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Germanicus
03-29-2014, 06:49 AM
One of the most interesting things about WW2 in my opinion is the fact that the Irish would not fight for England.

The Irish were neutral. People seem surprised when you tell them this fact. I was surprised when I found out. It is interesting that many people in Ireland admired the Germans or 'nazi'. The IRA were big fans of the Nazi.

Instead of fighting for England, Ireland declared a State of Emergency and pretty much brought in Martial Law. The majority of the Irish public supported the actions of their Government.


The Emergency (Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language): Ré na Práinne / An Éigeandáil) was an official euphemism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism) used by the Irish Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Government) during the 1940s to refer to its position during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). The state was neutral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_country) during World War II, but declared a state of emergency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency) on 2 September 1939,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-1) and enacted the Emergency Powers Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Powers_Act_1939) the following day.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-2) This gave sweeping new powers to the government for the duration of the Emergency, such as internment, censorship of the press and correspondence, and the government control of the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)

Most people seem to have an infantile understanding of WW2 and no idea at all about the politics of the time. Fascism was a huge international movement and the Germans had supporters in every nation including like minded political parties. The pro-German feeling of Ireland may have been stronger than most places but the idea of Fascism in various forms was competing with Communism, Capitalism and Socialism. The neutrality of Ireland is an unmistakable indicator of the fact that Germany was not hated by the entire world and actually had a great deal of International Supporters.

Most people seem to believe that all of a sudden the most evil man in history popped up out of nowhere, made everyone hate Jewish people and then had to be killed because he tried to kill all Jewish people as well as tried to take over the entire world. And then USA alone saved us from him so hail USA for all time.. (: ( And also hail capitalism for all time ) It wasnt really like that at all.


On the other hand, in the first few years of the war, the government did not show any overt preference for either side. This is partly because de Valera had to keep national unity, which meant accommodating the large swathe of Irish society that rejected anything to do with the British, some of whom admired Germany to some extent. These attitudes were shared by Aiken,[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-10) and Walshe,.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-11) The Fianna Fáil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fianna_Fáil) government, headed by Éamon De Valera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éamon_De_Valera) ruled alone and did not accommodate any other party in decision-making.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-12) Within both the British and Irish political sphere, there were pro-fascist political parties at the outbreak of the war, the centre-right Fine Gael (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Gael) party in Ireland, and the more extreme British union of fascists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_union_of_fascists) in Britain, with the latter party being completely outlawed in 1940.

Wiki is capitalist propaganda. Imagine if the Germans had won how different that would read.
"some of whom admired Germany to some extent."- wiki

((: To some extent indeed. Some indeed. Wiki is capitalist trash you know.

So, yeah. The IRA were huge fans of the 'Nazi'.


The IRA fostered links with German intelligence (the Abwehr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abwehr)) and Foreign Ministry, with men such as Francis Stuart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Stuart) travelling to Germany to talk, though these attempts were largely ineffectual due to a combination of Abwehr and Foreign Ministry incompetence and IRA weakness.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-15) Germans also came to Ireland, the most notable of whom was Hermann Görtz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Görtz), who was captured in possession of "Plan Kathleen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Kathleen)"- an IRA plan that detailed a German supported invasion of Northern Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland). (See also: Irish Republican Army – Abwehr collaboration in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_Wo rld_War_II)).


Relations with Germany

In pursuit of its policy of neutrality, the Irish Government refused to close the German and Japanese embassies. In 1939, the German Government had very little intelligence on Ireland and Britain. This is because Hitler had hoped for a détente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Détente) or alliance with Britain, whom he considered the "natural allies" of Nazi Germany.[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-51)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)

What? Hitler considered the British to be neutral allies of 'Nazi' Germany?

Germanicus
03-29-2014, 06:49 AM
When concerted efforts to build a reliable picture of British military strength did begin around 1939–1940, efforts were first made to infiltrate spies to Britain via Ireland, but these attempts consistently failed (See Operation Lobster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lobster) and Operation Seagull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Seagull_(Ireland))). The Abwehr also made attempts to foster intelligence gathering links with the IRA, but found that the IRA was in no condition to be of serious use — these attempts were to occur during the period 1939–1943. The German military also drew up plans detailing how an invasion of Ireland might take place. These plans were titled Plan Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Green_(Ireland)) and any invasion was to act as a diversionary attack in support of a main attack to conquer Britain titled Operation Sea Lion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion). Both of these plans were shelved by 1942. When U.S. Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) troops began to be stationed in Northern Ireland in 1942, Plan Green was reprinted because there was a fear amongst the German High Command, (and the Irish Government), that the U.S. Army might attempt an invasion of Ireland, following its occupation of Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Iceland) (after the British invasion) and Greenland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland_during_World_War_II) in 1941. These fears led to another German intelligence plan – Operation Osprey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osprey) – but it was abandoned when the feared American invasion failed to take place.



On the occasion of the death of Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler), de Valera paid a controversial visit to Hempel to express sympathy with the German people over the death of the Führer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Führer).[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-52) This action has been defended as proper given the state's neutrality. Sir John Maffey, the British Representative, commented that de Valera's actions were "unwise but mathematically consistent".[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-53) Douglas Hyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hyde), Ireland's president, also sent condolences,[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-54) an action which enraged the United States minister as no similar action had taken place on the death of the United States President, Franklin D. Roosevelt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt).[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-55)[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-56)

The Irish liked Hitler more than Franklin Roosevelt? What?


Attitudes to the Holocaust

See also: History of the Jews in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland)
Elements of Irish public opinion were slow to accept the nature of the Nazi regime. A "Limerick Leader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Leader)" editorial in 1945 noted that, "The campaign against war criminals is strangely confined to those who happen to fight on the wrong side." However it continued to say that


Allied atrocities cannot excuse the monstrous barbarism of the Reich

Im not sure if it is my honest Irish blood speaking but I have felt the same way. The so-called 'Greatest Generation' were guilty of unspeakable atrocities. The US Governmet guilty of unthinkable crimes against humanity. Yet the allies excuse themselves of all and hold War Trials for Germans? And the Russian ones seemed to be much less biased.

I do not agree with War Trials. At all.

Australians were treated shockingly and worked/starved to death in places like Changi but I would be horrified to see some 90 year old Japanese/Korean man arrested because he was a guard at one of the POW Camps. I am horrified each time our capitalist new trumpets that they have captured the newest senile 90 year old German that worked as a guard at a Concentration Camp.


According to some sources, it appears that there was official indifference from the political establishment to the Jewish victims of the holocaust during and after the war. This was despite de Valera having knowledge of the crimes committed against Jewish victims of the Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) as early as 1943.[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-59) Other sources report that de Valera was so aware in 1942 and the government sought to secure the release of Jews from then.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-60) After the war had ended, Jewish groups had difficulty in getting refugee status for Jewish children – whilst at the same time, a plan to bring over four hundred Catholic children from the Rhineland encountered no difficulties.[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-61) The Department of Justice explained in 1948 that:
It has always been the policy of the Minister for Justice to restrict the admission of Jewish aliens, for the reason that any substantial increase in our Jewish population might give rise to an anti-Semitic problem

People also seem to believe that anti-Semitism was only a problem in Germany. This is not true at all. Looking at old newspapers from Australia you can see that Australia was an openly anti-Semitic place. What we consider to be 'anti-semitic' today is rather precious to what would have been considered anti-semitic back then. And anti-Jewish feelings were common in many places, not just Germany.

Anyway, dont you think the Irish Neutrality in WW2 is interesting?

And how about how the Irish punished the deserters that left Ireland to fight for the Pommies?


Punishment of Irish Army deserters

Unlike other neutral states, Ireland did not introduce a general prohibition on its citizens opting for foreign enlistment during the war. However, one serious concern of government in this regard was the relatively high number of Irish soldiers deserting and leaving the jurisdiction.[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-66) Estimates of between 4,000 and 7,000 members of the Irish armed forces deserted to join the armed forces of belligerent nations, the majority serving in the British Army, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-canny-67)
On 17 May 1945, Minister for Defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Defence_(Ireland)) Oscar Traynor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Traynor) stated that he proposed introducing legislation which would deprive deserters of any right "for a long time to come" to employment paid for from public funds.[68] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-68) The legislation in question was the Emergency Powers (No. 362) order which was passed on 8 August 1945. This punished those who had deserted during the Emergency in four ways:


Deserters forfeited all pay and allowances for the period of their absence
They lost any rights to pensions they might have earned due to their years of service
They lost any entitlement to unemployment benefits normally available to former members of the Irish Army
For a period of seven years they could not qualify for any employment remunerated from public funds

The Order only applied to personnel who had been called to active duty during the Emergency or who had enlisted "for the duration" of the Emergency and affected 4,000 men.[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-ded19451018-69)
The government's reasons for passing the order have been given as follows:[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#cite_note-canny-67)


To ensure that those personnel who had faithfully served the country in the defence forces had first chance of obtaining jobs with state and local authorities following demobilization
To deter future desertion
To allow deserters to be dealt with in a cost-effective and expeditious way, rather than go the immense expense of court-martialling each man individually


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)


edit- Hey, if Russia and North Koea decide to roll into Alaska, will Canada back you guys up? Are you sure? Should USA be nicer to Canada?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ5QLXTUTRA

Doesnt the IRA have links to the US Republican Party?

Max Rockatansky
03-29-2014, 07:42 AM
The Irish weren't neutral. They tacitly, and in some cases explicitly, supported the Nazis:

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092138/Irish-minister-admits-time-Jews-fleeing-Nazis-denied-visas-1930s-morally-bankrupt-regime.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/irish-nationalist-nazi-when-eamon-de-valera-paid-his-respects-adolf-hitler-1403768

Mister D
03-29-2014, 08:12 AM
Ireland was neutral. The Irish had various opinions. Thousands Of Irish volunteered in Europe.

Green Arrow
03-29-2014, 08:50 AM
As Mister D said, suggesting all of Ireland was neutral is quite simplistic. As a nation, it was neutral, but get two Irishmen in a room and you'd have three opinions. Ten if the two Irishmen were drinking.

Peter1469
03-29-2014, 09:07 AM
As Mister D said, suggesting all of Ireland was neutral is quite simplistic. As a nation, it was neutral, but get two Irishmen in a room and you'd have three opinions. Ten if the two Irishmen were drinking.

Perfect. I went to see this play (http://www.theweirlondon.co.uk/)while in London. Totally on point.

Green Arrow
03-29-2014, 09:15 AM
Perfect. I went to see this play (http://www.theweirlondon.co.uk/)while in London. Totally on point.

I've wanted to see it, but I can barely afford a three day trip to Louisiana, let alone a trip to London :tongue:

Peter1469
03-29-2014, 09:22 AM
I've wanted to see it, but I can barely afford a three day trip to Louisiana, let alone a trip to London :tongue:

True. Hotels are pretty steep. I will let you know the next time I go, just bring a sleeping bag. :smiley:

Green Arrow
03-29-2014, 09:29 AM
True. Hotels are pretty steep. I will let you know the next time I go, just bring a sleeping bag. :smiley:

I could introduce you to a cousin of mine :tongue:

Peter1469
03-29-2014, 09:33 AM
I could introduce you to a cousin of mine :tongue:

Who is this person?

Green Arrow
03-29-2014, 09:37 AM
Who is this person?

He's my great uncle's step-son. He married a first generation Scottish gal while in the military, and John was her son from a previous marriage. He lives in Glasgow but goes to London every so often.

Peter1469
03-29-2014, 09:44 AM
He's my great uncle's step-son. He married a first generation Scottish gal while in the military, and John was her son from a previous marriage. He lives in Glasgow but goes to London every so often.
Cool.

Newpublius
03-29-2014, 12:00 PM
I was hoping for younger and prettier, Peter, sorry.....