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Conley
02-09-2012, 07:20 PM
Hat tip to D for bringing it up...

Swedish theologian Krister Stendahl, Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm and the former dean of Harvard Divinity School, offers three rules of engagement when trying to understand faiths other than your own. Space in this column allows reference to only the first: When trying to understand a religion, first ask its adherents.

The question, “Are Mormons Christian?” is a good starting point for this discussion. When some conservative Protestants say Mormons aren’t Christian, it is deeply offensive to Latter-day Saints. Yet when Latter-day Saints assert their Christianity, some of those same Christians bitterly resent it. Why? Because both sides are using the same terms to describe different things.

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/12/are_mormons_christians.html

Keep in mind the author's byline - director of media relations for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 1997

Mister D
02-09-2012, 07:23 PM
I'll check this out. Thanks.


Space in this column allows reference to only the first: When trying to understand a religion, first ask its adherents.

Oh, if only people would follow that advice. It always annoys me when would be critics of the bible, for example, couldn't be bothered to make an effort to understand what they're reading.

Conley
02-09-2012, 07:28 PM
Agreed, and it takes an extra degree of effort to learn about a religion which one is already set against.

wingrider
02-09-2012, 08:07 PM
the only thing I ca say is the Mormon Religion violates scripture especially this admonition from Paul.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

now considering that Joseph smith got his infromation from an angel called Moroni, I can only believe that the Mormon religion contradicts scripture.

roadmaster
02-09-2012, 08:08 PM
Christians have core beliefs. Jesus died for our sins, and in order to be saved you must repent ect.
Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, ect all believe the same core beliefs. You know some people in Scientology call themselves Christians. Even Wicca some call themselves Christians and I will say for sure you can't serve two Masters. They say that not all Mormons are the same and that some do believe the same as we do.
I am going to let God decide the hearts of these men and women.

Mister D
02-09-2012, 08:10 PM
Even some atheists call themselves Christians. :laugh:

roadmaster
02-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Even some atheists call themselves Christians. :laugh:

Actually you are right especially if they are caught doing something wrong. People will say they are religious but what religion? Religious can be many things even witchcraft.

Mister D
02-09-2012, 08:18 PM
You know Rassales? I pressed him on it and he appears to me to be one of those people who calls himself a Christian by virtue of the fact that he tries to follow ethical teachings of Jesus Christ. I don't think he believes in God. He didn't come out and say it but he kept avoiding a direct answer so what was I to conclude?

Mister D
02-09-2012, 08:19 PM
We had another member here way back who had the same mindset.

wingrider
02-09-2012, 08:23 PM
I believe the bible is clear about this,

there are many who will say on the last day, Lord I cast out devils in your name and jesus will say " I never knew you"

you can claim anthing you wish but unless you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and ask him into your heart He doesn't know you.

roadmaster
02-09-2012, 08:25 PM
You know Rassales? I pressed him on it and he appears to me to be one of those people who calls himself a Christian by virtue of the fact that he tries to follow ethical teachings of Jesus Christ. I don't think he believes in God. He didn't come out and say it but he kept avoiding a direct answer so what was I to conclude?

Now you know me by now. I have already called him on it. I tend to say what I feel and sometimes I am not liked very well. :grin:

Mister D
02-09-2012, 08:30 PM
Now you know me by now. I have already called him on it. I tend to say what I feel and sometimes I am not liked very well. :grin:

You and I both, sister! :wink: It's nice not to have hags like TR and Vortex calling me a sexist for calling a woman "sister". :laugh:

roadmaster
02-09-2012, 10:03 PM
You and I both, sister! :wink: It's nice not to have hags like TR and Vortex calling me a sexist for calling a woman "sister". :laugh:

Yea, they will attack for sister but ignore for cornfed, racist, ect and some I won't type.

MMC
02-09-2012, 11:32 PM
Yea, they will attack for sister but ignore for cornfed, racist, ect and some I won't type.

With the likes of those two who are mentioned.....one just need to remind them. Their corn-fed too. The only difference is.....theirs comes in a can! :wink:

CoLibertarian
02-10-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm not the one to judge (it is above my paygrade - hehe) however, I think Jesus' example is rarely followed by many of those who say that they worship him (regardless of what they call their belief system).

CoLibertarian
02-10-2012, 10:22 PM
I would say this:

I would rather go to hell with a bunch of people that follow the example of JC than go to heaven with those who profess belief in God.

Conley
02-10-2012, 10:29 PM
I'd rather go to Heaven myself. Burning in Hell for all eternity would be a drag. I believe in a merciful God. Hope I'm right!

CoLibertarian
02-10-2012, 10:42 PM
I'd rather go to Heaven myself. Burning in Hell for all eternity would be a drag. I believe in a merciful God. Hope I'm right!

If a creator is such that He refuses good people merely because of a professed belief and accepts bad people because of a professed belief - I will happily burn.

Conley
02-10-2012, 10:50 PM
If a creator is such that He refuses good people merely because of a professed belief and accepts bad people because of a professed belief - I will happily burn.

Well luckily for us we won't be in a position to be making that decision (who goes where). We all have our beliefs about God and Hell. I don't believe in Hell but if I did I would expect only the truly evil and unrepentant to go there. We all screw up, the important part is to try to be better. That's my take on it.

CoLibertarian
02-10-2012, 10:55 PM
We all screw up, the important part is to try to be better. That's my take on it.

I find that a very healthy philosophy - and quite Christian (as I see it) too.

Mister D
02-11-2012, 11:18 AM
If a creator is such that He refuses good people merely because of a professed belief and accepts bad people because of a professed belief - I will happily burn.

Most Christians, as far as I know, believe that men are depraved by their very, albeit fallen, nature. There are no "good" men. There is only the grace and love of God.

CoLibertarian
02-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Most Christians, as far as I know, believe that men are depraved by their very, albeit fallen, nature. There are no "good" men. There is only the grace and love of God.

This is why I do not accept Paul as a prophet. That is a Paulian belief. That only through belief (and a very specific one) do we find grace from our "fallen" nature.

The Christians I agree with tend to believe we are made in the image and likeness of God - that we are good.

Mister D
02-11-2012, 02:02 PM
This is why I do not accept Paul as a prophet. That is a Paulian belief. That only through belief (and a very specific one) do we find grace from our "fallen" nature.

The Christians I agree with tend to believe we are made in the image and likeness of God - that we are good.

It's a Hebrew belief. That's why Paul (a devout Jew) held it. It's quite likely that the historical Jesus of Nazareth did as well.

Being in the image of God, as I understand it, has more to do with function than it does likeness in terms of quality or character. The inspired author of Genesis was conveying the idea that human beings are stewards of the physical world. No, I think human depravity has been all too well demonstrated. Mind you, this is less self-abasement than it is a wariness of pride and autonomy. Two things that Jesus Christ preached against.

CoLibertarian
02-11-2012, 02:11 PM
It's a Hebrew belief. That's why Paul (a devout Jew) held it. It's quite likely that the historical Jesus of Nazareth did as well.

Being in the image of God, as I understand it, has more to do with function than it does likeness in terms of quality or character. The inspired author of Genesis was conveying the idea that human beings are stewards of the physical world. No, I think human depravity has been all too well demonstrated. Mind you, this is less self-abasement than it is a wariness of pride and autonomy. Two things that Jesus Christ preached against.

It is possible that JC held that belief, but I don't believe he did. JC seemed to be of a different fabric than most of the Jews around him (which is probably why they killed him). As much as there is human depravity around the world, there is too human kindness and love - only that does not sell as well on T.V. as does the other. Thus were are led to believe that just the bad elements of human kind are around.

I don't "know" about you D, but in my personal life, I experience far more love, kindness, and caring than the other sorts. Thus I have to assume most other people do as well.

Mister D
02-11-2012, 02:29 PM
It is possible that JC held that belief, but I don't believe he did. JC seemed to be of a different fabric than most of the Jews around him (which is probably why they killed him). As much as there is human depravity around the world, there is too human kindness and love - only that does not sell as well on T.V. as does the other. Thus were are led to believe that just the bad elements of human kind are around.

I don't "know" about you D, but in my personal life, I experience far more love, kindness, and caring than the other sorts. Thus I have to assume most other people do as well.

There is a great deal of kindness but I tend to agree with Paul et al about what ultimately rules our hearts: our egos, our pride, our desires etc. Moreover, I doubt most people (religious or not) are conscious of their sometimes selfish motives, their aggression etc. Not long after I became serious about Christianity (that is, once it became less my cultural tradition than my religion) I sometimes prayed that the Holy Spirit would reveal to me the hidden anger, bitterness, and grudges I may be holding but that I'm not conscious of. I had heard a sermon on how those little foxes (Song of Solomon 2:15) can ruin our faith and attempts to live righteously. Long story short: they were there alright. Lots of them. Things began to come to my mind that I haven't thought about in many years that we're still there apparently. It gave me an opportunity to consciously let them go and forgive the people who had wronged me. It also gave me a chance to forgive myself for my part in it all.

Anyway, that's my story for today. :grin:

CoLibertarian
02-11-2012, 09:58 PM
D,

When people express to me that it is only through a certain belief that one can find salvation, that (to me) is an attempt to control, not to lead. To me, JC was not a controller, but a leader. He showed the footsteps a person should strive to follow. To me, those footsteps are not a mission of horrid circumstances that lead to a beautiful salvation but a liberating path wherein one attains heaven at every step.