PDA

View Full Version : Investigation: Pornography is Sex-Negative



IMPress Polly
03-16-2014, 09:23 AM
The proponents of pornography invariably contend that its detractors (like yours truly) are sex-negative "prudes". In that connection, I have to thank the person who conducted the investigation wh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)ose results are revealed here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular) for having the audacity to point out that the sex one observes in porn is very different from that in real life -- and how narrow-minded and elitist the world or pornography really is! At the link, you will find list of delusions that women get from digesting this material. One will observe a certain trend: that these misconceptions pornography promotes are thematically elitist, strongly favor the interests of men, and severely limit one's perception of what sex is, who can have it, and the enjoyment of it (particularly for women). Why? Because the sex industry makes its money by creating cultural ideals about how sex is supposed to be: ideals that pressure their consumers into conformity therewith -- assuming conformity is even possible for you. Without these expectations, women's sex lives -- indeed their lives in general -- could be very different: a lot loss demeaning and a lot more satisfying.

Paperback Writer
03-16-2014, 09:38 AM
These days any two people with a phone can make porn and sell it. This feels dated, imo.

junie
03-16-2014, 09:42 AM
dated? i read this article just yesterday...

Paperback Writer
03-16-2014, 09:50 AM
dated? i read this article just yesterday...

The study, love, the study.

The Xl
03-16-2014, 10:11 AM
The assertion that women really believe all that is an insult to the average woman, it's implying that they're stupid.

Codename Section
03-16-2014, 10:12 AM
The assertion that women really believe all that is an insult to the average woman, it's implying that they're stupid.

Feminists think most women are stupid.
Progressives think most minorities are stupid.

And yet, they seem to prove them right when voting for people that aint got nothing but contempt for their intellect.

kilgram
03-16-2014, 12:47 PM
Feminists think most women are stupid.
Progressives think most minorities are stupid.

And yet, they seem to prove them right when voting for people that aint got nothing but contempt for their intellect.
Seriously?

I am feminist and I don't think women are stupid.

I am progressive and I don't think minorities are stupid.

Max Rockatansky
03-16-2014, 12:51 PM
The proponents of pornography invariably contend that its detractors (like yours truly) are sex-negative "prudes". In that connection, I have to thank the person who conducted the investigation wh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)ose results are revealed here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular) for having the audacity to point out that the sex one observes in porn is very different from that in real life -- and how narrow-minded and elitist the world or pornography really is! At the link, you will find list of delusions that women get from digesting this material. One will observe a certain trend: that these misconceptions pornography promotes are thematically elitist, strongly favor the interests of men, and severely limit one's perception of what sex is, who can have it, and the enjoyment of it (particularly for women). Why? Because the sex industry makes its money by creating cultural ideals about how sex is supposed to be: ideals that pressure their consumers into conformity therewith -- assuming conformity is even possible for you. Without these expectations, women's sex lives -- indeed their lives in general -- could be very different: a lot loss demeaning and a lot more satisfying.

You didn't know that the people in movies, porn or not, doesn't depict real life? OMG!

Ravens Fan
03-16-2014, 01:15 PM
What about amateur porn? That is usually average, everyday people with a web cam or a phone. There is no industry involved, no misconceptions, no different than real life.

Chris
03-16-2014, 01:19 PM
The study, love, the study.


Study? The OP links to an article with two sources. The first is based on "some of our stats come from self-proclaimed “idea detective” Jon Millward, who crunched numbers from the Internet Adult Film Database...." The second is "Redditor black_brotha decided to ask women on the site what they "learned" from porn that turned out to be completely untrue in the real world." The first source does mention a study about to come out soon though.

Peter1469
03-16-2014, 01:56 PM
A lot of the policies advanced under those isms are premised on the victim group being unable to think for themselves.



Seriously?

I am feminist and I don't think women are stupid.

I am progressive and I don't think minorities are stupid.

The Xl
03-16-2014, 02:00 PM
You didn't know that the people in movies, porn or not, doesn't depict real life? OMG!

For real. I mean, come on now.

Germanicus
03-16-2014, 02:01 PM
The proponents of pornography invariably contend that its detractors (like yours truly) are sex-negative "prudes". In that connection, I have to thank the person who conducted the investigation wh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)ose results are revealed here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular) for having the audacity to point out that the sex one observes in porn is very different from that in real life -- and how narrow-minded and elitist the world or pornography really is! At the link, you will find list of delusions that women get from digesting this material. One will observe a certain trend: that these misconceptions pornography promotes are thematically elitist, strongly favor the interests of men, and severely limit one's perception of what sex is, who can have it, and the enjoyment of it (particularly for women). Why? Because the sex industry makes its money by creating cultural ideals about how sex is supposed to be: ideals that pressure their consumers into conformity therewith -- assuming conformity is even possible for you. Without these expectations, women's sex lives -- indeed their lives in general -- could be very different: a lot loss demeaning and a lot more satisfying.

It is banned in China. And the Japanese block out the genitals. ( like blur them like a criminals face ) I know from watching so much porn. (:


3. That "sexy" is purely physical, and incredibly specific:
I felt like I had to fit into a box I could never fit in. It made me feel dysphoric about not just my body, but who I was. I'm a clumsy, boyish, awkward female, that couldn't do an attractive striptease to save their life AKA the antithesis of your typical "sexy female" (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/202qdj/we_often_ask_men_but_did_any_of_you_ladies_have/cfzdmmn)... There is more than just one kind of sexy and its all subjective. I've realized that Im sexy in my own way and I'm much happier now.

I agree with that. I think that the psychology of sex is interesting. And agree that there is no typical hot girl. Some girls are much hotter than they look(:because they have a hot mind or aura. Some 'attractive' girls have an ugliness to them.


10. That men are always ready and willing: "I thought that all men liked being aggressive and dominant (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/202qdj/we_often_ask_men_but_did_any_of_you_ladies_have/cfzli1d), like in porn, and that if they were under 50, they were always going to be able to get hard and orgasm."

Thankyou. Im getting older but the last girl that a dated regularly seemed to care way too much about sex. She made me feel like a girl. (:

I think I will no comment on some of the other points.

Interesting survey.

Max Rockatansky
03-16-2014, 02:09 PM
For real. I mean, come on now.

I'm sure those are the same people who watch an action movie and then try to duplicate a stunt like jumping from building to building or car to car.

GrassrootsConservative
03-16-2014, 02:10 PM
Feminists think most women are stupid.
Progressives think most minorities are stupid.

How come when I say this I get attacked?

It's the truth so thanks for saying this, though, man.

The Xl
03-16-2014, 02:12 PM
This crusade against the sex industry is futile and pointless, really. The only thing that should be combated is minors that are forced to be prostitutes and things of the sort. Nothing more.

Dr. Who
03-16-2014, 06:06 PM
When adults view porn it is one thing, but when teens are viewing porn it is quite another. The porn industry is primarily focused on male sexual fantasy, so young males are being fed sexual fantasy and believe this to be reality. Young females viewing the same believe that they must comply with what they see or they are abnormal. So instead of the usual fumbling around and sexual learning experience that young dating couples used to experience, they now have a myriad of standards to live up to. I'm sure it can be off-putting and unsatisfactory for both participants.

The Xl
03-16-2014, 06:48 PM
When adults view porn it is one thing, but when teens are viewing porn it is quite another. The porn industry is primarily focused on male sexual fantasy, so young males are being fed sexual fantasy and believe this to be reality. Young females viewing the same believe that they must comply with what they see or they are abnormal. So instead of the usual fumbling around and sexual learning experience that young dating couples used to experience, they now have a myriad of standards to live up to. I'm sure it can be off-putting and unsatisfactory for both participants.

I don't believe this is necessarily the case. I mean, are there a few morons who believe it to be? Sure. But it isn't the norm, and even the dumbass in question will be set straight once the other partner tells them the score.

Dr. Who
03-16-2014, 06:56 PM
I don't believe this is necessarily the case. I mean, are there a few morons who believe it to be? Sure. But it isn't the norm, and even the dumbass in question will be set straight once the other partner tells them the score.

That might be true of some, but many kids start seeing porn when they are 11 or 12 and too young to make value judgments. Even if they don't quite believe everything they see, it is talked about and becomes an absurd goal.

donttread
03-16-2014, 07:09 PM
When adults view porn it is one thing, but when teens are viewing porn it is quite another. The porn industry is primarily focused on male sexual fantasy, so young males are being fed sexual fantasy and believe this to be reality. Young females viewing the same believe that they must comply with what they see or they are abnormal. So instead of the usual fumbling around and sexual learning experience that young dating couples used to experience, they now have a myriad of standards to live up to. I'm sure it can be off-putting and unsatisfactory for both participants.

I read porn as a teen, we'd sort through friend's fathers mags and film. It never heard me. Even as a teen I didn't buy "penthouse form stories" .

Dr. Who
03-16-2014, 07:27 PM
I read porn as a teen, we'd sort through friend's fathers mags and film. It never heard me. Even as a teen I didn't buy "penthouse form stories" .

Text is a bit different than the visual porn which kids access on the internet. Not all kids are cynical. Some believe what they see.

The Xl
03-16-2014, 11:00 PM
That might be true of some, but many kids start seeing porn when they are 11 or 12 and too young to make value judgments. Even if they don't quite believe everything they see, it is talked about and becomes an absurd goal.

Perhaps in that moment, but the majority aren't losing their virginity at 11, thankfully. They have time to shake that ridiculous viewpoint over the next few years.

Peter1469
03-17-2014, 03:52 AM
I think this is a very good response to the OP.


When adults view porn it is one thing, but when teens are viewing porn it is quite another. The porn industry is primarily focused on male sexual fantasy, so young males are being fed sexual fantasy and believe this to be reality. Young females viewing the same believe that they must comply with what they see or they are abnormal. So instead of the usual fumbling around and sexual learning experience that young dating couples used to experience, they now have a myriad of standards to live up to. I'm sure it can be off-putting and unsatisfactory for both participants.

Max Rockatansky
03-17-2014, 05:40 AM
When adults view porn it is one thing, but when teens are viewing porn it is quite another. The porn industry is primarily focused on male sexual fantasy, so young males are being fed sexual fantasy and believe this to be reality. Young females viewing the same believe that they must comply with what they see or they are abnormal. So instead of the usual fumbling around and sexual learning experience that young dating couples used to experience, they now have a myriad of standards to live up to. I'm sure it can be off-putting and unsatisfactory for both participants.

True, but at the same time isn't that a normal progression? Kids are told they can grow up to be astronauts or Presidents, but by the time they graduate college they realize that isn't quite true.

Movies are fantasies regardless if they are considered pornography or not. Girls, equally, are given fantastical ideas of romance and love affairs that are rarely grounded in reality.

The kids mentioned in your post will, indeed, be disappointed, but they'll also learn what is real and what is not. It doesn't matter if it is porn or a romantic comedy.

IMPress Polly
03-17-2014, 06:19 AM
Whoa, a bunch of right wing male libertarians disagree with me. I totally did NOT see that coming! :wink:

Allow me to offer replies to selected comments.


donttread wrote:
I read porn as a teen, we'd sort through friend's fathers mags and film. It never heard me. Even as a teen I didn't buy "penthouse form stories" .

LOL!!!!!

I believe THAT right there sums up how old and disconnected from modern realities my critics are. Guys aren't getting their first exposure to porn by way of discovering their dad's secret Playboy magazine stash anymore, people. Kids today (and it's now kids, not just boys) typically get their first exposure many years earlier than the prevailing age in those olden days (the median age is now 11, as in before they enter middle school), by accident, online, and the material they're consuming is far less conservative than the simple old Playboy-esque stills of nude women posing alone on various pieces of furniture or having relatively conservative and respectful sex on videotape. The olden days are gone. Straight-up rape porn for elementary schoolers is in.

And let me sum this up for you as well because I'm a high school teacher. I see and hear what you don't from your kids. By the time kids today get into high school at age 14, the percentage who access pornography (and again, we're not exactly talking stills of nude women by themselves) is 100%. The percentage who have received proper sex education is much lower. Pornography is now the first exposure the typical American kid gets to the topic of sexuality and, as such, tends to define it in their minds.

It's time to update your understanding of the subject for the second decade of the 21st century.


The Xl wrote:
Perhaps in that moment, but the majority aren't losing their virginity at 11, thankfully. They have time to shake that ridiculous viewpoint over the next few years.

Actually the point of the OP was that porn effectively discourages sex, not that kids are having sex too early these days! The overlap between the ascendancy of Internet pornography on the one hand and of the marked drop-off in the rate of actual sex happening, particularly among the younger generations, is no coincidence! Pornography is increasingly used not as supplement to one's sex life, but as an alternative to having one. The OP simply provides some of the reasons. And yes people (particularly younger people) really DO often believe a lot of this stuff. It's not a matter of being "stupid", it's a matter of what you're exposed to (and not) and what it teaches you (and not).

Do you remember that documentary on the contrast in the sex lives of East Germans and West Germans during the Cold War that I posted elsewhere some time ago? Well if not, here's a refresher course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl_r7rIcds8

Anyway, I'd just like to highlight that my points from the OP and the link therein help to explain one aspect of what you learn in that documentary: why not having a sex industry yielded more actual sex, and more enjoyable sex, for the East Germans in contrast to the West Germans who developed a lively and thriving sex industry. (All you have to do is think about it for a moment: the sex industry is basically women sexually servicing men. You can thereby see the obvious reasons why communists, as egalitarians, would be opposed to it, given that these are the gender roles that it prescribes. But not having one also had the effect of avoiding the larger ideals of the industry; the demands for bodily perfection and so forth.)

Other policies helped the East Germans "win out" sexually as well, not least of which being the communist government's eventual decision to focus on teaching men how to please women. Our society does the exact opposite of that. Just take a trip to your local supermarket and check out the magazine rack if you don't believe me. The magazines for women typically provide advice on how to please men: how to look appealing, what sex moves men prefer, etc. etc. Good luck finding the reverse for men! The significance there is that, statistically speaking, in every society it's women who, overall, report being less sexually satisfied. Perhaps that's because we collectively don't care whether women enjoy sex! We don't care whether women ever have orgasms or not, etc.! It's one-sidedly about male pleasure and servicing men. (And yes, the sex industry definitely reinforces that message.) Anyway, they did the opposite in East Germany, focusing on teaching the group happier with their sex lives (men) how to please the less satisfied group (women), thus, if you will, redistributing enjoyment down the social ladder along more equitable lines. More egalitarian societies think like that. They concern themselves primarily with aiding the, if you will, disadvantaged, not the better-off group.

Just pointing out some of the differences in mentality here and why they made people (women in particular) happier with their sex lives than the Western model (which we obviously continue to follow and accentuate).


Ravens Fan wrote:
What about amateur porn? That is usually average, everyday people with a web cam or a phone. There is no industry involved, no misconceptions, no different than real life.

I think we all kinda know that a whole lot of "amateur" porn is hardly amateur in truth. That in the first place. But in any event, to whatever extent it is authentic, I'm not really too concerned about that save for the extent to which everyone's attitudes toward sex, including those of the regular people who may do this, are shaped by the industry. The industry is really the essential problem and almost all pornography stems from the industry. It's for that reason that I have a tendency to generalize when talking about pornography.

Basically, I think sex is meant to be a private matter (save for, importantly, a proper education on the subject!). I think it's better when people don't spend their days mentally examining, judging, and critiquing the sex lives of others and comparing their own experiences to those of others, but rather are able to define enjoyment for themselves, on their own terms. That's my personal opinion.

kilgram
03-17-2014, 06:35 AM
That might be true of some, but many kids start seeing porn when they are 11 or 12 and too young to make value judgments. Even if they don't quite believe everything they see, it is talked about and becomes an absurd goal.
First time I watched porn I was 12-13, more sure 12. And I knew that was not real, that was a movie. A fiction about sex.

However, I have to say that today with the quantity of amateur videos on Internet, you can find a bit more "natural porn or realistic".

And about porn there is one thing that is good. It reduces sexual criminality.

IMPress Polly
03-17-2014, 06:40 AM
kilgram wrote:
And about porn there is one thing that is good. It reduces sexual criminality.

What evidence do you see of that? Do you have any statistics to back up that claim? I mean for example there's a considerable body of evidence suggesting that the more pornography one consumes, the more willing they are to commit an act of rape.

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 06:41 AM
I saw porn online for the first time as a young lad and I realised right then that it was acting but it was still involving naked women and that was certainly awrite in my book.

Captain Obvious
03-17-2014, 07:09 AM
No doubt the porn industry targets men primarily but there's a niche in porn for just about everyone, so it's not really fair to say it's absolutely male driven. There's plenty of softer, classier stuff ideal for women also.

Me and the old lady when we were younger used to watch porn and screw each others brains out. Hell, I took her to a porn drive in once - she was 18 and I was 16, she gets carded and I don't. Ran into her uncle who was working the soda counter, he says "you better not be here with my niece". Funny story...

Anyway, this past year we got back into watching porn - it's pretty easy to get nowadays. Used to be you had to go to the "back room" at the local video rental place and hope nobody you knew saw you coming out. Had that happen a couple times then got into the habit of renting them from the store across town.

Funny thing though, back to the OP. Porn style - I prefer the classier stuff, the slow, romantic porn I guess. My wife who's kind of shy and reserved is into the rough stuff. DP, bondage, bukkaki. Really, it's like role reversal.

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 07:27 AM
What evidence do you see of that? Do you have any statistics to back up that claim? I mean for example there's a considerable body of evidence suggesting that the more pornography one consumes, the more willing they are to commit an act of rape.

There are studies which say that most women have rape fantasies, as well. Is that true?

Studies are as easy to procure as finding someone willing to support ideological funding.

IMPress Polly
03-17-2014, 07:49 AM
Captain Obvious wrote:
No doubt the porn industry targets men primarily but there's a niche in porn for just about everyone, so it's not really fair to say it's absolutely male driven. There's plenty of softer, classier stuff ideal for women also.

That's kind of a dated stereotype: that men prefer hard sex and women soft sex. According to an interesting survey of OkCupid subscribers anyway (however scientific you consider that), that seems to have been more of a generational thing. The younger the subscriber, the less likely they are to report having a stylistic preference, and today's teens (be they male or female mind you) don't seem to have a preference at all, at least in an overall sense. (Only about 20% of teens and people in their early 20s today report having a stylistic preference and there's no gender divide in terms of who prefers which style.) I have a preference for hard sex personally myself. I'm not trying to make a style judgment here. What I'm suggesting, at least in part, is that sexual enjoyment should be a reciprocal thing: that it matters whether women have orgasms and enjoy the overall experience. And 51% of the population shouldn't be treated as a "niche market" in any event!

Captain Obvious
03-17-2014, 07:54 AM
That's kind of a dated stereotype: that men prefer hard sex and women soft sex. According to an interesting survey of OkCupid subscribers anyway (however scientific you consider that), that seems to have been more of a generational thing. The younger the subscriber, the less likely they are to report having a stylistic preference, and today's teens (be they male or female mind you) don't seem to have a preference at all, at least in an overall sense. (Only about 20% of teens and people in their early 20s today report having a stylistic preference and there's no gender divide in terms of who prefers which style.) I have a preference for hard sex personally myself. I'm not trying to make a style judgment here. What I'm suggesting, at least in part, is that sexual enjoyment should be a reciprocal thing: that it matters whether women have orgasms and enjoy the overall experience. And 51% of the population shouldn't be treated as a "niche market" in any event!

Are you saying that women in porns don't come?

:laugh:

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. It's pretty important to me that my wife O's when we have sex and she rarely doesn't. I rarely don't sometimes either but that's not the point. Are you saying that men and women don't put a priority on the other orgasming? Or just in porn? In porn the woman can fake it, dudes can't. Plus, I'm not sure you're acknowledging the male sex drive. Dudes will fuck anything basically, for the most part. Women in porn, most of them I believe are just in it for the money. That shouldn't be a big revelation to anyone.

Chris
03-17-2014, 08:07 AM
What evidence do you see of that? Do you have any statistics to back up that claim? I mean for example there's a considerable body of evidence suggesting that the more pornography one consumes, the more willing they are to commit an act of rape.


Considering the unscientific/nonstatistical sources of your OP, such demands of others seems odd.

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 08:09 AM
Women's equipment is different. They ought to take that up with Nature instead of turning us into the sexual equivalent of marathon runners. Good if we both orgasm but if we don't I shouldn't be berated for wanting to quit after a half hour.

Sheet burns on the knees and elbows get ugly.

Captain Obvious
03-17-2014, 08:16 AM
Women's equipment is different. They ought to take that up with Nature instead of turning us into the sexual equivalent of marathon runners. Good if we both orgasm but if we don't I shouldn't be berated for wanting to quit after a half hour.

Sheet burns on the knees and elbows get ugly.

You're doing it wrong maybe.

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 08:21 AM
You're doing it wrong maybe.

The things I do when I pretend I'm in love...

Captain Obvious
03-17-2014, 08:23 AM
Every carry around a six-pack?

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 08:27 AM
Every carry around a six-pack?

Just on the abdomen.

Paperback Writer
03-17-2014, 08:27 AM
By the by, I weren't bragging. I don't have a 6 pack like Codename from working out. I can't put weight on in spite of eating gobs. It's a rather thin and rangy 6 pack.

The Xl
03-17-2014, 09:46 AM
No doubt the porn industry targets men primarily but there's a niche in porn for just about everyone, so it's not really fair to say it's absolutely male driven. There's plenty of softer, classier stuff ideal for women also.

Me and the old lady when we were younger used to watch porn and screw each others brains out. Hell, I took her to a porn drive in once - she was 18 and I was 16, she gets carded and I don't. Ran into her uncle who was working the soda counter, he says "you better not be here with my niece". Funny story...

Anyway, this past year we got back into watching porn - it's pretty easy to get nowadays. Used to be you had to go to the "back room" at the local video rental place and hope nobody you knew saw you coming out. Had that happen a couple times then got into the habit of renting them from the store across town.

Funny thing though, back to the OP. Porn style - I prefer the classier stuff, the slow, romantic porn I guess. My wife who's kind of shy and reserved is into the rough stuff. DP, bondage, bukkaki. Really, it's like role reversal.

.........Dayum.

IMPress Polly
03-17-2014, 01:15 PM
Captain Obvious wrote:
Are you saying that women in porns don't come?

...Are you saying that men and women don't put a priority on the other orgasming?...

On the former: yes actually for the most part. In your typical porn layout or video, it's exclusively the male party or parties that achieves orgasm, who receives oral sex and service in general, etc.

On the latter: I'm saying that, overall, people place far more value on men enjoying the sexual experience (including the achievement of orgasm) than they do on female enjoyment. There are a lot of ways of showing this, but the orgasm is a particularly obvious one. It's not nearly as common for women to have orgasms during sexual intercourse. That is a fact. Maybe it's different between you and your partner, but I'm talking about the larger picture here.

The Xl
03-17-2014, 01:30 PM
Where is the self responsibility here? Girls who are easy, act like "sluts," do porn, etc, chose to do so, it's their choice, ergo, their problem. Yes, men, create the demand for it, and women voluntarily provide a shit-ton of supply. Most non slutty, respectable women realize what the score is in regards to this anyway.

Captain Obvious
03-17-2014, 01:36 PM
It could further be argued that women manipulate mens sex drives in exchange for attention, valuables, etc.

There are lots of things at work here.

The Sage of Main Street
03-17-2014, 03:35 PM
I read porn as a teen, we'd sort through friend's fathers mags and film. It never hurt me. Even as a teen I didn't buy "penthouse form stories" .

Coincidentally, just yesterday I thought of this as an example of the misuse of oxymoron replacing the educated phrase "contradiction in terms." It is someone's opinion that a perfectly normal phrase is a contradiction. If someone felt that pornography was attractive only to teenagers and that a grownup would only be interested in doing the actual sex act, he would say, "Adult movie is a contradiction in terms."

IMPress Polly
03-17-2014, 06:08 PM
Captain Obvious wrote:
It could further be argued that women manipulate mens sex drives in exchange for attention, valuables, etc.

Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.

The Xl
03-17-2014, 06:16 PM
Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.

Be that as it may, these men in question aren't forcing women to do anything. They willingly do so.

These excuses make no sense. Tell any respectable woman that they don't have a choice, they're inclined or even forced to sell their bodies for the sake of men, and they'll laugh in your face.

Gerrard Winstanley
03-17-2014, 06:16 PM
Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.
Nothing personal, but I see "patriarchy" as one of these ambiguous liberal buzzwords utilized to make feminism sound scientific. The modern West isn't inherently discriminatory against women.

Peter1469
03-17-2014, 06:22 PM
I see your point with the extreme porn versions like "rape sex,"plus many other types, and even the lesser stuff you mentioned in your OP.


Whoa, a bunch of right wing male libertarians disagree with me. I totally did NOT see that coming! :wink:

Allow me to offer replies to selected comments.



LOL!!!!!

I believe THAT right there sums up how old and disconnected from modern realities my critics are. Guys aren't getting their first exposure to porn by way of discovering their dad's secret Playboy magazine stash anymore, people. Kids today (and it's now kids, not just boys) typically get their first exposure many years earlier than the prevailing age in those olden days (the median age is now 11, as in before they enter middle school), by accident, online, and the material they're consuming is far less conservative than the simple old Playboy-esque stills of nude women posing alone on various pieces of furniture or having relatively conservative and respectful sex on videotape. The olden days are gone. Straight-up rape porn for elementary schoolers is in.

And let me sum this up for you as well because I'm a high school teacher. I see and hear what you don't from your kids. By the time kids today get into high school at age 14, the percentage who access pornography (and again, we're not exactly talking stills of nude women by themselves) is 100%. The percentage who have received proper sex education is much lower. Pornography is now the first exposure the typical American kid gets to the topic of sexuality and, as such, tends to define it in their minds.

It's time to update your understanding of the subject for the second decade of the 21st century.



Actually the point of the OP was that porn effectively discourages sex, not that kids are having sex too early these days! The overlap between the ascendancy of Internet pornography on the one hand and of the marked drop-off in the rate of actual sex happening, particularly among the younger generations, is no coincidence! Pornography is increasingly used not as supplement to one's sex life, but as an alternative to having one. The OP simply provides some of the reasons. And yes people (particularly younger people) really DO often believe a lot of this stuff. It's not a matter of being "stupid", it's a matter of what you're exposed to (and not) and what it teaches you (and not).

Do you remember that documentary on the contrast in the sex lives of East Germans and West Germans during the Cold War that I posted elsewhere some time ago? Well if not, here's a refresher course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl_r7rIcds8

Anyway, I'd just like to highlight that my points from the OP and the link therein help to explain one aspect of what you learn in that documentary: why not having a sex industry yielded more actual sex, and more enjoyable sex, for the East Germans in contrast to the West Germans who developed a lively and thriving sex industry. (All you have to do is think about it for a moment: the sex industry is basically women sexually servicing men. You can thereby see the obvious reasons why communists, as egalitarians, would be opposed to it, given that these are the gender roles that it prescribes. But not having one also had the effect of avoiding the larger ideals of the industry; the demands for bodily perfection and so forth.)

Other policies helped the East Germans "win out" sexually as well, not least of which being the communist government's eventual decision to focus on teaching men how to please women. Our society does the exact opposite of that. Just take a trip to your local supermarket and check out the magazine rack if you don't believe me. The magazines for women typically provide advice on how to please men: how to look appealing, what sex moves men prefer, etc. etc. Good luck finding the reverse for men! The significance there is that, statistically speaking, in every society it's women who, overall, report being less sexually satisfied. Perhaps that's because we collectively don't care whether women enjoy sex! We don't care whether women ever have orgasms or not, etc.! It's one-sidedly about male pleasure and servicing men. (And yes, the sex industry definitely reinforces that message.) Anyway, they did the opposite in East Germany, focusing on teaching the group happier with their sex lives (men) how to please the less satisfied group (women), thus, if you will, redistributing enjoyment down the social ladder along more equitable lines. More egalitarian societies think like that. They concern themselves primarily with aiding the, if you will, disadvantaged, not the better-off group.

Just pointing out some of the differences in mentality here and why they made people (women in particular) happier with their sex lives than the Western model (which we obviously continue to follow and accentuate).



I think we all kinda know that a whole lot of "amateur" porn is hardly amateur in truth. That in the first place. But in any event, to whatever extent it is authentic, I'm not really too concerned about that save for the extent to which everyone's attitudes toward sex, including those of the regular people who may do this, are shaped by the industry. The industry is really the essential problem and almost all pornography stems from the industry. It's for that reason that I have a tendency to generalize when talking about pornography.

Basically, I think sex is meant to be a private matter (save for, importantly, a proper education on the subject!). I think it's better when people don't spend their days mentally examining, judging, and critiquing the sex lives of others and comparing their own experiences to those of others, but rather are able to define enjoyment for themselves, on their own terms. That's my personal opinion.

Peter1469
03-17-2014, 06:32 PM
Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.

Only because women are too catty and can't get along with each other long enough to exert their natural powers to get men to do what they wish- in a general sense in society.

Dr. Who
03-17-2014, 07:42 PM
Only because women are too catty and can't get along with each other long enough to exert their natural powers to get men to do what they wish- in a general sense in society.

It may not be obvious to men that they dominate some aspects of the sexual world because women have an apparent right of refusal, but society teaches women in very subtle ways that they are unworthy unless they have a man. At one time men were bachelors and women spinsters, the latter being a pejorative. Even now single woman has some pejorative connotations. Young females are more attuned to social structure and dynamics and while they are quite capable of rejecting males whom they deem unsuitable, where suitable males are concerned they are generally more likely than not, to try to please the male. Notably when the unsuitable males are removed from the equation, there is stiff competition among the females for the worthy. Given that females tend to outnumber males, the male has the upper hand. This dynamic changes as women age, but that doesn't change the dynamic among the young.

GrassrootsConservative
03-17-2014, 07:46 PM
Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.

Maybe women should stop acting like such helpless victims all the time.

You are all making the same mistakes blacks are making.

/Edit: The world is only as you perceive it to be. The ONLY problem here is your own perception.

Max Rockatansky
03-17-2014, 07:54 PM
Maybe women should stop acting like such helpless victims all the time.

You are all making the same mistakes blacks are making.

/Edit: The world is only as you perceive it to be. The ONLY problem here is your own perception.The blacks? Did they take a vote?

GrassrootsConservative
03-17-2014, 08:09 PM
The blacks? Did they take a vote?

Please. Don't tell me you've somehow missed their whole "white man holding us down" reverse-racist mentality.

Germanicus
03-18-2014, 06:13 PM
On the former: yes actually for the most part. In your typical porn layout or video, it's exclusively the male party or parties that achieves orgasm, who receives oral sex and service in general, etc.

On the latter: I'm saying that, overall, people place far more value on men enjoying the sexual experience (including the achievement of orgasm) than they do on female enjoyment. There are a lot of ways of showing this, but the orgasm is a particularly obvious one. It's not nearly as common for women to have orgasms during sexual intercourse. That is a fact. Maybe it's different between you and your partner, but I'm talking about the larger picture here.

Hey, maybe you are not watching the correct porn. Try Men in Pain, and Divine Bitches..

((:

I have a feeling that you may enjoy. And maybe these sites will inspire you.

I like stuff with dominant females. In my opinion porn is not about men getting pleasure and leaving women out at all.

It sounds like you are watching too much porn that has been produced for boring men. (:

Germanicus
03-18-2014, 06:30 PM
Is it actually -truth - that is making people not want to have sex? What is an unrealistic expectation? Really. Like for a girl like you for example? What would be unrealistic? You cant get what you want? Seriously?

So the problem seems to be that people cannot accept truth so if they watch porn and develop 'unrealistic' expectations then they will be all sad with their partner?

I agree there is something to this communists having better sex but I will tell you why communist chicks get so wet. It is because they are repressed. It is the same with a girl with strict parents growing up that flips out and gets all crazy. They burn inside for what they couldnt have. And this makes any little thing exciting. Which is actually kinda sad when you think about it.

If you have access and freedom to truth. Then the sky should be the limit for your expectation right?

I am into Humiliation Porn. I dont know of any that seems to be made for women. Really. But is that stuff messed up to women? Or men? Im not sure.

There is a lot of different kinds of porn.

What would help is if people could separate sex and love. Separate sex and friendship. People need to be secure and people need to stop being petty. If you love a person they may not be able to satisfy your every desire. That should be fine because someone else can. Right? (: Like maybe you find some really nice porn star that you fall in love with. but there just isnt enough porn stars to go around is what it seems to me. And dont people like variety? I sure do. No matter how much I loved a person it would not stop me wanting to have sex with other people. And why should it? And same for my partner right? monogamy is kind of petty. And like ownership.

In my opinion the sky should be the limit for expectation. Especially if you can fly. Others may need a jet pack or something. Right? Other may enjoy to stroll. Some may enjoy an air show.

I wonder what you find to be unrealistic.. (:

In my opinion there is porn with cross-appeal. And porn made for females. I agree way more directed at men but most Vampire novels and pretty much all female culture is soft porn nowdays. And there is a desire for more. Look at the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey for example.

I think people need to be secure and people should know truth. Honesty is what makes good sex in my opinion. And exploration.

I like some really fucked up stuff. I dont know why. I just do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRyMcH6WMM

edit- I am trying to think what you believe to be unrealistic. Nothing has occurred to me. (:

edit- think about it. The Chinese are very repressed in many ways. I will admit it. No porn even. At all. And the entire structure of society is somewhat repressive. So. Chinese girls get soo wet about any little thing. Which might be kinda cool I guess. But. Chinese Chicks are bound to have lower expectations. It would be like this. Imagine if a person started smoking pot but only kiff/leaf. And sure they get stoned. Maybe they feel smashed. But then, they try some really nice heads. Can they go back to kiff/leaf and enjoy it? And imagine if they were never really aware of the heads before when they were smoking kiff/leaf. ( who would smoke that? Surely only a kid )

So. Once you go heads you can never go back? (: But here is the thing. There are other drugs. lots of them. I know that. (: And with sex there is soo much to it. Maybe you deal rush. Maybe you have pills. You know?

All this once you go black stuff is very limited thinking. Really. ((: And you dont have to go black. ((: ( like plenty of white guys are packing. Its a racist saying ) But why not? I think variety is very important. And combinations. Cocktails.

And why cant women just say that average cock isnt all that exciting? Girls like small cock? Cmon. For what? So who are we protecting? Women? Or men? Can men deal with this information considering the size of the bulk of the worlds populations penes are really not that exciting? I think it is a conspiracy all this talk of so-called 'unrealistic' expectations. To protect the minds of men. Not women.

edit- Size matters right? People must accept it. It is 2014. But, sex is more than that. So the minds of men can handle it. Cant they? And did you see a new Godzilla movie is coming out?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md7k5xH7HbI

edit- Mostly I wonder what you consider to be unrealistic. Nothing occurs to me.

Germanicus
03-18-2014, 08:00 PM
Have you ever seen the film Straw Dogs? What did you think?

That Alexander Skarsgard is a good looking guy. Like if I was a female I am sure I would want to fuck that guy. ( Or for him to fuck me.. (: ) You know. So how about Straw Dogs? Seen it? Anyone? Did it hurt your brain? because you know she was kissing him back. And stuff..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2WepwFcWE


The clips on youtube. Look for yourself. And this was no accident. It is clear and undeniable.

And how about a Gladiator? Women would pay a heap to have sex with a Gladiator. And if they could not afford it they would buy a bottle of their sweat. So they could pretend their partner was a gladiator. (: Roman women were much more honest about their desires and Roman society much more honest than ours. Why wouldnt a chick want to be fucked by a Gladiator? See, station was different to wealth back then. Under capitalism things are different and dishonest.

And did Roman men get all sore about the fact that their women wanted to have sex with Gladiators? Probably a little. But it was just fact. Roman chicks were cool. And honest. The truth is hot to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz76EY3hTzI

Peter1469
03-18-2014, 08:17 PM
:shocked:

Heyduke
03-18-2014, 08:26 PM
"The truth is hot" - Germanicus

Haven't seen Straw Dogs. Gladiator is in my top 50

Bob
03-18-2014, 10:29 PM
The proponents of pornography invariably contend that its detractors (like yours truly) are sex-negative "prudes". In that connection, I have to thank the person who conducted the investigation wh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)ose results are revealed here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/porn-women-myths_n_4944061.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular) for having the audacity to point out that the sex one observes in porn is very different from that in real life -- and how narrow-minded and elitist the world or pornography really is! At the link, you will find list of delusions that women get from digesting this material. One will observe a certain trend: that these misconceptions pornography promotes are thematically elitist, strongly favor the interests of men, and severely limit one's perception of what sex is, who can have it, and the enjoyment of it (particularly for women). Why? Because the sex industry makes its money by creating cultural ideals about how sex is supposed to be: ideals that pressure their consumers into conformity therewith -- assuming conformity is even possible for you. Without these expectations, women's sex lives -- indeed their lives in general -- could be very different: a lot loss demeaning and a lot more satisfying.

Since when are films supposed to be real life?

Ever watch the Hobbit?

Bob
03-18-2014, 10:47 PM
On the former: yes actually for the most part. In your typical porn layout or video, it's exclusively the male party or parties that achieves orgasm, who receives oral sex and service in general, etc.

On the latter: I'm saying that, overall, people place far more value on men enjoying the sexual experience (including the achievement of orgasm) than they do on female enjoyment. There are a lot of ways of showing this, but the orgasm is a particularly obvious one. It's not nearly as common for women to have orgasms during sexual intercourse. That is a fact. Maybe it's different between you and your partner, but I'm talking about the larger picture here.

Not where I cum from. Oh hell no. The woman is numero uno.

Codename Section
03-19-2014, 07:05 AM
Not in a patriarchal context it can't be. This isn't the Garden of Eden. Men run the world.

Not the western world. Political analysts would tell you the #1 voting demographic is women, particularly suburban soccer mom types.

Max Rockatansky
03-19-2014, 08:53 AM
Not the western world. Political analysts would tell you the #1 voting demographic is women, particularly suburban soccer mom types.

Agreed. Men only think they run the world and women are happy to let them believe that fantasy since they know the truth.