Hitler

[roadmaster]

Look like one guy learned a lot from Hitler.:smiley: And I even agree with this guy mostly.

http://youtu.be/GXmERXMOGh4

[Peter1469]

A truther?

[roadmaster]

A truther? I did say mostly but right on about Hitler. And yes the drugs.

[MrJimmyDale]

That is a Nigger.............and I use that term very tightly.

[roadmaster]

That is a Nigger.............and I use that term very tightly. Why do you call him that. I don't agree with everything he said and got his figures wrong but no sense calling him that. He was also right about blacks and what they have achieved. In fact they are being replaced and some are finally seeing this.

[MrJimmyDale]

got his figures wrong
If that is the worst that you could find...........you ain't much smarter

[roadmaster]

If that is the worst that you could find...........you ain't much smarter So you are. 6 million Jews didn't die.

[jillian]

A truther?

a psycho…..

but the holocaust denier loves him.

:cuckoo:

[Guerilla]

He started shaky but then he got the ball rolling. He had a lot of good points. About drugs, American consumerism, potential to feed and care for every person- but don't, a lot of good stuff about propaganda and how it is used even today by the state.

He focuses to much about blacks and had a few far off things to say because of that. He needs to extend to people of every struggle. But he had a lot good points to make.

[jillian]

He started shaky but then he got the ball rolling. He had a lot of good points. About drugs, American consumerism, potential to feed and care for every person- but don't, a lot of good stuff about propaganda and how it is used even today by the state.

He focuses to much about blacks and had a few far off things to say because of that. He needs to extend to people of every struggle. But he had a lot good points to make.

only if you're nuts enough to think that terrorists didn't bring down the twin towers and the holocaust never happened

[roadmaster]

But he had a lot good points to make. Yes he did. I like the one where he said about the lie. Keep saying it and people start believing it.

[Guerilla]

only if you're nuts enough to think that terrorists didn't bring down the twin towers and the holocaust never happened

I was talking about his other points. Their were a lot of good ones.

[roadmaster]

http://youtu.be/aQjNs-Ght8s

It's a big money thing. No one says people were not killed just not how they make it out to be.

[Guerilla]

Yes he did. I like the one where he said about the lie. Keep saying it and people start believing it.

Ya I understood why he kept pointing back to Hitler. Hitler was the master of propaganda and he knew it. You can find a lot of his brainwashing techniques still used by countries today.

He talked about repeating short simple, easy to understand phrases that don't require any thought. Examples of this are "support the troops". This phrase is used by a lot of people to avoid actually discussing if the troops should be there. They simply say "support them".

Another great one is Obama's "change" and "hope" posters. It means absolutely nothing, and some still believe in it. All he had to keep doing was say "We want change" and "It's time for change" and everyone cheered without actually knowing what it means (which was apparently nothing).

[roadmaster]

I am not a supporter of Hitler but History has been altered.

[Chris]

a psycho…..

but the holocaust denier loves him.

:cuckoo:


Why do you say that, jillian, the black guy in the video doesn't deny the Holocaust--didn't listen to it, did you.

[Kabuki Joe]

He started shaky but then he got the ball rolling. He had a lot of good points. About drugs, American consumerism, potential to feed and care for every person- but don't, a lot of good stuff about propaganda and how it is used even today by the state.

He focuses to much about blacks and had a few far off things to say because of that. He needs to extend to people of every struggle. But he had a lot good points to make.


...I think he's the prime example of a modern liberal...paranoid...

[Kabuki Joe]

Ya I understood why he kept pointing back to Hitler. Hitler was the master of propaganda and he knew it. You can find a lot of his brainwashing techniques still used by countries today.

He talked about repeating short simple, easy to understand phrases that don't require any thought. Examples of this are "support the troops". This phrase is used by a lot of people to avoid actually discussing if the troops should be there. They simply say "support them".

Another great one is Obama's "change" and "hope" posters. It means absolutely nothing, and some still believe in it. All he had to keep doing was say "We want change" and "It's time for change" and everyone cheered without actually knowing what it means (which was apparently nothing).


...I think you are a product of what he was complaining about, brainwashed by a society...I think Hitler started off ok but went south towards the end...the only question is why?...power corrupts?...or did he allow himself to be manipulated by certain members of his staff?...none of us know what really happened because we were all taught in the same system he (the black dood) said was (more or less) corrupt...I don't really think he's exceptional in his opinions and he couldn't even remember how much time a kid had at home after 8 hours of school...I doubt he's even as exceptional as other blacks in the US that are pushing the same ideas...in his day and time Hitler was not really that far off with his social views with everyone else...the jews are still hated throughout the world and the gays aren't too far behind them...I figure here in the next 100 years or so it will get very ugly, whether from GOD or just man being man, and there will be a huge "kill off" of the world's population...man is very toxic...

[jillian]

Why do you say that, jillian, the black guy in the video doesn't deny the Holocaust--didn't listen to it, did you.

so when he (and the person you'e defending) said 6 million jews didn't die, he was kidding?

btw, the minute he started ranting about his the government brought down the towers, his usefulness ended.

[Chris]

so when he (and the person you'e defending) said 6 million jews didn't die, he was kidding?

btw, the minute he started ranting about his the government brought down the towers, his usefulness ended.


Uh, jillian, curious why you heard something else. Approximately 4:25 into video he says Hitler killed 6M Jews. And, why do you now say I defend him? Why do you make that up too?

[Alyosha]

Does no one read a post all the way through and apply logic? @Guerilla (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=606) was talking about the man in the video, not Hitler. And yes, all dictators made sense to their publics on the way up. People loved Hitler and Stalin. My great grandma thought Stalin was the shit because he made her feel "Russian", ironic, yes, considering they had to call themselves "Soviets".

When the dark underbelly is kept from you and when you trust your government it's easy to be "pro" with these types of people because they are charismatic.

We have historical hindsight in application to Hitler. Our Jim Crow laws and our anti-sodomy laws were no better than the Nuremberg laws. Hell, the Stonewall riots in NYC were some 30 years later, so even the Holocaust didn't wipe out deathly hate across the globe.

When you have that much trust in government, you believe what they say. The German people had no idea of the final extermination. They just thought, they were leaving on a happy train and were glad to see them go. I'm sure many would have felt the same all over the US if we shipped off the gays in the 50's and 60's or even the 80's.

People need to quit looking for a leader or a government to save them and save themselves.

[undine]

The German people had no idea of the final extermination. They just thought, they were leaving on a happy train and were glad to see them go. Bullshit.

[Alyosha]

Bullshit.

Undine, the vast majority of Germans did not know that they were going off to be killed anymore than the vast majority of Russians knew what the gulags really were or that the majority of Americans knew about the Tuskeegee experiments and what internment camps were like.

Do you have some "evidence" they all knew? I'd be happy to read it.

[Alyosha]

From Jewish sources, undine

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663

Several tabs answer the question that the Germans were happy to believe that they were just being sent away and didn't know, probably didn't want to know, they were being killed.

[Alyosha]

It is that power to ignore those signs of government tyranny that makes it possible. You will ignore it because it is a slow boil.

[Chris]

Hitler seems to bring out the worst in some.

[Alyosha]

Hitler seems to bring out the worst in some.

Yes, you can't talk about him without people turning off. I don't think anyone thinks Hitler was a good guy because in hindsight we know he was a mass murderer. At the time though he pumped up the German economy, gave them a belief system that was pro-German, made everyone feel good (people love to feel good) and so they would ignore those tiny misgivings they had about what lay beneath the surface.

It was all very normal seeming to people and that is the scary part.

It could happen to any nation at any time.

[Polecat]

When I was younger I had trouble understanding how Hitler could command such authority over an entire nation of people. But today I see the same happening here. The promise of prosperity makes the chattel drunk with desire and blind to the truth. Perhaps this time around it will be the Christians that are rounded up for resettlement.

[Chris]

When I was younger I had trouble understanding how Hitler could command such authority over an entire nation of people. But today I see the same happening here. The promise of prosperity makes the chattel drunk with desire and blind to the truth. Perhaps this time around it will be the Christians that are rounded up for resettlement.

It is eerily similar, isn't it. The lure of posperity and security if you just do as I say. Hayek warned about this in The Road to Serfdom.

[undine]

Undine, the vast majority of Germans did not know that they were going off to be killed anymore than the vast majority of Russians knew what the gulags really were or that the majority of Americans knew about the Tuskeegee experiments and what internment camps were like.

Do you have some "evidence" they all knew? I'd be happy to read it.
here is a good place to start http://www.amazon.com/Backing-Hitler-Consent-Coercion-Germany/dp/0192802917

[Chris]

here is a good place to start http://www.amazon.com/Backing-Hitler-Consent-Coercion-Germany/dp/0192802917

What's the book say, ravi, what's the argument, do you know?

[Kabuki Joe]

When I was younger I had trouble understanding how Hitler could command such authority over an entire nation of people. But today I see the same happening here. The promise of prosperity makes the chattel drunk with desire and blind to the truth. Perhaps this time around it will be the Christians that are rounded up for resettlement.

...but the fact is "conquest builds empires"...he had Germany humming, they felt good about themselves for the first time since the loss in WWI...he did great things for everyone except the jews and other social misfits...I know it's not nice but life isn't always nice...funny thing I was contemplating the other day, why is it that Germany always rises above the rest?...look at them now, they are carrying Europe and the only country over there really doing well...it's kind of funny how they get their butts kicked in 2 different wars and yet they still do well...I think they are a very resilient people that's tough enough to keep moving forward no matter how tough it gets...you have to respect them for it...

[undine]

...but the fact is "conquest builds empires"...he had Germany humming, they felt good about themselves for the first time since the loss in WWI...he did great things for everyone except the jews and other social misfits...I know it's not nice but life isn't always nice...funny thing I was contemplating the other day, why is it that Germany always rises above the rest?...look at them now, they are carrying Europe and the only country over there really doing well...it's kind of funny how they get their butts kicked in 2 different wars and yet they still do well...I think they are a very resilient people that's tough enough to keep moving forward no matter how tough it gets...you have to respect them for it...Another admirer of Hilter. Jesus.

[Alyosha]

What's the book say, ravi, what's the argument, do you know?

Ravi? That would make sense.

Well, anyway, undine http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_GBH8sRIAQC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=William+Warde+soldier+memoir&source=bl&ots=xAzrKnhyfX&sig=pgr0NynrdLnZqOlxaRlgAZWd-Po&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G2jZUteuE_LNsQT89IHQAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=William%20Warde%20soldier%20memoir&f=false

^read the memoirs. The Soldiers said that the Germans who were not Nazis swore they didn't know and that the only ones that came close to suspecting lived near the camps.

This has happened in US history, too. What we don't see, we don't believe.

[Kabuki Joe]

Another admirer of Hilter. Jesus.


...I'm not an Arian so I wouldn't fit into his plan...

[undine]

Ravi? That would make sense.

Well, anyway, @undine (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=980) http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_GBH8sRIAQC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=William+Warde+soldier+memoir&source=bl&ots=xAzrKnhyfX&sig=pgr0NynrdLnZqOlxaRlgAZWd-Po&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G2jZUteuE_LNsQT89IHQAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=William Warde soldier memoir&f=false

^read the memoirs. The Soldiers said that the Germans who were not Nazis swore they didn't know and that the only ones that came close to suspecting lived near the camps.

This has happened in US history, too. What we don't see, we don't believe.
You said you would be happy to read something about it and I pointed you in the right direction. I guess you'd rather stick with your own "facts."

I read another interesting article here http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 , and it turns out you almost couldn't throw a rock in Germany without hitting a camp of one sort or another. If you want to believe that the Germans were stupid, be my guest.

[jillian]

Ravi? That would make sense.

Well, anyway, @undine (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=980) http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_GBH8sRIAQC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=William+Warde+soldier+memoir&source=bl&ots=xAzrKnhyfX&sig=pgr0NynrdLnZqOlxaRlgAZWd-Po&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G2jZUteuE_LNsQT89IHQAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=William Warde soldier memoir&f=false

^read the memoirs. The Soldiers said that the Germans who were not Nazis swore they didn't know and that the only ones that came close to suspecting lived near the camps.

This has happened in US history, too. What we don't see, we don't believe.

everyone knew.

and if they said they didn't know the smell of burning flesh, they're liars.

[Alyosha]

You said you would be happy to read something about it and I pointed you in the right direction. I guess you'd rather stick with your own "facts."

Ravi, don't be nasty. I said I'd be happy to read it. Why do you think I won't or didn't?

I also provided for you accounts from soldiers who all were surprised, like you, that the Germans were saying they didn't know. I think that people are happy not to know bad things. That is my WHOLE point, not to let people off the hook, but to put us all on it. We should not be blind about what our governments do. History won't judge us very well for it.

[Alyosha]

everyone knew.

and if they said they didn't know the smell of burning flesh, they're liars.

They probably were liars, jillian. People lie to themselves all the time. Magic happens not because we're too stupid to realize the trick but because our attention gets directed elsewhere and we focus on that, not what he's doing with his other hand.

[Chris]

They probably were liars, jillian. People lie to themselves all the time. Magic happens not because we're too stupid to realize the trick but because our attention gets directed elsewhere and we focus on that, not what he's doing with his other hand.

Everyone knew? When? How long? Knew what? The argument is too simple, and rests on the well poisoning premise they said different they were liars? Not buying it.

[Guerilla]

...I think you are a product of what he was complaining about, brainwashed by a society...I think Hitler started off ok but went south towards the end...the only question is why?...power corrupts?...or did he allow himself to be manipulated by certain members of his staff?...none of us know what really happened because we were all taught in the same system he (the black dood) said was (more or less) corrupt...I don't really think he's exceptional in his opinions and he couldn't even remember how much time a kid had at home after 8 hours of school...I doubt he's even as exceptional as other blacks in the US that are pushing the same ideas...in his day and time Hitler was not really that far off with his social views with everyone else...the jews are still hated throughout the world and the gays aren't too far behind them...I figure here in the next 100 years or so it will get very ugly, whether from GOD or just man being man, and there will be a huge "kill off" of the world's population...man is very toxic...

It wasn't that Hitler started off good and went south, he knew he had to instill that hope and pride in the german people before he could start the wars, otherwise they wouldn't have followed him. It was all apart of the plan. He was bad from the beginning, I think he knew the whole time.


...in his day and time Hitler was not really that far off with his social views with everyone else.. It doesn't matter your views, if you can instill hope, pride, and fear, you can sway the people to be against anything for their safety. You can convince them the enemy is water and they band against it.


.I figure here in the next 100 years or so it will get very ugly, whether from GOD or just man being man, and there will be a huge "kill off" of the world's population...man is very toxic
Man isn't the problem, oversized countries are the problem. For the most part mass atrocities are always started by a government, and their lies and alterior motives.

...So back to the black guy. I stated which points I thought were good earlier. He may be paranoid, but his paranoia has caused him to do a lot of research and make a lot of good observations. Great observations that a not-paranoid-person, or better yet, a complacent person, would never be able to make.

[Alyosha]

You simply cannot discuss Nazi Germany without people glossing over what you're saying and jumping to conclusions.

You'll note that I said that humans will ignore what they want to ignore when they trust the government, that they see what they want to see, and that because of this most Germans didn't know. They were given a reason and they believed the reason.

Look at who voted for the Iraq War in our Congress. How many Iraqis died over that war? They all knew it was bullshit but Bush gave them a reason and like the good statists we are, we'll continue to vote for them because, hey, lesser of two evils.

When we cease to put trust in a government or religion we grow smarter, faster, stronger. We need faith in ourselves and the ability to question without fear.

[The Xl]

No rational conversation will ever be had when speaking of Nazi Germany.

[Chris]

It wasn't that Hitler started off good and went south, he knew he had to instill that hope and pride in the german people before he could start the wars, otherwise they wouldn't have followed him. It was all apart of the plan. He was bad from the beginning, I think he knew the whole time.

It doesn't matter your views, if you can instill hope, pride, and fear, you can sway the people to be against anything for their safety. You can convince them the enemy is water and they band against it.


Man isn't the problem, oversized countries are the problem. For the most part mass atrocities are always started by a government, and their lies and alterior motives.

...So back to the black guy. I stated which points I thought were good earlier. He may be paranoid, but his paranoia has caused him to do a lot of research and make a lot of good observations. Great observations that a not-paranoid-person, or better yet, a complacent person, would never be able to make.



To me the problem with the guy in the video is has taken all he has learned about propaganda and used the same techniques throughout the video to push his own agenda.

[Chris]

No rational conversation will ever be had when speaking of Nazi Germany.

It's Godwin's Law.

[jillian]

They probably were liars, jillian. People lie to themselves all the time. Magic happens not because we're too stupid to realize the trick but because our attention gets directed elsewhere and we focus on that, not what he's doing with his other hand.

they weren't lying to themselves. they were lying to whomever asked.

because civilized people don't put other humans into incinerators.

or did they think 11 million people just moved?

[jillian]

It wasn't that Hitler started off good and went south, he knew he had to instill that hope and pride in the german people before he could start the wars, otherwise they wouldn't have followed him. It was all apart of the plan. He was bad from the beginning, I think he knew the whole time.

think he did? it was all in mein kampf.

[The Xl]

they weren't lying to themselves. they were lying to whomever asked.

because civilized people don't put other humans into incinerators.

or did they think 11 million people just moved?

It's probably somewhat similar to the apathy and delusion our citizens display when it comes to our leaders and military drone striking the shit out of children, engaging in fruitless wars that wind up killing innocents.

To the same exact scale? Nah, probably not, but the concept is the same.

[jillian]

It's Godwin's Law.

what "rational" conversation should be had, chris, in response to some creep saying 6 million jews didn't die in the holocaust?

there is no "discussion" about that or the other 5 million that hitler killed.

and, just to clarify, godwin's law requires hitler or nazis be brought up with regard to a wholly unrelated subject.

this is a thread entitled "Hitler". shocking the topic would be discussed. :rolleyes:

[Guerilla]

they weren't lying to themselves. they were lying to whomever asked.

because civilized people don't put other humans into incinerators.

or did they think 11 million people just moved?
Yes, exactly, they probably did. They believe anything (or ignore anything) to keep a rosy picture of Hitler, because they had, hope, pride, and fear. These things blinded them. It is comparable to religion, and how they believe seemingly ridiculous stuff. That is why statism is so often compared to a religion. The statists seem to ignore seemingly obvious things, in favor of their belief/government.

[Guerilla]

think he did? it was all in mein kampf.

Well I haven't read that yet. Was I right?

[jillian]

Yes, exactly, they probably did. They believe anything (or ignore anything) to keep a rosy picture of Hitler, because they had, hope, pride, and fear. These things blinded them. It is comparable to religion, and how they believe seemingly ridiculous stuff. That is why statism is so often compared to a religion. The statists seem to ignore seemingly obvious things, in favor of their belief/government.

i don't believe it for a second.

they took their belongings.

they took their homes.

they took their artwork

they took their businesses

they knew that they were removed from schools.

they knew what the neuremberg laws were and what they entailed.

they saw them thrown onto trains and shot en mass.

no one didn't know.

[Chris]

they weren't lying to themselves. they were lying to whomever asked.

because civilized people don't put other humans into incinerators.

or did they think 11 million people just moved?


Stop with the pretend/lie defense, jillian. Find some real evidence.

[jillian]

Well I haven't read that yet. Was I right?

it was all in there... in advance. the rest were lies perpetrated by goebbels and company because they knew if anyone actually read mein kampf he'd never get to be chancellor.

[The Xl]

i don't believe it for a second.

they took their belongings.

they took their homes.

they took their artwork

they took their businesses

they knew that they were removed from schools.

they knew what the neuremberg laws were and what they entailed.

they saw them thrown onto trains and shot en mass.

no one didn't know.

What did Americans do about the Japanese internment camps?

[jillian]

Stop with the pretend/lie defense, jillian. Find some real evidence.

of the holocaust?

piss off.

now report me.

and please let us know if you are ever able to discern between reality and the fantasy that goes on in your little head.

[Guerilla]

what "rational" conversation should be had, chris, in response to some creep saying 6 million jews didn't die in the holocaust?

there is no "discussion" about that or the other 5 million that hitler killed.

and, just to clarify, godwin's law requires hitler or nazis be brought up with regard to a wholly unrelated subject.

this is a thread entitled "Hitler". shocking the topic would be discussed. :rolleyes:

Where did he say that? I don't think he said that jews didn't die in the holocaust, though I could be wrong, please point it out to me. His point about the holocaust was that no one cared about 50,000 blacks who were also apart of it.

[jillian]

Where did he say that? I don't think he said that jews didn't die in the holocaust, though I could be wrong, please point it out to me. His point about the holocaust was that no one cared about 50,000 blacks who were also apart of it.

he said six million jews didn't die. which is what the o/p was referring to.

he also claimed it wasn't american soldiers who liberated the camps. except it was... and soviets.

the only black people i know of who were involved were allied soldiers.

the guy started off by saying the gubmint blew up the towers. that should end any normal person's listening to him.

[Chris]

what "rational" conversation should be had, chris, in response to some creep saying 6 million jews didn't die in the holocaust?

there is no "discussion" about that or the other 5 million that hitler killed.

and, just to clarify, godwin's law requires hitler or nazis be brought up with regard to a wholly unrelated subject.

this is a thread entitled "Hitler". shocking the topic would be discussed. :rolleyes:



The man in the video didn't deny the Holocaust, jillian, he acknowledged it but added blacks were killed as well by the Nazis. Buy a hearing aid.

He didn't discuss that because propaganda and its technique, for which he saw Hitler as expert, was his point.


Look up Godwin's Law and learn something too.

[Cigar]

Everyone has a Nut relative that they don't care to claim ... and everyone can say there's a bushel of Nuts who happen to belong to the same race as them.

If this doesn't apply to you, then you're the first on this planet.

Enough said ... :laugh:

[Guerilla]

What did Americans do about the Japanese internment camps?

When I asked my Grandma a while ago about what she thought of gathering up all the Japanese in WWII, she said "Well they bombed us". That was the response, she really didn't see anything wrong, she was about 12 when the war was over. I really wouldn't have expected a different answer from anyone in that time period. Sad that her mind stayed that way though. Some never learn.

[Chris]

What did Americans do about the Japanese internment camps?

Pretty much went along with what the government did.

[The Xl]

When I asked my Grandma a while ago about what she thought of gathering up all the Japanese in WWII, she said "Well they bombed us". That was the response, she really didn't see anything wrong, she was about 12 when the war was over. I really wouldn't have expected a different answer from anyone in that time period. Sad that her mind stayed that way though. Some never learn.

Right, and the Germans probably thought no differently.

The fact of the matter is, humans can be, and usually are, primal, petty, tribal, ruthless creatures.

[The Xl]

Pretty much went along with what the government did.

Exactly.

[jillian]

What did Americans do about the Japanese internment camps?

far less than they should have. and i'd never defend it or the court case that said it was ok.

that said, george takei has lived long and prospered.... and as horrible and unjustifiable as it was, it wasn't genocide.

are you comparing the two? i've read your posts and that doesn't surprise me.... much. but it does a bit.

[Chris]

Where did he say that? I don't think he said that jews didn't die in the holocaust, though I could be wrong, please point it out to me. His point about the holocaust was that no one cared about 50,000 blacks who were also apart of it.

He acknowledged 6M were killed and then, yes, made the point blacks were killed as well.

[Mr Happy]

of the holocaust?

piss off.

now report me.

and please let us know if you are ever able to discern between reality and the fantasy that goes on in your little head.

No, I think he was meaning if anybody actually knew about it.
I can certainly believe that a lot of Germans didn't know about the camps. Most were in other countries. But, then again, to say nobody knew is also disingenuous. A lot of people knew.

[The Xl]

far less than they should have. and i'd never defend it or the court case that said it was ok.

that said, george takei has lived long and prospered.... and as horrible and unjustifiable as it was, it wasn't genocide.

are you comparing the two? i've read your posts and that doesn't surprise me.... much. but it does a bit.

Don't be dense. Most Germans were ignorant to the fact that they were being killed, which would put them in the same boat as Americans who thought the same in regards to the Japanese citizens.

If you're going to insult me, be sure to try and understand the argument I'm making, first. If you aren't smart enough to do so, then you probably shouldn't comment in the first place.

[Alyosha]

they weren't lying to themselves. they were lying to whomever asked.

because civilized people don't put other humans into incinerators.

or did they think 11 million people just moved?

11 million is the total war cost across central Europe--now, don't misunderstand what I'm saying-- losing several million people will trigger questions but I know firsthand that people will still believe the government.

The Soviet Union had even more people go missing and you couldn't have convinced my great grandmother that Stalin was a bad guy. People left. They went to America. They were terrorists. They were _____________. People believed it because they wanted to believe it. Believing the government is less scary than questioning the government.

[jillian]

No, I think he was meaning if anybody actually knew about it.
I can certainly believe that a lot of Germans didn't know about the camps. Most were in other countries. But, then again, to say nobody knew is also disingenuous. A lot of people knew.

that isn't how i read it. and he didn't say it is.

anyone who lived in a city knew. and anyone who lived near the camps knew. and anyone who had jewish neighbors had to know... if for no other reason than they all knew what the neuremberg laws said.

every single person??? probably not. but pretending only the people in the ss knew is disingenuous.

[Chris]

No, I think he was meaning if anybody actually knew about it.
I can certainly believe that a lot of Germans didn't know about the camps. Most were in other countries. But, then again, to say nobody knew is also disingenuous. A lot of people knew.

Right, to say they all knew and that those who said they didn't were liars is nonsense. Some knew, some learned as time went by, but by then, as Alyosha said, the frog had boiled, it was too late. That's what the guy in the video said Hitler was so good at with propaganda. None of which is not to say also that none resisted or helped Jews. It was the same here with Japanese camps. Propaganda is a powerful tool.

[Mr Happy]

that isn't how i read it. and he didn't say it is.

anyone who lived in a city knew. and anyone who lived near the camps knew. and anyone who had jewish neighbors had to know... if for no other reason than they all knew what the neuremberg laws said.

every single person??? probably not. but pretending only the people in the ss knew is disingenuous.

Um, well that was the question he was answering (about who knew, not whether it happened or not)

No doubt a lot of Germans did know, but I'm saying a lot didn't know either. I would argue the vast majority of US citizens didn't know about the Japanese internment camps. They had other things on their mind. Sure, neighbours would have known,but vast tracts of the US had no Japanese people in them and would have been none the wiser.

[jillian]

Right, to say they all knew and that those who said they didn't were liars is nonsense. Some knew, some learned as time went by, but by then, as Alyosha said, the frog had boiled, it was too late. That's what the guy in the video said Hitler was so good at with propaganda. None of which is not to say also that none resisted or helped Jews. It was the same here with Japanese camps. Propaganda is a powerful tool.

that wasn't clear. but funny that you aren't demanding proof from the o/p about how 6 million jews didn't die. you might want to start there if you're worried about truth.

or you could always demand proof from her that the troofer in the video who says the gubmint blew up the towers isn't a tin foil hat type.

but you don't.

because .... oh right.

[Chris]

that isn't how i read it. and he didn't say it is.

anyone who lived in a city knew. and anyone who lived near the camps knew. and anyone who had jewish neighbors had to know... if for no other reason than they all knew what the neuremberg laws said.

every single person??? probably not. but pretending only the people in the ss knew is disingenuous.


Probably not every single person. Over time, more and more, sure. But you claim was everyone knew and if they said they didn't they were liar.

"Pretend" arguments are easy strawmen but pretentious and disingenuous, jillian, especially when no one here pretended that.

[Alyosha]

that wasn't clear. but funny that you aren't demanding proof from the o/p about how 6 million jews didn't die. you might want to start there if you're worried about truth.

or you could always demand proof from her that the troofer in the video who says the gubmint blew up the towers isn't a tin foil hat type.

but you don't.

because .... oh right.

What?

Are you kidding me? I'm not a "troofer", jillian. I made an accurate statement that people believed their government. The US soldiers were flabbergasted that the Germans insisted they did not know.

No one wants to believe their government is torturing people, killing them, etc. That would make them bad for going along with it, or worse targets.

Do you think all of Cambodia knew? Do you think all of the Soviet Union knew? People believe their government. The government is more trustworthy to them than "antigubbermint extremists".

Stalin purged MILLIONS of people in Russia but they were listed as criminals, war victims, terrorists, or they "got their papers" (moved to America). No one wanted to believe they were living beneath the rule of a monster--especially when the propaganda was all shiny, happy people.

They simply didn't know because the horror of the truth is incomprehensible to normal people.

[The Xl]

What?

Are you kidding me? I'm not a "troofer", jillian. I made an accurate statement that people believed their government. The US soldiers were flabbergasted that the Germans insisted they did not know.

No one wants to believe their government is torturing people, killing them, etc. That would make them bad for going along with it, or worse targets.

Do you think all of Cambodia knew? Do you think all of the Soviet Union knew? People believe their government. The government is more trustworthy to them than "antigubbermint extremists".

Stalin purged MILLIONS of people in Russia but they were listed as criminals, war victims, terrorists, or they "got their papers" (moved to America). No one wanted to believe they were living beneath the rule of a monster--especially when the propaganda was all shiny, happy people.

They simply didn't know because the horror of the truth is incomprehensible to normal people.

People always deny the atrocities of the things their government or governments they believe in do. For instance, cite a declassified document, like Northwoods, and Jillian would probably call you a truther. She's also in denial in regards to the atrocities Israel has committed.

[Chris]

that wasn't clear. but funny that you aren't demanding proof from the o/p about how 6 million jews didn't die. you might want to start there if you're worried about truth.

or you could always demand proof from her that the troofer in the video who says the gubmint blew up the towers isn't a tin foil hat type.

but you don't.

because .... oh right.



Why would I demand proof from the man in the video for denying when he acknowledged 6M Jews died in the Holocaust and many blacks?

Nor did I ask you for proof, I simply question your argument that everyone knew and that if they said they didn't they're liars. That's simply a lousy argument, as you even admit to happy.

[roadmaster]

Why would I demand proof from the man in the video for denying when he acknowledged 6M Jews died in the Holocaust and many blacks?

Nor did I ask you for proof, I simply question your argument that everyone knew and that if they said they didn't they're liars. That's simply a lousy argument, as you even admit to happy. No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/

[undine]

You simply cannot discuss Nazi Germany without people glossing over what you're saying and jumping to conclusions.

You'll note that I said that humans will ignore what they want to ignore when they trust the government, that they see what they want to see, and that because of this most Germans didn't know. They were given a reason and they believed the reason.

Look at who voted for the Iraq War in our Congress. How many Iraqis died over that war? They all knew it was bullshit but Bush gave them a reason and like the good statists we are, we'll continue to vote for them because, hey, lesser of two evils.

When we cease to put trust in a government or religion we grow smarter, faster, stronger. We need faith in ourselves and the ability to question without fear.
In my opinion, the Germans didn't ignore because they trusted the Nazi government. They ignored because they wanted a convenient scapegoat to blame their problems on, and Jews fit that for them. They didn't care, in part because the propaganda gave them an escape. Kind of like the frothing anti-Mexican types now. Though I will say, Americans won't stomach rounding up Mexicans and gassing them. Or at least, not most Americans.

[undine]

What did Americans do about the Japanese internment camps?
Nothing. That doesn't excuse what the Germans overlooked, or is it even comparable.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes he did. I like the one where he said about the lie. Keep saying it and people start believing it.

Slaveboys are cute when they play Master. It's like an 8-year-old kid dressing up as a General and giving Patton's speech.

[undine]

Why would I demand proof from the man in the video for denying when he acknowledged 6M Jews died in the Holocaust and many blacks?

Nor did I ask you for proof, I simply question your argument that everyone knew and that if they said they didn't they're liars. That's simply a lousy argument, as you even admit to happy.
She's talking about the PERSON that posted the OP. The "person" that posted the OP said it disagreed that 6 million Jews died under Hitler.

Think, much???

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes he did. I like the one where he said about the lie. Keep saying it and people start believing it.

It's something you would answer if you heard it for the first time as an adult, "You got to be out of your mind if you tell us that." A perfect example of the Big Lie is college education. If people hadn't been brainwashed about it from even before the age that they had any effective reasoning skill, they would have answered, "Get a good job by going four years without a job? What are you trying to pull?"

[Alyosha]

Nothing. That doesn't excuse what the Germans overlooked, or is it even comparable.

Jim Crow was. How we treated homosexuals was. The final solution was years after they adopted Jim Crow style laws and sodomy prohibitions similar to ours. Look around the world. The only difference between Hitler and a ton of other racists and homophobes was that he had IBM and Destron helping him do it all more efficiently.

Do you know how many American companies invested in their solution?

[undine]

Jim Crow was. How we treated homosexuals was. The final solution was years after they adopted Jim Crow style laws and sodomy prohibitions similar to ours. Look around the world. The only difference between Hitler and a ton of other racists and homophobes was that he had IBM and Destron helping him do it all more efficiently.

Do you know how many American companies invested in their solution?
No. It was awful but not comparable. Slavery, maybe.

[Alyosha]

No. It was awful but not comparable. Slavery, maybe.

Slavery happened in the prior century. The Nuremberg laws were comparable to Jim Crow and our sodomy laws, as well as, being that they were both in the same century. As I said we had no excuse of total war or efficiency in these solutions, but the root lay within the same superiority of thought and a trust in "leaders" and man made laws.

Discrimination, isolation, and segregation were codified. Because they were laws, people had excuses.

[jillian]

Slavery happened in the prior century. The Nuremberg laws were comparable to Jim Crow and our sodomy laws, as well as, being that they were both in the same century. As I said we had no excuse of total war or efficiency in these solutions, but the root lay within the same superiority of thought and a trust in "leaders" and man made laws.

Discrimination, isolation, and segregation were codified. Because they were laws, people had excuses.

The final solution wasn't comparable to Jim Crow. And even under Jim Crow black people may have been considered less, but they were considered people, not vermin. I also don't recall people under Jim Crow having their property taken away. A final note, and you may not think it meaningful, but Jim Crow, as vile as it was, was a transition from slavery to equality. Blacks weren't really divested of rights they already had. Jews in Germany were full citizens. Owned property. Were scholars and intellectuals and musicians and scientists. And they had all of the rights and privileges of citizens. They never believed anything remotely like the savagery of the holocaust could happen to them.

[Kabuki Joe]

Um, well that was the question he was answering (about who knew, not whether it happened or not)

No doubt a lot of Germans did know, but I'm saying a lot didn't know either. I would argue the vast majority of US citizens didn't know about the Japanese internment camps. They had other things on their mind. Sure, neighbours would have known,but vast tracts of the US had no Japanese people in them and would have been none the wiser.


...you mean the "dirty japs that bombed Pearl Harbor"?...just like with the "dirty jews"...most people will turn a blind eye to certain people that are being rounded up for any reason, and really think why...I mean Jillian would help them load the trains with every card carrying right wing wacko and politely say "NEXT!!!!!!" when they needed another one and she wouldn't care what the reason was, just getting rid of them was enough motivation...the majority rarely cares what happens to A SPECIFIC minority...until everyone gets fat and lazy and thinks, "well, damn, who's going to do my laundry now"...

[Kabuki Joe]

When I asked my Grandma a while ago about what she thought of gathering up all the Japanese in WWII, she said "Well they bombed us". That was the response, she really didn't see anything wrong, she was about 12 when the war was over. I really wouldn't have expected a different answer from anyone in that time period. Sad that her mind stayed that way though. Some never learn.


...well, I see what you mean..."when I was growing up he raped me and my sister all the time, but that's history, we forgive him"...wouldn't life be much more simple if people did what they do and no one was bothered by it?...I think it would be swell...

[jillian]

...you mean the "dirty japs that bombed Pearl Harbor"?...just like with the "dirty jews"...most people will turn a blind eye to certain people that are being rounded up for any reason, and really think why...I mean Jillian would help them load the trains with every card carrying right wing wacko and politely say "NEXT!!!!!!" when they needed another one and she wouldn't care what the reason was, just getting rid of them was enough motivation...the majority rarely cares what happens to A SPECIFIC minority...until everyone gets fat and lazy and thinks, "well, damn, who's going to do my laundry now"...

Thats an interesting fantasy of yours. I suspet you're projecting your own hatred for people who disagree with you.

[jillian]

...well, I see what you mean..."when I was growing up he raped me and my sister all the time, but that's history, we forgive him"...wouldn't life be much more simple if people did what they do and no one was bothered by it?...I think it would be swell...

The people interned went up to second generation Americans.

[Kabuki Joe]

No, I think he was meaning if anybody actually knew about it.
I can certainly believe that a lot of Germans didn't know about the camps. Most were in other countries. But, then again, to say nobody knew is also disingenuous. A lot of people knew.

...knew what?...that they were loading them up and moving them out?...or loading them up to kill them all?...I doubt very seriously that the plan from day one was to kill them, the plan changed one day when some guy said, "we're out of room, what are we going to do now?"...

[Guerilla]

...well, I see what you mean..."when I was growing up he raped me and my sister all the time, but that's history, we forgive him"...wouldn't life be much more simple if people did what they do and no one was bothered by it?...I think it would be swell...

Dude, just stop. I don't even think you know what your talking about.

[jillian]

...knew what?...that they were loading them up and moving them out?...or loading them up to kill them all?...I doubt very seriously that the plan from day one was to kill them, the plan changed one day when some guy said, "we're out of room, what are we going to do now?"...

Except that hitler talked about the extermination of Jews in mein kampf.

[roadmaster]

Around 500,000 Jews died and no soap was ever made of them. Yes Hitler hated them because they tried to control the media. Both some of the Jewish and others have confirmed this. The Jews only talk about Jews that died. They cannot name a single truthful witness. It was all a hoax about the gas chambers and the study I showed and the evidence presented by David Cole backs them.

[zelmo1234]

I have to say that I am concerned and disappointed in how my fellow travelers on this blue rock we call earth have started to justify and deny EVIL!

Satin trick is to convince the world that EVIL does not exist. and he has used this in the past to create monsters.

Look around you? We have some wonderful Muslim people that turn a blind eye to the radical elements of their religion that would see the other religions of the world exterminated.

We have people like our President that are terrified to call the people that commit these terrible acts evil, or even terrorists

We have the knock out game targeting most ly Jewish people, For the first time in my life we have holocaust deniers coming out of the wood work!

And God forbid that we even mention the word God or his values in the public square. this speech must be silenced!

For those like me that sat an listed to the elders tell there stories, this sound more and more like pre WWII

The answer is LOVE, and yet we breed dissention and hate.

And love is not giving people everything that they want, but a caring for others and understand there positions.

We are on a path to a disaster making all other wars look like a holiday get together. but we are walking the path with the blinders of denial on!

it is time for Good men and women to WAKE THE FUCK UP!

[zelmo1234]

Around 500,000 Jews died and no soap was ever made of them. Yes Hitler hated them because they tried to control the media. Both some of the Jewish and others have confirmed this. The Jews only talk about Jews that died. They cannot name a single truthful witness. It was all a hoax about the gas chambers and the study I showed and the evidence presented by David Cole backs them.

It is not that hard to find out? they are still standing as a reminder of true evil today! and what happens when people turn a blind eye!

[roadmaster]

We have the knock out game targeting most ly Jewish people If you question anything or show proof you are automatically labeled. It had been going on and them targeting white people but one or two Jews get targeted and all of a sudden it's racist and it's all about them. I wouldn't doubt in the History books 20 years from now it will claim it was a game targeting Jews only. No one denies people were killed and The US did help but why make up things.

[Kabuki Joe]

Dude, just stop. I don't even think you know what your talking about.


...sorry, when you SERIOUSLY used dude, I lost interest...

[Dr. Who]

No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/

The evidence of the gas chambers has been photographed along with the mass burials and the actual chambers are available to look at if you take a tour of the concentration camps which have been preserved by the German government for posterity. The Germans don't even deny that the gas chambers existed. Friends of mine have taken the tour.

[Dr. Who]

The people interned went up to second generation Americans.
Without denigrating the seriousness of the holocaust, the internment of the Japanese for no other reason other than their ethnicity was a dreadful thing and yes their property was confiscated and they had to start again after the war with nothing. Approximately $400M of property was confiscated. http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/life_13.html They were not killed, but the fact that they were allowed to live does not change the fact that a travesty occurred. There are just degrees of vileness.

[jillian]

Without denigrating the seriousness of the holocaust, the internment of the Japanese for no other reason other than their ethnicity was a dreadful thing and yes their property was confiscated and they had to start again after the war with nothing. Approximately $400M of property was confiscated. http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/life_13.html They were not killed, but the fact that they were allowed to live does not change the fact that a travesty occurred. There are just degrees of vileness.

if you read my post of earlier, i pointed out that i had nothing but contempt for the act of interning american citizens. but i pointed out that it wasn't genocide. (again, takes nothing away from how ugly and disgusting it was and how ugly and disgusting that the supreme court case holding that it was ok has never been overturned.)

genocide has a particular place in hell, though.

[Mr Happy]

No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/


You know @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), you guys really disappoint me sometimes. You both have spent some time having a crack at @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) on this thread - and fair enough, this after all is a debating board. But you let shit like the above slide by? Fuck me....

[Mr Happy]

The evidence of the gas chambers has been photographed along with the mass burials and the actual chambers are available to look at if you take a tour of the concentration camps which have been preserved by the German government for posterity. The Germans don't even deny that the gas chambers existed. Friends of mine have taken the tour.

She is a total loon. This is why people have to be vigilant around liars and those who would rewrite history. I have been to the gas chambers in Dachau. And isn't it quaint that even the German people admit it happened but some anti-semite racist with the IQ of an amoeba says it didn't happen, therefore it can't be true.

[jillian]

No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/

that is false. and a "jewsvszionists" site isn't going to tell you anything honest.

the germans were meticulous record keepers.

no proof of six million…. laughable.

[jillian]

She is a total loon. This is why people have to be vigilant around liars and those who would rewrite history. I have been to the gas chambers in Dachau. And isn't it quaint that even the German people admit it happened but some anti-semite racist with the IQ of an amoeba says it didn't happen, therefore it can't be true.

but heaven forbid we call her a liar, right? oh no… it's supposed to be a "debate". one doesn't debate holocaust deniers. one laughs at them. one ridicules them. one calls them what they are…. because it is dangerous to pretend revisionists like that have anything to offer.

and, gee, why would they defend her?

hmmmm….

[jillian]

The evidence of the gas chambers has been photographed along with the mass burials and the actual chambers are available to look at if you take a tour of the concentration camps which have been preserved by the German government for posterity. The Germans don't even deny that the gas chambers existed. Friends of mine have taken the tour.

virulent, hate-filled anti-semites spend a lot of time trying to pretend it didn't happen.

[Chris]

You know @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), you guys really disappoint me sometimes. You both have spent some time having a crack at @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) on this thread - and fair enough, this after all is a debating board. But you let shit like the above slide by? Fuck me....

I didn't have a crack at jillian, happy, nor did alyosha, I had a crack at her weak overgeneralized argument. It really gets tiresome that some people take what's political personal all the time.

For another, why do you presume what you think "shit" I do? If you have an issue with something posted, you deal with it, politically, rationally, factually.

[Chris]

virulent, hate-filled anti-semites spend a lot of time trying to pretend it didn't happen.


Mr Happy , here's another crack at a stupid argument^^, this becoming rather consistent straw man "pretend" argument.

[Mr Happy]

I didn't have a crack at jillian, happy, nor did alyosha, I had a crack at her weak overgeneralized argument. It really gets tiresome that some people take what's political personal all the time.

For another, why do you presume what you think "shit" I do? If you have an issue with something posted, you deal with it, politically, rationally, factually.

That's fine. And you didnt have a crack at Roadmasters weak, over generalised arguement because...?

And you didn't deal with Roadmaster's post politically, rationally and factually because...?

It does get tiresome that you pick and choose posts to respond to on threads but refuse to engage others (IE ROADMASTER)

[Mr Happy]

@Mr Happy (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=720) , here's another crack at a stupid argument^^, this becoming rather consistent straw man "pretend" argument.

Which part is stupid? That the Holocaust didn't happen? Are you agreeing with RM?

[Chris]

Which part is stupid? That the Holocaust didn't happen? Are you agreeing with RM?



The "pretend" part as I pointed out. This seems to be becoming a standard meme. Instead of arguing with what people say, argue they are pretending, or lying, and then tell them what they really mean and argue with that. It's classic BS straw man rhetoric. It's stupid.

Stupid too, as an argument, is to be attacking and insulting people. If you disagree, present a rational argument rather than mere displays of emotion.

No one, not even the man in the video, has said the Holocaust didn't happen. Another stupid straw man.

[Mr Happy]

The "pretend" part as I pointed out. This seems to be becoming a standard meme. Instead of arguing with what people say, argue they are pretending, or lying, and then tell them what they really mean and argue with that. It's classic BS straw man rhetoric. It's stupid.

Stupid too, as an argument, is to be attacking and insulting people. If you disagree, present a rational argument rather than mere displays of emotion.

No one, not even the man in the video, has said the Holocaust didn't happen. Another stupid straw man.

So tell me - for shits and giggles - when RM posted a bogus link that the Holocaust didn't happen, and it was all down to 'typhoid' et al, you didn't respond because...?

[Chris]

So tell me - for shits and giggles - when RM posted a bogus link that the Holocaust didn't happen, and it was all down to 'typhoid' et al, you didn't respond because...?

Who the fuck are you to sit in judgement of people all the time? If you disagree with her and have a rational argument, present it, stop with this personal attack nonsense. And I will choose who and how I argue rationally with.

[Mr Happy]

No one, not even the man in the video, has said the Holocaust didn't happen. Another stupid straw man.

Actually, I can't believe I missed this. What is Roadmaster saying in the link I posted. Here's a clue when she says In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers."

Do you think she is saying the Holocaust occurred or not?

[undine]

So tell me - for shits and giggles - when RM posted a bogus link that the Holocaust didn't happen, and it was all down to 'typhoid' et al, you didn't respond because...?
He must agree with her.

[Chris]

No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/


Mr Happy are you seriously having such difficulty reading those words? They do not deny the Holocaust, they question the number: "No that number has been confirmed wrong." Do you really not see that, are you so blinded by emotion, or are you just looking for any excuse to attack someone personally?

[Chris]

He must agree with her.



Ravi chimes in with impeccable illogic.

[Mr Happy]

Who the fuck are you to sit in judgement of people all the time? If you disagree with her and have a rational argument, present it, stop with this personal attack nonsense. And I will choose who and how I argue rationally with.

I do disagree with her. My problem is , that every time Jillian shows her face on here you tend to disagree with her. I'm wondering why you are not taking exception to what RM is saying, too. You only reserve your disagreement for certain people? It's called trolling. I have not attacked you personally at all. I have asked you why you appear to pick and choose. You see, in my world, if somebody is full of shit, I tend to call them out, no matter who they are. You obviously decide your opinion on who is doing the talking...

[junie]

The "pretend" part as I pointed out. This seems to be becoming a standard meme. Instead of arguing with what people say, argue they are pretending, or lying, and then tell them what they really mean and argue with that. It's classic BS straw man rhetoric. It's stupid.

Stupid too, as an argument, is to be attacking and insulting people. If you disagree, present a rational argument rather than mere displays of emotion.

No one, not even the man in the video, has said the Holocaust didn't happen. Another stupid straw man.



lol you mean like you are now 'pretending' what's been posted hasn't been posted..?






So you are. 6 million Jews didn't die.


Yes he did. I like the one where he said about the lie. Keep saying it and people start believing it.


I am not a supporter of Hitler but History has been altered.
No that number has been confirmed wrong. In fact their were no evidence of gas chambers. Many died of Typhus, Typhoid, Dysentery, and Tuberculosis. http://jewsvszionists.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/jewish-holocaust-or-german-holocaust-auschwitz-gas-chambers-myth/


Around 500,000 Jews died and no soap was ever made of them. Yes Hitler hated them because they tried to control the media. Both some of the Jewish and others have confirmed this. The Jews only talk about Jews that died. They cannot name a single truthful witness. It was all a hoax about the gas chambers and the study I showed and the evidence presented by David Cole backs them.

[Mr Happy]

@Mr Happy (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=720) are you seriously having such difficulty reading those words? They do not deny the Holocaust, they question the number: "No that number has been confirmed wrong." Do you really not see that, are you so blinded by emotion, or are you just looking for any excuse to attack someone personally?

Oh, God, you're the Semantic Guy. Chris - ANYBODY denying the gas chambers is a Holocaust denier. I've been there. Seen them. You?
jillian - apologies. I seriously thought Chris was asking the query with regard to Germans not knowing. He is obviously a denier. Anybody who thinks that RM was NOT denying the Holocaust is a denier.

[junie]

I didn't have a crack at jillian, happy, nor did alyosha, I had a crack at her weak overgeneralized argument. It really gets tiresome that some people take what's political personal all the time.

For another, why do you presume what you think "shit" I do? If you have an issue with something posted, you deal with it, politically, rationally, factually.


lol hey jill get a hold of your emotions and don't take it all so personally, huh?

[Mr Happy]

lol hey jill get a hold of your emotions and don't take it all so personally, huh?

Yeah! Let's not take what RM said seriously. She wasn't denying the Holocaust you know! Only 500,000 died! And they had typhus and typhoid! No denying going on here! Just ask Chris...he's on to it!

[Peter1469]

@Mr Happy (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=720) , here's another crack at a stupid argument^^, this becoming rather consistent straw man "pretend" argument.

Where is your straw man?

[Peter1469]

Warning: Happy and Chris, the topic is not argument styles. Take that discussion to the Hole if it interests you. Stay on topic in this thread.


Who the fuck are you to sit in judgement of people all the time? If you disagree with her and have a rational argument, present it, stop with this personal attack nonsense. And I will choose who and how I argue rationally with.

[Mr Happy]

Please indicate where I have gone off topic
Cheers

[Alyosha]

You know @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), you guys really disappoint me sometimes. You both have spent some time having a crack at @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) on this thread - and fair enough, this after all is a debating board. But you let shit like the above slide by? Fuck me....
Mr Happy

where the fuck did I have a crack at jillian on this thread? How about YOU disappoint ME because I haven't said a goddam thing that could even possibly be construed as a "crack" on jillian.

Also, in case you didn't know, my family is ethnically Jewish and were practicing Jews during this time period. Moreover, unlike others my family was IN Europe during the WWII period so I would be very careful about trying to label me some sort of Holocaust denier. I don't sit on this forum all day like some people and I can't catch every crazy ass thing roadmaster says.

What I said, and it doesn't take more than 5 brain cells to put this shit together is that people were in denial and truly did not believe that their government was capable of torture and mass murder. In my country there is mass grave of 200,000 people right near where my great great grandmother had a farm and no one believed that they were political assassinations, they were people who "got sick".

IF people cannot discuss these types of issues without falling prey to emotions then they shouldn't talk about them.

I wouldn't take a crack at jillian because I like jillian, so I thank you to point that somewhere else in the future.

[Peter1469]

Please indicate where I have gone off topic
Cheers

24 hours in the hole. Please read the rules and be familiar with them.

[Alyosha]

Please indicate where I have gone off topic
Cheers

When you told me that I had a crack at jillian. There's an example.

[Alyosha]

24 hours in the hole. All please read the rules and be familiar with them.

Sorry, I didn't notice this before I posted.

[Alyosha]

Around 500,000 Jews died and no soap was ever made of them. Yes Hitler hated them because they tried to control the media. Both some of the Jewish and others have confirmed this. The Jews only talk about Jews that died. They cannot name a single truthful witness. It was all a hoax about the gas chambers and the study I showed and the evidence presented by David Cole backs them.

Elie Wiesel? There is a witness.

Have you never met a Holocaust survivor? Never seen the arm tattoos? Come on, seriously. You always bring these fringe historians into the discussion. Can you provide more evidence than David Cole?

If I starve you to death I've killed you just as much as if I shoot you or gas you. The Nazis were responsible for the death of millions, be they Jew, gay, or gypsy. The bones are there.

Roadmaster, these stories aren't about history. History is full colored and is a culmination of sources. You need to quit trusting sources that are anti-Jew and find ones that are ambivalent.

[Chris]

I do disagree with her. My problem is , that every time Jillian shows her face on here you tend to disagree with her. I'm wondering why you are not taking exception to what RM is saying, too. You only reserve your disagreement for certain people? It's called trolling. I have not attacked you personally at all. I have asked you why you appear to pick and choose. You see, in my world, if somebody is full of shit, I tend to call them out, no matter who they are. You obviously decide your opinion on who is doing the talking...



You disagree? With what? You stretch questioning the number to denying the Holocaust and then disagree with your own straw man and do so with personal attack. I choose to point out illogical arguments. If you want to convince anyone that the number is correct, present an argument, make your case. That I would listen to. To emotional straw men and ad hom I do not.

[Chris]

lol you mean like you are now 'pretending' what's been posted hasn't been posted..?



Another one with the "pretend" meme.


What you quote questions the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Can you not read what you quoted? It does not deny the Holocaust.

[Chris]

Oh, God, you're the Semantic Guy. Chris - ANYBODY denying the gas chambers is a Holocaust denier. I've been there. Seen them. You?
jillian - apologies. I seriously thought Chris was asking the query with regard to Germans not knowing. He is obviously a denier. Anybody who thinks that RM was NOT denying the Holocaust is a denier.

Then simply present your argument and not all this emotional rhetorical sophistry. Like ravi, your illogic is impeccable.

[Chris]

lol hey jill get a hold of your emotions and don't take it all so personally, huh?



Here's the irony, by being emotional rather than rational in a discussion like this jill only undermines her own position.

[Chris]

Yeah! Let's not take what RM said seriously. She wasn't denying the Holocaust you know! Only 500,000 died! And they had typhus and typhoid! No denying going on here! Just ask Chris...he's on to it!



Nice emotional display. Apparently that's the entirety of your argument.

[Chris]

virulent, hate-filled anti-semites spend a lot of time trying to pretend it didn't happen.


Mr Happy , here's another crack at a stupid argument^^, this becoming rather consistent straw man "pretend" argument.


Where is your straw man?

Jillian's "pretend" straw man: "virulent, hate-filled anti-semites spend a lot of time trying to pretend it didn't happen". Instead of arguing with what roadmaster questions, the number kill, jillian invents a pretend argument denying the Holocaust.

[Chris]

Elie Wiesel? There is a witness.

Have you never met a Holocaust survivor? Never seen the arm tattoos? Come on, seriously. You always bring these fringe historians into the discussion. Can you provide more evidence than David Cole?

If I starve you to death I've killed you just as much as if I shoot you or gas you. The Nazis were responsible for the death of millions, be they Jew, gay, or gypsy. The bones are there.

Roadmaster, these stories aren't about history. History is full colored and is a culmination of sources. You need to quit trusting sources that are anti-Jew and find ones that are ambivalent.



Thanks for a rational argument about the numbers killed. Personally, I don't think the number important, nor whether they were all Jews, or gays, or Gypsies, or blacks, as the man in video claims, or Protestant resistance, or even Free Thinker atheists who were beheaded, it was still the Holocaust, it was still a testament to the horrors man can inflict upon himself for the sake of irrational, emotional idealism.

[Alyosha]

Discussion of the Holocaust is very difficult because of cultural attachments to the topic. If you ask my mother or any other Russian off the street in Brooklyn, like a Soviet born person, they will tell you Stalin killed 20 million people in the purges. He probably killed 2.5 million. The best source, IMO, on the Holocaust said that about 1.5 million Jews died in the various camps and ghettos and the rest of the number is accounted by war and disease during diaspora. How people died and where is less important than the fact that their lives could have been beautiful, rich, and filled with love had evil people not decided to drag them out of their homes because some meaningless identifier made them "evil".

Why I don't get into the number game myself is because I don't care. 500,000 or 6 million is meaningless when it was the wrongful and systematic killing of a people based on an non-criminal, non-violent identifier. Do these people consider that killing people is wrong? Ten people or six million what does it matter? It is wrong. The Nazis, like the Soviets, were an abomination of the human spirit, but they are a not anomalies.

All governments, including this one, have perpetrated these types of crimes in some scale and citizens let them get away with it because cult of personalities instill in people all sorts of unguarded emotions and group think.

No one should ever trust anyone with that much power.

[jillian]

Oh, God, you're the Semantic Guy. Chris - ANYBODY denying the gas chambers is a Holocaust denier. I've been there. Seen them. You?
@jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) - apologies. I seriously thought Chris was asking the query with regard to Germans not knowing. He is obviously a denier. Anybody who thinks that RM was NOT denying the Holocaust is a denier.
Mr Happy apology accepted. I told you what he is.

[Mister D]

4 million, 5 million, 6 million...does it really matter at that point? Millions of Soviet POWs, millions of Slav civilians..and that's just the Nazis. Easily the most barbaric century in recorded history. So much for progress.

[jillian]

Here's the irony, by being emotional rather than rational in a discussion like this jill only undermines her own position.

no. wacko holocaust deniers do not rate "discussion", chris.

have a good day.

[Alyosha]

Eddie Izzard said it correctly that humans cannot process mass death, only individual deaths. Kill one person and you get the death penalty. Kill millions and you're given house arrest like Pol Pot.

Look at Darfur

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/darfur-genocide

This is post-Holocaust when the world says "Never again". Half a million killed over 2 and a half million displaced and what is our position? Send some dollars, wear Tshirts, and hand out "Things you can do" pamphlets.

[Chris]

no. wacko holocaust deniers do not rate "discussion", chris.

have a good day.


No one has denied the Holocaust, jillian. Stop fighting whimpy straw men. It's too damned easy. The question in the video was not that Jews weren't killed but why no one is concerned with the blacks that were. Roadmaster's argument is about how many, if you have counterevidence, bring it, though, like alyosha, I don't think the exact numbers important to the horror of it.

[Chris]

Eddie Izzard said it correctly that humans cannot process mass death, only individual deaths. Kill one person and you get the death penalty. Kill millions and you're given house arrest like Pol Pot.

Look at Darfur

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/darfur-genocide

This is post-Holocaust when the world says "Never again". Half a million killed over 2 and a half million displaced and what is our position? Send some dollars, wear Tshirts, and hand out "Things you can do" pamphlets.


Not even sure people can deal with individual deaths. Rituals over death have, in some respect, evolved into religions.


The Holocaust ill likely happen again. Man has not evolved morally to avoid it. He still creates and worships the states that cause it.

[Alyosha]

No one has denied the Holocaust, jillian. Stop fighting whimpy straw men. It's too damned easy. The question in the video was not that Jews weren't killed but why no one is concerned with the blacks that were. Roadmaster's argument is about how many, if you have counterevidence, bring it, though, like alyosha, I don't think the exact numbers important to the horror of it.

I would like roadmaster to affirm that she doesn't deny it before I'll go on record in support of what you feel she's trying to say. I cannot understand what she's talking about.

It sounds as though she's saying that Jews died from disease not the camps. I'd be happier if I heard her state that she believes the Nazi's were responsible for their deaths.
roadmaster?

What do you believe, exactly?

[Chris]

4 million, 5 million, 6 million...does it really matter at that point? Millions of Soviet POWs, millions of Slav civilians..and that's just the Nazis. Easily the most barbaric century in recorded history. So much for progress.

"and that's just the Nazis"

Amen to that.

[The Sage of Main Street]

...I'm not an Arian so I wouldn't fit into his plan...

The Germans weren't Aryans either. When the Indo-Europeans (PC name for "Aryans") first came to Europe around 2,000 BC, a slavish, stupid, and cowardly race already existed there. Though outnumbering the Aryans, these indigenous tribes were easily defeated. Interbreeding took place in various proportions in different territories. Because the Germans took 2,000 years to catch up to the Greeks and Romans, their genetic makeup must be mostly non-Aryan.

Linguistics was started by proto-Nazi etymologists. They propagated the error that the German language changed from pure Indo-European merely because of the passage of time. Logic would tell anyone not affected by academic brainwashing that German is Aryan As a Second Language.

[Chris]

I would like roadmaster to affirm that she doesn't deny it before I'll go on record in support of what you feel she's trying to say. I cannot understand what she's talking about.

It sounds as though she's saying that Jews died from disease not the camps. I'd be happier if I heard her state that she believes the Nazi's were responsible for their deaths.
roadmaster?

What do you believe, exactly?


I've never studied it in any depth, and would like to see people post up what they find as facts and counterfacts, but I don't think the exact number killed makes it any more or less a Holocaust--and as D says, that was just the Nazis.

And I believe it better to ask rather than assume and argue from assumptions.

[The Sage of Main Street]

You simply cannot discuss Nazi Germany without people glossing over what you're saying and jumping to conclusions.

You'll note that I said that humans will ignore what they want to ignore when they trust

Look at who voted for the Iraq War in our Congress. How many Iraqis died over that war? Bush gave them a reason and like the good statists we are, we'll continue to vote for them because, hey, lesser of two evils.

When we cease to put trust in a government or religion we grow smarter, faster, stronger. We need faith in ourselves and the ability to question without fear.

The usual Libretardian bait-and-switch sales pitch to trick us into voluntarily reinforcing our slavery to the private-sector Greedhead Gorillas.

[The Xl]

The usual Libretardian bait-and-switch sales pitch to trick us into voluntarily reinforcing our slavery to the private-sector Greedhead Gorillas.

Stop being useless and create your own wealth instead of looking for handouts.

[The Sage of Main Street]

When I asked my Grandma a while ago about what she thought of gathering up all the Japanese in WWII, she said "Well they bombed us". That was the response, she really didn't see anything wrong, she was about 12 when the war was over. I really wouldn't have expected a different answer from anyone in that time period. Sad that her mind stayed that way though. Some never learn.

More Hate Whitey mantras. We can't take chances in war, so that detention should be completely forgiven under that context. Besides, it was also protective custody.

[Chris]

I've never studied it in any depth, and would like to see people post up what they find as facts and counterfacts, but I don't think the exact number killed makes it any more or less a Holocaust--and as D says, that was just the Nazis.

And I believe it better to ask rather than assume and argue from assumptions.

Alyosha, I also believe the discussion is healthy and good. We can all learn from exchange of opinions and ideas, raise awareness if nothing else.

I also believe moderation should do more to stop repeated personal attacks, but apparently they do not, so, in lieu of that, we should do it ourselves.


I feel I may not have answered your question?

[Alyosha]

The usual Libretardian bait-and-switch sales pitch to trick us into voluntarily reinforcing our slavery to the private-sector Greedhead Gorillas.
The Sage of Main Street

your arguments are bizarrely written, thus making them easily ignorable. Do your cause a favor and make sense.

[jillian]

More Hate Whitey mantras. We can't take chances in war, so that detention should be completely forgiven under that context. Besides, it was also protective custody.

that may well be one of the biggest loads of nonsense i've ever seen.

so it's ok if you're imprisoned indefinitely without charges and have your property taken away because of political agitating by others totally unrelated to you?

cool.

p.s. we weren't at war with our own citizens. you seem confused

[The Sage of Main Street]

No, I think he was meaning if anybody actually knew about it.
I can certainly believe that a lot of Germans didn't know about the camps. Most were in other countries. But, then again, to say nobody knew is also disingenuous. A lot of people knew.

And a lot of Germans who didn't know would have heartily approved if they had known.

[The Xl]

@The Sage of Main Street (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=828)

your arguments are bizarrely written, thus making them easily ignorable. Do your cause a favor and make sense.

If he hasn't made one coherent post 1200+ posts in, the prospects of him ever making one are slim to none.

[jillian]

And a lot of Germans who didn't know would have heartily approved if they had known.

mein Kampf, the neuremberg laws and the final solution along with the concept of aryans somehow being a "master race" were pretty clearly stated.

[Alyosha]

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), I also believe the discussion is healthy and good. We can all learn from exchange of opinions and ideas, raise awareness if nothing else.

I also believe moderation should do more to stop repeated personal attacks, but apparently they do not, so, in lieu of that, we should do it ourselves.


I feel I may not have answered your question?


You weren't asked a question, @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128).

I asked @roadmaster (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=87) a question so that I can clarify her position. Sometimes we don't articulate ourselves correctly and I will in good faith assume that she has not done so. Therefore I posed to her a question so that I know where she stands.

When I read her posts it appears as though she's saying that the Nazi's did not kill the Jews, but detained them where they died in numbers of 500,000 and of natural causes.

@roadmaster (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=87) is this an accurate assessment or no?

[Chris]

You weren't asked a question, Chris.

I asked roadmaster a question so that I can clarify her position. Sometimes we don't articulate ourselves correctly and I will in good faith assume that she has not and therefore posed to her a question so that I know where she stands. I choose not to assume she's a Holocaust denier, and therefore asked her what she actually believes.

When I read her posts it appears as though she's saying that the Nazi's did not kill the Jews, but detained them where they died in numbers of 500,000 and of natural causes.
roadmaster is this an accurate assessment or no?


Oh, OK, I thought you were asking what I believed. Sorry. She can answer.

[Heyduke]

4 million, 5 million, 6 million...does it really matter at that point? Millions of Soviet POWs, millions of Slav civilians..and that's just the Nazis. Easily the most barbaric century in recorded history. So much for progress.

Between 1815 and 1914, no major world war disrupted the general progress of economic development. (Setting aside the American Civil War) This was an era of relative peace and tremendous social change. Blind faith in technical science and the inevitability of progress ruled the consciousness of the time.

After the catastrophe of two world wars, and the subsequent revelation of the methods of totalitarian states, The West no longer believed in the fable of triumphant progress. Nazi Germany had been the most technologically advanced nation of its time, with the most highly educated intellectuals.

In the aftermath, Western Man had made a painful rediscovery of himself and that element in humanity which he had chosen to forget--- the demonic. Man was at one and the same time too great, too good, and yet to wicked for the positivist world view to remain relevant. He no longer fit the role for which he was cast by the Hegelians.

It was men like Nietzsche who in the 19th century dared to utter the truths that his bourgeois contemporaries could not face. It was Kierkegaard the Dane who defied the naive dreaming of his time. It was Dostoyevsky who foresaw and embodied in his novels the consequences of Western positivism.

And now, Europe has enjoyed 70 years of peace. Wars are fought at arms length, and now via proxy soldiers and robots. Modern eugenics has reemerged (bio-engineering). Never before have we been so absorbed into abstraction (living vicariously through electronic media). We have lost our ‘illative’ sense, as Cardinal Newman put it, which guides us toward unknown knowns. We are removed from the elemental and existential questions of the human condition. We have taken to dreaming once again, and forgetting, embracing as child-savior-- the tech mogul in designer jeans and black T-shirt with his gigantic head projected on the screen behind him. Understandably, we have shunned that most ancestral of human characterizations, the inculcation of the Fall of Man.

http://www.wallchan.com/images/mediums/9404.jpg

[Kalkin]

A wise man once said, "If you want to know your oppressor, look to those you are not allowed to question or criticize".
Food for thought.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Outnumbered 99 to 1, our predatory beast ruling class has to establish the lie that cowardice is not a crime. So no one points out that the Jews were cowards for letting the Holocaust happen. Their whole race should have taken violent action even before Hitler came to power. The Germans in the 1920s would have blamed him for causing anarchy. Instead, their yellow apologists claim that fighting back would have just confirmed the Germans' suspicions about the Jews.

For hundreds of years, the Jews had survived without a net loss of population through many pogroms. "Go along to get along" seemed to pay off in the long run. There was no excuse for that cowardice either, and finally the chickens came home to get roasted.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Discussion of the Holocaust is very difficult because of cultural attachments to the topic. If you ask my mother or any other Russian off the street in Brooklyn, like a Soviet born person, they will tell you Stalin killed 20 million people in the purges. He probably killed 2.5 million. The best source, IMO, on the Holocaust said that about 1.5 million Jews died in the various camps and ghettos and the rest of the number is accounted by war and disease during diaspora. How people died and where is less important than the fact that their lives could have been beautiful, rich, and filled with love had evil people not decided to drag them out of their homes because some meaningless identifier made them "evil".

Why I don't get into the number game myself is because I don't care. 500,000 or 6 million is meaningless when it was the wrongful and systematic killing of a people based on an non-criminal, non-violent identifier. Do these people consider that killing people is wrong? Ten people or six million what does it matter? It is wrong. The Nazis, like the Soviets, were an abomination of the human spirit, but they are a not anomalies.

All governments, including this one, have perpetrated these types of crimes in some scale and citizens let them get away with it because cult of personalities instill in people all sorts of unguarded emotions and group think.

No one should ever trust anyone with that much power.

You are in denial of the fact that the Jews were cowards and deserve no sympathy. The few Zionists got sick of being betrayed by the vast majority of their own people and decided to stand up for themselves in a place where they didn't need massive numbers to make bravery and intelligence effective. They stood up against the Nazislami-appeasing British army and the swarms of Arab sand fleas. Even now their manhood is not being appreciated by some influential Jews, especially at the New York Times.

[Mister D]

Between 1815 and 1914, no major world war disrupted the general progress of economic development. (Setting aside the American Civil War) This was an era of relative peace and tremendous social change. Blind faith in technical science and the inevitability of progress ruled the consciousness of the time.

After the catastrophe of two world wars, and the subsequent revelation of the methods of totalitarian states, The West no longer believed in the fable of triumphant progress. Nazi Germany had been the most technologically advanced nation of its time, with the most highly educated intellectuals.

In the aftermath, Western Man had made a painful rediscovery of himself and that element in humanity which he had chosen to forget--- the demonic. Man was at one and the same time too great, too good, and yet to wicked for the positivist world view to remain relevant. He no longer fit the role for which he was cast by the Hegelians.

It was men like Nietzsche who in the 19th century dared to utter the truths that his bourgeois contemporaries could not face. It was Kierkegaard the Dane who defied the naive dreaming of his time. It was Dostoyevsky who foresaw and embodied in his novels the consequences of Western positivism.

And now, Europe has enjoyed 70 years of peace. Wars are fought at arms length, and now via proxy soldiers and robots. Modern eugenics has reemerged (bio-engineering). Never before have we been so absorbed into abstraction (living vicariously through electronic media). We have lost our ‘illative’ sense, as Cardinal Newman put it, which guides us toward unknown knowns. We are removed from the elemental and existential questions of the human condition. We have taken to dreaming once again, and forgetting, embracing as child-savior-- the tech mogul in designer jeans and black T-shirt with his gigantic head projected on the screen behind him. Understandably, we have shunned that most ancestral of human characterizations, the inculcation of the Fall of Man.

http://www.wallchan.com/images/mediums/9404.jpg

Well said. I'm in full agreement.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Look at Darfur

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/darfur-genocide

Half a million killed over 2 and a half million displaced and what is our position? wear Tshirts, .

Sympathy for cowards is Sympathy for the Devil. Wear a yellow T-shirt.

[jillian]

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), I also believe the discussion is healthy and good. We can all learn from exchange of opinions and ideas, raise awareness if nothing else.

the occurrence of the holocaust is not an OPINION. it is FACT.

posts like the above is why i question your grasp of reality. you seem to be unable to discern between fact and opinion.


I also believe moderation should do more to stop repeated personal attacks, but apparently they do not, so, in lieu of that, we should do it ourselves.

lmao

i would suggest you first examine your own behavior.

[Mister D]

Interesting tidbit: Jews were typically a small minority in the camps because the vast majority were murdered upon arrival. Auschwitz-Birkenau, for example, was also a slave labor camp that housed Poles, Soviet POWs, and others. Watching movies you get the impression that most of the inmates were Jewish. Most weren't.

[Chris]

the occurrence of the holocaust is not an OPINION. it is FACT.

posts like the above is why i question your grasp of reality. you seem to be unable to discern between fact and opinion.



lmao

i would suggest you first examine your own behavior.



Poor reading comprehension, jillian. We all have opinions and ideas about such facts as the Holocaust. I think most would understand what I meant. You, instead, twist it illogically as a means of personal attack. Pity, that. I doubt any are impressed by such sophistry.

Now why you take criticism of your irrational messages as personal attack is beyond me. Is it to seek pity?

[The Sage of Main Street]

@The Sage of Main Street (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=828)

your arguments are bizarrely written, thus making them easily ignorable. Do your cause a favor and make sense.

Nice try in pretending to believe I don't know what the Libretardians are up to. And your bossy reply reveals whose liberty is the only one your preppie cult cares about.

[Mister D]

I've never studied it in any depth, and would like to see people post up what they find as facts and counterfacts, but I don't think the exact number killed makes it any more or less a Holocaust--and as D says, that was just the Nazis.

And I believe it better to ask rather than assume and argue from assumptions.

One question that often leads to acrimony is what counts and what doesn't. What are we referring to when we speak of the Holocaust? Just the crimes against the Jews? The Jews, homosexuals, Freemasons etc? The entirety of Nazi crimes against the civilian populations of Europe? What exactly?

[jillian]

Sympathy for cowards is Sympathy for the Devil. Wear a yellow T-shirt.

it wasn't "cowardice". no one believed that civilized germany could do something so barbaric. they were citizens. and by the time their rights of citizenship were divested, they couldn't leave….

the warsaw ghetto uprising was not the act of cowards.

defending israel from an almost constant onslaught has not been cowardice. in fact, i'd say more than a couple of people who posted on this thread have major objections to jews defending themselves at all.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Between 1815 and 1914, no major world war disrupted the general progress of economic development. (Setting aside the American Civil War) This was an era of relative peace and tremendous social change. Blind faith in technical science and the inevitability of progress ruled the consciousness of the time.

After the catastrophe of two world wars, and the subsequent revelation of the methods of totalitarian states, The West no longer believed in the fable of triumphant progress. Nazi Germany had been the most technologically advanced nation of its time, with the most highly educated intellectuals.

In the aftermath, Western Man had made a painful rediscovery of himself and that element in humanity which he had chosen to forget--- the demonic. Man was at one and the same time too great, too good, and yet to wicked for the positivist world view to remain relevant. He no longer fit the role for which he was cast by the Hegelians.

It was men like Nietzsche who in the 19th century dared to utter the truths that his bourgeois contemporaries could not face. It was Kierkegaard the Dane who defied the naive dreaming of his time. It was Dostoyevsky who foresaw and embodied in his novels the consequences of Western positivism.

And now, Europe has enjoyed 70 years of peace. Wars are fought at arms length, and now via proxy soldiers and robots. Modern eugenics has reemerged (bio-engineering). Never before have we been so absorbed into abstraction (living vicariously through electronic media). We have lost our ‘illative’ sense, as Cardinal Newman put it, which guides us toward unknown knowns. We are removed from the elemental and existential questions of the human condition. We have taken to dreaming once again, and forgetting, embracing as child-savior-- the tech mogul in designer jeans and black T-shirt with his gigantic head projected on the screen behind him. Understandably, we have shunned that most ancestral of human characterizations, the inculcation of the Fall of Man.

http://www.wallchan.com/images/mediums/9404.jpg

Decadent postmodernism trying to excuse its brain-dead Death Wish unmanliness by saying that bravery and intelligence are character traits of Nazis.

[Alyosha]

Nice try in pretending to believe I don't know what the Libretardians are up to. And your bossy reply reveals whose liberty is the only one your preppie cult cares about.

No my bossy reply implies that I believe myself superior in intellect to you. I never pled guilty to being a sweet person, just someone who understands her own flaws well enough to realize why there can be no monopoly on force.

Give me power and in the words of Gandalf, I would think to do good with it, but in my hands it would wreak a powerful evil.

I'm intelligent, know the law, and have an interest in living well. I believe that I know best. There are over 500 such people with lawmaking powers in Washington. Be afraid.

[Alyosha]

it wasn't "cowardice". no one believed that civilized germany could do something so barbaric. they were citizens. and by the time their rights of citizenship were divested, they couldn't leave….

the warsaw ghetto uprising was not the act of cowards.

defending israel from an almost constant onslaught has not been cowardice. in fact, i'd say more than a couple of people who posted on this thread have major objections to jews defending themselves at all.

Exactly my point. No one believed it could happen. That's the lesson we must take. It can and does happen more frequently than we like to admit.

[Mister D]

it wasn't "cowardice". no one believed that civilized germany could do something so barbaric. they were citizens. and by the time their rights of citizenship were divested, they couldn't leave….

the warsaw ghetto uprising was not the act of cowards.

defending israel from an almost constant onslaught has not been cowardice. in fact, i'd say more than a couple of people who posted on this thread have major objections to jews defending themselves at all.

That ought to teach you something about positive law.

[The Sage of Main Street]

When I read her posts it appears as though she's saying that the Nazi's did not kill the Jews,



You want to tell other people how to write but you don't even know that Nazi's is an illiterate plural. Even if it's only a typo, that would still show your ilk's typically self-satisfied and irresponsible carelessness.

[Dr. Who]

One question that often leads to acrimony is what counts and what doesn't. What are we referring to when we speak of the Holocaust? Just the crimes against the Jews? The Jews, homosexuals, Freemasons etc? The entirety of Nazi crimes against the civilian populations of Europe? What exactly?
What sets the Nazis apart in any discussion of crimes against humanity was their determined effort to commit genocide. It was not a fight between two rival nations where only one is left standing. The Wannsee Conference held January 20, 1942 had only one purpose and that was to discuss the implementation of the final solution to the Jewish question, that being the extermination of the estimated 11,000,000 Jews in Europe. It was based on this conference that the Nazis began to construct the first death camp at Auschwitz, that being Birkenau which opened in March of 1942. Records at that camp account for the deaths of 1.1M to 1.2M Jews at that one camp alone. (There were several camps in Auschwitz, some were labor camps, some were death camps). http://en.auschwitz.org/h/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=9 They also had plans to eventually exterminate or expropriate all Poles and replace them with Germans, but that was a plan contingent on winning the war. The Nazis were monstrous and depraved people. While the exact number of Jews that died in the various camps of gassing, starvation, disease and exposure is not precisely known, it was definitely in the multiples of millions. Yes it was also a holocaust for others targeted by the Nazis, however there was less of a concerted effort made to bring about their demise.

[Mister D]

What sets the Nazis apart in any discussion of crimes against humanity was their determined effort to commit genocide. It was not a fight between two rival nations where only one is left standing. The Wannsee Conference held January 20, 1942 had only one purpose and that was to discuss the implementation of the final solution to the Jewish question, that being the extermination of the estimated 11,000,000 Jews in Europe. It was based on this conference that the Nazis began to construct the first death camp at Auschwitz, that being Birkenau which opened in March of 1942. Records at that camp account for the deaths of 1.1M to 1.2M Jews at that one camp alone. (There were several camps in Auschwitz, some were labor camps, some were death camps). http://en.auschwitz.org/h/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=9 They also had plans to eventually exterminate or expropriate all Poles and replace them with Germans, but that was a plan contingent on winning the war. The Nazis were monstrous and depraved people. While the exact number of Jews that died in the various camps of gassing, starvation, disease and exposure is not precisely known, it was definitely in the multiples of millions. Yes it was also a holocaust for others targeted by the Nazis, however there was less of a concerted effort made to bring about their demise.

Nothing sets the Nazis apart from other genocidal regimes. It's the Holocaust industry that creates the impression of uniqueness. Secondly, that the Nazis murdered millions of Slavs as a matter of racial policy is not in serious dispute.

Yes, the Nazis were "monstrous and depraved people" but hardly unique.

[jillian]

Exactly my point. No one believed it could happen. That's the lesson we must take. It can and does happen more frequently than we like to admit.

i agree. but the first place to fight that is by not allowing people to repeat lies about any group of people and you certainly don't revise history to pretend it didn't happen.

[Chris]

Nothing sets the Nazis apart from other genocidal regimes. It's the Holocaust industry that creates the impression of uniqueness. Secondly, that the Nazis murdered millions of Slavs as a matter of racial policy is not in serious dispute.

Yes, the Nazis were "monstrous and depraved people" but hardly unique.


Part of the reason may be that we fought the Nazis and the Russians were our allies. War propaganda lasts a long time. (It's somewhat similar to the shocked reactions to associating FDR to Hitler as opposed to practically unnoticed of the same with Stalin in the Statism as Religion discussion.)

[Chris]

i agree. but the first place to fight that is by not allowing people to repeat lies about any group of people and you certainly don't revise history to pretend it didn't happen.


The lie and pretend meme again. :-D

[Kabuki Joe]

Nice try in pretending to believe I don't know what the Libretardians are up to. And your bossy reply reveals whose liberty is the only one your preppie cult cares about.


...preppie cult?!?!?...that's baddass!!!!!...I like it!!!!!...

[Mister D]

Part of the reason may be that we fought the Nazis and the Russians were our allies. War propaganda lasts a long time. (It's somewhat similar to the shocked reactions to associating FDR to Hitler as opposed to practically unnoticed of the same with Stalin in the Statism as Religion discussion.)

We shouldn't mention FDR's relationship with Stalin either. That will be another shit storm.

Yeah, I think it may boil down to this:

"(Soviet totalitarian) in order to create a angel, creates a beast: for that of the Nazi undertaking: man should not try to resemble a beast of prey, because when he does so, he is only too successful."

Raymond Aron

For a lot of people it's a matter of intent. For me, I don't see how the victims are any less dead.

[jillian]

The lie and pretend meme again. :-D

if you don't understand the holocaust was reality, i can't help you.

it's not a meme when it's true.

only hate filled crazy people think the holocaust didn't happen, chris.

[Kabuki Joe]

Nothing sets the Nazis apart from other genocidal regimes. It's the Holocaust industry that creates the impression of uniqueness. Secondly, that the Nazis murdered millions of Slavs as a matter of racial policy is not in serious dispute.

Yes, the Nazis were "monstrous and depraved people" but hardly unique.


...I agree...it's like the focus on the US and slavery, slavery was hardly unique to the US...it seems that some people make great targets to condemn while others aren't so great...

[Chris]

if you don't understand the holocaust was reality, i can't help you.

it's not a meme when it's true.

only hate filled crazy people think the holocaust didn't happen, chris.



No one here has claimed the Holocaust didn't happen, jillian, what are you talking about? I'm just saying you ought to stop arguing with pretend straw men is all.

[jillian]

...I agree...it's like the focus on the US and slavery, slavery was hardly unique to the US...it seems that some people make great targets to condemn while others are so great...

the nazis were unique in the efficiency with which they made european jewry evaporate.

i'm pretty sure we won't find another group that killed 11 million people.

they were also unique in their record keeping. which is why the deniers are such a pathetic joke.

[Chris]

the nazis were unique in the efficiency with which they made european jewry evaporate.

i'm pretty sure we won't find another group that killed 11 million people.

they were also unique in their record keeping. which is why the deniers are such a pathetic joke.


No one here is denying the Holocaust, jillian, why are you still beating up that pathetic straw man?

[Mister D]

the nazis were unique in the efficiency with which they made european jewry evaporate.

i'm pretty sure we won't find another group that killed 11 million people.

they were also unique in their record keeping. which is why the deniers are such a pathetic joke.

Sure we would. The Soviets.

[jillian]

No one here has claimed the Holocaust didn't happen, jillian, what are you talking about? I'm just saying you ought to stop arguing with pretend straw men is all.

you keep demanding proof, chris. now you want to change the goal posts? too bad.

no straw men.

do you know what the term means?

[Chris]

you keep demanding proof, chris. now you want to change the goal posts? too bad.

no straw men.

do you know what the term means?


I demand proof? Where's this, jillian? Proof of what?

What I did was point out your lying "pretend" straw man fallacy that anyone here is denying the Holocaust.

Your fauxrage is touching, but who are you raging against? Are you enraged that the Nazis killed more than Jews, or that the Russians killed more than the Nazis, or what? That's what I see people talking about. Man's inhumanity to man, now there's something to be enraged about.

[Dr. Who]

Sure we would. The Soviets.

Killing off half of an ethnic population scattered throughout various countries as part of a "final solution" is somewhat different in motivation from killing off what you believe are dissidents in your own country. One is the attempted genocide of a people and one is not. Both are hideous and depraved, but the former is more chilling when thinking in terms of "but for" the intervention of the allied forces, the Nazis might have virtually eliminated the Jewish population of Europe. Considering the vicissitudes of war and how much power that victors garner, who's to say that their final solution would not have been later implemented world wide in countries where anti-Semitism was widespread. If the Germans had won the war, what would have happened in the middle east? One might also ask what might have happened in America, where anti-Semitism was very widespread and at the onset of the war, so many people were sympathizers to the German war effort. This is why the Holocaust is so important. It is not only what actually happened, it is also the knowledge of what would or could have happened had the Nazis not been stopped.

[jillian]

Killing off half of an ethnic population scattered throughout various countries as part of a "final solution" is somewhat different in motivation from killing off what you believe are dissidents in your own country. One is the attempted genocide of a people and one is not. Both are hideous and depraved, but the former is more chilling when thinking in terms of "but for" the intervention of the allied forces, the Nazis might have virtually eliminated the Jewish population of Europe. Considering the vicissitudes of war and how much power that victors garner, who's to say that their final solution would not have been later implemented world wide in countries where anti-Semitism was widespread. If the Germans had won the war, what would have happened in the middle east? One might also ask what might have happened in America, where anti-Semitism was very widespread and at the onset of the war, so many people were sympathizers to the German war effort. This is why the Holocaust is so important. It is not only what actually happened, it is also the knowledge of what would or could have happened had the Nazis not been stopped.

they did virtually eliminate the jewish population of europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

[Mister D]

Killing off half of an ethnic population scattered throughout various countries as part of a "final solution" is somewhat different in motivation from killing off what you believe are dissidents in your own country. One is the attempted genocide of a people and one is not. Both are hideous and depraved, but the former is more chilling when thinking in terms of "but for" the intervention of the allied forces, the Nazis might have virtually eliminated the Jewish population of Europe. Considering the vicissitudes of war and how much power that victors garner, who's to say that their final solution would not have been later implemented world wide in countries where anti-Semitism was widespread. If the Germans had won the war, what would have happened in the middle east? One might also ask what might have happened in America, where anti-Semitism was very widespread and at the onset of the war, so many people were sympathizers to the German war effort. This is why the Holocaust is so important. It is not only what actually happened, it is also the knowledge of what would or could have happened had the Nazis not been stopped.

See my comment above. For many of us, it comes down to intent. I also think there is an unspoken admiration for the goals of communism. We wonder how something so noble could go so horribly wrong. Let me also suggest that "class enemy" and racial enemy played exactly the same role. The goal was the extermination of both. Indeed, one could argue that the latter is more chilling. Where does the latter end?

The Nazis were stopped and goverments continued to murder millions of their own citizens.

[Mister D]

If the Germans had won the war, what would have happened in the middle east?

Who, what do you mean?

[Dr. Who]

Who, what do you mean?

The Nazis would have started by eliminating all Jews in the territories that they controlled and then would have moved on to killing off all Semitic peoples of any kind, because they would, according to the Nazi belief, have been racial inferiors. They would have then moved on to Africa, with an ultimate final solution to exterminate anyone who was non-Aryan and by that I mean those descended from Nordic Europeans (not including Slavs) on the planet. Don't forget that by the end of the war they were on the precipice of atomic warfare. Had they won, why wouldn't they eliminate all of the non-Aryans that they could?

[jillian]

The Nazis would have started by eliminating all Jews in the territories that they controlled and then would have moved on to killing off all Semitic peoples of any kind, because they would, according to the Nazi belief, have been racial inferiors. They would have then moved on to Africa, with an ultimate final solution to exterminate anyone who was non-Aryan and by that I mean those descended from Nordic Europeans (not including Slavs) on the planet. Don't forget that by the end of the war they were on the precipice of atomic warfare. Had they won, why wouldn't they eliminate all of the non-Aryans that they could?

you forgot catholics and gays and gypsies. he killed them too… 5 million of them.

[Dr. Who]

you forgot catholics and gays and gypsies. he killed them too… 5 million of them.The gypsies were definitely non-Aryans by Nazi definition. Of course they also despised anything that they considered non-standard human behavior, so yes all gays or any other violation of "normal" behavior. All people with mental illness, physical deformity etc. Perhaps Catholics, or perhaps they would have bullied them into adopting the Nazi blessed form of religion.

[Mister D]

The Nazis would have started by eliminating all Jews in the territories that they controlled and then would have moved on to killing off all Semitic peoples of any kind, because they would, according to the Nazi belief, have been racial inferiors. They would have then moved on to Africa, with an ultimate final solution to exterminate anyone who was non-Aryan and by that I mean those descended from Nordic Europeans (not including Slavs) on the planet. Don't forget that by the end of the war they were on the precipice of atomic warfare. Had they won, why wouldn't they eliminate all of the non-Aryans that they could?

The Nazis were very popular in the Mid East for obvious reasons and had no intention, unlike the Allies, of establishing control over the region. Germany's interests were in the east.

[Mister D]

you forgot catholics and gays and gypsies. he killed them too… 5 million of them.

What? 5 million Catholics and gays and gypsies?

[jillian]

What? 5 million Catholics and gays and gypsies?

yes. he killed 6 million jews and 5 million others.

[Mister D]

yes. he killed 6 million jews and 5 million others.

They killed more Slavs than Jews. Russia lost around 20 million people (perhaps 12 or 13 were military) in what was a war of annihilation from the very beginning. Poland lost 25% of her population.

[Dr. Who]

The Nazis were very popular in the Mid East for obvious reasons and had no intention, unlike the Allies, of establishing control over the region. Germany's interests were in the east.
The thing with psychotic megalomaniacs is that their thirst for power and control is limitless. Why stop with controlling Europe? Why not control the largest sources of oil? Why not try to create some kind of world government?

[jillian]

They killed more Slavs than Jews. Russia lost around 20 million people (perhaps 12 or 13 were military) in what was a war of annihilation from the very beginning. Poland lost 25% of her population.

the 11 million are noncombatants….

[Mister D]

The thing with psychotic megalomaniacs is that their thirst for power and control is limitless. Why stop with controlling Europe? Why not control the largest sources of oil? Why not try to create some kind of world government?

You can speculate, I suppose.

[Mister D]

the 11 million are noncombatants….

Yes, I know. So was up to half of Russia's war dead. Most of Poland's.

[roadmaster]

Oh my goodness they have already admitted it was no where near 6 million. They changed it to 4 million and now 1.2 million. Studies show it was a lot lower than that.

[Guerilla]

The thing with psychotic megalomaniacs is that their thirst for power and control is limitless. Why stop with controlling Europe? Why not control the largest sources of oil? Why not try to create some kind of world government?

I heard about how they found Nazi plans for the invasion of South America. I don't think they had a limit.

[Mister D]

Like it or not, the Nazis and imperial Japanese had a point when they dismissed the hypocrisy of western colonialists.

[jillian]

Oh my goodness they have already admitted it was no where near 6 million. They changed it to 4 million and now 1.2 million. Studies show it was a lot lower than that.

no one changed it. but thank you for admitting you're a holocaust denier.

no surprises.

[roadmaster]

no one changed it. but thank you for admitting you're a holocaust denier.

no surprises. The Jewish people did, I though you said you were. Yes I am a truth seeker unlike some.

[Mister D]

I heard about how they found Nazi plans for the invasion of South America. I don't think they had a limit.

The only threat Nazi Germany posed to the US was in her resistance to the liberal, capitalist world order.

[Guerilla]

I can't believe we are still talking about how many jews died. I mean wow. We all agree that a lot of them died, and we even discussed how their is no difference between 1 million and 6 million because the act of mass genocide is an act of mass genocide- no matter how many, it's still an atrocity.

[Dr. Who]

Oh my goodness they have already admitted it was no where near 6 million. They changed it to 4 million and now 1.2 million. Studies show it was a lot lower than that.

$1.2M was the Jewish death toll at Birkenau alone. There were quite a number of other death camps built - Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno and Majdanek .

[The Xl]

Believing the Holocaust numbers to be inflated doesn't make you a denier.

[roadmaster]

Believing the Holocaust numbers to be inflated doesn't make you a denier. Thank you and I am sure the Jewish people who found this out wasn't against themselves. They just wanted to know the truth. These are Jewish scholars and believers.

[Mister D]

I can't believe we are still talking about how many jews died. I mean wow. We all agree that a lot of them died, and we even discussed how their is no difference between 1 million and 6 million because the act of mass genocide is an act of mass genocide- no matter how many, it's still an atrocity.

It is off-putting, isn't it.

[roadmaster]

$1.2M was the Jewish death toll at Birkenau alone. There were quite a number of other death camps built - Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno and Majdanek . That's not what they found.

[The Xl]

I can't believe we are still talking about how many jews died. I mean wow. We all agree that a lot of them died, and we even discussed how their is no difference between 1 million and 6 million because the act of mass genocide is an act of mass genocide- no matter how many, it's still an atrocity.

Of course it doesn't change that fact. However, if the numbers were inflated, you have to wonder why they would do that.

[Guerilla]

The only threat Nazi Germany posed to the US was in her resistance to the liberal, capitalist world order.

But weren't the Germans funded by American capitalists. I don't think they would have been at odds with each other, at least not to the extent the americans and the soviets were.

But I was referring to conquest of the continent of South America. I don't know of Nazi plans for the USA. I don't think they would have attacked us though, if it weren't from pressure from their Japanes Allies that needed help, and because America was supplying Britain for their war effort.

[Mister D]

I am curious about the methodology.

[roadmaster]

Of course it doesn't change that fact. However, if the numbers were inflated, you have to wonder why they would do that. They explain how the numbers got messed up. Even a lot of the ones spreading this were not even at the camps just trying to get fame.

[Mister D]

But weren't the Germans were funded by American capitalists. I don't think they would have been at odds with each other, at least not to the extent the americans and the soviets were.

But I was referring to conquest of the continent of South America. I don't know of Nazi plans for the USA. I don't think they would have attacked us though, if it weren't from pressure from their Japanes Allies that needed help, and because America was supplying Britain for their war effort.

That American businessmen saw opportunities in Germany suggests only what we all know: businessmen want to make money and aren't always interested in the big picture or ideas.

I've heard of this document but the concept seems so far fetched it would not surprise me if it was a fraud. It is true that the Nazis had schemes (albeit distant ones) for South America. They were actually many Nazi sympathizers there. South America was a destination for war criminals for that reason.

[Dr. Who]

Believing the Holocaust numbers to be inflated doesn't make you a denier.

I'm afraid that those internet sources that seek to minimize the Jewish death toll, do so to try to diminish the impact of the genocidal attack in the eyes of the world. Given the short amount of time it took the Nazis to exterminate up to six million Jews, since the extermination program only began in 1942, had the war lasted only a year or so longer, they would have accomplished their goal. At the onset of the war in 1939 there were 18M Jews, world wide, with the majority - 11M or 61% in Europe. I don't imagine any ethnicity would soon forget or dismiss any attempt to remove their gene pool from the face of the planet. For non-Jews, perhaps dead is dead and all mass murder is equivalent, but for those who were specifically targeted for annihilation, there is a personal aspect to the horror.

[jillian]

I'm afraid that those internet sources that seek to minimize the Jewish death toll, do so to try to diminish the impact of the genocidal attack in the eyes of the world. Given the short amount of time it took the Nazis to exterminate up to six million Jews, since the extermination program only began in 1942, had the war lasted only a year or so longer, they would have accomplished their goal. At the onset of the war in 1939 there were 18M Jews, world wide, with the majority - 11M or 61% in Europe. I don't imagine any ethnicity would soon forget or dismiss any attempt to remove their gene pool from the face of the planet. For non-Jews, perhaps dead is dead and all mass murder is equivalent, but for those who were specifically targeted for annihilation, there is a personal aspect to the horror.

and, once again, the nazis were meticulous in their record keeping. they wrote all of it down.

[roadmaster]

and, once again, the nazis were meticulous in their record keeping. they wrote all of it down. Wrong they found no evidence of such.

[Mister D]

and, once again, the nazis were meticulous in their record keeping. they wrote all of it down.

That's true.

[Codename Section]

and, once again, the nazis were meticulous in their record keeping. they wrote all of it down.

IBM helped them. They came up with the number tattooing system. When I read that I was like fucking shit.

[Chris]

no one changed it. but thank you for admitting you're a holocaust denier.

no surprises.


She is questioning the number, she is not denying anything. Apparently you can't dispute the numbers so you make up a straw man again and again and again.

[Chris]

Believing the Holocaust numbers to be inflated doesn't make you a denier.

Some like to stretch the truth.

Meh, it makes them look bad.

[Mister D]

Wrong they found no evidence of such.

I have two death notices. One from Auschwitz and one from Buchenwald. They are both for political prisoners though and it says death was "accidental" (yeah, right).

[Chris]

I'm afraid that those internet sources that seek to minimize the Jewish death toll, do so to try to diminish the impact of the genocidal attack in the eyes of the world. Given the short amount of time it took the Nazis to exterminate up to six million Jews, since the extermination program only began in 1942, had the war lasted only a year or so longer, they would have accomplished their goal. At the onset of the war in 1939 there were 18M Jews, world wide, with the majority - 11M or 61% in Europe. I don't imagine any ethnicity would soon forget or dismiss any attempt to remove their gene pool from the face of the planet. For non-Jews, perhaps dead is dead and all mass murder is equivalent, but for those who were specifically targeted for annihilation, there is a personal aspect to the horror.


Thing is, who, diminishing is not denying--you know that by your choice of words. And, thankfully, you don't try to attack another member for questioning the numbers.

[Mister D]

IBM helped them. They came up with the number tattooing system. When I read that I was like fucking shit.

Porsche made the Tiger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_II#Development

Mitsubishi made the Zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_A6M_Zero

[roadmaster]

The Red Cross, who had access to all the forced-work camps throughout the war estimated that between 300,000 and 350,000 Jews died while interned.
The six million number is taken directly from Talmudic prophecy. Six million has been used regularly by the Zionists, particularly during the late 1800's, during WW1 and of course WW2. There are many online press clippings that emphatically demonstrate this.

[Mister D]

RM, they even took pictures.

5407

I'm not sure what's more fucked up: the act depicted or the act of taking the photo as a souvenir.

That said, the numbers could very well be inflated for political purposes.

[roadmaster]

RM, they even took pictures.

5407

I'm not sure what's more fucked up: the act depicted or the act of taking the photo as a souvenir.

That said, the numbers could very well be inflated for political purposes.

It was war, I never said people were not killed and yes even Christian pastors and nuns but the numbers are wrong.

[Mister D]

It was war, I never said people were not killed and yes even Christian pastors and nuns but the numbers are wrong.

That's not war. That's murder.

They might be.

[Guerilla]

That American businessmen saw opportunities in Germany suggests only what we all know: businessmen want to make money and aren't always interested in the big picture or ideas.

I've heard of this document but the concept seems so far fetched it would not surprise me if it was a fraud. It is true that the Nazis had schemes (albeit distant ones) for South America. They were actually many Nazi sympathizers there. South America was a destination for war criminals for that reason.

Why is it far fetched? It was the Nazis. Far fetched was their forte.

The Germans could've swept through south America no problem. Maybe done some easy imperialism, like America.

[Mister D]

Why is it far fetched? It was the Nazis. Far fetched was their forte.

The Germans could've swept through south America no problem. Maybe done some easy imperialism, like America.

Nazi interests were in the east. The Drang nach Osten loomed large in their imagination. Hitler actually had a good grasp of European history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten

[roadmaster]

“I promise you I am quite free from all racial hatred. It is, in my case, undesirable that one race should mix with other races. Except for a few gratuitous successes, which I am prepared to admit, systematic cross-breeding has never produced good results. It’s desire to remain racially pure is proof of the vitality and good health of a race. Pride in one’s own race — is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.”
-Adolf Hitler
Anyone against him was his enemy. He also worshiped Darwin.

[Mister D]

Leading Nazis did in fact admire the Japanese and Islam.

[Mister D]

Cool thread. Must be keeping the mods busy though. :grin:

[Guerilla]

Nazi interests were in the east. The Drang nach Osten loomed large in their imagination. Hitler actually had a good grasp of European history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten

When you say east I thought you were talking about Tibet and Iran. I know they sent expeditions there and were fascinated by it's Aryan history.

But you think they just wanted to extend to eastern Europe? So you think they would have contained themselves?

[Chris]

“I promise you I am quite free from all racial hatred. It is, in my case, undesirable that one race should mix with other races. Except for a few gratuitous successes, which I am prepared to admit, systematic cross-breeding has never produced good results. It’s desire to remain racially pure is proof of the vitality and good health of a race. Pride in one’s own race — is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.”
-Adolf Hitler
Anyone against him was his enemy. He also worshiped Darwin.

No, he worshipped progressive Social Darwinism borrowing on the ideas for euthanasia.

Social Darwinism says you can design man and engineer society. Darwinian evolution says it's undesigned.

[Mister D]

When you say east I thought you were talking about Tibet and Iran. I know they sent expeditions there and were fascinated by it's Aryan history.

But you think they just wanted to extend to eastern Europe? So you think they would have contained themselves?

That's some weird shit. Some of them were really into that occult stuff. Hitler actually thought it was silly though.

Yes, I think so. Who knows for sure though? We can only guess.

[roadmaster]

No, he worshipped progressive Social Darwinism borrowing on the ideas for euthanasia.

Social Darwinism says you can design man and engineer society. Darwinian evolution says it's undesigned.

He did believe in survival of the fittest. Even tried to promote peace at one time that they don't show before the war.He crossed the line when he started killing people. He thought Christians were weak minded and would have killed all of them if he didn't need them. I agree social Darwinism.

[Chris]

He did believe in survival of the fittest. Even tried to promote peace at one time that they don't show before the war.He crossed the line when he started killing people. He thought Christians were weak minded and would have killed all of them if he didn't need them. I agree social Darwinism.

Survival of the fittest was the core of Social Darwinistic scientism.

Hitler is the worst of humanity, no arguing that!

[roadmaster]

Ok but watch this video Mister D Chris and see how many times the Jews claim 6 million years before Hitler in papers also in other countries. http://helpfreetheearth.com/news951_holocaust.html

[Chris]

Ok but watch this video Mister D Chris and see how many times the Jews claim 6 million years before Hitler in papers also in other countries. http://helpfreetheearth.com/news951_holocaust.html

6M seems to crop up all over the place.

Let's see if someone has counterevidence, besides what's been generally accepted. Or see if you and others get attacked personally again. If we can't have a civil discussion about this, then something is seriously wrong here.