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Common
03-04-2014, 09:18 AM
But I do not eat tons of red meat and when I do I do my best to buy it or order it from places that do not use mass butchered boxed beef. These big meat packers are what have all the recalls.
Hanging beef is safer and butchered at the source. It doesnt come precut in boxs.
Ive always eaten tons of produce, because I like it. Lately ive been buying quinoa they call it the super grain. Read on it if you care too.

Ive been buying different vegan foods in costco mostly and the other day I bought Vegan Quinoa Spinach cakes that also have no fat ricotta cheese and carrots and spices. 50 calories each and for me they replace the starch. They were excellent it said to try the cakes with eggs for breakfast, I havent done that. I also bought and tried a vegan main dish, with assorted veggies and Non gluten grain and that was really good, had great flavor and texture.
Next time ill have some grilled chicken with it, I know that defeats the purpose but I said im not a vegan.

I get tired of eating the same thing day in and day out and my wife and I take turns cooking and we try different things

My wife and I have enjoyed healthy lives and we want to extend that as long as possible.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 12:02 PM
There is actually a lot of good reasons to get variety in your diet. The first one that comes to mind is gut bacteria. Certain gut bacteria can influence obesity and such. The data on mice is quite interesting actually.

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 02:27 PM
You're talking about not eating meat, which is Vegetarian. Vegan means no animal products whatsoever. Those eggs you mentioned would be considered something a vegan couldn't eat.

Vegan people piss me off, especially with stuff like honey. We're not "exploiting" bees for their honey. That's what they do. It makes them happy to produce it.

Anyway good luck with what you're doing, just don't become an arrogant elitist about it like most vegetarians/vegans.

Captain Obvious
03-04-2014, 02:29 PM
You're talking about not eating meat, which is Vegetarian. Vegan means no animal products whatsoever. Those eggs you mentioned would be considered something a vegan couldn't eat.

Vegan people piss me off, especially with stuff like honey. We're not "exploiting" bees for their honey. That's what they do. It makes them happy to produce it.

Anyway good luck with what you're doing, just don't become an arrogant elitist about it like most vegetarians/vegans.

They're kinda like obnoxious atheists.

"look at me, I'm not [fill in the blank]"

Ravi
03-04-2014, 02:47 PM
You're talking about not eating meat, which is Vegetarian. Vegan means no animal products whatsoever. Those eggs you mentioned would be considered something a vegan couldn't eat.

Vegan people piss me off, especially with stuff like honey. We're not "exploiting" bees for their honey. That's what they do. It makes them happy to produce it.

Anyway good luck with what you're doing, just don't become an arrogant elitist about it like most vegetarians/vegans.
Sure we are exploiting them. And how would you know the mind of a bee?

Talk about an arrogant elitist.

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 04:16 PM
Sure we are exploiting them. And how would you know the mind of a bee?

Talk about an arrogant elitist.

Reported. I'm not saying I know the mind of a bee, stop sticking words in my mouth.

It's the science of what a bee is. They make honey and it doesn't harm them at all to do so.

/Edit: Captain Obvious understands.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 04:18 PM
Reported. I'm not saying I know the mind of a bee, stop sticking words in my mouth.

It's the science of what a bee is. They make honey and it doesn't harm them at all to do so.

/Edit: Captain Obvious understands.

Not to mention that human ownership of bees guarantees their survival.

Same for cows, pigs etc...

That which we like, survives and thrives under human stewardship.

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 04:19 PM
Right, otherwise the bees would all be flying around and getting killed by the environmentalist wackos' wind turbines.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 05:47 PM
Not to mention that human ownership of bees guarantees their survival.

Same for cows, pigs etc...

That which we like, survives and thrives under human stewardship.

Well, half true. Human ownership of animals like cows and pigs only guarantees their survival until they are slaughtered. We basically maintain their existence until we decide to kill them at our discretion. That's not really "thriving" it's just existing. Plus we harm many other animal species and natural resources that benefit many more lives on Earth in order to maintain those practices for cows, pigs, chickens, eggs, and so on. Human stewardship has in a way diminished the lives of many animals that we deem to be both important and unimportant, but yet we pat ourselves on our backs.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 05:48 PM
Right, otherwise the bees would all be flying around and getting killed by the environmentalist wackos' wind turbines.

You're joking right?

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 05:59 PM
You're joking right?

G-C? Don't bet on it. :smiley:

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 06:34 PM
You're joking right?

They kill birds, I bet they kill bees too, since bees are smaller and weaker.

Think of the bees.

I'm mostly joking, but all my jokes are based in fact.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 07:05 PM
They kill birds, I bet they kill bees too, since bees are smaller and weaker.

Think of the bees.

I'm mostly joking, but all my jokes are based in fact.

Humans kills more birds than a wind turbine could ever dream of killing. There never seems to be much concern for the literally millions of animals killed every single day by the combined efforts of slaughterhouses, guns (hunting), chemicals, cars, planes, trash (choking/ingestion), and so on, but yet wind turbines worry those people who are more interested in seeing an environmentalist squirm for a moment.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 07:07 PM
Humans kills more birds than a wind turbine could ever dream of killing. There never seems to be much concern for the literally millions of animals killed every single day by the combined efforts of slaughterhouses, guns (hunting), chemicals, cars, planes, trash (choking/ingestion), and so on, but yet wind turbines worry those people who are more interested in seeing an environmentalist squirm for a moment.

Did you know feral cats account for a great many dead birds? A billion they say.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 07:09 PM
My last cat, OJ, killed a crap load of birds! :smiley:


Did you know feral cats account for a great many dead birds? A billion they say.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 07:10 PM
Humans kills more birds than a wind turbine could ever dream of killing. There never seems to be much concern for the literally millions of animals killed every single day by the combined efforts of slaughterhouses, guns (hunting), chemicals, cars, planes, trash (choking/ingestion), and so on, but yet wind turbines worry those people who are more interested in seeing an environmentalist squirm for a moment.

It's all about the irony.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 07:11 PM
My last cat, OJ, killed a crap load of birds! :smiley:

nah. It was the other killer. :wink: :laugh:

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 07:12 PM
nah. It was the other killer. :wink: :laugh: Nah, I watched him do it. He made me proud. My mom had to put him down a few months ago.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 07:15 PM
Nah, I watched him do it. He made me proud. My mom had to put him down a few months ago.

You're killing me! That was a great OJ reference. The "other killer"! Dang it, Pete! :angry:

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 07:19 PM
You're killing me! That was a great OJ reference. The "other killer"! Dang it, Pete! :angry:

I named him after the Juice. A friend of mine, a US Marshal at the time, found him on the side of the road and he brought the cat to my apartment. OJ, the dude, was rolling down the road in the White Bronco (on the TV) with a gun to his head, and I grabbed the cat by the back of the neck, held him up so he could see the TV and said "That is your name, OJ. I won't let them put you in jail." :smiley: And he is, I mean was, a grey tabby, so he fit the part.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 07:24 PM
I always liked cats. I'm too lazy and detached for a dog.

donttread
03-04-2014, 07:30 PM
My last cat, OJ, killed a crap load of birds! :smiley:

I've been to the bottom of wind turbines before and never saw even one dead bird. It's over blown. If a duck flies into it and drops the other ducks will change their root, otherwise they'd be extinct

Ravi
03-04-2014, 07:47 PM
Reported. I'm not saying I know the mind of a bee, stop sticking words in my mouth.

It's the science of what a bee is. They make honey and it doesn't harm them at all to do so.

/Edit: Captain Obvious understands.reported? What a weasel you've turned out to bee. They kill the queens before the natural life cycle. That's exploiting.

Ravi
03-04-2014, 07:48 PM
Not to mention that human ownership of bees guarantees their survival.

Same for cows, pigs etc...

That which we like, survives and thrives under human stewardship.link?

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 07:48 PM
I've been to the bottom of wind turbines before and never saw even one dead bird. It's over blown. If a duck flies into it and drops the other ducks will change their root, otherwise they'd be extinct


It really doesn't matter because the new windmills don't have big bird-killing blades.

Ravi
03-04-2014, 07:49 PM
They kill birds, I bet they kill bees too, since bees are smaller and weaker.

Think of the bees.

I'm mostly joking, but all my jokes are based in fact.are you a bee? Serious question

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 07:51 PM
It really doesn't matter because the new windmills don't have big bird-killing blades.

...But the new Solar things they have turn birds into enough friend chicken that they could open a KFC:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304703804579379230641329484

I hear Chicago wants one.

GrassrootsConservative
03-04-2014, 07:53 PM
are you a bee? Serious question

I'm not a bee, bee less silly.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 08:10 PM
You won't find real chicken at KFC.


...But the new Solar things they have turn birds into enough friend chicken that they could open a KFC:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304703804579379230641329484

I hear Chicago wants one.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:11 PM
Actually, bees are becoming endangered, not because of humans but because of a virus that is attacking the hive. Humans are actually working to insure the health of bees, without us they would die out. We need bees to pollinate certain crops. Bees produce far more honey then they need and we use it. You do realize do you not that honey is basically bee poop.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 08:15 PM
Actually man made pesticides are killing the bees (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/bee-killing-pesticide-found-garden-store-plants-what-does-it-f6C10919523).

While the effeminate warminsts are wringing their hands about man-made global warming, humans may well just be destroying the food chain in a real way.


“Our investigation is the first to show that so called 'bee-friendly' garden plants contain pesticides that can actually poison bees, with no warning to gardeners," Lisa Archer, director of the Food and Technology Program at Friends of the Earth-US, said in a news release (http://www.foe.org/news/news-releases/2013-08-bee-die-offs-new-tests-find-bee-killing-pesticides) accompanying Wednesday's 34-page report (http://libcloud.s3.amazonaws.com/93/07/d/3118/Gardeners_beware_report_8-13-13-acknts.pdf). “Bees are essential to our food system and they are dying at alarming rates. Neonic pesticides are a key part of the problem we can start to fix right now in our own backyards."






Actually, bees are becoming endangered, not because of humans but because of a virus that is attacking the hive. Humans are actually working to insure the health of bees, without us they would die out. We need bees to pollinate certain crops. Bees produce far more honey then they need and we use it. You do realize do you not that honey is basically bee poop.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:17 PM
Did you know feral cats account for a great many dead birds? A billion they say.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year


I have bird feeders all over my yard. I found several dead birds under one of them. I changed out the seeds in case they were poisoned for some reason. One day I decided to move a large flower pot next to the feeder. When I did a spider came out about the size of a medium toad. The spider was hiding under the flower pot and would attack and eat birds that feed on the seed that spilled out of the feeder.

Everything that is not strictly vegetarian kills for its food. Some people have this rather naive viewpoint that all animals live in harmony and its only humans that kill other creatures.

Ravi
03-04-2014, 08:17 PM
Actually, bees are becoming endangered, not because of humans but because of a virus that is attacking the hive. Humans are actually working to insure the health of bees, without us they would die out. We need bees to pollinate certain crops. Bees produce far more honey then they need and we use it. You do realize do you not that honey is basically bee poop.
Right pesticides have nothing to do with it. And it is vomit, not poop.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:20 PM
It really doesn't matter because the new windmills don't have big bird-killing blades.


Nope, they all have small bird killing blades.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:21 PM
I'm not a bee, bee less silly.

Pay no attention to her, she is just droning to hear herself buzz

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 08:32 PM
Well, half true. Human ownership of animals like cows and pigs only guarantees their survival until they are slaughtered. We basically maintain their existence until we decide to kill them at our discretion. That's not really "thriving" it's just existing. Plus we harm many other animal species and natural resources that benefit many more lives on Earth in order to maintain those practices for cows, pigs, chickens, eggs, and so on. Human stewardship has in a way diminished the lives of many animals that we deem to be both important and unimportant, but yet we pat ourselves on our backs.

Some stewards are wiser than others. It isn't that ownership or stewardship of the earth is innately wrong though. Certain people just suck at it.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 08:33 PM
Humans kills more birds than a wind turbine could ever dream of killing. There never seems to be much concern for the literally millions of animals killed every single day by the combined efforts of slaughterhouses, guns (hunting), chemicals, cars, planes, trash (choking/ingestion), and so on, but yet wind turbines worry those people who are more interested in seeing an environmentalist squirm for a moment.

If they didn't die, they would pile up mighty fast. Death is a good thing in its proper season.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 08:35 PM
link?

See: Reality.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:42 PM
Well, it appears that God made a serious mistake when he created humans. It seems that all of the ills of the planet are caused by man. Perhaps we should take Mother Earth New's advise and start limiting ourselves. I would suggest we start with all the arrogant posters like Ravi.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 08:51 PM
Not really. (http://cleantechnica.com/2012/09/04/bird-safe-wind-turbines-may-soon-take-flight/)


Nope, they all have small bird killing blades.

nathanbforrest45
03-04-2014, 08:56 PM
There are many reasons that bee colonies are dying out. Pesticides are but one of the reasons. The truth is we don't know why the colonies are collapsing.
http://science.time.com/2013/05/07/beepocalypse-redux-honey-bees-are-still-dying-and-we-still-dont-know-why/


And poop or vomit, what difference does it make, its still bee waste.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:13 PM
Well, it appears that God made a serious mistake when he created humans. It seems that all of the ills of the planet are caused by man. Perhaps we should take Mother Earth New's advise and start limiting ourselves. I would suggest we start with all the arrogant posters like Ravi.

It is an uncomfortable but undeniable fact in my opinion that humans contribute very little to the Earth when compared to millions, if not billions, of other animal species....not even including plants which would make us even less necessary in comparison. Can you list one thing that human beings contribute to an ecosystem that isn't man-made or a response to a man-made act or influence? For example, a simple, tiny honey bee pollinates thousands of flowers naturally resulting in healthy and thriving ecosystems and contributes to the balance of nature. Humans eat honey and mow down those flowers to build a parking garage.

FYI i'm not saying that humans can't make positive contributions, but to think that we are a wonderful and responsible species for this planet is fantasy when compared to sooooo many other species.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:23 PM
I have bird feeders all over my yard. I found several dead birds under one of them. I changed out the seeds in case they were poisoned for some reason. One day I decided to move a large flower pot next to the feeder. When I did a spider came out about the size of a medium toad. The spider was hiding under the flower pot and would attack and eat birds that feed on the seed that spilled out of the feeder.

Everything that is not strictly vegetarian kills for its food. Some people have this rather naive viewpoint that all animals live in harmony and its only humans that kill other creatures.

I really don't think that there are a lot of people that believe that nature is like the movie Bambi or anything like that. I know, and everyone else that thinks like me, knows that nature is not hugs and rainbows, however, the issue that many people have with how humans interact with nature is that humans tend to arrogantly go beyond what is natural in my opinion and cause more harm than good. For example there IS a difference between a mountain lion killing a deer in a natural environment ensuring its survival and a rancher promoting a hunting club meant to kill animals for sport. There IS a difference between a snake killing a rabbit in its natural environment and humans killing millions of turkeys for a single holiday.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 09:26 PM
love


It is an uncomfortable but undeniable fact in my opinion that humans contribute very little to the Earth when compared to millions, if not billions, of other animal species....not even including plants which would make us even less necessary in comparison. Can you list one thing that human beings contribute to an ecosystem that isn't man-made or a response to a man-made act or influence? For example, a simple, tiny honey bee pollinates thousands of flowers naturally resulting in healthy and thriving ecosystems and contributes to the balance of nature. Humans eat honey and mow down those flowers to build a parking garage.

FYI i'm not saying that humans can't make positive contributions, but to think that we are a wonderful and responsible species for this planet is fantasy when compared to sooooo many other species.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:27 PM
love

...to an ecosystem, not its own species, and it's been shown that other animal species show love and emotion as well.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 09:30 PM
What do the vast majority of species "contribute" other than occupying a spot on the food chain? Seriously, I'm an "Earthy" guy but these anti-human sentiments are both disturbing and alienating.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:34 PM
What do the vast majority of species "contribute" other than occupying a spot on the food chain? Seriously, I'm an "Earthy" guy but these anti-human sentiments are both disturbing and alienating.

It's not about taking offense to having your species called out. Not all species contribute more than one thing for example. There are contributions that many animals have evolved to make or that are specialized to contribute to something that benefits ALL life on this planet. I'm simply asking what do humans naturally contribute that helps an ecosystem? It's not human bashing or anything like that or anti-human, but it does make you open your eyes to the selfishness and self-importance that our species often displays in my opinion. We can't do better if we don't recognize our faults and shortcomings and realize that perhaps we aren't as perfect as we believe we are as a species.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 09:35 PM
...to an ecosystem, not its own species, and it's been shown that other animal species show love and emotion as well. I don't believe you Chloe. Maybe the emotion I can give you.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:37 PM
I don't believe you Chloe. Maybe the emotion I can give you.

What do you mean by that?

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 09:39 PM
What do you mean by that? The love part with animals.

I can grant emotion. Just not the love stuff.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:41 PM
The love part with animals.

I can grant emotion. Just not the love stuff.

You don't think that families and unbreakable bonds don't exist outside of our species? Our species doesn't own the concept of "love" in my opinion.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 09:43 PM
It's not about taking offense to having your species called out.

That was such a weird thing to say. :grin:



Not all species contribute more than one thing for example. There are contributions that many animals have evolved to make or that are specialized to contribute to something that benefits ALL life on this planet. I'm simply asking what do humans naturally contribute that helps an ecosystem? It's not human bashing or anything like that or anti-human, but it does make you open your eyes to the selfishness and self-importance that our species often displays in my opinion. We can't do better if we don't recognize our faults and shortcomings and realize that perhaps we aren't as perfect as we believe we are as a species.



Yes, occupying a place on the food chain helps the whole ecosystem but I don't think most species "contribute" beyond that.

Chloe, have we met? Man's perfectibility is hardly something I believe in.

Germanicus
03-04-2014, 09:44 PM
You don't think that families and unbreakable bonds don't exist outside of our species? Our species doesn't own the concept of "love" in my opinion.

I agree. Someone told me that a hare has only one partner for life. Im pretty sure lots of birds are that way too. If their parter dies they do not look for a new one.

Often pets like a cat and a dog that love at the same place will form an unbreakable bond.

edit- Budgies. Think the hare thing is wrong. Budgies mate for life I think.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/photos/11-animals-that-mate-for-life/old-faithful

edit- thats awesome. For years I thought that hares only had one partner and it made me feel bad because I shot a hare once. I feel much better about it now.

edit- whoever told me that was just fucking with me. I can be way too trusting and gullible.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 09:44 PM
You don't think that families and unbreakable bonds don't exist outside of our species? Our species doesn't own the concept of "love" in my opinion.

In the sense that humans use the term, yes I do think we own it. Chloe, don't project human emotions on animals. They don't have the brain structure to support that view. At best, they can only match our reptilian brain. And that doesn't get you to your conclusions above.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 09:45 PM
That was such a weird thing to say. :grin:




Yes, occupying a place on the food chain helps the whole ecosystem but I don't think most species "contribute" beyond that.

Chloe, have we met? Man's perfectibility is hardly something I believe in.

Speak for yourself.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 09:46 PM
I agree. Someone told me that a hare has only one partner for life. Im pretty sure lots of birds are that way too. If their parter dies they do not look for a new one.

Often pets like a cat and a dog that love at the same place will form an unbreakable bond.

In China, it's not so easy to find a partner now that they aborted so many girls. :smiley:

Mister D
03-04-2014, 09:47 PM
Speak for yourself.

Didn't I?


Man's perfectibility is hardly something I believe in.

:huh:

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:47 PM
That was such a weird thing to say. :grin:

Well i'm a weird person, so....



Yes, occupying a place on the food chain helps the whole ecosystem but I don't think most species "contribute" beyond that.

sure they do. Just because something can be eaten by something bigger doesn't mean that that's its only job in nature.


Chloe, have we met? Man's perfectibility is hardly something I believe in.

Yes you are right, you are far from perfect :)

Mister D
03-04-2014, 09:51 PM
Well i'm a weird person, so....




sure they do. Just because something can be eaten by something bigger doesn't mean that that's its only job in nature.



Yes you are right, you are far from perfect :)

Just don't call my species out or I'll call out yours. :afro:

Their primary role is a place on the food chain. That role of course goes both ways.

Indeed. We all are.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:52 PM
In the sense that humans use the term, yes I do think we own it. Chloe, don't project human emotions on animals. They don't have the brain structure to support that view. At best, they can only match our reptilian brain. And that doesn't get you to your conclusions above.

We own the word, not necessarily the emotion. If love didn't have a word attached to it to make it known how would it be described or seen to someone/something viewing it? Would a mother whale guarding its calf from predators staying close and showing sadness or joy depending on the outcome not count as love? Would a mother whale raising its calf till its mature enough to go out on its own and teaching it behaviors that would contribute to its life and health not constitute as an act of love and devotion between a mother and child? Do humans not do those exact same things out of love?

Germanicus
03-04-2014, 09:57 PM
We own the word, not necessarily the emotion. If love didn't have a word attached to it to make it known how would it be described or seen to someone/something viewing it?

Limerence?

edit- unrequited love is the real love. And few can comprehend it. Unrequited love is the true love.


Corinthians 13:4-8

New International Version (NIV)

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13:4-8

The hardest thing is to love your enemies. Animals cant do that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl-wl4H_nBQ

(: Have you guys seen that Rock of Love show? Thats real good that is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OT7iFtE1Ak

Chloe
03-04-2014, 09:58 PM
But I do not eat tons of red meat and when I do I do my best to buy it or order it from places that do not use mass butchered boxed beef. These big meat packers are what have all the recalls.
Hanging beef is safer and butchered at the source. It doesnt come precut in boxs.
Ive always eaten tons of produce, because I like it. Lately ive been buying quinoa they call it the super grain. Read on it if you care too.

Ive been buying different vegan foods in costco mostly and the other day I bought Vegan Quinoa Spinach cakes that also have no fat ricotta cheese and carrots and spices. 50 calories each and for me they replace the starch. They were excellent it said to try the cakes with eggs for breakfast, I havent done that. I also bought and tried a vegan main dish, with assorted veggies and Non gluten grain and that was really good, had great flavor and texture.
Next time ill have some grilled chicken with it, I know that defeats the purpose but I said im not a vegan.

I get tired of eating the same thing day in and day out and my wife and I take turns cooking and we try different things

My wife and I have enjoyed healthy lives and we want to extend that as long as possible.

People would be surprised by how easy and healthy it can be to not eat animals. They just have to give it a chance.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:00 PM
You're talking about not eating meat, which is Vegetarian. Vegan means no animal products whatsoever. Those eggs you mentioned would be considered something a vegan couldn't eat.

Vegan people piss me off, especially with stuff like honey. We're not "exploiting" bees for their honey. That's what they do. It makes them happy to produce it.

Anyway good luck with what you're doing, just don't become an arrogant elitist about it like most vegetarians/vegans.

am I one of those arrogant elitist vegetarians/vegans?

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 10:06 PM
I certainly don't want to take away what animals have. It just doesn't compare to the range that we as humans experience. Instinct is a wonderful thing. But, Chloe I asked about brain structure, and the ability that gives us.


We own the word, not necessarily the emotion. If love didn't have a word attached to it to make it known how would it be described or seen to someone/something viewing it? Would a mother whale guarding its calf from predators staying close and showing sadness or joy depending on the outcome not count as love? Would a mother whale raising its calf till its mature enough to go out on its own and teaching it behaviors that would contribute to its life and health not constitute as an act of love and devotion between a mother and child? Do humans not do those exact same things out of love?

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 10:07 PM
People would be surprised by how easy and healthy it can be to not eat animals. They just have to give it a chance.

I tried and it made me sick. But I am 100% sure that it works for others. Check out metabolic typing.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 10:11 PM
What do the vast majority of species "contribute" other than occupying a spot on the food chain? Seriously, I'm an "Earthy" guy but these anti-human sentiments are both disturbing and alienating.

I kind of agree here. Nothing wrong with respecting life and such. But elevating it to being more important that us humans is a mistake.

Humans produce all kinds of things - things we make out of nature. Like the computer your typing on. Chloe.

We aren't the raw producers like plants and animals, we are the ultimate refiners of raw goods.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:11 PM
Limerence?

edit- unrequited love is the real love. And few can comprehend it. Unrequited love is the true love.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13:4-8

The hardest thing is to love your enemies. Animals cant do that.

Animals don't have to, they don't have to love their enemies out of fear of the unknown or fear of retaliation from a faith's doctrine. It's not that animals can't it's just the thought, the concept, doesn't exist and it doesn't have to exist in the natural world. Plus the bible is a man-made, the religious aspects of loving your neighbor is a human concept, the wording is a human thought put down on paper. You are applying human concepts and creations to other animal species that have no attachment or connection to it. It's not fair to the other animal in my opinion to make those kinds of comparisons. It would be like a dolphin pod saying in their own language to each other that since human beings can't use sonar to track and catch fish therefor they are lesser beings because of it. We wouldn't even be able to understand a click that they make under water anymore than they would understand a bible if you put it infront of them.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:14 PM
I kind of agree here. Nothing wrong with respecting life and such. But elevating it to being more important that us humans is a mistake.

Humans produce all kinds of things - things we make out of nature. Like the computer your typing on. @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565).

We aren't the raw producers like plants and animals, we are the ultimate refiners of raw goods.

My computer will not go back to nature though when it's done or when I die. What we produce is for the most part unnatural and doesn't go back to the Earth. 99.9% of all other animal and plant species leave no unnatural trace during or after their lifetime. Our trace is everywhere, and it's mostly unnatural.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:16 PM
I should make it known that I don't hate human beings. I don't hate myself or anything like that. All I am saying is that we tend do more harm than good when it comes to our impact on this planet and our interactions with other species, and even really our own. It's something that I firmly believe we need to discover as a species sooner rather than later if we want a long future on this planet and for that planet to be healthy for ALL life and not just us.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 10:17 PM
People would be surprised by how easy and healthy it can be to not eat animals. They just have to give it a chance.

So do you have a beef against predators in general? Or just human predators?

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:19 PM
So do you have a beef against predators in general? Or just human predators?

just human predators. I have no real control over what another animal does in nature, I also don't have control over you, but since I speak a language that other humans understand and since I am a human myself I feel that I can hopefully try to change some minds. I can't convince a bear to not eat that deer and just focus on blueberries. It would either run away from me or maul me.

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 10:21 PM
My computer will not go back to nature though when it's done or when I die. What we produce is for the most part unnatural and doesn't go back to the Earth. 99.9% of all other animal and plant species leave no unnatural trace during or after their lifetime. Our trace is everywhere, and it's mostly unnatural.

It is perfectly natural, unless it manages to shoot it self into high orbit or it manages to achieve absolute zero indefinitely - chemistry and physics get in the way of your assertion Chloe.

Mad made objects decompose just like anything else - albeit at a much longer time frame, or shorter if desired. Everything breaks down. That and we have the tech to recycle it and such.

Incineration does wonders I tell ya. Toss your laptop into an active volcano, it will be broken down into its basic elements in no time.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 10:22 PM
So no beef tartar with a quail egg on top for you, I am guessing.


just human predators. I have no real control over what another animal does in nature, I also don't have control over you, but since I speak a language that other humans understand and since I am a human myself I feel that I can hopefully try to change some minds. I can't convince a bear to not eat that deer and just focus on blueberries. It would either run away from me or maul me.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:23 PM
So no beef tartar with a quail egg on top for you, I am guessing.

yes you guessed correctly :)

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 10:27 PM
just human predators. I have no real control over what another animal does in nature, I also don't have control over you, but since I speak a language that other humans understand and since I am a human myself I feel that I can hopefully try to change some minds. I can't convince a bear to not eat that deer and just focus on blueberries. It would either run away from me or maul me.

Sure you do. You can cage up the animals and feed them what they need to survive - without killing anything, people too.

Death needs to happen to things that live.

I think your beef is with violence and your own natural superiority when compared to animals. When you figure out that you are naturally superior to the bestiary that inhabits the world with us, this concept collapses on itself. That does not mean we should be cruel and wasteful stewards of the earth though, sadly many are.

The fate of a cow on a beef farm is much more beneficent than that of a cow in the wild. One dies swiftly, sometimes humanely. The other dies by the slow decay of time, disease, or being ripped apart and eaten sometimes while still alive by predators that hunt it.

Mister D
03-04-2014, 10:32 PM
I should make it known that I don't hate human beings. I don't hate myself or anything like that. All I am saying is that we tend do more harm than good when it comes to our impact on this planet and our interactions with other species, and even really our own. It's something that I firmly believe we need to discover as a species sooner rather than later if we want a long future on this planet and for that planet to be healthy for ALL life and not just us.

I don't think you hate human beings. I think you're a compassionate young woman. I also think you engage in a leveling, if you will, of animal life that is a little dangerous. The goal may be to elevate animals but the result could be the devaluation of human beings. We are not without historical precedent. The Nazis, for example, were very green but treated humans like animals instead of the other way around.

Chloe
03-04-2014, 10:33 PM
Sure you do. You can cage up the animals and feed them what they need to survive - without killing anything, people too.

Death needs to happen to things that live.

I think your beef is with violence and your own natural superiority when compared to animals. When you figure out that you are naturally superior to the bestiary that inhabits the world with us, this concept collapses on itself. That does not mean we should be cruel and wasteful stewards of the earth though, sadly many are.

The fate of a cow on a beef farm is much more beneficent than that of a cow in the wild. One dies swiftly, sometimes humanely. The other dies by the slow decay of time, disease, or being ripped apart and eaten sometimes while still alive by predators that hunt it.

I don't want to cage anybody or anything, and I don't really believe that I am superior to all other forms of life. I think that there are so many species that can do so many things that I can't do and vice versa. There are simple species and complex species, sure, and would I say that a mosquito's life is equal to mine, obviously no since i've killed mosquitos for biting me. I just think that there is a difference between something being natural and something being constructed and then passed off as natural, if that makes sense.

Anyway. I'm hungry, not because of this thread, so i'm going to go eat something and then I have to go study for a while i'm sorry. I'll try to be back later but if i'm not i'll check it tomorrow and respond.

Peter1469
03-04-2014, 10:36 PM
yes you guessed correctly :)

Don't worry Chloe, I will eat your share. Along with mine. :smiley:

Cthulhu
03-04-2014, 10:37 PM
I don't want to cage anybody or anything, and I don't really believe that I am superior to all other forms of life. I think that there are so many species that can do so many things that I can't do and vice versa. There are simple species and complex species, sure, and would I say that a mosquito's life is equal to mine, obviously no since i've killed mosquitos for biting me. I just think that there is a difference between something being natural and something being constructed and then passed off as natural, if that makes sense.

Anyway. I'm hungry, not because of this thread, so i'm going to go eat something and then I have to go study for a while i'm sorry. I'll try to be back later but if i'm not i'll check it tomorrow and respond.

People build houses, and birds build houses. Both are natural, but one is way better at it than the other.

Ravi
03-05-2014, 05:38 AM
See: Reality.
How does human ownership of bees guarantee their survival as you claimed?

Ravi
03-05-2014, 05:39 AM
Well, it appears that God made a serious mistake when he created humans. It seems that all of the ills of the planet are caused by man. Perhaps we should take Mother Earth New's advise and start limiting ourselves. I would suggest we start with all the arrogant posters like Ravi.
I'm not the one arrogantly claiming that bees aren't harmed by agricultural methods.

Ravi
03-05-2014, 05:41 AM
There are many reasons that bee colonies are dying out. Pesticides are but one of the reasons. The truth is we don't know why the colonies are collapsing.
http://science.time.com/2013/05/07/beepocalypse-redux-honey-bees-are-still-dying-and-we-still-dont-know-why/


And poop or vomit, what difference does it make, its still bee waste.
It isn't waste. It is the primary food source of bees.

Cthulhu
03-05-2014, 10:36 AM
How does human ownership of bees guarantee their survival as you claimed?

By ensuring health and reproduction, like any other farm animal.

It isn't rocket science.

The Xl
03-05-2014, 11:22 AM
I don't think you hate human beings. I think you're a compassionate young woman. I also think you engage in a leveling, if you will, of animal life that is a little dangerous. The goal may be to elevate animals but the result could be the devaluation of human beings. We are not without historical precedent. The Nazis, for example, were very green but treated humans like animals instead of the other way around.

Human beings already do a wonderful job of devaluing other human beings and every other species their is. Needless war, slavery, racism, imprisonment of people for nonviolent "crimes," animal cruelty, killing animals for things other than food or clothing, etc.

Make no mistake, human beings overall are miserable creatures.

Mister D
03-05-2014, 11:25 AM
Human beings already do a wonderful job of devaluing other human beings and every other species their is. Needless war, slavery, racism, imprisonment of people for nonviolent "crimes," animal cruelty, killing animals for things other than food or clothing, etc.

Make no mistake, human beings overall are miserable creatures.

Agreed. Why lend that devaluation moral and intellectual support?

The Xl
03-05-2014, 01:22 PM
Agreed. Why lend that devaluation moral and intellectual support?

I guess that depends if you believe that propping up another species is automatically knocking down the human race.

How is the average human better than the average domesticated dog aside from intelligence? Honest question. Dogs are more loyal, innocent, hell, they are smarter in some areas.

Mister D
03-05-2014, 02:08 PM
I guess that depends if you believe that propping up another species is automatically knocking down the human race.

How is the average human better than the average domesticated dog aside from intelligence? Honest question. Dogs are more loyal, innocent, hell, they are smarter in some areas.

Not necessarily but can easily lead there.

Dogs are innocent only in so far as they are stupid and unable to reason. Virture entails choice. Do you think perceiving humanity as just another species helped or hindered inhumanity?

Pardon my answering a question with a question but it may be helpful in this instance: why don't we put undesired humans to sleep? Or own them etc? Right.

nathanbforrest45
03-05-2014, 07:40 PM
I'm not the one arrogantly claiming that bees aren't harmed by agricultural methods.


As I pointed out but as you have repeated shown an inability to understand, we do not know if agricultural methods are responsible for the plight of bees. I believe people of your ilk cannot stand that every malady in the world is not caused by humans and therefore must find a human action behind everything.

I am not arrogantly claiming anything except agriculture has not been proven to be the source of the problem.

nathanbforrest45
03-05-2014, 08:12 PM
I might add that I live in a community that depends on both bee keeping (several honey farms) and agriculture (corn, tomatoes and tobacco). To think that neither the farmers nor the bee keepers don't care about what happens to the bees is pure insanity. Both are highly dependent on the health of the hive.

Peter1469
03-05-2014, 08:22 PM
It is a particular type of pesticide that the bees seem to be sensitive too. There is much more evidence to support it, that the fake man-made global warming meme.


I might add that I live in a community that depends on both bee keeping (several honey farms) and agriculture (corn, tomatoes and tobacco). To think that neither the farmers nor the bee keepers don't care about what happens to the bees is pure insanity. Both are highly dependent on the health of the hive.

Common
03-06-2014, 05:18 AM
African Killer bees arent doing our Honey Bee Population any good either

Peter1469
03-06-2014, 07:22 AM
African Killer bees arent doing our Honey Bee Population any good either

Don't they just take over bee territory?

Ravi
03-06-2014, 09:41 AM
As I pointed out but as you have repeated shown an inability to understand, we do not know if agricultural methods are responsible for the plight of bees. I believe people of your ilk cannot stand that every malady in the world is not caused by humans and therefore must find a human action behind everything.

I am not arrogantly claiming anything except agriculture has not been proven to be the source of the problem.
Dude. Where I live there is a big powwow between bee keepers and orange grove owners. Spraying pesticides where the beekeepers over winter their hives was killing a lot of bees. So yes, we do know that agricultural practices harm bees.

As for the rest of your nonsense, it is just that, nonsense.

nathanbforrest45
03-06-2014, 10:25 AM
Dude. Where I live there is a big powwow between bee keepers and orange grove owners. Spraying pesticides where the beekeepers over winter their hives was killing a lot of bees. So yes, we do know that agricultural practices harm bees.

As for the rest of your nonsense, it is just that, nonsense.

Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit

All the reports state pesticides is but one of the many POSSIBILITIES of why hives are declining. Furthermore, its a world wide event.

nathanbforrest45
03-06-2014, 10:30 AM
Don't they just take over bee territory?


Yes, and that may not be a bad thing. It appears the only real drawback to the "Killer Bees" is they are more defensive than European bees. I would think about the same as hornets. The so called "Killer Bees" are responsible for up to two deaths a year in the US.

Ravi
03-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit

All the reports state pesticides is but one of the many POSSIBILITIES of why hives are declining. Furthermore, its a world wide event.

What is bullshit?

I didn't say pesticides were the only reason bees were dying. Try to keep up.

nathanbforrest45
03-06-2014, 11:26 AM
Let me ask you something Ravi. Do you think bees support civil unions?

Peter1469
03-06-2014, 11:34 AM
Let me ask you something Ravi. Do you think bees support civil unions? I think they support communal living. Blind obedience to the Queen.

Ravi
03-06-2014, 12:04 PM
Let me ask you something Ravi. Do you think bees support civil unions?Bees live in sin. A million boy bees and one queen bee. Shameful.

Mister D
03-06-2014, 12:05 PM
Bees live in sin. A million boy bees and one queen bee. Shameful.

Lets see what that wily Pope Francis has to say. :wink:

nathanbforrest45
03-06-2014, 01:03 PM
Better the Wily Pope Francis that the Wily Coyote I would think.

Common
03-08-2014, 05:49 AM
Don't they just take over bee territory?

I believe they attack the hive, kill all the american bees and take over the hive

Peter1469
03-08-2014, 10:12 AM
I believe they attack the hive, kill all the american bees and take over the hive
Damn.