This is Cruel and I don't "Get" it at all

[Matty]

Right on the streets of NYC? WTF?




http://www.woodstocksanctuary.org/2013/09/chickens-rescued-from-kapparot-rituals-find-sanctuary/

[jillian]

Right on the streets of NYC? WTF?


http://www.woodstocksanctuary.org/2013/09/chickens-rescued-from-kapparot-rituals-find-sanctuary/

I wouldn't do it.

and as you note from the article, it's not widely done.

people who practice santaria do some strange stuff with chickens, too.

blurred line between freedom of religion and societal judgment about the practice

[Matty]

I wouldn't do it.

and as you note from the article, it's not widely done.

people who practice santaria do some strange stuff with chickens, too.

blurred line between freedom of religion and societal judgment about the practice





Isn't there some sort of city ordinance that can shut that down? Damn it's one thing to slaughter chickens to eat but as a ritual? come on!

[jillian]

Isn't there some sort of city ordinance that can shut that down? Damn it's one thing to slaughter chickens to eat but as a ritual? come on!

i doubt there are laws against killing chickens in a ritual fashion. but i wouldn't know for sure. and, if you believe your salvation depends on it, is killing a chicken for that really different than killing it for food? i'm not condoning it and i've never met anyone who actually does that.... but seems to me, dead is dead. it's like people who won't eat meat but wear leather.


fwiw, i don't think there are supposed to be any animal sacrifices at all until the temple is rebuilt. so i don't like it anyway.

[Matty]

i doubt there are laws against killing chickens in a ritual fashion. but i wouldn't know for sure. and, if you believe your salvation depends on it, is killing a chicken for that really different than killing it for food? i'm not condoning it and i've never met anyone who actually does that.... but seems to me, dead is dead. it's like people who won't eat meat but wear leather.


fwiw, i don't think there are supposed to be any animal sacrifices at all until the temple is rebuilt. so i don't like it anyway.





as you know I"m agnostic, but my mind tells me if there is a god, a chicken is one of "god's" creatures, I don't understand people who think cruelty to one of god's creatures is a way to salvation. Again, if you have to kill an animal to eat and to survive that's one thing, but to do it in the name of 'god' as a ritual that's not right

[Ravi]

Right on the streets of NYC? WTF?




http://www.woodstocksanctuary.org/2013/09/chickens-rescued-from-kapparot-rituals-find-sanctuary/
Don't come to Miami, the ritual sacrifices of chickens will make you mad.

[junie]

Don't come to Miami, the ritual sacrifices of chickens will make you mad.


if those chickens can make their way south, they could find refuge in the safe haven of key west! :)




the City of Key West to provide rescue, medical care, re-homing and adoption services for the protected feral chickens of Key West.

http://www.keywestwildlifecenter.org/chickens.html

[Matty]

Don't come to Miami, the ritual sacrifices of chickens will make you mad.



I don't want to hear any more bullshit about the starving masses in America as long as this shit is allowed to go on.

[jillian]

as you know I"m agnostic, but my mind tells me if there is a god, a chicken is one of "god's" creatures, I don't understand people who think cruelty to one of god's creatures is a way to salvation. Again, if you have to kill an animal to eat and to survive that's one thing, but to do it in the name of 'god' as a ritual that's not right

well as much as i see what you're saying. and by modern standards, certainly i don't beieve in cruelty. but if you look at ancient judaism, an awful lot of the ritual revolved around animal sacrifice. i'm pretty sure the priests at what was sacrificed after, though. it's just banned until the temple is rebuilt, so ritual like you posted about surprises me.

but there are fundies of all stripes...

[Matty]

well as much as i see what you're saying. and by modern standards, certainly i don't beieve in cruelty. but if you look at ancient judaism, an awful lot of the ritual revolved around animal sacrifice. i'm pretty sure the priests at what was sacrificed after, though. it's just banned until the temple is rebuilt, so ritual like you posted about surprises me.

but there are fundies of all stripes...






Jillian, is this true or not?



​The use of chickens as kaporos is cruel. The birds suffer when being held with their wings pinned backward, swung over the heads of practitioners, and in being packed in crates, often for days without food or water leading up to the ritual. All these actions violate
tsa’ar ba’alei chaim
, the mandate prohibiting cruelty to animals.

[jillian]

Jillian, is this true or not?



​The use of chickens as kaporos is cruel. The birds suffer when being held with their wings pinned backward, swung over the heads of practitioners, and in being packed in crates, often for days without food or water leading up to the ritual. All these actions violate
tsa’ar ba’alei chaim
, the mandate prohibiting cruelty to animals.

as i said. i've heard of this... i don't know anything about it and i wouldn't do it.

and i don't think it comports with jewish law as i know it.

[junie]

Governments regulate ritual slaughter, primarily through legislation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation) and administrative law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_law).

In addition, compliance with oversight of ritual slaughter is monitored by governmental agencies and, on occasion, contested in litigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation).

...


United States The United States is one of the countries that has legislation for protection of shechita (Jewish) and dhabihah (Muslim) ritual slaughter. The Humane Slaughter Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Slaughter_Act) defines ritual slaughter as one of two humane methods of slaughter.[72]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-72)

Since 1958 the United States has prohibited the shackling and hoisting of cattle without stunning them first.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]



In Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah) 508 U.S. 520 (1993), the United States Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) struck down a ban imposed by the City of Hialeah, Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hialeah,_Florida), on Santería (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santer%C3%ADa) religious animal sacrifices practiced by the Church as contravening the religious freedoms guaranteed by the Free Exercise Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Exercise_Clause) of the Constitution of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States). While the City of Hialeah claimed that its ban on ritual slaughter "not for the primary purpose of food consumption" was motivated by concerns for animal welfare and public health, the Supreme Court held that ample evidence showed that it was in fact motivated by animosity to the Santería religion and a desire to suppress it:


That the ordinances were enacted "'because of,' not merely 'in spite of'", their suppression of Santería religious practice is revealed by the events preceding enactment of the ordinances. The minutes and taped excerpts of the June 9 session, both of which are in the record, evidence significant hostility exhibited by residents, members of the city council, and other city officials toward the Santería religion and its practice of animal sacrifice. The public crowd that attended the June 9 meetings interrupted statements by council members critical of Santería with cheers and the brief comments of Pichardo with taunts. When Councilman Martinez, a supporter of the ordinances, stated that in pre-revolution Cuba "people were put in jail for practicing this religion", the audience applauded. Other statements by members of the city council were in a similar vein. For example, Councilman Martinez, after noting his belief that Santería was outlawed in Cuba, questioned, "if we could not practice this [religion] in our homeland [Cuba], why bring it to this country?" Councilman Cardoso said that Santería devotees at the Church "are in violation of everything this country stands for."...Various Hialeah city officials made comparable comments. The chaplain of the Hialeah Police Department told the city council that Santería was a sin, "foolishness", "an abomination to the Lord", and the worship of "demons." He advised the city council that "We need to be helping people and sharing with them the truth that is found in Jesus Christ." He concluded: "I would exhort you . . . not to permit this Church to exist." The city attorney commented that Resolution 87-66 indicated that "This community will not tolerate religious practices which are abhorrent to its citizens . . . ." Similar comments were made by the deputy city attorney. This history discloses the object of the ordinances to target animal sacrifice by Santería worshippers because of its religious motivation.In sum, the neutrality inquiry leads to one conclusion: The ordinances had as their object the suppression of religion. The pattern we have recited discloses animosity to Santería adherents and their religious practices; the ordinances by their own terms target this religious exercise; the texts of the ordinances were gerrymandered with care to proscribe religious killings of animals but to exclude almost all secular killings; and the ordinances suppress much more religious conduct than is necessary in order to achieve the legitimate ends asserted in their defense. These ordinances are not neutral, and the court below committed clear error in failing to reach this conclusionThe Court also found that the city's proffered reasons for its ban simply did not explain or justify it.
Respondent claims that [the ordinances] advance two interests: protecting the public health and preventing cruelty to animals. The ordinances are underinclusive for those ends. They fail to prohibit non religious conduct that endangers these interests in a similar or greater degree than Santería sacrifice does. The underinclusion is substantial, not inconsequential. Despite the city's proffered interest in preventing cruelty to animals, the ordinances are drafted with care to forbid few killings but those occasioned by religious sacrifice. Many types of animal deaths or kills for nonreligious reasons are either not prohibited or approved by express provision.The United States Supreme Court held that animal sacrifice and ritual slaughter were practices protected by the First Amendment's guarantee of religious liberty and that government could not enact targeted legislation suppressing religious practices under a guise of protecting animal welfare or promoting public health.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]



Temple Grandin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin), who is both an animal welfare activist and the leading American designer of commercial slaughterhouses, has outlined techniques for humane ritual slaughter.[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-73)[74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-74) She considers shackling and hoisting of animals for slaughter to be inhumane, and has developed alternative approaches usable in production plants. Grandin has coordinated this with the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Jewish_Law_and_Standards) of the Conservative movement in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_movement_in_the_United_States), and in 2000 the Committee voted to accept her approach, ruling that "Now that kosher, humane slaughter using upright pens is both possible and widespread, we find shackling and hoisting to be a violation of Jewish laws forbidding cruelty to animals and requiring that we avoid unnecessary dangers to human life. As the CJLS, then, we rule that shackling and hoisting should be stopped."[75]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-75)

In an investigation by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals), undercover video was obtained of kosher slaughtering practices at a major kosher slaughterhouse run by Agriprocessors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriprocessors) in Postville, Iowa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postville,_Iowa).[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-76) The methods used there involved clamping the animals into a box which is then inverted for slaughter, followed by partial dismemberment of the animal before it was dead. Those methods have been condemned as unnecessarily cruel by PETA and others, including Grandin and the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, but are endorsed by the Orthodox Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Union),[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-77) which supervises the slaughterhouse. An investigation by the USDA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Agriculture) resulted in some minor operational changes. A lawsuit under Iowa law is pending. Grandin's comment was "I thought it was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen. I couldn't believe it. I've been in at least 30 other kosher slaughter plants, and I had never ever seen that kind of procedure done before. ... I've seen kosher slaughter really done right, so the problem here is not kosher slaughter. The problem here is a plant that is doing everything wrong they can do wrong".[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-78) In 2006 the Orthodox Union, Temple Grandin and Agriprocessors had reportedly resolved their problems.[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-79) In 2008, though, Grandin reported that Agriprocessors had again become "sloppy" in their slaughter operation and was "in the bottom 10%" of slaughterhouses.[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#cite_note-80)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter

[Captain Obvious]

Dammit - now I'm going to have that 311 tune in my head all day.

[junie]

lol 311? i thought it was sublime?

[Green Arrow]

I'm a member of that organization. Those poor chickens...

[shaarona]

Kapparot or kaparos, meaning “atonements,” is a custom in which a chicken or money may be used. Kapparot using chickens is practiced by some Jews shortly before Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. It is not widely observed, but can most commonly be seen in ultra-orthodox communities where the ceremony is held on public streets. The person “swings” the chicken around his or her head while chanting a certain prayer, and the belief is that there is a transference of one’s sins symbolically onto the bird.

(snip)

In 2013′s ceremony it’s estimated that 2000 chickens died in their crates in the neighborhood of Boro Park, Brooklyn, while awaiting this fate. The NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/birds-die-annual-ritual-slaughter-article-1.1454098) reported that these chickens were exposed to temperature extremes without any water or protection. Piled up in crates on the street, they died of starvation, dehydration, exposure, and injury, and then were discarded like trash into garbage bags and dumpsters.

[Captain Obvious]

lol 311? i thought it was sublime?

They all sound the same to me.

:afro:

[Matty]

Kapparot or kaparos, meaning “atonements,” is a custom in which a chicken or money may be used. Kapparot using chickens is practiced by some Jews shortly before Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. It is not widely observed, but can most commonly be seen in ultra-orthodox communities where the ceremony is held on public streets. The person “swings” the chicken around his or her head while chanting a certain prayer, and the belief is that there is a transference of one’s sins symbolically onto the bird.

(snip)

In 2013′s ceremony it’s estimated that 2000 chickens died in their crates in the neighborhood of Boro Park, Brooklyn, while awaiting this fate. The NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/birds-die-annual-ritual-slaughter-article-1.1454098) reported that these chickens were exposed to temperature extremes without any water or protection. Piled up in crates on the street, they died of starvation, dehydration, exposure, and injury, and then were discarded like trash into garbage bags and dumpsters.





Hell if they want to atone for their abominable behavior toward animals just slit their own throats and let the baby chickens go. They are still babies can't you hear them peeping. Animals can smell blood they know when they're being slaughtered. I can't believe in a god that would let this shit go on.

[Dr. Who]

IMO a revolting practice. I believe that NYC and most cities have cruelty to animal laws. Someone's just not on the job, since if you want to find it, it should be obvious to those whose job it is to seek it out.

[roadmaster]

Isn't there some sort of city ordinance that can shut that down? Damn it's one thing to slaughter chickens to eat but as a ritual? come on! Completely against rituals. It was done when Jesus walked this earth but there is no need to ever do it again.

[Chloe]

It's very cruel, but unfortunately it's pretty small scale, tiny scale actually, in comparison to much of the meat industries practices.

[Matty]

It's very cruel, but unfortunately it's pretty small scale, tiny scale actually, in comparison to much of the meat industries practices.



Well shit girl. At least in the meat industry the end result is FOOD. These chickens were killed in the name of god. slaughtered and then bagged up and put in the garbage dump. The 2000 that were'nt slaughters were left in pens in the hot sun with out food or water, they died from heat, overcrowding and dehydration. Always Always leave it to a liberal to minimize cruelty.

[Green Arrow]

I can't believe in a god that would let this shit go on.

I've never understood this mentality. It's just stupid. "God" had nothing to do with it. People do this. What the hell do you expect G-d to do, smite everybody? Then you'd be pissed at him for getting smitey!

[Chloe]

Well shit girl. At least in the meat industry the end result is FOOD. These chickens were killed in the name of god. slaughtered and then bagged up and put in the garbage dump. The 2000 that were'nt slaughters were left in pens in the hot sun with out food or water, they died from heat, overcrowding and dehydration. Always Always leave it to a liberal to minimize cruelty.

Please don't get me wrong I do think that this is extremely cruel and i'm not minimizing it or dismissing it, all I meant was that the meat industry is equally cruel in their own way in comparison. For example, when Thanksgiving comes around millions of turkeys are kept in overcrowded pins, fed all sorts of unnatural food in order to get them fatter faster, exposed to enormous amounts of stress, and then killed just so people can have a turkey for one day, and that's just one example. Animal cruelty exists across the board from religious acts to food consumption.

[Matty]

I've never understood this mentality. It's just stupid. "God" had nothing to do with it. People do this. What the hell do you expect G-d to do, smite everybody? Then you'd be pissed at him for getting smitey!


there is no god don't you get that or are you eaten up with the dumb ass?

[Green Arrow]

there is no god don't you get that

That's what you believe. I believe otherwise. You have just as much proof as I do.

[Ravi]

Damn, I agree with you Willow. What happened to those chickens was evil and against "God" and human decency.

So too is destroying the habitat of the spotted geckos but usually you rightwingnuts don't care about them suffering a gasping death.

Don't even get me started on Scrub Jays.

[Matty]

Damn, I agree with you Willow. What happened to those chickens was evil and against "God" and human decency.

So too is destroying the habitat of the spotted geckos but usually you rightwingnuts don't care about them suffering a gasping death.

Don't even get me started on Scrub Jays.



are spotted gecko's indigenous to FLA? If they are don't blame me. there's another more aggressive lizard that's moved in here in the panhandle that's eradicating every gecko in sight.