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Codename Section
09-04-2014, 07:43 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123) said something interesting. She said the role of a police officer is to protect people. How do you protect someone after the fact? So I looked this up.




http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Criminology_Basics/a/Early-History-Of-Policing.htm


My Bother's Keeper: Clan Control and Blood FeudsAfter the dissolution of the Roman Empire (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fallofrome/a/EndofRome.htm), the responsibility for maintaining order fell once again to local authorities. In England, society reverted to the ancient notion that individuals were responsible for themselves and their own protection.
English law provided individual subjects with the authority and responsibility to use force in order to maintain control. Neighbors were expected to help each other. This form of social control was referred to as "Kin Policing (http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Criminology_Basics/a/The-History-Of-Modern-Policing.htm)" by English historian Charles Reith because it relied on the idea that families and clans were responsible for the actions of their own members. Just as in ancient societies, clans would take revenge for transgressions and blood feuds prevailed, sometimes wiping out entire families.


Community Policing and the FrankpledgeIn order to establish a more uniform measure of social order, a new method was required to maintain control. As a result, a new concept of policing was developed in which the local citizens were charged with protecting their local communities.
This community policing model was called the "frankpledge," and required all males over the age of 12 to join a group of 9 of their neighbors. This group of 10 was called a "tything," and its members swore to capture and detain any member of their group or clan who committed a crime. Each "tythingman" was sworn to protect his fellow subjects, and service was obligatory and unpaid.
Ten tythings were grouped together to form a "hundred," and were placed under the supervision of a constable (http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Glossary/g/Constable.htm). With the constable came the first notions of a modern police officer, as it marked the first time an individual was given the specific, full-time task of maintaining order.
All of the constables in a region, or shire, were placed under the control of the Shire Reeve (sheriff), who was appointed by the king, marking the beginnings of the system of law enforcement we are familiar with today.
Parish Constable System
Lack of oversight by the crown lead to a breakdown of the frankpledge system, and it was eventually replaced with a more manageable parish constable system. Unlike the frankpledge, males in a parish, or town, served a 1-year term as constable. The constables were responsible for organizing night watchmen to serve as guards at the town gates at night.
Constables were given the authority to raise the "hue and cry," which was a call to action in the event of a crime or emergency. At the sounding of the hue and cry, all males in the parish were required to drop what they were doing and come to the aid of the constable. The hue and cry would travel from parish to parish within a shire until the criminal was apprehended or assistance was no longer required.
Justices of the Peace and the Beginnings of Modern Policing
Near the end of the 14th century, justices of the peace were appointed by the king to provide support to the shire reeves and constables. The justices of the peace had the authority to issue warrants and held arraignment hearings for suspected criminals. They also tried cases involving misdemeanors and civil infractions.
A system gradually developed wherein the shire reeves served as assistants to the justices of the peace and employed the local constables to supervise the watchmen, take suspected criminals into custody and serve warrants.
This system of local law enforcement served the small communities that existed at the time well into the 19th century, and was brought to the American colonies (http://americanhistory.about.com/library/charts/blcolonial13.htm), as well. It was not until the population explosion of the late 18th century in the United Sates and Britain that there became an apparent need to professionalize the police force.


I like the idea of the bold. I also like the idea of private policing like what is being done now in Detroit so that you can fire people who get out of hand.

Here is what I want cops to do and this alone: solve crimes that the community reports, arrest people, bring them to booking/arraignment/court.

Matty
09-04-2014, 07:49 PM
Cops don't bring people to trial.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 07:51 PM
Cops don't bring people to trial.

They bring them to the courts/trial. It's the DA that decides what to do with them.

I was brought to an arraignment once (thanks Alyosha) for fighting.

Matty
09-04-2014, 07:54 PM
They bring them to the courts/trial. It's the DA that decides what to do with them.

I was brought to an arraignment once (thanks @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)) for fighting.
Bad! Who was you fighting wif?

Matty
09-04-2014, 07:56 PM
Cops should have only pea shooters so they don't hurt anyone and upset the libertarians! :)

Redrose
09-04-2014, 07:56 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123) said something interesting. She said the role of a police officer is to protect people. How do you protect someone after the fact? So I looked this up.




http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Criminology_Basics/a/Early-History-Of-Policing.htm






I like the idea of the bold. I also like the idea of private policing like what is being done now in Detroit so that you can fire people who get out of hand.

Here is what I want cops to do and this alone: solve crimes that the community reports, arrest people, bring them to booking/arraignment/court.


That sounds more like a lynch mob or a posse. I don't like either.

The Xl
09-04-2014, 07:57 PM
To uphold peace, to arrest people who are legitimate threats to the citizenry.

That is all

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:03 PM
Bad! Who was you fighting wif?

Three squids. :)

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:04 PM
That sounds more like a lynch mob or a posse. I don't like either.

What is the difference? People are getting killed now, right? Like what is a lynch mob but people who could potentially kill a criminal and cops are doing that now.

I'm not trying to be "smart". I'm saying the new protocols are that any threat is met with death, so how's that different than the potential dangers of a community posse?

Redrose
09-04-2014, 08:05 PM
I have to smile at threads like this one. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard said "where is a cop when you need him?" or "Why didn't the cops stop him?" or when you see someone run a red light, you look around to see if a cop gets him and get frustrated when a cop doesn't catch him.

But it seems when the shoe is on the other foot, cops should have water pistols, and have their authority limited.

Idiotic.

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:06 PM
What is the difference? People are getting killed now, right? Like what is a lynch mob but people who could potentially kill a criminal and cops are doing that now.

I'm not trying to be "smart". I'm saying the new protocols are that any threat is met with death, so how's that different than the potential dangers of a community posse?
You don't get a trial? Just death? You people take this make believe too far.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:08 PM
I have to smile at threads like this one. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard said "where is a cop when you need him?" or "Why didn't the cops stop him?" or when you see someone run a red light, you look around to see if a cop gets him and get frustrated when a cop doesn't catch him.

But it seems when the shoe is on the other foot, cops should have water pistols, and have their authority limited.

Idiotic.

Redrose this is a serious thread.

I am asking what YOU think a cop should be allowed to do. I am 100% curious in a sincere way.

I don't ever ask "where is a cop when you need him" because I don't think I need cops most of the time. I don't think a cops job is to prevent crime but to solve crimes and apprehend people who have committed them that aren't dead.

If someone breaks into my home it is my duty to shoot them. My home is my castle. To have cops "prevent crime" cops would have to be stationed in people's houses with them.

We are responsible for ourselves.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:09 PM
You don't get a trial? Just death? You people take this make believe too far.

You said you believe that if a cop is at risk, not even death, they're allowed to shoot people because they don't deserve to be hurt.

Therefore, cops can blast anyone under your system because there is always risk. Matalese

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:10 PM
Three squids. :)

YES apparently; You cant snap the hand of the person that grabbed your wife's ass in half either :)

I THOUGHT IT WOULD REMIND HIM OF HIS MANNERS IN THE FUTURE

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:13 PM
You said you believe that if a cop is at risk, not even death, they're allowed to shoot people because they don't deserve to be hurt.

Therefore, cops can blast anyone under your system because there is always risk. @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796)

I think that with your respect of the Police, of which my son is one, When I am doing some training next week I am going to take it out on a few of your Devil Dogs, just for fun!

I have been having a bad few weeks, a little pain and humiliation will be good for them, don't you think?

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:14 PM
YES apparently; You cant snap the hand of the person that grabbed your wife's ass in half either :)

I THOUGHT IT WOULD REMIND HIM OF HIS MANNERS IN THE FUTURE

Animal Mother and The Wash let me fight it out while they sat on a car and watched. Assholes. I did impress the ladies though. :D

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:16 PM
I think that with your respect of the Police, of which my son is one, When I am doing some training next week I am going to take it out on a few of your Devil Dogs, just for fun!

I have been having a bad few weeks, a little pain and humiliation will be good for them, don't you think?

I have many friends in the police which is why I have the opinion that I do that they should not be allowed loose protocols and rules of engagement. :)

That said, I'd love to watch. The new USMC trains every infantry grunt like a special forces marine now. Unless you get a POG you're in trouble. :D

Ethereal
09-04-2014, 08:16 PM
Cops should have only pea shooters so they don't hurt anyone and upset the libertarians! :)

Or they should have gunships and rockets launchers so they don't worry the conservatives!

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:17 PM
You said you believe that if a cop is at risk, not even death, they're allowed to shoot people because they don't deserve to be hurt.

Therefore, cops can blast anyone under your system because there is always risk. @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796)
No, I said I believe they have the right to go home at night and kiss their wife and children. Just like the rest of us. Do you disagree?

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:19 PM
No, I said I believe they have the right to go home at night and kiss their wife and children. Just like the rest of us. Do you disagree?

So if a cop is say...punched but the guy doesn't have a weapon, can the cop shoot him?

I'm just clarifying, Miss Matalese.

Bob
09-04-2014, 08:20 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123) this is a serious thread.

I am asking what YOU think a cop should be allowed to do. I am 100% curious in a sincere way.

I don't ever ask "where is a cop when you need him" because I don't think I need cops most of the time. I don't think a cops job is to prevent crime but to solve crimes and apprehend people who have committed them that aren't dead.

If someone breaks into my home it is my duty to shoot them. My home is my castle. To have cops "prevent crime" cops would have to be stationed in people's houses with them.

We are responsible for ourselves.

Cop shows are poor instructors but based on my son in law and our talks, I get the idea cops are told about crimes. Seldom do they see it in person. At times cops get lucky and see the crime happening. They then become a prime witness.

It is the detectives on the force who investigate. Their primary role is to find out.

A DA decides if it goes to court.

This seems to me to depend on who you contact as cops. People in big cities may think of this very different than those in small to rural cities.

Usually when you call the cops, you will wait fairly long for them to arrive. They can't protect anybody when they are not at the scene. i don't see them as protectors.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:23 PM
I have many friends in the police which is why I have the opinion that I do that they should not be allowed loose protocols and rules of engagement. :)

That said, I'd love to watch. The new USMC trains every infantry grunt like a special forces marine now. Unless you get a POG you're in trouble. :D

Of course they do! what do you think I am doing there! I have a bunch of newbies, :) YOu know what I am going to teach them, it is not fun stuff, Do you remember where I trained for 7 years?

Think of where many of my loyalties lie?

Redrose
09-04-2014, 08:25 PM
What is the difference? People are getting killed now, right? Like what is a lynch mob but people who could potentially kill a criminal and cops are doing that now.

I'm not trying to be "smart". I'm saying the new protocols are that any threat is met with death, so how's that different than the potential dangers of a community posse?


I'll tell you. In 1997 in central Florida, a 33 year old Black man was accused of raping a 14 year old White girl. Her father wanted him dragged out of his house, strung up a tree and gutted. He had no trouble rounding up over a dozen White men who were more than willing to avenge her honor. They went to his house, a neat, pretty house, flowers, picket fence, well kept. They pounded on the door, his mother called 911 frantic. The police arrived in time to rescue him. He was taken into custody to protect him. The State looked at the accusation and filed charges and he was booked. As a child rapist he wasn't safe in jail, and the mob on the outside wanted to kill him. He was kept out of the general population and went to trial. I did the trial. The girl was called as a State witness, and told a horrible tale of multiple rapes by him over several days, all positions, all sex acts, the audience was horrified, looking at the defendant with looks that could kill.

The defense cross examined her, and the facts started to fall apart, the defendant had back surgery months earlier and was totally impotent and physically unable to perform the positions she claimed. She eventually admitted under oath that she lied, he was totally innocent. She wanted to make her boyfriend jealous an older man wanted her. He was the older brother of a friend and she new his name, age and house. He walked out of court a free man, but the crazy mob still wanted him dead. He and his mom were forced to relocate.

You may not like our system, but in reality you're lucky we have it.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:26 PM
I think that with your respect of the Police, of which my son is one, When I am doing some training next week I am going to take it out on a few of your Devil Dogs, just for fun!

I have been having a bad few weeks, a little pain and humiliation will be good for them, don't you think?

It is OK either our Marine Hero's and these guys are Hero's are gong to start, judging the vast majority of the peace officers that do one hell of a job each and every day a little more fair, or I will start telling some of the stories of their brethren that did some really sick shit.

And we can pretend that they are all the same.

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:27 PM
So if a cop is say...punched but the guy doesn't have a weapon, can the cop shoot him?

I'm just clarifying, Miss Matalese.
Are you talking about the Brown case! Yes, the guy punched him fractured bones, wrestled him in the car for the cops weapon, the gun discharged in the car, hell yes, he had the right to shoot him.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:31 PM
Are you talking about the Brown case! Yes, the guy punched him fractured bones, wrestled him in the car for the cops weapon, the gun discharged in the car, hell yes, he had the right to shoot him.

In the events that happened, if they turn out to be the story that the police are telling, then he had the right to shoot.

HOWEVER!

From what is being said, this officer approached this situation totally incorrect, and not only put himself in a very dangerous position, but actually was in part responsible for these actions.

So at the very least, he should not be allowed to return to the streets.

Ethereal
09-04-2014, 08:32 PM
That sounds more like a lynch mob or a posse. I don't like either.

It sounds like the militia.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state...

I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.
-George Mason

The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.
-Thomas Paine

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.
-Richard Henry Lee

They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Ben Franklin

Ethereal
09-04-2014, 08:35 PM
I'll tell you. In 1997 in central Florida, a 33 year old Black man was accused of raping a 14 year old White girl. Her father wanted him dragged out of his house, strung up a tree and gutted. He had no trouble rounding up over a dozen White men who were more than willing to avenge her honor. They went to his house, a neat, pretty house, flowers, picket fence, well kept. They pounded on the door, his mother called 911 frantic. The police arrived in time to rescue him. He was taken into custody to protect him. The State looked at the accusation and filed charges and he was booked. As a child rapist he wasn't safe in jail, and the mob on the outside wanted to kill him. He was kept out of the general population and went to trial. I did the trial. The girl was called as a State witness, and told a horrible tale of multiple rapes by him over several days, all positions, all sex acts, the audience was horrified, looking at the defendant with looks that could kill.

The defense cross examined her, and the facts started to fall apart, the defendant had back surgery months earlier and was totally impotent and physically unable to perform the positions she claimed. She eventually admitted under oath that she lied, he was totally innocent. She wanted to make her boyfriend jealous an older man wanted her. He was the older brother of a friend and she new his name, age and house. He walked out of court a free man, but the crazy mob still wanted him dead. He and his mom were forced to relocate.

You may not like our system, but in reality you're lucky we have it.

There have been plenty of innocent people who were victimized by the "justice" system as well.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:36 PM
I'll tell you. In 1997 in central Florida, a 33 year old Black man was accused of raping a 14 year old White girl. Her father wanted him dragged out of his house, strung up a tree and gutted. He had no trouble rounding up over a dozen White men who were more than willing to avenge her honor. They went to his house, a neat, pretty house, flowers, picket fence, well kept. They pounded on the door, his mother called 911 frantic. The police arrived in time to rescue him. He was taken into custody to protect him. The State looked at the accusation and filed charges and he was booked. As a child rapist he wasn't safe in jail, and the mob on the outside wanted to kill him. He was kept out of the general population and went to trial. I did the trial. The girl was called as a State witness, and told a horrible tale of multiple rapes by him over several days, all positions, all sex acts, the audience was horrified, looking at the defendant with looks that could kill.

The defense cross examined her, and the facts started to fall apart, the defendant had back surgery months earlier and was totally impotent and physically unable to perform the positions she claimed. She eventually admitted under oath that she lied, he was totally innocent. She wanted to make her boyfriend jealous an older man wanted her. He was the older brother of a friend and she new his name, age and house. He walked out of court a free man, but the crazy mob still wanted him dead. He and his mom were forced to relocate.

You may not like our system, but in reality you're lucky we have it.

@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123)

you're telling me individual stories and not answering general questions. I asked what you think cops should be allowed to do. That's all. I then asked you what is the difference between a posse and cops when the rules of engagement today allow for cops to also use deadly force in any risk situation.

I can give you individual stories, too, that are tailored to make my pov seem right. Let's not do that. Let's talk about what we want to see in our communities.

I'm trying to understand yall and hopefully you will understand me.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:37 PM
Are you talking about the Brown case! Yes, the guy punched him fractured bones, wrestled him in the car for the cops weapon, the gun discharged in the car, hell yes, he had the right to shoot him.

No, I'm asking you a general question. If a guy with no weapon punches a cop do you think the cop is allowed to shoot him?

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:39 PM
In the events that happened, if they turn out to be the story that the police are telling, then he had the right to shoot.

HOWEVER!

From what is being said, this officer approached this situation totally incorrect, and not only put himself in a very dangerous position, but actually was in part responsible for these actions.

So at the very least, he should not be allowed to return to the streets.


Tell me what you mean that he approached it incorrectly. I don't understand.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:41 PM
It is OK either our Marine Hero's and these guys are Hero's are gong to start, judging the vast majority of the peace officers that do one hell of a job each and every day a little more fair, or I will start telling some of the stories of their brethren that did some really sick shit.

And we can pretend that they are all the same.


And now @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) touched on what I want to talk about: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

Does anyone remember Haditha? Where the marines went fucking HAM on the Iraqis after one of ours got killed?

Anyone?

Okay, we were the assholes who came after that group and our jobs were fucked up and tough as hell because we had to change our rules of engagement and calm down the population and the violence.

Suddenly, we could only shoot people who posed a direct fucking threat to our lives with bomb, vehicle or weapon. They had to fire at us, we had to have a clear line of fire--the USMC ROE is so fucking tight now but what we found was that people stopped hating us and starting coming to us for help.

So go right ahead, tell those stories, Z, and I'll agree with you 100%.

:D

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:43 PM
No, I'm asking you a general question. If a guy with no weapon punches a cop do you think the cop is allowed to shoot him?


Impossible to answer a general question. All situations are different. Decisions are split second. If a cop shoots a person with malice and abuse punish him. If he shoots a person because he is threaten with his life leave him alone. That's general as I can get. And don't tell me an unarmed man cannot kill a human being cause they can.

Ethereal
09-04-2014, 08:44 PM
It is OK either our Marine Hero's and these guys are Hero's are gong to start, judging the vast majority of the peace officers that do one hell of a job each and every day a little more fair, or I will start telling some of the stories of their brethren that did some really sick shit.

And we can pretend that they are all the same.

I know all about the sick shit they did. And they did it because they were given lax rules of engagement, same as police in America. And it did nothing to substantially protect them from their enemies either. If anything, it put them in more danger because it inflamed hatred and resentment among the local population, who became increasingly uncooperative, suspicious, and militant towards the occupiers. It was only after they imposed more restrictive rules of engagement on the military that the sick shit they were doing came to a stop and the local people became more accepting of their presence.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:46 PM
Impossible to answer a general question. All situations are different. Decisions are split second. If a cop shoots a person with malice and abuse punish him. If he shoots a person because he is threaten with his life leave him alone. That's general as I can get. And don't tell me an unarmed man cannot kill a human being cause they can.


I disagree. That is vigilante justice when a cop can decide on his own what he is allowed to do. That is why we have rules of engagement. You must have a general rule or else it's not equal justice, but situational.

Skinny people and old people will have better justice than 18-25 year old men.

We had ROEs and did just fine with them being generalized and won over people.

Anyway, my love bug, I was just curious. How was your company? Did your sister love the shrimp?

Guerilla
09-04-2014, 08:47 PM
The only one in the poll I wasn't sure about was if cops should be able to apprehend criminals who have broken the law. I would argue that if the person isn't actively harming anyone, then the police don't need to be arresting anyone, because it would seem more like a matter that can be handled civilly. I think that falls under the third option.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:48 PM
And now @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) touched on what I want to talk about: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

Does anyone remember Haditha? Where the marines went fucking HAM on the Iraqis after one of ours got killed?

Anyone?

Okay, we were the assholes who came after that group and our jobs were fucked up and tough as hell because suddenly we had to change our rules of engagement and calm down the population and the violence.

Suddenly, we could only shoot people who posed a direct fucking threat to our lives with bomb, vehicle or weapon. They had to fire at us, we had to have a clear line of fire--the USMC ROE is so fucking tight now but what we found was that people stopped hating us and starting coming to us for help.

So go right ahead, tell those stories, Z, and I'll agree with you 100%.

:D

Just like I agree that all officers that break the law should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

You don't have a listing in your poll that explains what an officers job is.

Because it changes with every situation. What about the one that give CPR to the man with chest pains. helps the lost kid at the fair find his parents.

Takes the time to talk with the kid caught smoking a joint on the corner about the danger of drugs. Keeps the wife from being killed by her drunk husband, even though he knows that she will welcome him back tomorrow.

These officers hit the ground without the tools and the skills to handle true active shooter and violent situations, because the money is not there, and States and the government are broke.

And many of them take money out of their own pocket to attend our courses so they have the skills needed.

What about a thank you for those guys.

Redrose
09-04-2014, 08:51 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123) this is a serious thread.

I am asking what YOU think a cop should be allowed to do. I am 100% curious in a sincere way.

I don't ever ask "where is a cop when you need him" because I don't think I need cops most of the time. I don't think a cops job is to prevent crime but to solve crimes and apprehend people who have committed them that aren't dead.

If someone breaks into my home it is my duty to shoot them. My home is my castle. To have cops "prevent crime" cops would have to be stationed in people's houses with them.

We are responsible for ourselves.

Police are trained to be proactive not just reactive. Isn't it better if they can prevent a beating, or a burglary, or a murder, rather than just show up and arrest the bad guy?

I am being very serious with you, contact your local police department, most of them allow "ride alongs" for civilians. I've done it many times, plus riding with my husband in his detective car. They were allowed to use them for personal use, because they are on call 24/7.

You may get a different perspective of what they really do. Most of the time it's boring, just routine patrol, looking for anything out of place, like lights on in a closed business, store or bank, someone lurking around a closed strip mall. They look for swerving drunk drivers before they kill themselves or others, answering routine calls, dogs barking, music too loud, neighbors fighting, a daughter not home yet, worried parents. Drivers broken down, call a tow for them, fix a flat tire for a woman or older person, execute warrants, break up bar fights. Answering medical emergency call, child drownings, heart attacks, baby choking, falls. But even on the slow nights, you can't let your defenses down, you're in a uniform, you're a target for bad guys. A slow easy night can turn on a dime.

I was 18 when my first husband became a cop, my second husband is a retired Deputy Sheriff of 34 years. I'm 66 and since 18 this was my life, I admit I am biased, but I've seen hundreds of situations they have to deal with.

Ravens Fan
09-04-2014, 08:51 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123) said something interesting. She said the role of a police officer is to protect people. How do you protect someone after the fact? So I looked this up.




http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Criminology_Basics/a/Early-History-Of-Policing.htm






I like the idea of the bold. I also like the idea of private policing like what is being done now in Detroit so that you can fire people who get out of hand.

Here is what I want cops to do and this alone: solve crimes that the community reports, arrest people, bring them to booking/arraignment/court.

I would add to the poll - Only shoot to disarm/disable unless absolutely necessary.

Matty
09-04-2014, 08:51 PM
I disagree. That is vigilante justice when a cop can decide on his own what he is allowed to do. That is why we have rules of engagement. You must have a general rule or else it's not equal justice, but situational.

Skinny people and old people will have better justice than 18-25 year old men.

We had ROEs and did just fine with them being generalized and won over people.

Anyway, my love bug, I was just curious. How was your company? Did your sister love the shrimp?
:) She did. We had a good time with them. They stayed a week, she got to eat all the shrimp she wanted then we took them to Captain Anderson's for grouper and scamp!

Peter1469
09-04-2014, 08:53 PM
You guys had a hard time in the last decade. In Desert Storm, everything to our front was fair game. That is why we won in 36 hours.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:53 PM
Just like I agree that all officers that break the law should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

You don't have a listing in your poll that explains what an officers job is.

Because it changes with every situation. What about the one that give CPR to the man with chest pains. helps the lost kid at the fair find his parents.

Takes the time to talk with the kid caught smoking a joint on the corner about the danger of drugs. Keeps the wife from being killed by her drunk husband, even though he knows that she will welcome him back tomorrow.

These officers hit the ground without the tools and the skills to handle true active shooter and violent situations, because the money is not there, and States and the government are broke.

And many of them take money out of their own pocket to attend our courses so they have the skills needed.

What about a thank you for those guys.

Because this isn't a bash the cops thread or a thank the cops thread because this isn't about individual people. I am asking you what you think a cops job should be.

That's it.

There are asshole marines and great marines. More of the former, actually. There are asshole cops and great cops. How you control the assholes of both are with protocols.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 08:54 PM
I know all about the sick shit they did. And they did it because they were given lax rules of engagement, same as police in America. And it did nothing to substantially protect them from their enemies either. If anything, it put them in more danger because it inflamed hatred and resentment among the local population, who became increasingly uncooperative, suspicious, and militant towards the occupiers. It was only after they imposed more restrictive rules of engagement on the military that the sick shit they were doing came to a stop and the local people became more accepting of their presence.


Dude Rape can't be considered a rule of engagement in any situation! So stop.

I agree that there is an issue with some of the officers on the street. But as you can see by some of the responses, there are several people that believe you are treating all officers the same.

So would it be right to say that all marines that served in Iraq were rapist? Of course not.

do we need change? Yes but we need them to be respected and these threads are doing just the opposite

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:55 PM
Police are trained to be proactive not just reactive. Isn't it better if they can prevent a beating, or a burglary, or a murder, rather than just show up and arrest the bad guy?

I am being very serious with you, contact your local police department, most of them allow "ride alongs" for civilians. I've done it many times, plus riding with my husband in his detective car. They were allowed to use them for personal use, because they are on call 24/7.

You may get a different perspective of what they really do. Most of the time it's boring, just routine patrol, looking for anything out of place, like lights on in a closed business, store or bank, someone lurking around a closed strip mall. They look for swerving drunk drivers before they kill themselves or others, answering routine calls, dogs barking, music too loud, neighbors fighting, a daughter not home yet, worried parents. Drivers broken down, call a tow for them, fix a flat tire for a woman or older person, execute warrants, break up bar fights. Answering medical emergency call, child drownings, heart attacks, baby choking, falls. But even on the slow nights, you can't let your defenses down, you're in a uniform, you're a target for bad guys. A slow easy night can turn on a dime.

I was 18 when my first husband became a cop, my second husband is a retired Deputy Sheriff of 34 years. I'm 66 and since 18 this was my life, I admit I am biased, but I've seen hundreds of situations they have to deal with.


I have been on ride alongs and I have about 4 friends who are active police officers in NVA now. This is about protocols, not individual people.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 08:57 PM
Dude Rape can't be considered a rule of engagement in any situation! So stop.

I agree that there is an issue with some of the officers on the street. But as you can see by some of the responses, there are several people that believe you are treating all officers the same.

So would it be right to say that all marines that served in Iraq were rapist? Of course not.

do we need change? Yes but we need them to be respected and these threads are doing just the opposite


There are several people who misunderstand this thread then. I've only asked questions. Go back and read. I refuse to talk about individuals because it's not about individuals. Individuals do what their protocols tell them to do.

There are rules about rape in war. If you rape in war you've violated your protocols just like cops who rape woman, they're breaking the law.

Back on topic, zelmo1234

What is a cops's job? See poll.

Matty
09-04-2014, 09:00 PM
You guys had a hard time in the last decade. In Desert Storm, everything to our front was fair game. That is why we won in 36 hours.


Did you you read the piece today about how frustrated the troops are? Deployed once again to Iraq, they hear old Joe Biden shouting we'll follow them to the gates of hell, but the troops aren't allowed off the base much less to the gates of hell. Funny.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:01 PM
Because this isn't a bash the cops thread or a thank the cops thread because this isn't about individual people. I am asking you what you think a cops job should be.

That's it.

There are asshole marines and great marines. More of the former, actually. There are asshole cops and great cops. How you control the assholes of both are with protocols.

Yeah but they are my kind of asshole!

Here is the thing The rules of engagement for an officer are not all that different form that of a civilian. They need to be in clear and present danger of death or great bodily harm. civilians have the luxury of sexual assault. Officer do not!

That being said, a person that has a bullet proof vest on and a Taser, some still have nightsticks, has a higher threshold of great bodily harm or death.

Just as the marines on here have a different threshold.

Now once that has been decided, it is not over yet, they have to have the ability to do so as well.

This is where I got into trouble because my wife was carrying a SW .40 she could have defended herself.

Bob
09-04-2014, 09:01 PM
I have been on ride alongs and I have about 4 friends who are active police officers in NVA now. This is about protocols, not individual people.

What did you observe cops doing wrong when you rode along? Codename Section

I have a son in law who retired as a cop and have represented others who bought or sold homes using me.

My daughter wanted to be a cop and worked for one department for a probationary period of time.

It seems they are often just misunderstood. My smart daughter holds a degree in criminal justice and chose to marry the cop. This guy is so damned nice. Very loving to his family and to everybody else, you would not guess is even a cop.

Ethereal
09-04-2014, 09:03 PM
Dude Rape can't be considered a rule of engagement in any situation! So stop.

Lax rules of engagement create an environemnt of permissiveness and moral ambiguity, which in turn promotes abuses of power. If you like, I can give examples of police officers committing rape, too.


I agree that there is an issue with some of the officers on the street. But as you can see by some of the responses, there are several people that believe you are treating all officers the same.

So would it be right to say that all marines that served in Iraq were rapist? Of course not.

do we need change? Yes but we need them to be respected and these threads are doing just the opposite

Nobody is saying they are all the same. We're saying that lax rules of engagement promote abuse and corruption among the police.

And once you start comparing police to military, you basically prove our point about the militarization of American police forces, which is something that no free state can tolerate.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:03 PM
There are several people who misunderstand this thread then. I've only asked questions. Go back and read. I refuse to talk about individuals because it's not about individuals. Individuals do what their protocols tell them to do.

There are rules about rape in war. If you rape in war you've violated your protocols just like cops who rape woman, they're breaking the law.

Back on topic, @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588)

What is a cops's job? See poll.

You poll does not have the correct answer!

It would be a disservice to any office to check one of those boxes.

To sum it up it is to protect and to serve,, and that is a huge generality.

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=Codename Section;751938]There are several people who misunderstand this thread then. I've only asked questions. Go back and read. I refuse to talk about individuals because it's not about individuals. Individuals do what their protocols tell them to do.

There are rules about rape in war. If you rape in war you've violated your protocols just like cops who rape woman, they're breaking the law.

Back on topic, @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588)

What is a cops's job? See poll.[/QUOTE
Codename Section. What protocols do you take issue with?

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:08 PM
Lax rules of engagement create an environemnt of permissiveness and moral ambiguity, which in turn promotes abuses of power. If you like, I can give examples of police officers committing rape, too.

Nobody is saying they are all the same. We're saying that lax rules of engagement promote abuse and corruption among the police.

And once you start comparing police to military, you basically prove our point about the militarization of American police forces, which is something that no free state can tolerate.

What do you think that the rules of engagement are for an office?

They are not really lax And YES I have been saying all along that there are officers that are criminals. they need justice to be served.

But I am really curious as to when you think they can use deadly force.

It is no different than yours. With your training.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 09:10 PM
You poll does not have the correct answer!

It would be a disservice to any office to check one of those boxes.

To sum it up it is to protect and to serve,, and that is a huge generality.

No, it really wouldn't. Make one about the military and I'll do the same for it.

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:11 PM
The best answer is to protect and to serve the community. It is not on the poll the answer on the poll are insulting at best

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:11 PM
Use of Force Continuum

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:13 PM
Where is this option?

http://www.danburymint.com/secure/Content/ImagesProducts/0b186bcf-48dc-4fbd-8c4c-58522eada041.jpg (http://www.danburymint.com/Jewelry/prod/749/Police-Ring---Serve-and-Protect_9034-0019.aspx)

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:16 PM
No, it really wouldn't. Make one about the military and I'll do the same for it.

Ok but I would not put on there to uphold the constitution of the USA and protect the citizens of the country

I will put things on there like rape a women put a bullet in her head and then rape her 11 year old daughter?

That would be wrong. Officers are first responders, have to deliver emergency medical procedures. get the drunk off the road before he kills someone.

Drive the women in labor to the hospital because the EMT's are busy. help the child find his family. St0p the asshole form beating his children and wife.

And they have to get the bad guys off the street. gather evidence in crimes and accidents.

You think that your job descriptions are fair? they are not!

zelmo1234
09-04-2014, 09:20 PM
Tell me what you mean that he approached it incorrectly. I don't understand.

If he knew about the strong armed robbery, which it looks like the call did go out, so unless he was out of his car and did not have his radio, he would have known that.

He had a suspect that fit the description of someone that just committed a violent crime, was larger than him, and he not only made contact with the suspect while sitting in the car, but also let the person approach the car!

He put himself in the worst possible position for a violent encounter.

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 09:27 PM
Ok but I would not put on there to uphold the constitution of the USA and protect the citizens of the country

I will put things on there like rape a women put a bullet in her head and then rape her 11 year old daughter?

You know cops do those things, too, right? You're being silly now. I put up items people have said on here already. They are non-inflammatory and you're taking it personal.

Where did I say: The job of cops is to beat black dudes up and kill them dead on streets? Nowhere.

I made legitimate questions, and you're taking this in illegitimate places.




That would be wrong. Officers are first responders, have to deliver emergency medical procedures. get the drunk off the road before he kills someone.


I put the thing about drunks up there. As for EMT work, in my state that does not happen. They have medical personnel for that.



Drive the women in labor to the hospital because the EMT's are busy. help the child find his family. St0p the asshole form beating his children and wife.

Then put that in a post that you think this should be their job. I don't know many EMTs that don't show up for pregnant women tho, and kids without a family soon find their parents in jail, and cops show up after the wives are beat, so...

but...that's cool that you think cops should do those things.




And they have to get the bad guys off the street. gather evidence in crimes and accidents.


That's in the poll.



You think that your job descriptions are fair? they are not!

Yes. Read them again.

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:30 PM
One of these is on the rear deck corner drivers side on all my cars

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/images/fop_star.gif (http://cantontruth.blogspot.com/2009/05/fraternal-order-of-police-exposed-as.html)

Ravens Fan
09-04-2014, 09:33 PM
You know cops do those things, too, right? You're being silly now. I put up items people have said on here already. They are non-inflammatory and you're taking it personal.

Where did I say: The job of cops is to beat black dudes up and kill them dead on streets? Nowhere.

I made legitimate questions, and you're taking this in illegitimate places.



I put the thing about drunks up there. As for EMT work, in my state that does not happen. They have medical personnel for that.



Then put that in a post that you think this should be their job. I don't know many EMTs that don't show up for pregnant women tho, and kids without a family soon find their parents in jail, and cops show up after the wives are beat, so...

but...that's cool that you think cops should do those things.



That's in the poll.



Yes. Read them again.

I agree. In my state the ONLY time the cops show up for a medical or fire call is for a domestic violence issue or traffic control. And for the record they are complete assholes to us when we have to close down a roadway to extract a patient.

Ravens Fan
09-04-2014, 09:34 PM
One of these is on the rear deck corner drivers side on all my cars

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/images/fop_star.gif (http://cantontruth.blogspot.com/2009/05/fraternal-order-of-police-exposed-as.html)

To get out of tickets?

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:35 PM
Where is this option?

http://www.danburymint.com/secure/Content/ImagesProducts/0b186bcf-48dc-4fbd-8c4c-58522eada041.jpg (http://www.danburymint.com/Jewelry/prod/749/Police-Ring---Serve-and-Protect_9034-0019.aspx)


Are you saying they don't serve and protect?

I say they are serving, they have taken a job of looking out for the citizenry by attempting to keep the streets safe from the criminal element, and doing the proactive community work I mentioned earlier.

To use Michael Brown as an example, he was escalating his crimes. He was graduating from petit crimes to a serious felony, captured on video. He needed to be arrested, taken off the streets, he was a threat to many. He lifted that store clerk right off the ground by his shirt collar. A man that big and aggressive is a threat to the peace of a community. So as a "peace officer" Wilson was doing his job, protecting the community from a huge aggressive felon. Brown's own actions escalated the use of force, as indicated on the chart I posted. Wilson served and protected and almost gave his life for doing that.

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:36 PM
... and I have the business card of The Illinois FOP President and Jessie White The Secretary of State

So if a Cop Fucks with me, they get a call the next morning. :wink:

That's why I can Drive a Corvette with NO front plate in Illinois :grin:

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:40 PM
To get out of tickets?


No to show Support ... i don't speed ... I don't drive drunk.

But I do have a really loud 1999 Magnetic Red Corvette and 1971 Blue Buick GSX :grin:

Insurance :wink: and respect

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 09:40 PM
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1556&d=1326785776

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTn2rf824tVoVJ-QfM1KJzFymHwxSoGAyw1U1edhvO81kjLxLDi


https://publicintelligence.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ISAF-FemaleEngagement.png

http://www.118ahc.org/Resources/RulesEngagmt--2.jpg


These are sent to war zones.

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:40 PM
One of these is on the rear deck corner drivers side on all my cars

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/images/fop_star.gif (http://cantontruth.blogspot.com/2009/05/fraternal-order-of-police-exposed-as.html)


Very nice. My hubby is the FOP vice president of our local chapter, and I was the president of the FOP spouse auxiliary for three years. Those emblems have a meaning. They shouldn't be used to get out of a ticket.

Ravens Fan
09-04-2014, 09:41 PM
No to show Support ... i don't speed ... I don't drive drunk.

But I do have a really loud 1999 Magnetic Red Corvette and 1971 Blue Buick GSX :grin:

Insurance :wink: and respect

Hey, I'll admit that I have fire dept tags, and they have helped out a few times. I have a bit of a lead foot. :wink:

Guerilla
09-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Ok but I would not put on there to uphold the constitution of the USA and protect the citizens of the country

I will put things on there like rape a women put a bullet in her head and then rape her 11 year old daughter?

That would be wrong. Officers are first responders, have to deliver emergency medical procedures. get the drunk off the road before he kills someone.

Drive the women in labor to the hospital because the EMT's are busy. help the child find his family. St0p the asshole form beating his children and wife.

And they have to get the bad guys off the street. gather evidence in crimes and accidents.

You think that your job descriptions are fair? they are not!

So your answer is that they are first responders. ok cool, I like that. Now lets look at the poll.

That means they are not allowed to apprehend criminals who have broken the law, they are not allowed to plan sting operations, they are not allowed to set up roadblocks, they can't arrest someone if the victim doesn't press charges (because if they don't press charges, then what are the first responders responding to.. right?), that means they can't check your house for unregistered guns...well it sounds like your definition of what a cop is as a "first responder" is actually really close to my definition. I marked box numbers 3, 8, and 10, I feel like those are good guidelines for first responders. What about you?


Ok but I would not put on there to uphold the constitution of the USA

BTW, you don't have to tell a cop to uphold the constitution, they are an American citizen, and apart of the government, it is implied.

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Are you saying they don't serve and protect?

I say they are serving, they have taken a job of looking out for the citizenry by attempting to keep the streets safe from the criminal element, and doing the proactive community work I mentioned earlier.

To use Michael Brown as an example, he was escalating his crimes. He was graduating from petit crimes to a serious felony, captured on video. He needed to be arrested, taken off the streets, he was a threat to many. He lifted that store clerk right off the ground by his shirt collar. A man that big and aggressive is a threat to the peace of a community. So as a "peace officer" Wilson was doing his job, protecting the community from a huge aggressive felon. Brown's own actions escalated the use of force, as indicated on the chart I posted. Wilson served and protected and almost gave his life for doing that.


No I didn't ... I just didn't see that option :laugh:

Matty
09-04-2014, 09:48 PM
Well, we are back to " arm chair quarterbacks make the very best cop." No decisions just criticism. Brave very brave that arm chair quarterback.

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:49 PM
To get out of tickets?


Won't work if you're really in the wrong

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:52 PM
I also have 3 jackets with this symbel on it ... :grin:

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/408/11010408/37990bb7-3b42-4f1d-b78a-de3980589fb3.jpg (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ySwQ4pmr2Z10wzozMPHsfw_3d_3d)

The Executive Director is a client :grin:

I pays to know people in high places :laugh:

del
09-04-2014, 09:52 PM
Very nice. My hubby is the FOP vice president of our local chapter, and I was the president of the FOP spouse auxiliary for three years. Those emblems have a meaning. They shouldn't be used to get out of a ticket.

what other possible use do they have?

Codename Section
09-04-2014, 09:52 PM
Well, we are back to " arm chair quarterbacks make the very best cop." No decisions just criticism. Brave very brave that arm chair quarterback.

I was policing for a time. No armchair quarterbacking here.

del
09-04-2014, 09:54 PM
the problem with cops is, no matter what the rules of engagement are, 90+% should be doing something else.

Cigar
09-04-2014, 09:56 PM
I was policing for a time. No armchair quarterbacking here.


You can't pay me enough to take a shot

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:57 PM
No I didn't ... I just didn't see that option :laugh:

cool.:smiley:

Redrose
09-04-2014, 09:59 PM
what other possible use do they have?


To show support for your local police agencies. (If it helps with a ticket.....great!!!!!!)

Cigar
09-04-2014, 10:02 PM
To show support for your local police agencies. (If it helps with a ticket.....great!!!!!!)


My Local Cops look soo stupid ...

They have soo much shit strapped to their belts I have no idea how the keep their pants up and I know for sure they can't run for 10 feet. :laugh:

Ravens Fan
09-04-2014, 10:04 PM
Won't work if you're really in the wrong

Depends on the situation. I wasn't insulting you tho, just being a smart ass. :smiley:

Redrose
09-04-2014, 11:28 PM
My Local Cops look soo stupid ...

They have soo much shit strapped to their belts I have no idea how the keep their pants up and I know for sure they can't run for 10 feet. :laugh:

It does weigh a ton, but don't underestimate the ones in shape, they can run. Most departments have a physical standard for a healthy weight. My husband is 6'2" and before he retired and working the road he was about 225/230 and solid muscle. When he made rank and was behind a desk the last few years he gained a few pounds.

All that hardware around their waists causes kidney trouble for some. It's uncomfortable.

Animal Mother
09-05-2014, 08:58 AM
The best answer is to protect and to serve the community. It is not on the poll the answer on the poll are insulting at best

It's insulting? Then you got pretty thin skinned over the years, J.


Yes, you were one of my instructors. Brad Pitt looking kid who got into a fight with the Navy corpsman.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCNeJmLAsBo