whats in a word and whats in a sentence?

[RollingWave]

Well most threads here have been much more focused on religion, so let's shift course a bit.

Here's a sentence from Confucius' LunYu (The Analects) which is controversial.



民可使由之，不可使知之

This sentence is problematic, because in ancient Chinese writin it lacks commas and periods, which often leads to confusion in interpeting a sentence, in this sentence, with the comma in the middle the interepetation would be

"You can let the people do what they want, but you can not let them become knowledgable"

which seem to hint that to rule a country the leaders should try to keep people uneducated and thus unable to be in contact with dangerous ideas.

However, many more modern scholars wonder if the sentence actually was suppose to be seperated like this?


民可使，由之，不可使，知之
the simple change in commas ended up in a whole new different translation... which would mean

"let the able people do what they want, and educate those who are not able."

fun with language :tongue:

These sort of language translation are a major issue for many ancient / pre-modern philosophy and religious text, language change over time including the meaning of praticular words, and original meanings may not be what you seem to precieve at first sight.

Another famous example of controversial Confucious saying.


唯女子與小人為難養也

In modern chinese interpetation, this would translate to "Women and deciteful persons are hard to get along with" which obvious smacks of Chauvinism. but the problem is deciteful person (xiao ren) can also mean "servants" and women (Niu Zhi ) can also mean "Women and Children" again more modern interpetation seem to find that what Confucious probably mean was (espeically when taken the whole text into consideration)

"wife and childern along with servants/underlings are the hardest to have a proper relationship with, if your too close to them they lose respect for you, if your too distant from them they will hate you" (which is a pretty obviously true observation that is about as true today as it was 3-4 thousand years ago)

[Dagny]

Suddenly, I'm in the mood for moo shu pork

[MMC]

Well most threads here have been much more focused on religion, so let's shift course a bit.

Here's a sentence from Confucius' LunYu (The Analects) which is controversial.



This sentence is problematic, because in ancient Chinese writin it lacks commas and periods, which often leads to confusion in interpeting a sentence, in this sentence, with the comma in the middle the interepetation would be

"You can let the people do what they want, but you can not let them become knowledgable"

which seem to hint that to rule a country the leaders should try to keep people uneducated and thus unable to be in contact with dangerous ideas.

However, many more modern scholars wonder if the sentence actually was suppose to be seperated like this?


the simple change in commas ended up in a whole new different translation... which would mean

"let the able people do what they want, and educate those who are not able."

fun with language :tongue:

These sort of language translation are a major issue for many ancient / pre-modern philosophy and religious text, language change over time including the meaning of praticular words, and original meanings may not be what you seem to precieve at first sight.

Another famous example of controversial Confucious saying.



In modern chinese interpetation, this would translate to "Women and deciteful persons are hard to get along with" which obvious smacks of Chauvinism. but the problem is deciteful person (xiao ren) can also mean "servants" and women (Niu Zhi ) can also mean "Women and Children" again more modern interpetation seem to find that what Confucious probably mean was (espeically when taken the whole text into consideration)

"wife and childern along with servants/underlings are the hardest to have a proper relationship with, if your too close to them they lose respect for you, if your too distant from them they will hate you" (which is a pretty obviously true observation that is about as true today as it was 3-4 thousand years ago)


Thanks RW.....are you familiar with Chu-Ko Yen?

[Conley]

That is quite a difference between the first two expressions:

"You can let the people do what they want, but you can not let them become knowledgable"

and

"let the able people do what they want, and educate those who are not able."

Besides the placing of the commas, is there not more context around the sentence in question to provide an answer as to which was meant. Also I would think that the rest of the book and Confucius's own views on politics and education could provide a better clue as to what was meant. What do you think RW?

[RollingWave]

In terms of LunYu and Confucisim in general a lot o stress is placed on education, so the later interpetation would seem to be much more logical and inline with the genreal theme. for example here's a very well known sentence in the book


三人行，必有我師,擇其善者而從之,其不善者而改之

"If you see three people walking together, then there is at least one of them which you can learn from, either from their positives, or see their fault and reflect yourself on."

Generally pointing out that no matter how educated you are there is always something you can learn from someone else.

and a few others regarding educating people



以不教民戰，是謂棄之

"if you don't educate your people, it is the same as abandoning them"

I think this sums it up quite well.

[MMC]

In terms of LunYu and Confucisim in general a lot o stress is placed on education, so the later interpetation would seem to be much more logical and inline with the genreal theme. for example here's a very well known sentence in the book



"If you see three people walking together, then there is at least one of them which you can learn from, either from their positives, or see their fault and reflect yourself on."

Generally pointing out that no matter how educated you are there is always something you can learn from someone else.

and a few others regarding educating people



"if you don't educate your people, it is the same as abandoning them"

I think this sums it up quite well.


I agree it does. Seems we can use a few of those parables around here.

[Conley]

In terms of LunYu and Confucisim in general a lot o stress is placed on education, so the later interpetation would seem to be much more logical and inline with the genreal theme. for example here's a very well known sentence in the book



"If you see three people walking together, then there is at least one of them which you can learn from, either from their positives, or see their fault and reflect yourself on."

Generally pointing out that no matter how educated you are there is always something you can learn from someone else.

and a few others regarding educating people



"if you don't educate your people, it is the same as abandoning them"

I think this sums it up quite well.

Excellent. I like those a great deal. We can always learn from each other, of that I'm certain.

With that context I agree with you and think the second interpretation is most likely, "let the able people do what they want, and educate those who are not able."

[MMC]

I have learned, that to be with those I like.....is Enough. Walt Whitman!