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Conley
02-05-2012, 01:27 PM
The Egyptian authorities have referred 19 Americans and two dozen others to face criminal trials, the state media reported Sunday. The move is part of a politically charged investigation into the foreign financing of nonprofit groups that has shaken the 30-year alliance between the United States and Egypt.

The referral flies in the face of increasingly urgent warnings to Egypt’s military rulers from the Obama administration and senior Congressional leaders that the investigation could jeopardize $1.5 billion in American aid expected this year.

Before the money can be released, Congress requires that the State Department certify that Egypt is making progress toward democracy, including respecting the independence of civil groups. The administration and State Department officials have said the investigation represents a failure to meet those criteria.

Among the Americans referred to trial is Sam LaHood, the leader in Egypt of the International Republican Institute. He is the son of Ray LaHood, the United States secretary of transportation and a former Republican congressman from Illinois.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/world/middleeast/egypt-will-try-19-americans-on-criminal-charges.html

Looks like the crap is hitting the fan. Good, cut off the aid and keep that 1.5 B off our debt. What a freakin joke this foreign policy with Egypt has become.

Peter1469
02-05-2012, 01:33 PM
The Muslim Brotherhood is going to get the Egyptian military slaughtered by the Israeli military and there will be another military coup in Egypt.

Conley
02-05-2012, 01:38 PM
The Muslim Brotherhood is going to get the Egyptian military slaughtered by the Israeli military and there will be another military coup in Egypt.

Why would Israel attack Egypt?

Mister D
02-05-2012, 01:43 PM
To Peter's point, how many times do these people have to get their asses handed to them before they learn? The shame of the past really seems to control the Arab mind.

To Conley's, I agree. Let's keep the money. Too late to redeem this situation since we threw our ally under the bus.

Mister D
02-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Why would Israel attack Egypt?

Other way around I think. I can see Egypt breaking its ties with the US and reverting back to its earlier anti-Israel stance.

Conley
02-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Other way around I think. I can see Egypt breaking its ties with the US and reverting back to its earlier anti-Israel stance.

That would be suicide.

Conley
02-05-2012, 01:51 PM
To Peter's point, how many times do these people have to get their asses handed to them before they learn? The shame of the past really seems to control the Arab mind.

To Conley's, I agree. Let's keep the money. Too late to redeem this situation since we threw our ally under the bus.

Seriously, they just don't get it. All the more reason to prevent a nuclear Middle East. These guys can't even manage basic affairs.

BOOMSTICK
02-05-2012, 02:31 PM
Here's a foreign policy - kill em all and let God sort it out

jgreer
02-05-2012, 02:49 PM
Here's a foreign policy - kill em all and let God sort it out

Thats just ignorant. All the US needs to do is figure out who can be trusted and who we should support. All of the Mideast will have nukes in the next 50 years so we will be part of those getting sorted out

Peter1469
02-05-2012, 03:26 PM
Why would Israel attack Egypt?

I wouldn't think that Israel will attack Egypt. My point is that the MB wants to end the peace treaty with Israel and presumably go to war with Israel. The Egyptian military will suffer that decision by the MB.

Conley
02-05-2012, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't think that Israel will attack Egypt. My point is that the MB wants to end the peace treaty with Israel and presumably go to war with Israel. The Egyptian military will suffer that decision by the MB.

Thank Peter. I'm not surprised they want to end the treaty but if they are really considering initiating war with Israel then they're even more unreasonable than I had thought. I suppose you and Mister D are right too that it is difficult to predict the actions of the nations when their leaders don't subscribe to the typical logic (or seemingly any at all).

Mister D
02-05-2012, 03:37 PM
Here's a foreign policy - kill em all and let God sort it out

It was a good t-shirt back in the 80s too. :grin:

Mister D
02-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Thank Peter. I'm not surprised they want to end the treaty but if they are really considering initiating war with Israel then they're even more unreasonable than I had thought. I suppose you and Mister D are right too that it is difficult to predict the actions of the nations when their leaders don't subscribe to the typical logic (or seemingly any at all).

The Arabs seem stuck on the issue of Israel. It just seems to be something they cannot accept psychologically/emotionally.

Conley
02-05-2012, 03:47 PM
The Arabs seem stuck on the issue of Israel. It just seems to be something they cannot accept psychologically/emotionally.

It sure seems to be the case with the leaders they choose to represent them (well, that's maybe not fair considering the lack of democracy). I guess I just have to throw my hands up in the air and say I don't understand. I certainly get the resentment towards Israel and the U.S. but life's not fair and at the end of the day you have to make do with what you've got. Their focus would be better spent trying to improve their living standards before the oil runs dry and they miss their opportunity to have a better life.

Mister D
02-05-2012, 03:52 PM
It sure seems to be the case with the leaders they choose to represent them (well, that's maybe not fair considering the lack of democracy). I guess I just have to throw my hands up in the air and say I don't understand. I certainly get the resentment towards Israel and the U.S. but life's not fair and at the end of the day you have to make do with what you've got. Their focus would be better spent trying to improve their living standards before the oil runs dry and they miss their opportunity to have a better life.

It seems to me that it's less the leaders than it is the public or the proverbial "Arab street". As an outsider, it's hard for me too to understand the level that this is taken too. At the end of the day, how does Israel's existence impact the lives of the vast majority of Arabs? Not at all?

Conley
02-05-2012, 04:00 PM
Right, it doesn't affect their everyday lives at all. That tiny bit of land that was carved out is nowhere near the vast majority of them. What does affect them are governments hoarding the money earned off the natural resources or in cases like Egypt, picking fights with countries that give you billions in aid because you can't even manage your own affairs.

Peter1469
02-05-2012, 04:13 PM
The Arabs seem stuck on the issue of Israel. It just seems to be something they cannot accept psychologically/emotionally.

The Arabs have a huge inferiority conflict. Israel destroyed masses of Arab armies at once. And when they make deals for prisoner swaps they trade hundreds or more for one Israel. They really are a beaten down people.

Mister D
02-05-2012, 04:19 PM
Right, it doesn't affect their everyday lives at all. That tiny bit of land that was carved out is nowhere near the vast majority of them. What does affect them are governments hoarding the money earned off the natural resources or in cases like Egypt, picking fights with countries that give you billions in aid because you can't even manage your own affairs.

If every Jew died tomorrow how would your lives change? I wonder what your average Arab would say?

Mister D
02-05-2012, 04:20 PM
The Arabs have a huge inferiority conflict. Israel destroyed masses of Arab armies at once. And when they make deals for prisoner swaps they trade hundreds or more for one Israel. They really are a beaten down people.

Yeah, it's definitely a deep psychological wound that won't heal.

MMC
02-07-2012, 12:53 PM
That would be suicide.


How so now with Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and Palestine? If Israel went after Egypt. The Bedouin will go after those Egyptian Water and Gas pipelines that flows into Israel. Hezbollah will move out on Israel and so to would Hamas. Just for going after the Egyptians.

MMC
02-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Thats just ignorant. All the US needs to do is figure out who can be trusted and who we should support. All of the Mideast will have nukes in the next 50 years so we will be part of those getting sorted out

Thats an easy one.....Trust none of them in anything they say! Support.....yeah we can throw them a pat on the back. As far as the money goes. Stop all money and military tech to the M.E. one needs to learn that they do not give violent children weapons.

Mister D
02-07-2012, 12:55 PM
How so now with Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and Palestine? If Israel went after Egypt. The Bedouin will go after those Egyptian Water and Gas pipelines that flows into Israel. Hezbollah will move out on Israel and so to would Hamas. Just for going after the Egyptians.


If the gloves come off Hezbollah and Hamas will be buried. Israeli restraint has been crucial to their survival.

MMC
02-07-2012, 01:08 PM
Yeah, but not if Egypt starts lobbing bombs into Israel. Egypt would be able to hit anything in the South while Hamas and Hezbollah will rain rockets down from the north. Moreover the Bedouin Are not really aligned to any foreign country and it has been Egypt that has been preventing them from making serious attacks on those pipelines. If Egypt was to turn their eyes away from that effort. Israel will certainly suffer.

Still this goes to show this Admins faliure. Right now Repubs should be attacking Obama on this issue. but they cannot as they are as deeply vested in this endeavor of Nation building and Infrastructure. Both Johnny Quest McCain and Graham backed Kerry on this legislation.

We should grab those Egyptian Generals.....telling them I wouldn't plan on going anywheres real soon. Moreover I would move them to more accomadating surroundings and introduce them to some of our more enhanced aspects of questioning. Just so we have the Egyptian Military, the MB and their full attention!

Mister D
02-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Israel will exterminate the Bedouin too. If the gloves come off these guerilla groups can kiss their asses goodbye.

Conley
02-07-2012, 01:17 PM
Israel will exterminate the Bedouin too. If the gloves come off these guerilla groups can kiss their asses goodbye.

This might be another reason for the hawks in Israel to push confrontation. Once war begins Israel will have carte blanche to unload on them.

Mister D
02-07-2012, 01:19 PM
This might be another reason for the hawks in Israel to push confrontation. Once war begins Israel will have carte blanche to unload on them.

Pretty much.

Mister D
02-07-2012, 01:20 PM
I agree with MMC that thios entire situation reveals the incompetency of this administration.

Conley
02-07-2012, 01:30 PM
I don't think U.S. involvement led to Mubarak's ousting. It didn't help but it would have happened regardless. This not an excuse for the inept foreign policy of this administration nor the ones that came before it. Hopefully they learn something from this debacle. Besides, there is no need to invest in Egypt if they are no longer going to be a leader of the Arab world. That area is splintered and fractured, better to wait and know who we are dealing with before sending any more money with no strings attached.

Mister D
02-07-2012, 01:43 PM
Not sure. Universal condemnation of Mubarak must have emboldened the opposition, no?

In terms of foreign policy the lesson, I think, is clear: pushing democracy is not a policy. It's a vague ideal at best.

Conley
02-07-2012, 01:49 PM
Not sure. Universal condemnation of Mubarak must have emboldened the opposition, no?

In terms of foreign policy the lesson, I think, is clear: pushing democracy is not a policy. It's a vague ideal at best.

I agree with your first statement but my sense was that the U.S. was just going along with the chorus same as in Libya. We didn't start it, we were just followers. That too is a failure of policy. If we had kept our mouths shut I still don't think Mubarak would have been able to remain in power.

MMC
02-07-2012, 01:51 PM
I don't think so Mubarak would have had the Egyptian Military on his side. The only reason they jumped shit was due to US influence and the protests for Democracy. After watching what happened in Tunisia. They played both side of the Fence. Thats whats happend here with the Egyptian Military. Moreover the radicals gained in the lower house with the MB gaining the majority.

This is ridiculous and a direct slap in our face. The only reason everyone is treading softly is over that damn Suez Canal and due to the Egyptians control of it. Wasn't that a Another British screw up? Or we involved in that too?

Mister D
02-07-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't think so Mubarak would have had the Egyptian Military on his side. The only reason they jumped shit was due to US influence and the protests for Democracy. After watching what happened in Tunisia. They played both side of the Fence. Thats whats happend here with the Egyptian Military. Moreover the radicals gained in the lower house with the MB gaining the majority.

This is ridiculous and a direct slap in our face. The only reason everyone is treading softly is over that damn Suez Canal and due to the Egyptians control of it. Wasn't that a Another British screw up? Or we involved in that too?


Tht was all on us. The British and French seized the Suez. The US refused to support their allies in the UN.

Conley
02-07-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't think so Mubarak would have had the Egyptian Military on his side. The only reason they jumped shit was due to US influence and the protests for Democracy.

I think that would be hard to prove. Besides, it's not as if the U.S. would do anything militarily. The only threat we could make would be suspending foreign aid, which as we've seen doesn't scare them in the least.

MMC
02-07-2012, 02:21 PM
I think that would be hard to prove. Besides, it's not as if the U.S. would do anything militarily. The only threat we could make would be suspending foreign aid, which as we've seen doesn't scare them in the least.


Not really Mubarak had the MB on the ropes in Egypt or at least hding underground.