pdf

Ravi
10-21-2013, 10:58 AM
They were not non-natives. They are genetically native Americans, per article.
They had genetic testing done? From what the article says, the ones that are affected belong to tribes not recognized by the federal government.

Mister D
10-21-2013, 11:01 AM
Rarely is Indian Affairs involved in tribal enrollment and membership matters. Tribal enrollment is considered an internal matter governed by the tribe in accordance with its rules. Each tribe determines whether an individual is eligible for membership, and each tribe maintains its own enrollment records, including records on past members. To obtain information about your eligibility for membership, you must contact the tribe rather than Indian Affairs.

http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/text/idc-002619.pdf


Didn't the Cherokee kick all the blacks out recently? :grin:

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 01:14 PM
They had genetic testing done? From what the article says, the ones that are affected belong to tribes not recognized by the federal government.

And previously they were given free health care by state governments that did recognize them and now they will not. Did you not bother to read? Wait. NVM.

Peter1469
10-21-2013, 01:24 PM
It looks like 3 main groups are affected:
- Those natives whose tribes are not recongized by the federal government
- Those natives living in cities- off the reservations.
- Those under the age of 18 (not really tribal members until then per the article.)

It looks to me that the problem seems to be rooted in the definition of native American in the new ACA regulations. If that new definition is different enough from the meaning in the relevant treaties, and conduct of the US and Indian nations since 1787, then they can likely challenge the new regulations (likely using the Administrative Procedure Act).

Also they could likely take their case to several UN panels, although I am not sure whether that would be binding on the US or not.

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 01:26 PM
It looks like 3 main groups are affected:
- Those natives whose tribes are not recongized by the federal government
- Those natives living in cities- off the reservations.
- Those under the age of 18 (not really tribal members until then per the article.)

It looks to me that the problem seems to be rooted in the definition of native American in the new ACA regulations. If that new definition is different enough from the meaning in the relevant treaties, and conduct of the US and Indian nations since 1787, then they can likely challenge the new regulations (likely using the Administrative Procedure Act).

Also they could likely take their case to several UN panels, although I am not sure whether that would be binding on the US or not.

I did some research on this and they are those tribes which we did not first declare war on officially and then sign a treaty with as a government, ie states have their own treaties with the "indian" nation.

Ravi
10-21-2013, 01:43 PM
And previously they were given free health care by state governments that did recognize them and now they will not. Did you not bother to read? Wait. NVM.

Yes, I read. I asked why were non-natives covered by IHS to begin with?

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Yes, I read. I asked why were non-natives covered by IHS to begin with?

It even says in the article they are native americans, not non-natives. Their tribes had treaties with states, not the federal government, but because of the states deals with the BIA negotiated prior to, they are allowed access to hospitals because of their native status.

Please read next time. "Genetic natives" means they are natives, not non-natives.

Ravi
10-21-2013, 01:51 PM
It even says in the article they are native americans, not non-natives. Their tribes had treaties with states, not the federal government, but because of the states deals with the BIA negotiated prior to, they are allowed access to hospitals because of their native status.

Please read next time. "Genetic natives" means they are natives, not non-natives.

So I can claim to be a Native American and go to the IHS and get free health care. Sweet!

junie
10-21-2013, 01:54 PM
So I can claim to be a Native American and go to the IHS and get free health care. Sweet!


or you could always join one of those Christian ministry groups... :cool2:

http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/

Mister D
10-21-2013, 01:55 PM
or you could always join one of those Christian ministry groups... :cool2:

http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/

Pssst...it's not free.

junie
10-21-2013, 01:57 PM
Pssst...it's not free.


and...? is that an utterly clueless personal attack i smell?

Mister D
10-21-2013, 01:59 PM
and...? is that an utterly clueless personal attack i smell?

It's not free and that wasn't a personal attack. Sheesh...do words mean anything to you guys?

So do you have a problem with these Christian initiatives?

junie
10-21-2013, 01:59 PM
i think it's all a big conspiracy to get all of us to go back to church! :laugh:



It’s Christians Helping Christians---and It Works!
Learn (http://mychristiancare.org/exemption.aspx) how Christians are EXEMPT from the mandates in the Healthcare Reform Law.

Peter1469
10-21-2013, 02:00 PM
I did some research on this and they are those tribes which we did not first declare war on officially and then sign a treaty with as a government, ie states have their own treaties with the "indian" nation.

I am surprised that the Federal government let the states enter into their own treaties. Oh well, those non-federal tribes may have to also look into the States as potential defendants, depending on what the treaties provide.

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:00 PM
So I can claim to be a Native American and go to the IHS and get free health care. Sweet!

No, there are 100 tribes which are state recognized and not federal. Previously if you were a member of that tribe you still received health care.

Actually, nevermind, this was for Peter not you. Keep on with the snarking. You seem to think this thread is something it is not and are being disagreeable to be disagreeable.

Fine, be Senator Warren all you want. Go apply. Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks Peter1469 for the opinion.

Ravi
10-21-2013, 02:00 PM
or you could always join one of those Christian ministry groups... :cool2:

http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/
LOL! That sounds like a scam though maybe it's just the way they wrote their web page. And how un-Christian of them not to treat alcohol or drub abuse.

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:00 PM
I am surprised that the Federal government let the states enter into their own treaties. Oh well, those non-federal tribes may have to also look into the States as potential defendants, depending on what the treaties provide.

I am, as well, but I will assume it is because we never recognized them as "nations".

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:02 PM
LOL! That sounds like a scam though maybe it's just the way they wrote their web page. And how un-Christian of them not to treat alcohol or drub abuse.

Does this have anything to do with the legal aspects of treaties? Or is this another chance for Ravi and the Mean Girls to snark Christians?

Mister D
10-21-2013, 02:02 PM
No, there are 100 tribes which are state recognized and not federal. Previously if you were a member of that tribe you still received health care.

Actually, nevermind, this was for Peter not you. Keep on with the snarking. You seem to think this thread is something it is not and are being disagreeable to be disagreeable.

Fine, be Senator Warren all you want. Go apply. Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) for the opinion.

No, Ravi just says stupid things and then goes into defense mode. Why not just think before you post?

Ravi
10-21-2013, 02:02 PM
No, there are 100 tribes which are state recognized and not federal. Previously if you were a member of that tribe you still received health care.

Actually, nevermind, this was for Peter not you. Keep on with the snarking. You seem to think this thread is something it is not and are being disagreeable to be disagreeable.

Fine, be Senator Warren all you want. Go apply. Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) for the opinion.How was my question snark? WHY would the IHS, a federal program, provide health care to people that the federal government doesn't recognize as Native Americans? You can't even see the potential for abuse here, can you?

Mister D
10-21-2013, 02:02 PM
Does this have anything to do with the legal aspects of treaties? Or is this another chance for Ravi and the Mean Girls to snark Christians?

Right. :rollseyes:

Ravi
10-21-2013, 02:09 PM
And previously they were given free health care by state governments that did recognize them and now they will not. Did you not bother to read? Wait. NVM.

btw, this post of yours is where the snark began. You began it, not I. You're welcome.

Peter1469
10-21-2013, 02:10 PM
No, there are 100 tribes which are state recognized and not federal. Previously if you were a member of that tribe you still received health care.

Actually, nevermind, this was for Peter not you. Keep on with the snarking. You seem to think this thread is something it is not and are being disagreeable to be disagreeable.

Fine, be Senator Warren all you want. Go apply. Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) for the opinion.

No problem:

They can certainly sue..., others have in the past. The Small Business Agency has a program to benefit Native Alaskan Firms which allows the Federal Government to sole source contract awards to Native Alaskan companies- the program was created after they sued the feds in court and won, based on treaty violations. The court told the government to come up with some sort of "reparations." Thus the creation of this program.

It has been greatly abused and Congress has passed some laws to tighten it up.

junie
10-21-2013, 02:11 PM
Does this have anything to do with the legal aspects of treaties? Or is this another chance for Ravi and the Mean Girls to snark Christians?


you are the one being mean and snarky while pointing fingers as if you aren't, which must be a typical 'mean girl' tactic, i'm sure...

ravi was just being humorous as usual, which evidently is quite a challenging concept for a mean 'girl'? like you!

ps i AM a Christian. :laugh:

zelmo1234
10-21-2013, 02:12 PM
It will be interesting, With all of the power being concentrated in the federal government, they may very well find out that they are not a Native American!

I wonder if they will have to remove their names from the petition of native Americans that want the Washington Redskins to Change their name?

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:38 PM
ravi was just being humorous as usual, which evidently is quite a challenging concept for a mean 'girl'? like you!



Humor should be obvious. If I called someone a used cokewhore it would only be funny if they were a nun. As for you and her:

http://www.dragofficial.com/uploads/1/9/3/9/19395567/1119598_orig.gif

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:39 PM
No problem:

They can certainly sue..., others have in the past. The Small Business Agency has a program to benefit Native Alaskan Firms which allows the Federal Government to sole source contract awards to Native Alaskan companies- the program was created after they sued the feds in court and won, based on treaty violations. The court told the government to come up with some sort of "reparations." Thus the creation of this program.

It has been greatly abused and Congress has passed some laws to tighten it up.

This is one area of the law which I find "unusual" because they are "nations" but not nations, and so while some are treated like a foreign nation in some respects, others are treated almost like "mini states" or "sovereign cities".

Peter1469
10-21-2013, 02:41 PM
This is one area of the law which I find "unusual" because they are "nations" but not nations, and so while some are treated like a foreign nation in some respects, others are treated almost like "mini states" or "sovereign cities".

Yes, it is a strange system.....

Alyosha
10-21-2013, 02:43 PM
btw, this post of yours is where the snark began. You began it, not I. You're welcome.

It's a question asking you if you bothered to read the article because it seemed as if you hadn't. Snark would be implying you cannot read.

You're welcome.

http://i.imgur.com/6LbSVuM.gif

roadmaster
10-21-2013, 02:52 PM
Well I will quote them: It's just the second, third and fourth coming of the same old cavalry.

roadmaster
10-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Why were non-natives being covered under IHS to begin with? If you are a 1/4 you can been seen as a Native American. Too many children were taken from them and placed into foster homes with others. Then you have some groups the government doesn't qualify such as the ones south east in NC.