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View Full Version : St. Augustine, Late Antiquity, and Today



Peter1469
12-27-2013, 07:55 PM
History as it applies today. (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/12/03/augustine_s_world_what_antiquity_tells_us_about_sy ria#sthash.IxM0sKxh.dpbs)

A very interesting article comparing the changes after Rome (Western) ceased to exist with modern America's erosion as an organizing power.


The Pax Romana was a period of relative peace and stability throughout the Greater Mediterranean. But history is often a matter of convulsions. In 200 A.D., the Roman Empire still existed in the shadow of the recently deceased emperor and pagan philosopher Marcus Aurelius -- at a time when, according to Princeton University historian Peter Brown, "a charmed circle of unquestioning conservatives" gave order to the world. Over the next 500 years, however, everything changed.

By 700 A.D., the Roman Empire had disappeared from the map of the West, the Sassanid Persian Empire had vanished from the Near East, Europe had become Christian, and the Near East and most of North Africa had become Muslim. During this era, poor, uneducated, and extremist Christian heretics and sectarians -- Donatists, rabble-rousing monks, and so on -- had dispersed around the Mediterranean basin, burning and terrorizing synagogues and pagan temples, before they themselves were overtaken in North Africa by Arab armies proselytizing a new, more austere religion. Meanwhile, Gothic tribes ravaged Europe, and Asia Minor was on the brink of an epic conflict between Christians who venerated icons and other holy images and those who glorified their destruction. Brown, in the course of a lifetime of scholarly work, gave a name to this pungent epoch in which the world gradually turned upside down: Late Antiquity.


***


The erosion of America's role as an organizing power, which heretofore relied on public acquiescence and the inability of anyone else to challenge the status quo, has disoriented elites in Washington and New York whose own professional well-being is intimately connected with America's proactive involvement abroad. And few developments have been more evocative regarding the sentiment of splendid isolation creeping once again through the American citizenry, or more integral to understanding the weakening of the United States, than Syria.

Syria is the Levant, the geographical core of Late Antiquity. And its disintegration, like the crumbling of Libya, Yemen, and Iraq, along with the chronic unrest in Tunisia and Egypt, signifies not the birth of freedom but the collapse of central authority. Rome could not save North Africa, and the United States will not save the Near East -- for as the opinion polls demonstrate, Americans have had enough of foreign military entanglements. Anarchy, perhaps followed by new forms of hegemony, will be the result.

Mister D
12-27-2013, 10:33 PM
The prophets of modernity's demise abound! Mister D has been rendered speechless. Alcohol is partly to blame but this article is the best I've read in some time! This is "right wing" stuff!

I've learned not to fear the passing of "modernity". It means the survival of the tribes. All of our cultures.

Mister D
12-27-2013, 10:35 PM
Rome, St. Augustine wrote, could never satisfy human hearts: Only the City of God could do that. Thus, as Rome weakened, religiosity intensified.

Well put.

Germanicus
12-28-2013, 04:40 AM
I think we should try to avoid the anarchy.

Peter1469
12-28-2013, 08:51 AM
I think we should try to avoid the anarchy.

Go ahead. The US is out of money.

Mister D
12-28-2013, 10:13 AM
I think we should try to avoid the anarchy.

War is Asia is a distinct possibility.

Peter1469
12-28-2013, 10:24 AM
War is Asia is a distinct possibility.

Perhaps. Tensions are rising, and Japan's militancy is returning after a long hiatus. The lesser Asian nations are forming rough alliances to counter the Chinese bid to expand its sphere of influence. So long as they are not insane enough to invade China, they should accomplish their goals of preventing that expansion.

Mister D
12-28-2013, 10:31 AM
Perhaps. Tensions are rising, and Japan's militancy is returning after a long hiatus. The lesser Asian nations are forming rough alliances to counter the Chinese bid to expand its sphere of influence. So long as they are not insane enough to invade China, they should accomplish their goals of preventing that expansion.

And if we fail to project power there for whatever reason (no money, no will) that will embolden the Chinese. IMO, if there is the prospect for a major war in the 21 Century it's there. I agree that China could be contained. She has a way of alienating her neighbors and uniting otherwise disparate states. Reminds me of Germany...

Peter1469
12-28-2013, 10:38 AM
And if we fail to project power there for whatever reason (no money, no will) that will embolden the Chinese. IMO, if there is the prospect for a major war in the 21 Century it's there. I agree that China could be contained. She has a way of alienating her neighbors and uniting otherwise disparate states. Reminds me of Germany...

US interests in the region lie with keeping the shipping lanes open. Our navy can and should do that. But China is no Germany (I assume you are preferring to pre-WWII Germany). China, like Germany is a land power. However, China's expansionist ambitions are reliant on naval power and logistics capability to sustain expeditionary forces. Two things China is poor at.

Newpublius
12-28-2013, 11:25 AM
I note your avatar Peter, looks like you're in Istanbul (I want to say that is the Blue Mosque, but I know there is another one over there that has a similar appearance, the New Mosque). I was over there once and naturally Americans who do also seem enamored with Roman history as well.

Looking back one of the mistakes that I think that we make with respect to Rome is to overrate Rome itself. The Dominate was politically unstable, a political instability whose source was in the need to placate the Roman military. Debasing the currency was the result and inflation resulted (See: Edict on Maximum Prices). The trade which helped the region flourish was also avenues for plague to spread rapidly, and let's face it we can't mention the end of Rome without mentioning the Goths and Huns.

The big difference in Late Antiquity at Adrianople (now Edirne in modern day Turkey) is that the Goths could arm themselves in a way where they actually had a chance against the Roman legions. That can't happen today because of nuclear weapons, we have actually come from an age of total war (WWII) to an age where limited warfare will return.

America's relative decline is a fact we're just going to learn how to deal with. Frankly we should look forward to it because if there's one thing we should all agree on on this board is that we probably know TOO MUCH about Kandahar. The world doesn't need America to trade with each other. America's percentage of world trade has decreased of course, and the rest of the world has been trading increasingly more with each other.

Historically China may not be a great naval power, but in this sense it doesn't really need to be. They don't need to invade and conquer Taiwan, the Phillipines or Japan, they just need to make sure merchant vessels can come and go to their destination.

The logic behind this is ultimately what fuels the military industrial complex. The defense budget is what? $700bn plus what we spend on veteran's affairs? Lots of money. Our total external trade is about $3 trillion, two important partners being Canada and Mexico (hardly dependent on military security to ensure the trade happens). Military expenditures are about $2K per person and times 4 that's 8K for my family of four.

Mister D
12-28-2013, 12:31 PM
US interests in the region lie with keeping the shipping lanes open. Our navy can and should do that. But China is no Germany (I assume you are preferring to pre-WWII Germany). China, like Germany is a land power. However, China's expansionist ambitions are reliant on naval power and logistics capability to sustain expeditionary forces. Two things China is poor at.

Yes, Germany of the world wars. China's ham-fisted diplomacy reminds me of the Kaiser's.

Keeping the shipping lanes open is in everyone's' interests who support the current liberal, globalist system.

I agree, China's purported interests , if her behavior is any indication, lie in east Asia. For that, she will need sea and air power.

Peter1469
12-28-2013, 02:56 PM
Yes, Germany of the world wars. China's ham-fisted diplomacy reminds me of the Kaiser's.

Keeping the shipping lanes open is in everyone's' interests who support the current liberal, globalist system.

I agree, China's purported interests , if her behavior is any indication, lie in east Asia. For that, she will need sea and air power.

And that will take time to develop.

Mister D
12-28-2013, 03:28 PM
And that will take time to develop.

I didn't realize China was so far behind that regard.

Peter1469
12-28-2013, 03:46 PM
I didn't realize China was so far behind that regard.

They are in sea power and logistics. Their air power won't be much good without carriers or Chinese bases within their fuel range.

Germanicus
12-28-2013, 06:20 PM
Go ahead. The US is out of money.

In worst case you call Martial Law and go to total communism/fascism. I think it will be better. And no democracy. China wont mind.

US can fund the state and all that is needed by creating domestic currency like the Lincoln greenbacks that is only good within US borders. Within 5 years US will be roaring.

China and US can work together. Fuck democracy. Just have one party rule like the CPC. Instead of trying to fool the public the state just tells them. Who the hell do western publics think they are anyway?

But I do not think it will come to that.

edit- nothing will really change. The people recieving QE remain the ruling class. The big companies remain. And they take control of all the small. Overseen by the state. It will be a pretend expropriation because it will be the capitalists doing the expropriating, not commies. Happy happy.

edit- there are some smart people talking about a virtue based society for the future. Philosophy type people.(: To get there America would have to be like a phoenix as far as culture is concerned.

And I think it would be sensible for the USA to be serious with the public and tell them to shut up. For a union to strike at a time like this is unthinkable. How dare they? China is trying to unseat USD from reserve status and all any American seems to care about is their own little problems. It is time to ask not. And instead of a drastic and sudden martial law I think USA should ease into it. The expropriation could be done in a way that fools the public. There are plenty of useless capitalists to expend. Entertainers. Atheletes. The games are degenerate. How dare these entertainers take so much for doing so little? Throw them to the lions. All that should be left is the Conscious Capitalist. Everyone else is taxed into the ground. And their stuff taken due to the economic emergency. Fuck Justin Timberlake. (: See there is plenty of fat to cut. USA is a tulip economy because its all been so easy and with no competition.

When Nixon Shock happened it is really unthinkable that USA would get away with that and keep the Reserve but there was really no nation to take over. Now there is China and the BRICS so the debt of the USA is now a problem. The only way is to work with China which will be easy if USA is genuine. But if USA tries to take on China then I believe China will win. They are too smart. I wouldnt fuck with them. The best way is to bargain with them. They dont even want the responsibility of being leader.

edit-- see China = Octavian, USA = Agrippa. China doesnt really want to lead and in a way cannot just yet. USA and China can work together.

edit- China doesnt really want to have to trust Russia. The Russians cant be trusted. We all know that.

edit- we have GST in Australia and essential items are claimed to be excluded. Or they were supposed to be or something. Essential capitalists can be excluded from the purge. A purification of the US economy that ensures that gains made by America are kept in America. Productivity and real value makes gains for a state. A guy like Justin Timberlake or 50 Cent just encourages people to waste. If people have enough to waste on that fine but the bards do not become Kings. The profit from entertainment goes to the state. Bards are nothing. They will do it for less or someone will. Off with their heads so to speak. What kind of society rewards bards with such riches? They are parasites on the state. The health of a state is paramount. A matter of national security. How can USA allow bards to be the straw that breaks the homelands back? Bards will work for much less. Let them move out of the nation if they want more money but if USA does it then the influence of USA will spread and bards around the world will be prevented from stealing from the rations of the global community.

Many US bards are criminal. Like Lady Gaga and Stone/Parker. These people should be arrested and standards should be put in place to prevent these abominations from emerging in the mainsteam to corrupt our youth ever again. But the bulk of them should just be taxed like hell on an entertainers tax. The income of an entertainer should be capped.


Buddhist and Shinto tradition condemned people who worked as butchers, executioners, and tanners as unclean. They were called the eta.
Another class of social outcasts were the hinin, which included actors, wandering bards, and convicted criminals.


http://asianhistory.about.com/od/japan/p/ShogJapanClass.htm
Why allow the hinin to take so much? Actors. We allow them to live like gods. Isnt it immoral at a time like this?


edit- is South Africa really such a bad place to live? Nor for some. For some it is awesome. The public do not appreciate the effort that western states make for them. They would not understand the lengths that the state must go to to protect the peoples way of life. And look how happy North Koreans are. Chinese people are happy. Why are westerners so cranky?

China and USA would not really be like Octavian and Agrippa. I just mean China is the brains, USA can be the muscle. But niether is leader. It is a global duopoly. Doing its best to work together and transition to equality and prosperity for all. It will take decades to find the correct balance between east and west but that is what the Asian Century will be all about. It will be very democratic without actually having traditional democracy. One partry rule, five year plans. These must be shared by CPC and the Republocrats ( or nobility or whatever ). A global neo-chivalric code should be a priority. The nobility of China is the elites of the CPC. The west needs princelings of our own. (: And nobility. The nobility will begin with old money. Most of the 1 %. The rest is expendable.

1%er (: