'Humans are turning the Earth into a 'lonely and very dangerous planet'

[Chloe]

Steve Connor

Humans are turning the world into a “lonely planet” depleted of its rich biodiversity, and there could soon come a point when the mass extinction of species turns into an irreversible spiral of decline, according to a leading ecologist.

Professor Ed Wilson, an authority on biodiversity at Harvard University, said that the extinction rate of species is running at between 100 and 1,000 times higher than in pre-human times and that we are on course to lose half of all animals and plants by the end of the century.
“We’re making a lonely planet. More than that, if we continue to destroy the biosphere it becomes a very dangerous planet,” professor Wilson told i on a recent visit to Britain.
“If you wiped out enough species, all of those say in South America, then that may be a tipping point where you get enough changes globally to begin a downward spiral,” professor Wilson said.
“A tipping point will come, but we don’t know when. However, the important thing is that it will come, and maybe sooner than we thought if we continue to destroy the natural habitat, and in particular the species,” he said.
“You can rehabilitate a damaged habitat to some extent, but you can’t do that if you have gotten rid of species. We would lose them forever, and I think that would be a tipping point in human existence,” he added.


During his visit to the UK, professor Wilson, 85, broke the ground on a £30m construction project on the Isle of Portland on the south coast of England to commemorate the 460 species that are known to have gone extinct in the past 500 years, from the dodo to the Tasmanian devil.
The Mass Extinction Monitoring Observatory will be built from the Portland limestone of the Jurassic Coast, which was used extensively in re-building St Paul’s Cathedral after the Great Fire of London.
“We need a transcendent moral decision to stop species extinction, and that should be made to include the stopping of the destruction of the biosphere,” professor Wilson told i.
Professor Wilson has spent a lifetime studying the biodiversity of rainforests and other wild habitats.

Humans are turning the Earth into a 'lonely and very dangerous planet', ecologist warns - Science - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/humans-are-turning-the-earth-into-a-lonely-and-very-dangerous-planet-ecologist-warns-9851146.html)

[Peter1469]

I don't know Chloe.

We should focus on Mars.

[Chloe]

I don't know Chloe.

We should focus on Mars.

Mars? Why?

[Peter1469]

Mars? Why?

It is our future. :smiley:

[Blackrook]

Well, the problem with all this is when you scrape the surface, the people most active with environmentalism are either Communists or extremists who want to kill off most of the human race.

[Chloe]

Well, the problem with all this is when you scrape the surface, the people most active with environmentalism are either Communists or extremists who want to kill off most of the human race.

So you think that's a bigger problem than what the article is actually talking about? Political extremists are more dangerous than human activity as a whole towards the planet because they talk about human depopulation?

[pjohns]

So you think that's a bigger problem than what the article is actually talking about? Political extremists are more dangerous than human activity as a whole towards the planet because they talk about human depopulation?

In a word: Yes.

I quite emphatically believe that those who speak glibly of "human depopulation" (which is a mere euphemism for killing off the majority of the world's people) are, indeed, more dangerous than "human activity...toward the planet" is...

[Ethereal]

Human population is much more fun than depopulation, I've found.

[Blackrook]

I am old enough to remember how bad pollution used to be in the 1970's, so I know that much has improved, and things are getting better every year. We are not heading towards catastrophe. I know it's much more fun to panic that the sky is falling, but it does not reflect reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Improving_State_of_the_World

[Animal Mother]

Surprise! An environmental scientist whose job is dependent upon there being a problem with the environment finds that there is a huge problem with the environment.

What's next, a lawyer who thinks we need more laws?

[Blackrook]

Surprise! An environmental scientist whose job is dependent upon there being a problem with the environment finds that there is a huge problem with the environment.

What's next, a lawyer who thinks we need more laws?
Follow the money.

http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/22240-profiteers-are-lining-up-to-make-money-off-global-warming

[Captain Obvious]

Well, the problem with all this is when you scrape the surface, the people most active with environmentalism are either Communists or extremists who want to kill off most of the human race.

:biglaugh:

Finished digging that hole in your back yard yet?

[Philly Rabbit]

Population control has always been a big mantra for the left. The less people there are, the better for mother Earth is how they justify it. (I refer back to another post that I was thread banned on for speaking the truth about how environmentalism has become a religion for the earth worshipers.) This is a farce of political expediency and a mask for the practice of international abortion along with the subjugation of free enterprise.

Population control IE abortion and sterilization, do no more to help the environment than they do to reduce poverty. The only race of people on earth that is reducing it's numbers toward eventual extinction through it's own global death culture of birth control, abortion, and sterilization is the white European Anglo race in fact while other races continue to grow their numbers.

[PolWatch]

I am old enough to remember how bad pollution used to be in the 1970's, so I know that much has improved, and things are getting better every year. We are not heading towards catastrophe. I know it's much more fun to panic that the sky is falling, but it does not reflect reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Improving_State_of_the_World

good point. We don't hear of rivers bursting into flames now. Amazing how the earth corrected those problems by itself. Man just continued on the same path and did nothing to correct the mess.

Where would we be now if those environmental nuts for hire had not voiced alarm and pushed for change? How many rivers would be nothing but sewer drains or chemical run off containers?

The point you brought up proves that mankind has to become involved in correcting his errors.

[Captain Obvious]

good point. We don't hear of rivers bursting into flames now. Amazing how the earth corrected those problems by itself. Man just continued on the same path and did nothing to correct the mess.

Where would we be now if those environmental nuts for hire had not voiced alarm and pushed for change? How many rivers would be nothing but sewer drains or chemical run off containers?

The point you brought up proves that mankind has to become involved in correcting his errors.

Just don't eat more than 2 servings of fish a week because of the mercury levels.

Yeah, whole lot better.

[PolWatch]

Just don't eat more than 2 servings of fish a week because of the mercury levels.

Yeah, whole lot better.

we shoulda left it alone...then the fish would have come outta the water pre-cooked!

[MrJimmyDale]

Just don't eat more than 2 servings of fish a week because of the mercury levels. Yeah, whole lot better. That GMO corn will kill us first.........No wait, ISIS will kill us first......no wait, ebola will kill us first........

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!

[Chloe]

I am old enough to remember how bad pollution used to be in the 1970's, so I know that much has improved, and things are getting better every year. We are not heading towards catastrophe. I know it's much more fun to panic that the sky is falling, but it does not reflect reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Improving_State_of_the_World

This is not about simple pollution, it's about habitat destruction and the alarming decrease of biodiversity on the planet due to human activity. The link you provided talks about how life has improved for the human race, which is at the expense of thousands to millions of other species. Biodiversity is the topic.

[Chloe]

Population control has always been a big mantra for the left. The less people there are, the better for mother Earth is how they justify it. (I refer back to another post that I was thread banned on for speaking the truth about how environmentalism has become a religion for the earth worshipers.) This is a farce of political expediency and a mask for the practice of international abortion along with the subjugation of free enterprise.

Population control IE abortion and sterilization, do no more to help the environment than they do to reduce poverty. The only race of people on earth that is reducing it's numbers toward eventual extinction through it's own global death culture of birth control, abortion, and sterilization is the white European Anglo race in fact while other races continue to grow their numbers.

Population control is not what the topic is about. Activity control would be the better term in my opinion. If we are the root cause of the extreme decrease of biodiversity on this planet then we as a species must change the way we interact with the planet. If we do not, and if we continue to live only for our species, then we will pay the price one day. Please reread or the opening post.

[Chloe]

Surprise! An environmental scientist whose job is dependent upon there being a problem with the environment finds that there is a huge problem with the environment.

What's next, a lawyer who thinks we need more laws?

I graduate in the spring with a degree in environmental science and I can tell you that it's not about money for me and for many many people that go into that field. It's about better understanding the interactions between species, how those interactions affect the planet, and how to improve life on Earth for ALL life. That's why i'm studying it.

[decedent]

God created a perfect world. It's not up to us to play God and stop species extinction -- which is cruel because it's like keeping Granny on a respirator.

[Chloe]

God created a perfect world. It's not up to us to play God and stop species extinction -- which is cruel because it's like keeping Granny on a respirator.

I'll play along for a second....so we can play god when it comes to killing off species but we can't play god when it comes to stopping the extinction of species at our hands?

[decedent]

No. It's only playing God when we intervene with His divine wish to prevent extinction. I thought you libs believed in evolution and extinction.

[Chloe]

No. It's only playing God when we intervene with His divine wish to prevent extinction. I thought you libs believed in evolution and extinction.

That makes no sense, sorry.

I believe that evolution and extinction exist, sure, that's two obvious things because both have happened and are happening, however, the topic is about human activity diminishing biodiversity on this planet at an alarming rate which will ultimately harm our own species. Do you have any opinion on that or to you is it just all part of God's plan? Granted I know that you are basing your answers off of the persona you are trying to have on here right now but I'd like to hear you phony answer please.

[decedent]

That makes no sense, sorry.

I believe that evolution and extinction exist, sure, that's two obvious things because both have happened and are happening, however, the topic is about human activity diminishing biodiversity on this planet at an alarming rate which will ultimately harm our own species. Do you have any opinion on that or to you is it just all part of God's plan? Granted I know that you are basing your answers off of the persona you are trying to have on here right now but I'd like to here you phony answer please.

How does an iguana in Mexico dying of global warming affect me in Texas? They're two different countries. That's liberal logic for you!

[Chloe]

How does an iguana in Mexico dying of global warming affect me in Texas? They're two different countries. That's liberal logic for you!

Yeah see i'm not here to pretend to be something or someone that i'm not, so either discuss the topic intelligently and sincerely or leave. This thread is for serious discussion.

[nathanbforrest45]

I quit reading Mother Earth News when they started speaking of "Lets face it the problem is too many people".

[Chloe]

good point. We don't hear of rivers bursting into flames now. Amazing how the earth corrected those problems by itself. Man just continued on the same path and did nothing to correct the mess.

Where would we be now if those environmental nuts for hire had not voiced alarm and pushed for change? How many rivers would be nothing but sewer drains or chemical run off containers?

The point you brought up proves that mankind has to become involved in correcting his errors.

Thank you. So many people love to rip on environmentalists and activists but yet it's usually those people that raise the alarm and initiate good change.

[Chloe]

I quit reading Mother Earth News when they started speaking of "Lets face it the problem is too many people".

Yes, the human population is large and continuously growing which is a danger to our species and to millions of other species, but that's not really the topic at the moment. Maybe I should create a thread about the human population??? Oh yeah, lol, I did and it typically becomes an abortion topic after about three posts.

[Peter1469]

Population control for me is colonizing the moon and Mars. And then beyond. :smiley:

[PolWatch]

Yes, the human population is large and continuously growing which is a danger to our species and to millions of other species, but that's not really the topic at the moment. Maybe I should create a thread about the human population??? Oh yeah, lol, I did and it typically becomes an abortion topic after about three posts.

don't they ALL?

[Alyosha]

I graduate in the spring with a degree in environmental science and I can tell you that it's not about money for me and for many many people that go into that field. It's about better understanding the interactions between species, how those interactions affect the planet, and how to improve life on Earth for ALL life. That's why i'm studying it.

So you'll be working for no pay? The scientist doesn't require grants and isn't paid by the university?

Research begins with funding. Your protocol or thesis will stay in your head without funders. When you work for a department your protocol generally matches that of the department's leanings or persuasion. I'm not at all saying that this person is incorrect, only that there is money involved.

Someone who is a biodiversity specialist would get zero funding if he or she said everything was just fine.

That said, I believe that we are rapidly (maybe not to that rate) changing the biodiversity of the world. Regulations won't help because they are a punish after mechanism. What you and others should do is work on buying plots of land and giving it over to nature.

If regulations worked we wouldn't have polluters. It wasn't regulations which caused the greatest change but people. Commercials of crying native Americans, that owl guy talking to kids, animal planet and other shows made people care about the environment and the creatures on it to the point where people are willing to boycott one company and buy from another.

Moreover, changes in technology and advancements have also led the charge for many industries. Polluting stopped being profitable.

Regulations are there to punish the small polluters and let the big ones go free. It takes literally a decade in the courts to get any money out of these companies and they know it.

Sorry, I'm agitated...everyone back to what you were doing.

[Alyosha]

Thank you. So many people love to rip on environmentalists and activists but yet it's usually those people that raise the alarm and initiate good change.

I think that passionate people are necessary in all areas to lead the charge to change. I think passionate people have tunnel vision. I am no different in this.

The problem with tunnel vision is that it does not incorporate the "how" into the "what".

You, my dear, live in a legalistic world of lawyers. Every corporation has lawyers that will read the laws and find ways around them. Every corporation will send someone to Washington to speak to your Senator or Congressperson and help craft the "environmental" legislation.

Carbon credits? Legal trickery.

Protected species list? Read the fine print.

Change won't come from law because there are a million people just like me who will be paid huge amounts of money to weasel around it.

Change will come from making people care about biodiversity and that takes doing things that you find loathsome. Shamu did more to make kids care about killer whales than all the documentaries in the world. Seeing something up close makes you love it and want to protect it. It means you being less severe and more engaging on your subject matter. There are times when you set an adversarial tone on these topics which is fine for people who think or lean in your direction but won't move a fence sitter, and it's in the fence sitters that you find your most support because they tip the scales.

I know that I am a buzzkill to the college student. Once upon a time I was a true believer like yourself and some might even have called me "nice" once upon a time. The earth is at a tipping point and we do need to save these creatures who share it with us. That means we have to be practical, as well as, being idealistic. That means being consistent and not leaving holes of hypocrisy. That means hearing the arguments of others and ingesting them somewhat.

You want Catholics (known to be proactive) to care about mice and butterflies? Care about abortion, or acknowledge their arguments on life. You want men who hunt to avoid big game trips to Africa, acknowledge some aspects of hunting as not being detrimental to the earth. You cannot be strident and intractable and still invite people to the table.

There's my lecture for the day. Forgive me if I seem too harsh. I've had a shit couple of days, lemme tall ya.

[Green Arrow]

Seeing and touching red pandas up close made me appreciate just what we share this world with. Yes, the fact that red pandas are the most gentle and adorable creatures on the planet helps with that, but it makes me want to protect the not-so-gentle-and-adorable ones, too.

Can't say if I'd feel the same way without getting to see them up close in my own backyard.

[Alyosha]

Seeing and touching red pandas up close made me appreciate just what we share this world with. Yes, the fact that red pandas are the most gentle and adorable creatures on the planet helps with that, but it makes me want to protect the not-so-gentle-and-adorable ones, too.

Can't say if I'd feel the same way without getting to see them up close in my own backyard.

The first time I went to a zoo I saw a very sad looking gorilla sitting. I knew he wanted to be free. I knew he remembered trees and a life that wasn't surrounded by concrete. I started donating to wild mountain gorilla protection groups that purchased land for preserves after that. I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

That poor gorilla's life probably saved hundreds more gorillas.

I would also be willing to sit with guns and shoot poachers, but that's another story...

[Green Arrow]

The first time I went to a zoo I saw a very sad looking gorilla sitting. I knew he wanted to be free. I knew he remembered trees and a life that wasn't surrounded by concrete. I started donating to wild mountain gorilla protection groups that purchased land for preserves after that. I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

That poor gorilla's life probably saved hundreds more gorillas.

I would also be willing to sit with guns and shoot poachers, but that's another story...

I'd be there with you. We could have a Legolas-Gimli contest with it :tongue:

[Alyosha]

I'd be there with you. We could have a Legolas-Gimli contest with it :tongue:

I have far more respect for Greenpeace than the Sierra Club. You want to stop whaling, go HAM.

[nic34]

Population control for me is colonizing the moon and Mars. And then beyond. :smiley:

That's not control, it's sprawl....

[decedent]

Yeah see i'm not here to pretend to be something or someone that i'm not, so either discuss the topic intelligently and sincerely or leave. This thread is for serious discussion.

You doubt my intellectuality?

[Chloe]

You doubt my intellectuality?

Post on the topic in a legitimate way or go please. The persona you are portraying is transparent and it's not something i'm going to debate against because it's phony. I don't doubt your intellect yet because you haven't shown that you sincerely have one yet. Instead you are playing a character.

[Green Arrow]

That's not control, it's sprawl....

Yes, we're all well aware that you oppose progress out among the stars.

[nic34]

Yes, we're all well aware that you oppose progress out among the stars.

You assume that a humanity that consumes, destroys and supplants everything, everywhere it goes, deserves to "progress out among the stars."


Thankfully we are at least decades from taking our petty warlike prejudices and pollution into the cosmos.

[Green Arrow]

You assume that a humanity that consumes, destroys and supplants everything, everywhere it goes, deserves to "progress out among the stars."


Thankfully we are at least decades from taking our petty warlike prejudices and pollution into the cosmos.

I assume nothing. I simply believe humanity can be better, and spreading out across the disparate planets and solar systems of our universe is the natural course of our evolution.

[Philly Rabbit]

Population control is not what the topic is about. Activity control would be the better term in my opinion. If we are the root cause of the extreme decrease of biodiversity on this planet then we as a species must change the way we interact with the planet. If we do not, and if we continue to live only for our species, then we will pay the price one day. Please reread or the opening post.

As I already stated, the only way the left believes that in order to reduce pollution on the planet is to reduce the population and reduce free enterprise. It's a two headed solution.

[Peter1469]

I graduate in the spring with a degree in environmental science and I can tell you that it's not about money for me and for many many people that go into that field. It's about better understanding the interactions between species, how those interactions affect the planet, and how to improve life on Earth for ALL life. That's why i'm studying it. A 4 year degree?

[Peter1469]

You assume that a humanity that consumes, destroys and supplants everything, everywhere it goes, deserves to "progress out among the stars."


Thankfully we are at least decades from taking our petty warlike prejudices and pollution into the cosmos.

Humans are going to the stars regardless of what the Luddites think.

[Safety]

I am old enough to remember how bad pollution used to be in the 1970's, so I know that much has improved, and things are getting better every year. We are not heading towards catastrophe. I know it's much more fun to panic that the sky is falling, but it does not reflect reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Improving_State_of_the_World


Oh yea? Remember the shitfest from Ebola, Ebola, Ebola?

[Chloe]

A 4 year degree?

Yes my bachelors

[Alyosha]

You will need a masters to use your degree if you intend to have a job instead of just volunteering. This isn't a good economy for "soft" fields. Maybe bioengineering?

[nic34]

Humans are going to the stars regardless of what the Luddites think.

No doubt, hopefully the non-Luddite ones....

[Peter1469]

Yes my bachelors

OMG that is fast. I thought that you just started......

I am very proud of you!

[Peter1469]

No doubt, hopefully the non-Luddite ones....


If you make the Luddites work in the mines, they will be fine.

[Dark Mistress]

A lot of kids can now graduate HS with their associates degrees although I don't think that Chloe did that.

I wanted to start on college as a sophomore, but my parents wouldn't allow me to move away and attend school elsewhere...grrr. J/k

A few of my cousins in UT attend the community college in conjuction with their h.s. studies and get their associates when they graduate. I think it's great. They have no life, but they are that much further ahead.

[Chloe]

You will need a masters to use your degree if you intend to have a job instead of just volunteering. This isn't a good economy for "soft" fields. Maybe bioengineering?

Im 50/50 right now on getting my masters. Other than my sister who is still in high school all of my brothers have masters and one is getting his doctorate, so the pressure is there. I won't work for free obviously but all I really want to do is give Eco tours. I fell in love with wanting that type of job when we vacationed in Whistler BC and I did a variety of Eco tours and picked the guides brains.

[Chloe]

OMG that is fast. I thought that you just started......

I am very proud of you!

Nope. I turn 21 in a couple of weeks and I was taking some college level courses when I was a senior, plus a couple of short sessions in between terms so that I could finish a little sooner. It's why I'm always stressed I guess because I never really gave myself a break.

[Peter1469]

Nope. I turn 21 in a couple of weeks and I was taking some college level courses when I was a senior, plus a couple of short sessions in between terms so that I could finish a little sooner. It's why I'm always stressed I guess because I never really gave myself a break.

No wonder you have been stressed out. I did college in 4 easy years living off the Army college fund. All the cool co-eds hung out at my apartment.

[Bob]

During his visit to the UK, professor Wilson, 85, broke the ground on a £30m construction project on the Isle of Portland on the south coast of England to commemorate the 460 species that are known to have gone extinct in the past 500 years, from the dodo to the Tasmanian devil.

The Tasmanian Devil is alive and doing very well. Funny that it was over the weekend I learned of the project to breed them and keep them wild.

The Tasmanian Tiger appears to have vanished.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk-du0aIw1s

[Chloe]

As I already stated, the only way the left believes that in order to reduce pollution on the planet is to reduce the population and reduce free enterprise. It's a two headed solution.

Well at the human race's current pace and way of living we would need to reduce the population in order to avoid mass starvation and issues. If you want the world to keep producing human beings then I guess we need to do a better job of taking care of the planet. One way of doing that is by not eliminating biodiversity. Agree?

[Blackrook]

Any talk of population reduction drives me and anyone else who is pro-human life away from environmentalism. What I picture in my head is forced abortion, forced sterilization, and people rounded up and exterminated in death camps.

If you truly care about saving the environment, tell your fellow environmentalists to not even raise this topic.

[Chloe]

Any talk of population reduction drives me and anyone else who is pro-human life away from environmentalism. What I picture in my head is forced abortion, forced sterilization, and people rounded up and exterminated in death camps.

If you truly care about saving the environment, tell your fellow environmentalists to not even raise this topic.

Then i'm sorry but you only are capable of seeing things in their most extreme form. I personally think human reproduction needs to slow, but that certainly does not mean I, nor many many others like me, am advocating for forced abortions or murder. Come on.

[Chloe]

I think that passionate people are necessary in all areas to lead the charge to change. I think passionate people have tunnel vision. I am no different in this.

The problem with tunnel vision is that it does not incorporate the "how" into the "what".

You, my dear, live in a legalistic world of lawyers. Every corporation has lawyers that will read the laws and find ways around them. Every corporation will send someone to Washington to speak to your Senator or Congressperson and help craft the "environmental" legislation.

Carbon credits? Legal trickery.

Protected species list? Read the fine print.

Change won't come from law because there are a million people just like me who will be paid huge amounts of money to weasel around it.

Change will come from making people care about biodiversity and that takes doing things that you find loathsome. Shamu did more to make kids care about killer whales than all the documentaries in the world. Seeing something up close makes you love it and want to protect it. It means you being less severe and more engaging on your subject matter. There are times when you set an adversarial tone on these topics which is fine for people who think or lean in your direction but won't move a fence sitter, and it's in the fence sitters that you find your most support because they tip the scales.

I know that I am a buzzkill to the college student. Once upon a time I was a true believer like yourself and some might even have called me "nice" once upon a time. The earth is at a tipping point and we do need to save these creatures who share it with us. That means we have to be practical, as well as, being idealistic. That means being consistent and not leaving holes of hypocrisy. That means hearing the arguments of others and ingesting them somewhat.

You want Catholics (known to be proactive) to care about mice and butterflies? Care about abortion, or acknowledge their arguments on life. You want men who hunt to avoid big game trips to Africa, acknowledge some aspects of hunting as not being detrimental to the earth. You cannot be strident and intractable and still invite people to the table.

There's my lecture for the day. Forgive me if I seem too harsh. I've had a shit couple of days, lemme tall ya.

I believe though that I do care about abortion and I do acknowledge other people's arguments on life, but that doesn't mean that I need to completely agree with them or change my point of view and sacrifice my own beliefs just to satisfy someone else enough to get them to support my unrelated causes. As for hunting i'm pretty sure that i've acknowledged before that in the case of real survival it would be natural to have to do what is necessary to survive.

[Alyosha]

I believe though that I do care about abortion and I do acknowledge other people's arguments on life, but that doesn't mean that I need to completely agree with them or change my point of view and sacrifice my own beliefs just to satisfy someone else enough to get them to support my unrelated causes. As for hunting i'm pretty sure that i've acknowledged before that in the case of real survival it would be natural to have to do what is necessary to survive.

You don't need to agree with people. You need to make them feel heard. It's the "how" of the interaction. There is an excellent book by the Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard, Concluding Unscientific Postscripts which details that the how and who of the conversation directly effects how much of the position people will accept.

Your thread on abortion and the environment began with a statement, not an invitation. I'm a strident person, so I make statements often because I don't care who agrees with me. You want people to agree, to care, and to care so much that they will do something about it. Studies have shown that people are more apt to react when angry than when happy, so to engender compassion you must work twice as hard to get people to not only care enough to post on a message board but to want to go out there spend money on land, fight whalers, etc.

[pjohns]

The link you provided talks about how life has improved for the human race, which is at the expense of thousands to millions of other species.

This is the mantra of those who believe that it is a sin against nature--"speciesism" is the term they have coined for it--to prefer the well-being of humans to the well-being of the lower animals.

PETA would surely endorse this radical, postmodern view...

[Green Arrow]

This is the mantra of those who believe that it is a sin against nature--"speciesism" is the term they have coined for it--to prefer the well-being of humans to the well-being of the lower animals.

PETA would surely endorse this radical, postmodern view...

Did Chloe say she valued animals over people? I must have missed it.

[Chloe]

This is the mantra of those who believe that it is a sin against nature--"speciesism" is the term they have coined for it--to prefer the well-being of humans to the well-being of the lower animals.

PETA would surely endorse this radical, postmodern view...

Humans are no better or worse than other species. We are all living beings on this planet that we share and we are all interdependent even if our ego blinds us sometimes to that fact.

[decedent]

Humans are no better or worse than other species.

Except humans aren't animals. (We're humans).

[Mister D]

Humans are no better or worse than other species. We are all living beings on this planet that we share and we are all interdependent even if our ego blinds us sometimes to that fact.

I, for one, find that sentiment chilling.

[Alyosha]

Humans are no better or worse than other species. We are all living beings on this planet that we share and we are all interdependent even if our ego blinds us sometimes to that fact.

From a shamanistic perspective we are all equal kinsmen, but if you are Buddhist or even Hasidic (do you read the Zohar?) you are a reincarnated soul who worked his or her way up the chain.

[Chloe]

Except humans aren't animals. (We're humans).

humans are a species of mammal

[Chloe]

I, for one, find that sentiment chilling.

Why? How does that affect you as a person?

[Chloe]

From a shamanistic perspective we are all equal kinsmen, but if you are Buddhist or even Hasidic (do you read the Zohar?) you are a reincarnated soul who worked his or her way up the chain.

No sorry I don't read the zohar.

[pjohns]

Well at the human race's current pace and way of living we would need to reduce the population in order to avoid mass starvation and issues.

That sounds positively Malthusian...

[Chloe]

That sounds positively Malthusian...

yes

[Mister D]

Why? How does that affect you as a person?

Your misguided attitudes don't affect me personally at all. I'd like to keep it that way. I've said this many times to you and I'll say it again: when we try to raise animals to the level of human beings we're more likely to lower human beings to the level of animals. I want no part of that.

[Alyosha]

It also sounds scary and is the type of rhetoric I was speaking of earlier that loses people. You need to learn to say the same thing without sounding like you would cheer a mass die out of humans. People are tribal and "special" for the most part and get turned off easily to people who don't place their own kind (human life) above others.

Laws won't get you where you want to go. Buying up land for habitats will and you can't get people to donate money, real money unless they like you.

I probably said this the wrong way, but I am literal.

[Alyosha]

Your misguided attitudes don't affect me personally at all. I'd like to keep it that way. I've said this many times to you and I'll say it again: when we try to raise animals to the level of human beings we're more likely to lower human beings to the level of animals. I want no part of that.

Well said, Sir. Well said.

[pjohns]

Humans are no better or worse than other species.

In other words, humans are not actually created in the image of God; it is more like the PETA folks claim, in their famous (or infamous) formulation: "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy"...

[Captain Obvious]

In other words, humans are not actually created in the image of God; it is more like the PETA folks claim, in their famous (or infamous) formulation: "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy"...

Considering this is purely a non-religious subject discussing biological similarities - yes.

Most people grasp that concept fairly easily.

[Chloe]

In other words, humans are not actually created in the image of God; it is more like the PETA folks claim, in their famous (or infamous) formulation: "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy"...

Considering we don't know what God's image actually is I think we can push that issue aside for the moment and save it for a discussion on religious beliefs. As for the rest, all species are dependent on the other, including our species, and to say that our species is more vital and important than the millions of others is all ego.

[PolWatch]

Considering we don't know what God's image actually is I think we can push that issue aside for the moment and save it for a discussion on religious beliefs. As for the rest, all species are dependent on the other, including our species, and to say that our species is more vital and important than the millions of others is all ego.

ah, but you are ignoring two of the basic laws of being human!

1. I am, therefore I buy

2. He with the most toys, wins!

:rollseyes:

[Safety]

ah, but you are ignoring two of the basic laws of being human!

1. I am, therefore I buy

2. He with the most toys, wins!

:rollseyes:

Speaking of which, you and silvereyes going to camp out with me on Black Friday? Best Buy is going to be my spot, need a couple more tv's...

[decedent]

humans are a species of mammal

Can animals count or use tools? I don't think so.

The Bible says that humans have dominion over animals. Animals don't know how to take care of themselves. It's why we had to save their asses during the flood.

[Chloe]

Can animals count or use tools? I don't think so.

The Bible says that humans have dominion over animals. Animals don't know how to take care of themselves. It's why we had to save their asses during the flood.

Ok first off if the Noah story is true we humans had nothing at all to do with them being saved from the flood. It would have been God, and if God saved them then perhaps you should hold more respect for them, right?

Religious beliefs aside, since this is not a topic about religion, many animals can exhibit problem solving skills. Just because a bear can't build a plane doesn't make it a lesser species. By that rationale we are an incredibly weak species because we can barely even catch a chicken in a coop whereas other animals would have no problem. You can't compare man-made objects that are only meant to benefit humans to what other animals do for the natural world.

[Captain Obvious]

Can animals count or use tools? I don't think so.



Actually some species of monkeys can do both.

Unfortunately none of them work in the US Treasury.

[Green Arrow]

I don't see the issue with what Chloe said. One can accept the scientific fact that humans are basically just another species of animal (specifically mammals) and still elevate the human species above all others. In fact, evolutionarily speaking, we are absolutely above all other species.

[PolWatch]

Speaking of which, you and @silvereyes (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1218) going to camp out with me on Black Friday? Best Buy is going to be my spot, need a couple more tv's...

no way! I will think of y'all as I sit in my cozy kitchen, drinking hot coffee. I tried Black Friday shopping one time about 30 years ago...short of buying a new Time Machine (since Animal sold his to Aly), they have nothing I want!

[Bob]

Considering we don't know what God's image actually is I think we can push that issue aside for the moment and save it for a discussion on religious beliefs. As for the rest, all species are dependent on the other, including our species, and to say that our species is more vital and important than the millions of others is all ego.

What do you think Chloe, the odds are of GOD having the features of something like an Elephant, a Whale or Fox? Doesn't it make sense GOD created the most vital animal to appear as a Human?

[Chloe]

What do you think @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), the odds are of GOD having the features of something like an Elephant, a Whale or Fox? Doesn't it make sense GOD created the most vital animal to appear as a Human?

God could look like anything. To think he/she/it looks like us only helps to inflate our ego and concrete our belief that we somehow own this planet. I don't believe that God has any real form or shape. I also do not believe that we are the most "vital" animal. What makes us the most vital in your opinion? Because we can drive a car? Because we can grind a bean into coffee? Because we can DVR?

[Peter1469]

God is an energy being. That is what humans are evolving towards. In his image.

[Chloe]

God is an energy being. That is what humans are evolving towards. In his image.

No, this is what humans are evolving into

9559

[Green Arrow]

What do you think @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), the odds are of GOD having the features of something like an Elephant, a Whale or Fox? Doesn't it make sense GOD created the most vital animal to appear as a Human?

The "image" of God refers to his spirit, not physical attributes.

[Bob]

Ok first off if the Noah story is true we humans had nothing at all to do with them being saved from the flood. It would have been God, and if God saved them then perhaps you should hold more respect for them, right?

Religious beliefs aside, since this is not a topic about religion, many animals can exhibit problem solving skills. Just because a bear can't build a plane doesn't make it a lesser species. By that rationale we are an incredibly weak species because we can barely even catch a chicken in a coop whereas other animals would have no problem. You can't compare man-made objects that are only meant to benefit humans to what other animals do for the natural world.

Well, as a human representative, you sure don't mind putting down humans.

[Bob]

The "image" of God refers to his spirit, not physical attributes.

Thanks Chloe.

[Chloe]

Well, as a human representative, you sure don't mind putting down humans.

I'm not putting them down I am simply pointing out the fact that we are not a perfect species and that we are slowly but surely damaging biodiversity on this planet which will also be to our own detriment unless we wake up.

[Bob]

God is an energy being. That is what humans are evolving towards. In his image.

I have previously on other forums described GOD as the most awesome power. I believe you get it.

[Bob]

I'm not putting them down I am simply pointing out the fact that we are not a perfect species and that we are slowly but surely damaging biodiversity on this planet which will also be to our own detriment unless we wake up.

You proved my point.

[Chloe]

You proved my point.

So unless I praise all aspects of humanity and unless I deem our species the best without question and that we can do no harm, I am putting down humans?

[Bob]

God could look like anything. To think he/she/it looks like us only helps to inflate our ego and concrete our belief that we somehow own this planet. I don't believe that God has any real form or shape. I also do not believe that we are the most "vital" animal. What makes us the most vital in your opinion? Because we can drive a car? Because we can grind a bean into coffee? Because we can DVR?

The most likely explanation is we resemble GOD. We are the most vital animal. We must control the entire planet for you to blame humans for things gone wrong. Some day I hope you join me in praising humans for adventures promoted by humans who do educate our progeny in the sciences and finer arts. Things Whales never do nor will do.

[Green Arrow]

Thanks Chloe.

You're welcome, Cigar.

[Bob]

So unless I praise all aspects of humanity and unless I deem our species the best without question and that we can do no harm, I am putting down humans?

That took just a few posts for you to get it.

[Chloe]

The most likely explanation is we resemble GOD. We are the most vital animal. We must control the entire planet for you to blame humans for things gone wrong. Some day I hope you join me in praising humans for adventures promoted by humans who do educate our progeny in the sciences and finer arts. Things Whales never do nor will do.

Why would a whale need to educate other whales about art? Why would a black bear need to teach chemistry to its cubs? Just because we do those things does not make us more vital to the EARTH. It only makes us feel more vital because its our own species doing it for OUR species. If we truly wanted to do the right thing as a species we'd notice our impact on the biodiversity on this planet that we share and make changes so that we aren't only in it for ourselves.

[silvereyes]

Speaking of which, you and silvereyes going to camp out with me on Black Friday? Best Buy is going to be my spot, need a couple more tv's...
Nope. Ill be the one driving by you popsicles waving at yall freezing yo asses off. :)

[PolWatch]

Whales can teach their young to travel thousands of miles to the place of their birth, without a map or GPS. Can man do that? Animals survive & thrive using what they were created with...they are completely natural, as God meant them to be. Man is the unnatural creature. We cannot survive naturally...we had to create artificial ways to survive. Which creature is living the closest to God's plan for them?

[silvereyes]

Can animals count or use tools? I don't think so.

The Bible says that humans have dominion over animals. Animals don't know how to take care of themselves. It's why we had to save their asses during the flood.
Dont know much about animals, do you? Yes, some do use tools.

[Alyosha]

Whales can teach their young to travel thousands of miles to the place of their birth, without a map or GPS. Can man do that? Animals survive & thrive using what they were created with...they are completely natural, as God meant them to be. Man is the unnatural creature. We cannot survive naturally...we had to create artificial ways to survive. Which creature is living the closest to God's plan for them?

On shrooms I flew to my girlfriends house, watched her play Xbox and noted what she was wearing. The next day I asked her about it and she told me she played Xbox (same game) and was wearing the outfit I saw.

[Bob]

Dont know much about animals, do you? Yes, some do use tools.

So did man eons ago.

[Bob]

Whales can teach their young to travel thousands of miles to the place of their birth, without a map or GPS. Can man do that? Animals survive & thrive using what they were created with...they are completely natural, as God meant them to be. Man is the unnatural creature. We cannot survive naturally...we had to create artificial ways to survive. Which creature is living the closest to God's plan for them?

Let's see, I flew to Germany with no map nor GPS on an aircraft piloted by a human. I managed to drive up the side of Mt. Shasta and found my way back home with no map with me.

Not sure why we have posters not a bit proud to be human beings.

[silvereyes]

So did man eons ago.

And so did some animals. Your point?

[Bob]

And so did some animals. Your point?

What tool did you use back then?

[Philly Rabbit]

A career ever driving up the cost of consumer goods for everybody and putting more and more Americans out of work.

This is your educational system and what it's producing coming out of it.

[Green Arrow]

Not sure why we have posters not a bit proud to be human beings.

Why should we be? It's not like we had a choice to be human. We did nothing to become human.

I am proud of my accomplishments in life. I am not proud to be human, white, gay, or male.

[Bob]

Why should we be? It's not like we had a choice to be human. We did nothing to become human.

I am proud of my accomplishments in life. I am not proud to be human, white, gay, or male.

I am sorry about that. I am still proud.

[Philly Rabbit]

And I'll also add that this will be a government employment position she'll be getting I'll wager. Being out in the private sector and trying to pay the bills for a few years makes saving the wales start disappearing in the rear view mirror very quickly.

[Green Arrow]

And I'll also add that this will be a government employment position she'll be getting I'll wager. Being out in the private sector and trying to pay the bills for a few years makes saving the wales start disappearing in the rear view mirror very quickly.

Wales has a dragon on their flag. A red dragon, at that. Lots of historical badasses were from Wales. Why shouldn't we save Wales?

[Philly Rabbit]

Wales has a dragon on their flag. A red dragon, at that. Lots of historical badasses were from Wales. Why shouldn't we save Wales?

If she doesn't acquire a government position out of this soon after graduation, she'll be going to post graduate school. That's what happens when you get out in the real world and the bills are due.

[Philly Rabbit]

............ whales .. whatever.

[pjohns]

Considering this is purely a non-religious subject discussing biological similarities - yes.

Most people grasp that concept fairly easily.

The board may, indeed, be "non-religious"; but that is quite a different matter from its being anti-religious.

Moreover, I do not believe it requires a great deal of religiosity to dispute PETA's claim that "[a] rat is a pig is a dog is a boy"...

[Redrose]

I don't know Chloe.

We should focus on Mars.


Can we live on Mars?

[Captain Obvious]

Save teh rabbets

[Peter1469]

Can we live on Mars?

We are close to being able to. (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Mars-Plan-Settle-Planet/dp/145160811X/ref=sr_1_1/185-8093542-4123803?ie=UTF8&qid=1415789652&sr=8-1&keywords=the+case+for+mars)

[nathanbforrest45]

yes


Do you realize the Malthusian Doctrine has been debunked repeatedly. The primary reason humans are starving is due to two thing: Government controls and cultural dysfunction.

[Peter1469]

Exactly.

Do you realize the Malthusian Doctrine has been debunked repeatedly. The primary reason humans are starving is due to two thing: Government controls and cultural dysfunction.

[nathanbforrest45]

So unless I praise all aspects of humanity and unless I deem our species the best without question and that we can do no harm, I am putting down humans?


We are the best, no question. We can live in the coldest, the hottest, the wettest, the driest climates. We have learned to grow our own food, build our own shelters, develop medicines, create machines that makes us faster and stronger than those animals that can catch a chicken in a coop.

To paraphrase a popular women's lib song of the 70's: I AM HUMAN, HEAR ME ROAR.

[nathanbforrest45]

Can we live on Mars?

I've been to Mars Hill, I don't think I would want to live there full time.

[Philly Rabbit]

Save teh rabbets

Avoid STD's .... pursue the rabbit .. avoid the punk.

[Philly Rabbit]

We are the best, no question. We can live in the coldest, the hottest, the wettest, the driest climates. We have learned to grow our own food, build our own shelters, develop medicines, create machines that makes us faster and stronger than those animals that can catch a chicken in a coop.

To paraphrase a popular women's lib song of the 70's: I AM HUMAN, HEAR ME ROAR.

We might have to eventually start from scratch and do this all over again if the Environmental Protection Agency isn't put out of business. The EPA has a death grip on all private entities.

[nathanbforrest45]

Eat more cheese

Oh wait, cheese is made from milk. Milk comes from cows, cows fart a lot and cause global warming so cows are bad. Get rid of cows. Oh wait, that is destroying an animal and reducing biodiversity.

All I can say about biodiversity is dinosaurs. You can leave home without them.

[Chloe]

And I'll also add that this will be a government employment position she'll be getting I'll wager. Being out in the private sector and trying to pay the bills for a few years makes saving the wales start disappearing in the rear view mirror very quickly.

No the type of job that I want is typically a small business or through a non-profit organization.

[Chloe]

Do you realize the Malthusian Doctrine has been debunked repeatedly. The primary reason humans are starving is due to two thing: Government controls and cultural dysfunction.

scientific progress and a change in culture can stem the affect and I hope it does. If the human population wants to keep climbing then it becomes even more vital for our species to protect the Earth's biodiversity and ecosystems.

[Chloe]

Let's see, I flew to Germany with no map nor GPS on an aircraft piloted by a human. I managed to drive up the side of Mt. Shasta and found my way back home with no map with me.

Not sure why we have posters not a bit proud to be human beings.

I'm proud of a lot of human accomplishment. I'm proud of my siblings, my friends, my parents, i'm happy when people do good things for the planet for unselfish reasons, i'm proud of myself when I accomplish a goal that I set my mind to as well. I can be all of those things and still be upset with our species as a whole for taking on traits of a virus and not having the humility to see it.

[Bob]

scientific progress and a change in culture can stem the affect and I hope it does. If the human population wants to keep climbing then it becomes even more vital for our species to protect the Earth's biodiversity and ecosystems.

Why do you presume the environment is not improving?

We have no control over Madagascar or Brazil where they deforest at at an astounding rate.

Only the young believes we are the master of the planet.

I can only master what I control.

As China builds more and more cities, emitting pollution, I have no say so.

As Africa turns raw dirt into pavement and parking lots, I can't control that.

I believe we in the USA since I was a child have performed miracles to change America to a fine country.

I recall the smell of the SF Bay when it smelled worse than a toilet. That ended well ahead of Chloe's birth.

She needs to seek information from we who have seen this country for over 75 years and see how we think of the progress made here. This country has vastly cut back in producing the valuable gas called carbon dioxide that plants desperately need. But we must catch hell from some girl because she never saw it when things were super bad.

[Bob]

I'm proud of a lot of human accomplishment. I'm proud of my siblings, my friends, my parents, i'm happy when people do good things for the planet for unselfish reasons, i'm proud of myself when I accomplish a goal that I set my mind to as well. I can be all of those things and still be upset with our species as a whole for taking on traits of a virus and not having the humility to see it.

If you were three times your age, you would appreciate our contribution to earth. You should have seen it when things were really bad. I am proud of what America has done for the environment and sound of mind to know what is done in Sumatra or Brazil is out of my control. Calm down. Things are better than decades ago in the USA.

[Bob]

scientific progress and a change in culture can stem the affect and I hope it does. If the human population wants to keep climbing then it becomes even more vital for our species to protect the Earth's biodiversity and ecosystems.

You are not aware that the growth of the human beings has vastly slowed?

When I was a teen, it was predicted by this time we all would be starving not able to feed ourselves. Is that true, that that in America humans are starving due to overpopulation and inability to have a clean environment?

Project for Chloe

Investigate all the dire predictions made in the 1950s and 1960s. See how well the adults have done over the past 65 years.

[Bob]

scientific progress and a change in culture can stem the affect and I hope it does. If the human population wants to keep climbing then it becomes even more vital for our species to protect the Earth's biodiversity and ecosystems.
Chloe is super worried about?
1. USA
2. China
3. Africa

What are you worried about? I offered some samples.

But first find out how it was 65 years ago. Then go from there.

[Chloe]

If you were three times your age, you would appreciate our contribution to earth. You should have seen it when things were really bad. I am proud of what America has done for the environment and sound of mind to know what is done in Sumatra or Brazil is out of my control. Calm down. Things are better than decades ago in the USA.

You don't even realize that the bulk of biodiversity on this planet is centered around the areas being heavily affected by human encroachment and climate change. The brazilian rainforest is one of the largest examples of biodiversity on this planet with thousands upon thousands of plant and animal species and produces over 20% of the EARTH's oxygen, not just Brazil's oxygen, but 20% of the EARTH's oxygen. I don't have the sound of mind that you have to ignore that forest being reduced in size every single year just because it's not happening in my backyard. That is just one example. Coral reefs are bleaching and dying. Forests are being dramatically cut down all over the world, and just because we replant a 100 acres of trees to replace other trees for future paper is not going to replace a rainforest.

[Chloe]

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) is super worried about?
1. USA
2. China
3. Africa

What are you worried about? I offered some samples.

But first find out how it was 65 years ago. Then go from there.

65 years ago there was more biodiversity on this planet and the brazilian rainforest, among others, were larger. There are some examples. Do you deny that the Amazon rainforest is smaller today due to human activity than it was 65 years ago?

[Alyosha]

scientific progress and a change in culture can stem the affect and I hope it does. If the human population wants to keep climbing then it becomes even more vital for our species to protect the Earth's biodiversity and ecosystems.

Bob is actually right. The US changed things for the better with the environment. We can't control other countries. We can control consumption, but that means taking a serious look at it, not simple platitudes.

Look at your fashion thread, for example. Your clothes are made court side the US by factories that require mass amounts of energy, shipped here using fossil fuels. You could take a huge step by only buying recycled clothes and telling your friends to, but you like fashion and nice clothes. So do I. I think about this. My brother buys nothing new to lower his footprint. Their computers and phones are used.

I only bring this up to say if you, someone who makes this her life, is still a consumer how do you make others stop? How do you make poor countries stop? We've sold them on the western lifestyle and now they want it too.

I think we should all be agrarian and low tech again, personally.

[Alyosha]

65 years ago there was more biodiversity on this planet and the brazilian rainforest, among others, were larger. There are some examples. Do you deny that the Amazon rainforest is smaller today due to human activity than it was 65 years ago?

He's talking about the US. Those nations want the lifestyle we sold them.

[Chloe]

He's talking about the US. Those nations want the lifestyle we sold them.

He is changing the topic. I know that in the US the way we interact with our environment is better than in some other parts of the world, however, there are other countries that are doing more responsible things for the environment than we are at this very moment as well but we have roadblocks in this country due to politics and big money. He is taking this as some sort of insult to America when it's not meant to be that type of topic.

[Bob]

65 years ago there was more biodiversity on this planet and the brazilian rainforest, among others, were larger. There are some examples. Do you deny that the Amazon rainforest is smaller today due to human activity than it was 65 years ago?

So, your yammering is over Brazil?

Control those people. I am waiting for you to show me how. Alyosha is also right.

This country would truly suck if you lived in 1950. It is a miracle what humans have done for Earth.

[Chloe]

So, your yammering is over Brazil?

Control those people. I am waiting for you to show me how. Alyosha is also right.

This country would truly suck if you lived in 1950. It is a miracle what humans have done for Earth.

My yammering, seriously? and no it's not just about the amazon it's just one example of how biodiversity is being affected by human activity. On the flip side without activism the brazilian rainforest would most likely already be gone.

[Bob]

He is changing the topic. I know that in the US the way we interact with our environment is better than in some other parts of the world, however, there are other countries that are doing more responsible things for the environment than we are at this very moment as well but we have roadblocks in this country due to politics and big money. He is taking this as some sort of insult to America when it's not meant to be that type of topic.

I hoped not to read any whining.

Topics evolve. They start at point A, get added to, subtracted from and changed.

Topics are not static.

I am trying to tell you since I lived this long, we in the USA went to bat 60 years ago to fix this. I am rather proud of our accomplishments.

If you mean other countries, have at it. Fix them. You claim some are better than we are.

Name those. How would you like to have the water they have in Africa? To use nature to defecate in? Come on, I feel you are affronting America and this country has vastly improved things compared to 60 years ago.

[decedent]

Population control IE abortion and sterilization, do no more to help the environment than they do to reduce poverty. The only race of people on earth that is reducing it's numbers toward eventual extinction through it's own global death culture of birth control, abortion, and sterilization is the white European Anglo race in fact while other races continue to grow their numbers.

These libs have it in their heads that people cause pollution, climate change and animal extinctions. Libs don't even know that pollution is natural. Lead, mercury and oil occur in nature.

As for the lib's war against white European Ango's, it's because Christ was white and commies hate Jesus.

[Bob]

My yammering, seriously? and no it's not just about the amazon it's just one example of how biodiversity is being affected by human activity. On the flip side without activism the brazilian rainforest would most likely already be gone.

Come on. i was not born in the past 5 years. I know about the Amazon. While they do deforest it at a stunning rate, it is enormous. It would be as if you were deforesting every forest in the area the size of the USA were you able to deforest it. I doubt they will come close to deforesting the Amazon.

But I have no control over Brazil. I happen to appreciate what has been done for America by concerned humans. I have yet to see you name one thing we as Americans can change over the rest of the world.

I offered you three nations and you punted. Well, tried to punt.

[PolWatch]

Yes, we have really seen an improvement in issues like air & water pollution. Some of our planet's animals have been saved from extinction. While we are patting ourselves on the back for the good work, let's not forget why we had to have programs, agencies, etc. to correct these problems.

We caused the problems. Without people to watch & report, the same (or new) issues will reappear. Mankind is kinda predictable.

Personally, I have no desire to live in an agrarian and low tech society. I've planted my own food, butchered my own meat, washed clothes in a tub by hand. Too much hard, sweaty work for me. I want my cake & eat it too...which I think is prob a common ailment. Compromise is always the best solution.

[Chloe]

These libs have it in their heads that people cause pollution, climate change and animal extinctions. Libs don't even know that pollution is natural. Lead, mercury and oil occur in nature.

As for the lib's war against white European Ango's, it's because Christ was white and commies hate Jesus.

stop with the bad faith posting and the derailing of this topic

[Chloe]

Bob is actually right. The US changed things for the better with the environment. We can't control other countries. We can control consumption, but that means taking a serious look at it, not simple platitudes.

Look at your fashion thread, for example. Your clothes are made court side the US by factories that require mass amounts of energy, shipped here using fossil fuels. You could take a huge step by only buying recycled clothes and telling your friends to, but you like fashion and nice clothes. So do I. I think about this. My brother buys nothing new to lower his footprint. Their computers and phones are used.

I only bring this up to say if you, someone who makes this her life, is still a consumer how do you make others stop? How do you make poor countries stop? We've sold them on the western lifestyle and now they want it too.

I think we should all be agrarian and low tech again, personally.

I don't have a very good response to the fashion stuff. While I actually do have a variety of clothes that are made of recycled material i'd be lying if I said that the majority of my clothes are like that. I could do a better job of making that sort of effort.

[Bob]

Bob is actually right. The US changed things for the better with the environment. We can't control other countries. We can control consumption, but that means taking a serious look at it, not simple platitudes.

Look at your fashion thread, for example. Your clothes are made court side the US by factories that require mass amounts of energy, shipped here using fossil fuels. You could take a huge step by only buying recycled clothes and telling your friends to, but you like fashion and nice clothes. So do I. I think about this. My brother buys nothing new to lower his footprint. Their computers and phones are used.

I only bring this up to say if you, someone who makes this her life, is still a consumer how do you make others stop? How do you make poor countries stop? We've sold them on the western lifestyle and now they want it too.

I think we should all be agrarian and low tech again, personally.
Chloe must be upset at other countries. When one analyzes the USA, it is the leader of the world as to conserving the old forests.

Were she living in 1910, she would hear them discussing the vast deforesting of the USA. Action was taken and now, thanks to humans, this country has more living trees standing on this country than say Brazil does or Madagascar. I am comparing to pre-white men and post white men. In other words, The USA has more trees than at any point in it's history.

I tend to follow that part of the prayer that goes partly to the effect to control what I can and others will control what they can.

[Alyosha]

Come on. i was not born in the past 5 years. I know about the Amazon. While they do deforest it at a stunning rate, it is enormous. It would be as if you were deforesting every forest in the area the size of the USA were you able to deforest it. I doubt they will come close to deforesting the Amazon.

But I have no control over Brazil. I happen to appreciate what has been done for America by concerned humans. I have yet to see you name one thing we as Americans can change over the rest of the world.

I offered you three nations and you punted. Well, tried to punt.


Our consumption effects the amazon. Our desire to eat cheap beef from cheap restaurants has caused deforestation, and it's not small deforestation. It can be seen from the atmosphere.

[Alyosha]

I don't have a very good response to the fashion stuff. While I actually do have a variety of clothes that are made of recycled material i'd be lying if I said that the majority of my clothes are like that. I could do a better job of making that sort of effort.

I don't mean just that, it's everything we do in the west. Everything we own now is shipped to us. On top of that we've fed others on our lifestyle.

unless you can make being Amish cool again, I don't see how you can accomplish what you want. Btw, I think we should live like Eustace Conway. We should be agrarian. Modern life ain't that great.

[Bob]

Yes, we have really seen an improvement in issues like air & water pollution. Some of our planet's animals have been saved from extinction. While we are patting ourselves on the back for the good work, let's not forget why we had to have programs, agencies, etc. to correct these problems.

We caused the problems. Without people to watch & report, the same (or new) issues will reappear. Mankind is kinda predictable.

Personally, I have no desire to live in an agrarian and low tech society. I've planted my own food, butchered my own meat, washed clothes in a tub by hand. Too much hard, sweaty work for me. I want my cake & eat it too...which I think is prob a common ailment. Compromise is always the best solution.

See, she notices that America is better than it was when we were kids. Even with a lot lower population, people would toss trash almost anywhere they wanted to.

During WW 2, my parents had a 55 gal drum in their back yard, and it was quite common, where they burned trash. It was ruled later to end that since the pollution in the air was fearsome.

I just want our generation appreciated for the way we improved things.

Today, in the Federal Forests, you can still just cut loose and do number 1 and 2 in the forest. It time the Feds put toilets in the forests.

[Alyosha]

Yes, we have really seen an improvement in issues like air & water pollution. Some of our planet's animals have been saved from extinction. While we are patting ourselves on the back for the good work, let's not forget why we had to have programs, agencies, etc. to correct these problems.

We caused the problems. Without people to watch & report, the same (or new) issues will reappear. Mankind is kinda predictable.

Personally, I have no desire to live in an agrarian and low tech society. I've planted my own food, butchered my own meat, washed clothes in a tub by hand. Too much hard, sweaty work for me. I want my cake & eat it too...which I think is prob a common ailment. Compromise is always the best solution.


The problem is you want 7 billion people to compromise and that means nothing changes. Those products would still require factories, shipping, etc. Chloe is not an alarmist. Were at the brink and small changes won't make a difference. There is a real scientific tipping point. We either do something drastic now or those species are gone.

Now is when we see how much people really care, is it a liberal feel good talking point or will they walk the walk and go live like the natives did. I know people doing it. It's hard work as you said but they're doing it.

[Chloe]

I don't mean just that, it's everything we do in the west. Everything we own now is shipped to us. On top of that we've fed others on our lifestyle.

unless you can make being Amish cool again, I don't see how you can accomplish what you want. Btw, I think we should live like Eustace Conway. We should be agrarian. Modern life ain't that great.

The western style of living in unsustainable. It will take a true investment by people to change that way of life. My genuine fear is that we will wait until the very last minute to recognize a lot of the problems and be playing catch up for years. We could start making genuine progress right now but when you have the current marriage of politics and business/money it's going to be hard unfortunately, especially when many of those businesses and politicians love how things operate in the status quo.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chloe http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=834838#post834838)
I don't have a very good response to the fashion stuff. While I actually do have a variety of clothes that are made of recycled material i'd be lying if I said that the majority of my clothes are like that. I could do a better job of making that sort of effort.



I don't mean just that, it's everything we do in the west. Everything we own now is shipped to us. On top of that we've fed others on our lifestyle.

unless you can make being Amish cool again, I don't see how you can accomplish what you want. Btw, I think we should live like Eustace Conway. We should be agrarian. Modern life ain't that great.
Chloe has a great heart. I applaud her for even caring. But she needs to bone up on American history as to these issues.

Some countries suck at things we do very well.

It is time to praise America.

[Bob]

The western style of living in unsustainable. It will take a true investment by people to change that way of life. My genuine fear is that we will wait until the very last minute to recognize a lot of the problems and be playing catch up for years. We could start making genuine progress right now but when you have the current marriage of politics and business/money it's going to be hard unfortunately, especially when many of those businesses and politicians love how things operate in the status quo.

Are you kidding?

America has made vast progress. We used to toss the old TV sets on some vacant property. Not me, but a lot did. Today those are recycled. Bottles of soft drinks have premiums so you will recycle.

Give us old timers some credit.

[Peter1469]

The western lifestyle is very sustainable. We continue to advance and will overcome these pollution issues and thrive. There is no need to go backwards.

[Chloe]

Are you kidding?

America has made vast progress. We used to toss the old TV sets on some vacant property. Not me, but a lot did. Today those are recycled. Bottles of soft drinks have premiums so you will recycle.

Give us old timers some credit.

There has bee progress sure but that doesn't mean that we just stop and admire it. We keep going.

[Alyosha]

The western style of living in unsustainable. It will take a true investment by people to change that way of life. My genuine fear is that we will wait until the very last minute to recognize a lot of the problems and be playing catch up for years. We could start making genuine progress right now but when you have the current marriage of politics and business/money it's going to be hard unfortunately, especially when many of those businesses and politicians love how things operate in the status quo.

You're still thinking government. I'm a lawyer. Write an environmental regulation and I'll find the loophole. That's my job. All the big polluters and developers have teams of lawyers. You can't save the earth through legislation.

You change the culture.

Buy land and save it. Buy more land and save it. Cut back on consumption and show others how. Convince people that it's important, make an argument!

And live the the life you think others should live without government telling you to. People love to use hypocrisy to avoid doing what's right.

I'm with you, btw. It is one of the reasons we all bought land and created a mini commune.

[Bob]

The problem is you want 7 billion people to compromise and that means nothing changes. Those products would still require factories, shipping, etc. Chloe is not an alarmist. Were at the brink and small changes won't make a difference. There is a real scientific tipping point. We either do something drastic now or those species are gone.

Now is when we see how much people really care, is it a liberal feel good talking point or will they walk the walk and go live like the natives did. I know people doing it. It's hard work as you said but they're doing it.

Maybe others are so arrogant as to presume they can change India, but I sure am not.

The USA does ten times the whining yet this country leads the world in trying to improve the planet.

I feel like America is getting spanked on this forum.

[Common Sense]

The western lifestyle is very sustainable. We continue to advance and will overcome these pollution issues and thrive. There is no need to go backwards.

There's no way the entire planet could live the western lifestyle.

Hopefully with time and technology that will change.

[Peter1469]

There's no way the entire planet could live the western lifestyle.

Hopefully with time and technology that will change. That is my point....

[Alyosha]

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) has a great heart. I applaud her for even caring. But she needs to bone up on American history as to these issues.

Some countries suck at things we do very well.

It is time to praise America.

You're missing her point which is biodiversity, not pollution.

[Chloe]

You're missing her point which is biodiversity, not pollution.

thank you

[Alyosha]

Maybe others are so arrogant as to presume they can change India, but I sure am not.

The USA does ten times the whining yet this country leads the world in trying to improve the planet.

I feel like America is getting spanked on this forum.

Control your feelings.

[Bob]

There has bee progress sure but that doesn't mean that we just stop and admire it. We keep going.

I have not at any time stated it is time to stop. But your major problem is not found in the USA, but in other countries. I can't control other countries nor can you.

This reminds me of that shark argument. Others kill sharks but I am supposed to blow my frigging top over it.

[PolWatch]

The problem is you want 7 billion people to compromise and that means nothing changes. Those products would still require factories, shipping, etc. Chloe is not an alarmist. Were at the brink and small changes won't make a difference. There is a real scientific tipping point. We either do something drastic now or those species are gone.

Now is when we see how much people really care, is it a liberal feel good talking point or will they walk the walk and go live like the natives did. I know people doing it. It's hard work as you said but they're doing it.

again, you are right. Small steps will not make any big changes. What's the alternative? Making laws to tell everyone what to wear, what to eat, etc, etc (we already have a measure of that...not working too well). I don't see the majority of the world marching to the woods & looking for pine nuts for dinner. I guess we should just all give up and let big business decide how they want the world to look in 50, 100, 150 years.

I'm one small person, living in a small house, concerned with my small life. I will never make a big impression on the world. I can try to make small changes (along with a million other small people). Who knows? It might work. Even one small canary in a mine can save the lives of many humans...before it dies at least.

[Bob]

Control your feelings.

That assumes I am not. However, I work on reason, not emotions.

[Bob]

again, you are right. Small steps will not make any big changes. What's the alternative? Making laws to tell everyone what to wear, what to eat, etc, etc (we already have a measure of that...not working too well). I don't see the majority of the world marching to the woods & looking for pine nuts for dinner. I guess we should just all give up and let big business decide how they want the world to look in 50, 100, 150 years.

I'm one small person, living in a small house, concerned with my small life. I will never make a big impression on the world. I can try to make small changes (along with a million other small people). Who knows? It might work. Even one small canary in a mine can save the lives of many humans...before it dies at least.

Well put. Very well stated.

[Chloe]

I have not at any time stated it is time to stop. But your major problem is not found in the USA, but in other countries. I can't control other countries nor can you.

This reminds me of that shark argument. Others kill sharks but I am supposed to blow my frigging top over it.

Major or minor, act locally, think globally. How can I focus on India when my own state still needs help? Why focus all of my efforts on China when habitats are being destroyed a few miles away from our house to make room for "progress"?

[Chloe]

That assumes I am not. However, I work on reason, not emotions.

You are getting upset about us bringing up issues that still remain in America instead of us being cheerleaders for past accomplishment. That's not reason.

[Bob]

You're missing her point which is biodiversity, not pollution.

Well, do you mean pollution has no impact on biodiversity? I know of no way to cultivate more variety of insects, birds or other animals. Monkeys poke at termite mounds with sticks but is that really what we mean by talking of using tools? She earlier spoke of tools I believe. Could be wrong though.

We must admit that this forum, nay, all forums, suck when it comes to real earnest discussions. I can't read your body language. I don't hear you giggle or yell. It is just words.

[Alyosha]

again, you are right. Small steps will not make any big changes. What's the alternative? Making laws to tell everyone what to wear, what to eat, etc, etc (we already have a measure of that...not working too well). I don't see the majority of the world marching to the woods & looking for pine nuts for dinner. I guess we should just all give up and let big business decide how they want the world to look in 50, 100, 150 years.

I'm one small person, living in a small house, concerned with my small life. I will never make a big impression on the world. I can try to make small changes (along with a million other small people). Who knows? It might work. Even one small canary in a mine can save the lives of many humans...before it dies at least.


Laws don't work. We need a shift in culture...or natural disaster.

[Bob]

You are getting upset about us bringing up issues that still remain in America instead of us being cheerleaders for past accomplishment. That's not reason.

Were you sitting in front of me, that statement would not so much as cross your mind.

Never presume I am upset.

I just wish you studied how it once was. We made a lot of improvements.

Tackle Chile, Ecuador, Taiwan, India and China. Fix those then let's chat.

[Bob]

Laws don't work. We need a shift in culture...or natural disaster.

I completely agree. What happened to Chloe is she ran into some teacher who upset her.

[Bob]

Major or minor, act locally, think globally. How can I focus on India when my own state still needs help? Why focus all of my efforts on China when habitats are being destroyed a few miles away from our house to make room for "progress"?

I am sorry where you live sucks. Maybe in CA our way of life prevents your problems.

Do us all a favor and direct us to photos of this mess you are discussing. Name where it is so I can see your local problem.

[PolWatch]

I think we are seeing a shift...not major, but a change from ignoring the status quo. I've seen several posters here who could not, by any measure, be called bleeding heart liberals, that are concerned about where their meat comes from. They take the time to locate suppliers that don't use the accepted corporate farming methods. I can't remember a time when anyone (who didn't wear sandals & beads) would be interested in the issue. Its a small change, but nothing that depends on human cooperation ever happens quickly. The problem? Will the small changes snowball into major changes in time? I don't know...but I have my fingers crossed.

[Bob]

I am trying to figure out how Chloe assumes we in other states have any say so over where she lives?

I would love to help her. Maybe she needs to tell her state to follow CA rules???

It sounds like she lives where trash is all over the place.

[Chloe]

I am sorry where you live sucks. Maybe in CA our way of life prevents your problems.

Do us all a favor and direct us to photos of this mess you are discussing. Name where it is so I can see your local problem.

Huh? I love where I live which is why I am involved in a lot of local issues and trying to protect it. I don't want to see the area that I love harmed which is why I got involved in the major that I am studying, it's why I was involved in local environmental concerns throughout high school and now in college, it's why I spend so much time in the outdoors so that I can have a better understanding of what I am trying to protect. What is wrong with you?

[Chloe]

I am trying to figure out how @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) assumes we in other states have any say so over where she lives?

I would love to help her. Maybe she needs to tell her state to follow CA rules???

It sounds like she lives where trash is all over the place.

You're getting ridiculous

[Bob]

I think we are seeing a shift...not major, but a change from ignoring the status quo. I've seen several posters here who could not, by any measure, be called bleeding heart liberals, that are concerned about where their meat comes from. They take the time to locate suppliers that don't use the accepted corporate farming methods. I can't remember a time when anyone (who didn't wear sandals & beads) would be interested in the issue. Its a small change, but nothing that depends on human cooperation ever happens quickly. The problem? Will the small changes snowball into major changes in time? I don't know...but I have my fingers crossed.

Paint me ignorant over meat sources. I am not sure some farmer saying his meat is organic is germane to my health. I know some of you chow down on steak pretty often. I don't eat hardly any such products.

I might get some ground beef when the store puts it on sale. I eat fish and at times pork chops. But hell, a barbeque steak? I got rid of my weber years ago.

[Bob]

You're getting ridiculous

I said I would love to help you and this is how you reply?

[Chloe]

I said I would love to help you and this is how you reply?

I don't need your help. Your help is wrong in my opinion.

[Bob]

Huh? I love where I live which is why I am involved in a lot of local issues and trying to protect it. I don't want to see the area that I love harmed which is why I got involved in the major that I am studying, it's why I was involved in local environmental concerns throughout high school and now in college, it's why I spend so much time in the outdoors so that I can have a better understanding of what I am trying to protect. What is wrong with you?

Reading your comments led me to accept you are not happy with where you live. That is how you come across. I offer to help you and you call me ridiculous. There is no way to compromise when you do it your way.

[Bob]

I don't need your help. Your help is wrong in my opinion.

What is wrong with you? To quote you. What do you want? Do you want me to fix your place? My place is great. You are telling us of your problems. Then when we want to help you, you tell us things like that.

Let me tell you of how cities were in 1950. As you walked down the sidewalk, you saw people smoking and tossing cigarettes all over. You saw trash in the city gutters. You had trash blowing all over.

Don't blame for enjoying the vast improvements.

[Bob]

Chloe, what you fail to appreciate is my oldest daughter is almost 50. My youngest is 20 years younger than her sister. I know how things have improved. I don't urge anybody to stop keeping the place clean, so to speak. But let's realize that prior to my two daughters being born, things were being worked on to improve this country.

I wish you could smell the SF bay as I did when I was a kid. Today the Bay is safe to swim in.

[Chloe]

What is wrong with you? To quote you. What do you want? Do you want me to fix your place? My place is great. You are telling us of your problems. Then when we want to help you, you tell us things like that.

Let me tell you of how cities were in 1950. As you walked down the sidewalk, you saw people smoking and tossing cigarettes all over. You saw trash in the city gutters. You had trash blowing all over.

Don't blame for enjoying the vast improvements.

My response to you was rude and I apologize for that.

However, to some of your points people still constantly toss their cigarettes on the ground, you can still find trash as you walk down the streets, you can find trash on some of the most pristine beaches. My point is that you can't just pat yourself on the back and not keep going with trying to make it better. I acknowledge that a lot of good things have been done, but we are nowhere close to where we should be in my mind.

[Chloe]

@chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), what you fail to appreciate is my oldest daughter is almost 50. My youngest is 20 years younger than her sister. I know how things have improved. I don't urge anybody to stop keeping the place clean, so to speak. But let's realize that prior to my two daughters being born, things were being worked on to improve this country.

I wish you could smell the sf bay as i did when i was a kid. Today the bay is safe to swim in.

i am not denying that there has been progress!!!!!!

[PolWatch]

i am not denying that there has been progress!!!!!!

I think bragging about this is kinda like an environmental version of "I quit beating my wife & dog...ain't I nice?" imho

[Philly Rabbit]

No the type of job that I want is typically a small business or through a non-profit organization.

Yes but it will be government subsidized. The EPA will be involved with the funding.

[Alyosha]

I think we are seeing a shift...not major, but a change from ignoring the status quo. I've seen several posters here who could not, by any measure, be called bleeding heart liberals, that are concerned about where their meat comes from. They take the time to locate suppliers that don't use the accepted corporate farming methods. I can't remember a time when anyone (who didn't wear sandals & beads) would be interested in the issue. Its a small change, but nothing that depends on human cooperation ever happens quickly. The problem? Will the small changes snowball into major changes in time? I don't know...but I have my fingers crossed.


Libertarians are the new hippies. Were anti war, pro agrarian and sustainable living, but because we don't believe government is the solution people get confused.

[Alyosha]

I'm proud of a lot of human accomplishment. I'm proud of my siblings, my friends, my parents, i'm happy when people do good things for the planet for unselfish reasons, i'm proud of myself when I accomplish a goal that I set my mind to as well. I can be all of those things and still be upset with our species as a whole for taking on traits of a virus and not having the humility to see it.

Scientific progress without the checks and balances of a god or religion is why were where we are now. To quote Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park, scientists are so excited that they could do something that they never stop to think if they should. Before you know it there done and stamped a price tag on it.

[Bob]

I think bragging about this is kinda like an environmental version of "I quit beating my wife & dog...ain't I nice?" imho

In other words, making the Potomac River clean is just like that?

For cryinoutloud, that means no progress gets appreciated.

[Mister D]

...our species as a whole for taking on traits of a virus and not having the humility to see it.

^^^ political suicide. Just an FYI

[Bob]

Libertarians are the new hippies. Were anti war, pro agrarian and sustainable living, but because we don't believe government is the solution people get confused.

Here is the thing for me. I really like Libertarians who do not park in my face on issues. To be jumped on by Libertarians in my view means they don't mean what they preach. To allow me to breath as I explain po9litics ought to be on their first priority list.

My problem is the public. The public has not much respect for republicans though I know not why since so many do vote republican. Even Democrats only respect democrats but they do not respect Libertarians were we do.

[Mister D]

Scientific progress without the checks and balances of a god or religion is why were where we are now. To quote Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park, scientists are so excited that they could do something that they never stop to think if they should. Before you know it there done and stamped a price tag on it.

Right. Progress, in so much as it's real, is merely technological progress which is morally neutral. It gave us penicillin and the cure for polio but it also gave us the Maxim gun and the atom bomb.

[Alyosha]

^^^ political suicide. Just an FYI

Its why people don't listen to environmentalists, that and the Macs, iPhones, and Northface clothing.

[Bob]

I don't believe Chloe ever saw a child inside an Iron Lung. Yes folks, there is more to appreciate about America than is let on by it's detractors.

I wonder how she would feel rafting down trashed up rivers? That was once the fate if you wanted to use a river.

[Mister D]

Its why people don't listen to environmentalists, that and the Macs, iPhones, and Northface clothing.

Agreed. That kind of rhetoric inspires a handful and alienates everyone else.

[Alyosha]

Right. Progress, in so much as it's real, is merely technological progress which is morally neutral. It gave us penicillin and the cure for polio but it also gave us the Maxim gun and the atom bomb.

Precisely. Morality is required and that morality has to have embedded consequence. If the bomb you build kills people and you can go to eternal Hell for it you'll think twice about using it. Altruism only goes so far with some people. Fear is required.

[Bob]

Its why people don't listen to environmentalists, that and the Macs, iPhones, and Northface clothing.

Man long ago learned that to please a woman, you put away the club and brought flowers.

I feel as if some who claim to be environmentalists walk around with the club.

[Alyosha]

I don't believe @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) ever saw a child inside an Iron Lung. Yes folks, there is more to appreciate about America than is let on by it's detractors.

I wonder how she would feel rafting down trashed up rivers? That was once the fate if you wanted to use a river.


Bob, quit insulting Chloe. She'll just ignore you anyway. She's already acknowledged things got better.

[Mister D]

Precisely. Morality is required and that morality has to have embedded consequence. If the bomb you build kills people and you can go to eternal Hell for it you. You'd think twice about using it. Altruism only goes so far with some people. Fear is required.

Yes, without any ultimate meaning we're morally adrift. Some may disagree but I don't think it could really be any other way.

[Bob]

Right. Progress, in so much as it's real, is merely technological progress which is morally neutral. It gave us penicillin and the cure for polio but it also gave us the Maxim gun and the atom bomb.

I can't quite connect Penicillin and the a bomb. We once used two A bombs. Penicillin has been why so many live who otherwise would die.

Actually a good case can be made that overall, the A bomb saved lives that would have been lost otherwise.

[Alyosha]

I can't quite connect Penicillin and the a bomb. We once used two A bombs. Penicillin has been why so many live who otherwise would die.

Actually a good case can be made that overall, the A bomb saved lives that would have been lost otherwise.

Some would argue that it didn't or that long term diplomacy after World War I would have prevented WWII.

[Mister D]

I can't quite connect Penicillin and the a bomb. We once used two A bombs. Penicillin has been why so many live who otherwise would die.

Actually a good case can be made that overall, the A bomb saved lives that would have been lost otherwise.

That you cannot make the connection here between an instrument created to save life and one created to destroy it does not surprise me, Bob.

[Bob]

I recall a lot of WW2 events as a child but for the life of me, never heard of the A bomb explosions until years after the fact. When those bombs were exploded, I was then living 4 miles from the nearest small town and did not have radio nor TV nor papers.

i knew the WW2 ended by the huge number of steam trains blowing the steam whistles. It caused me as a kid in the 2nd grade to ask why the trains suddenly blew all those whistles and learned the war ended.

[Mister D]

Some might also argue that this is a weird, Bobesque totally missing the point tangent. :smiley:

[Alyosha]

Some might also argue that this is a weird, Bobesque totally missing the point tangent. :smiley:

Which is why we should not indulge and return to biodiversity.

[Bob]

Bob, quit insulting Chloe. She'll just ignore you anyway. She's already acknowledged things got better.

That is not the only time you have been wrong about me. I don't insult her. Nor would i insult her.

Did you not notice her barbed remarks to me? Still, in reply I refused to insult her.

[Bob]

Some might also argue that this is a weird, Bobesque totally missing the point tangent. :smiley:

No, it is you missing the point tangent. Why must you start taunting?

[Bob]

bio·di·ver·si·ty noun \-də-ˈvər-sə-tē, -dī-\: the existence of many different kinds of plants and animals in an environment










Full Definition of BIODIVERSITY: biological diversity in an environment as indicated by numbers of different species of plants and animals
— bio·di·verse adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/styles/default/images/reference/external.jpg See biodiversity defined for English-language learners » (http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/biodiversity)

See biodiversity defined for kids » (http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?book=Student&va=biodiversity)

First Known Use of BIODIVERSITY1985

OK, now that is out of the way, let's shuck and jive each other as if we were experts.

Mmmmkay?

[Mister D]

So Chloe I actually agree with much of what you say but you take it to a level I'm just not comfortable with. I would advise a change in rhetoric if you wish to convince. You'll never convince the GOP/capitalism at all costs drones but you will reach far more people if you left out these misanthropic comments.

[Bob]

So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) I actually agree with much of what you say but you take it to a level I'm just not comfortable with. I would advise a change in rhetoric if you wish to convince. You'll never convince the GOP/capitalism at all costs drones but you will reach far more people if you left out these misanthropic comments.

This to me has nothing to do with capitalism. It has a lot to do with mind numbing control of human beings by people who allege to mean well.

A different form of speaking might help. I do believe she has a good heart.

[Mister D]

This to me has nothing to do with capitalism. It has a lot to do with mind numbing control of human beings by people who allege to mean well.

A different form of speaking might help. I do believe she has a good heart.

It has everything to do with the way we live, Bob.

Chloe, you won't make any headway with some folks. It's a culture.

[Bob]

It has everything to do with the way we live, Bob.

Chloe, you won't make any headway with some folks. It's a culture.

You already told her she is not reaching you. That you don't like how she talks.

[Mister D]

You already told her she is not reaching you. That you don't like how she talks.


So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) I actually agree with much of what you say but you take it to a level I'm just not comfortable with. I would advise a change in rhetoric if you wish to convince. You'll never convince the GOP/capitalism at all costs drones but you will reach far more people if you left out these misanthropic comments.

[Bob]

Mr D

You annoyed me by making me the subject of your commentary.

I remind you one more time

I am not the topic

Topics have at least two sides to them.

I enjoying forcing others to think over what they are trying to claim.

[Alyosha]

Mr D

You annoyed me by making me the subject of your commentary.

I remind you one more time

I am not the topic

Topics have at least two sides to them.

I enjoying forcing others to think over what they are trying to claim.


You've made chloe the subject of your commentary.

[Common]

You already told her she is not reaching you. That you don't like how she talks.

Thats not what he said bob, he said he agree'd with her but she takes a step to far and that makes it less convincing

[Common]

Has anyone ever changed a persons view on any major issue on a forum ?

[Captain Obvious]

Has anyone ever changed a persons view on any major issue on a forum ?

My views have materially changed.

Over the years, not drastically mind you.

[Safety]

Has anyone ever changed a persons view on any major issue on a forum ?

For me it hasn't, but what it has done is made me aware that there are some seriously fucked up people who vote. Some of the most superficial shit is the main reason I noticed people may vote for or against someone. I believe more thought is put into the voting of American Idol than it is for something that ultimately affects your life.

[Chloe]

So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) I actually agree with much of what you say but you take it to a level I'm just not comfortable with. I would advise a change in rhetoric if you wish to convince. You'll never convince the GOP/capitalism at all costs drones but you will reach far more people if you left out these misanthropic comments.

I'll admit that when I get a little worked up my opinions and beliefs can become a little less compromising. I also admittedly struggle with the inner thought of letting the very things down that I am trying to protect if I start to make excuses to think differently or compromise my beliefs. Things that I need to work on internally I guess.

[pjohns]

I'm proud of a lot of human accomplishment. I'm proud of my siblings, my friends, my parents, i'm happy when people do good things for the planet for unselfish reasons, i'm proud of myself when I accomplish a goal that I set my mind to as well. I can be all of those things and still be upset with our species as a whole for taking on traits of a virus and not having the humility to see it.

So, you love yourself, plus your "siblings," "friends," and "parents"; yet you loathe humans "as a whole," whom you view as being tantamount to "a virus."

Is that about right?

[Chloe]

So, you love yourself, plus your "siblings," "friends," and "parents"; yet you loathe humans "as a whole," whom you view as being tantamount to "a virus."

Is that about right?

Yes to the first half, no to the second. Much of human activity on the surface of the Earth can be compared to a virus of some sort. A rash would be a better example. It starts off small but grows and grows if left untreated. Human activity can do a lot of great things, however, as we spread out more and more and as we utilize more and more resources we risk becoming a virus to ourselves and to other living creatures by ignoring our negative actions and/or justifying those actions so that we can be comfortable in our minds to continue the negative action. I'm not saying that humans are a virus, but our actions can and will ultimately act like a virus if we do not continue to try and better ourselves and to try and improve how we interact with the rest of the living creatures on this planet that have just as much of a right to exist as we do.

[nathanbforrest45]

Chloe
This is a serious question. Is a deed done for selfish reasons less effective than the exact same deed done for unselfish reasons? In other words if I develop a system to remove toxic waste from drinking water and make money on it is more, less or the same amount of toxic waste removed from drinking water if I just gave it away?

[pjohns]

Our consumption effects the amazon. Our desire to eat cheap beef from cheap restaurants has caused deforestation, and it's not small deforestation. It can be seen from the atmosphere.

So what would be your preferred solution?

Would it be more-expensive beef?

If so, would you attempt to achieve this end through persuasion--or through coercion?

[Chloe]

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)
This is a serious question. Is a deed done for selfish reasons less effective than the exact same deed done for unselfish reasons? In other words if I develop a system to remove toxic waste from drinking water and make money on it is more, less or the same amount of toxic waste removed from drinking water if I just gave it away?

I would be supportive of an action or person that makes a profit off of removing toxic waste from drinking water. I am not supportive of the person's ability to make money which results in the polluting of drinking water.

[pjohns]

Btw, I think we should live like Eustace Conway. We should be agrarian. Modern life ain't that great.

You should certainly feel free to live however you see fit.

My problem comes when others try to lecture the American people in general as to how they should live...

[nathanbforrest45]

My yammering, seriously? and no it's not just about the amazon it's just one example of how biodiversity is being affected by human activity. On the flip side without activism the brazilian rainforest would most likely already be gone.
Where would you like the people of Brazil to live and work? How would you feed them if the "rainforest" were not cut down? Ah, the other aspect of this argument is simply "too many people". So how do we reduce the number of people on the planet? Do we start wars to kill off whole populations? Do we stop developing life saving drugs and medical procedures? Or do we do the one thing you don't want to talk about, promote abortion as a valid lifestyle?

Have you ever heard of the Luddites?

[pjohns]

Major or minor, act locally, think globally.

It is a 1960s-era cliché.

Personally, I much prefer to think locally...

[nathanbforrest45]

I would be supportive of an action or person that makes a profit off of removing toxic waste from drinking water. I am not supportive of the person's ability to make money which results in the polluting of drinking water.


No one in their right mind would support the deliberate pollution of drinking water. For one thing as a capitalist I know its counter productive. (1) I am reducing the number of potential customers if I kill them off and (2) I am opening myself up to massive lawsuits for destroying that which does not belong to me, i.e. the drinking water supply.

[Common Sense]

The invisible hand cleans rivers and lakes. That's why there's no pollution.

[pjohns]

Some would argue that it didn't or that long term diplomacy after World War I would have prevented WWII.

"[L]ong term diplomacy"?

Woulda, coulda, shouda.

It is a bit like one's arguing that if only the Treaty of Versailles, which brought an end to WWI, had been less punitive toward Germany, Hitler would have never risen to power...

[pjohns]

I'm not saying that humans are a virus, but our actions can and will ultimately act like a virus if we do not continue to try and better ourselves and to try and improve how we interact with the rest of the living creatures on this planet that have just as much of a right to exist as we do.

Where do you find this (alleged) "right to exist"?

How does it fit in with the doctrine of the survival of the fittest?

And does it lead you to be a vegan, and to eschew all leather goods?

[Alyosha]

The invisible hand cleans rivers and lakes. That's why there's no pollution.

The government prevents pollution. That's why there's no pollution.

See what I did there?

[Chloe]

Where do you find this (alleged) "right to exist"?

How does it fit in with the doctrine of the survival of the fittest?

And does it lead you to be a vegan, and to eschew all leather goods?

What I mean is that they should have an equal chance of survival and it is not up to us to determine the length of that survival. It would be irresponsible and immoral in my opinion to eliminate other species especially since we are all interdependent.

As for the vegan thing I am a vegetarian and I do try really hard to incorporate aspects of a vegan lifestyle into my life and routine.

[Common Sense]

The government prevents pollution. That's why there's no pollution.

See what I did there?

Oh I see.

[Alyosha]

Oh I see.

People will do it when motivated

http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/24/anarchy-in-detroit

Tom Nardone is the founder and president of the thriving e-commerce site, PriveCo, which specializes in products that customers don't want their friends and neighbors to know they're buying—vibrators, enema bags, hair loss treatments, etc. Three years ago, Nardone started applying his entrepreneurial expertise to a different problem: the dreadfully maintained parks in his hometown of Detroit, Michigan. Weeds and trash have transformed Detroit's playground jungle gyms into actual jungles.

Nardone knew it was no use approaching the city's hapless Department of Recreation, so he brought his ride-on lawnmower down to a public park and got to work. Then he invited some friends to join him. "When the first person showed up, I was like, 'OK, I guess someone's as crazy as I am.'" So the Mower Gang was formed, a group of volunteers sporting skull-and-crossbones insignia. They gather every week at a different stretch of neglected parkland to drink beer and mow.


Detroit's future, to put it mildly, looks bleak. About one-third of its 138 square miles are deserted, it has no tax base, and its schools are horrendous. Last year, one in every 1,800 residents was murdered. In July, the city filed for bankruptcy, and politicians, unions, and investors are currently slugging it out in court, grasping for whatever little cash remains in the Motor City's coffers. But the Mower Gang is just one example of how individuals all over the city are taking it upon themselves to make life better.

Another example is the Detroit Threat Management Center (TMC), a private security firm that provides a range of affordable public safety services, including car-to-front door escorts, security details, and neighborhood patrols. "I attribute the bankruptcy and all the economic issues to a lack of safety," says TMC president Dale Brown. "If you don't feel safe, why would you invest here?"

[PolWatch]

nothing drastic...just small steps by individuals. it works...

[Green Arrow]

Why do you presume the environment is not improving?

We have no control over Madagascar or Brazil where they deforest at at an astounding rate.

Only the young believes we are the master of the planet.

I can only master what I control.

As China builds more and more cities, emitting pollution, I have no say so.

As Africa turns raw dirt into pavement and parking lots, I can't control that.

I believe we in the USA since I was a child have performed miracles to change America to a fine country.

I recall the smell of the SF Bay when it smelled worse than a toilet. That ended well ahead of Chloe's birth.

She needs to seek information from we who have seen this country for over 75 years and see how we think of the progress made here. This country has vastly cut back in producing the valuable gas called carbon dioxide that plants desperately need. But we must catch hell from some girl because she never saw it when things were super bad.

It ended because San Fran, Fresno, and Los Angeles sent all your pollution south to the San Joaquin Valley. I know, because I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, in Bakersfield. My mother had asthma, I had lung/breathing problems, everyone I knew had health issues because of how dirty the air was, but we could never figure out why, because Bakersfield put out little pollution. We were surrounded by farmland, and a lot of us were farmers.

Science eventually told us why. All your pollution came south, where it got trapped in the bowl that is the valley.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=835017#post835017)
I can't quite connect Penicillin and the a bomb. We once used two A bombs. Penicillin has been why so many live who otherwise would die.

Actually a good case can be made that overall, the A bomb saved lives that would have been lost otherwise.


Some would argue that it didn't or that long term diplomacy after World War I would have prevented WWII.

I know what you mean as to diplomacy. It does wonders to read some great books that explain what you mean. I have read such books. They persuaded me you are correct.

Who knows, perhaps the USA never would have invented the A Bomb and H Bomb which would have prevented Stalin from building them. And others as well I suspect.

The role played by the Allies to stuff it up Germany's guts post WW! should prove that even treaties have consequences.

[Bob]

It ended because San Fran, Fresno, and Los Angeles sent all your pollution south to the San Joaquin Valley. I know, because I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, in Bakersfield. My mother had asthma, I had lung/breathing problems, everyone I knew had health issues because of how dirty the air was, but we could never figure out why, because Bakersfield put out little pollution. We were surrounded by farmland, and a lot of us were farmers.

Science eventually told us why. All your pollution came south, where it got trapped in the bowl that is the valley.

What ended?

I knew the air pollution was going to Bakersfield at least by 1980, some 34 years ago.

How did I know? I flew the Piper Arrow down there and over to Barstow and saw a lot of it. I also flnew to Fresno and saw it. I saw it all over the valley. However the thick layer is around 9,000 feet but no doubt at ground level too. We can't judge the quality of Air in the SF Bay area by what happens in Bakersfield. Bakersfield, the city of my brothers birth in 1941, Dec 7 to be exact has long suffered heavy truck traffic up both highway 99 and highway 5. I helped build bridges on both those highways.
Before someone tries to correct me, 99 passes through Bakersfield but since wind carries traffic smog, I am sure winds take from highway 5 easterly to Bakersfield.

[Bob]

It ended because San Fran, Fresno, and Los Angeles sent all your pollution south to the San Joaquin Valley. I know, because I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, in Bakersfield. My mother had asthma, I had lung/breathing problems, everyone I knew had health issues because of how dirty the air was, but we could never figure out why, because Bakersfield put out little pollution. We were surrounded by farmland, and a lot of us were farmers.

Science eventually told us why. All your pollution came south, where it got trapped in the bowl that is the valley.

One correction of note. Air from Los Angeles flows north to Bakersfield rather than south as you claim Los Angeles to be north of Bakersfield and I believe you realize your mistake.

[Bob]

What I mean is that they should have an equal chance of survival and it is not up to us to determine the length of that survival. It would be irresponsible and immoral in my opinion to eliminate other species especially since we are all interdependent.

As for the vegan thing I am a vegetarian and I do try really hard to incorporate aspects of a vegan lifestyle into my life and routine.

If I speak of that glow a couple gets as they fall in love, do you know that feeling?

What is going on here is you discovered nature and now you must protect it. Do you want to preserve mankind? Maybe or maybe not. But that glow you feel over this planet is like that puppy love of a couple that turns into true love then becomes kind of usual and perhaps divorce follows.

Some of the Greenpeace founders abandoned it sort of like that. They got divorced and now lecture how bad Greenpeace actually is.

Alas, you have puppy love.

[Bob]

The government prevents pollution. That's why there's no pollution.

See what I did there?

Hey, that was really cool. I love intelligence.

[Bob]

That you cannot make the connection here between an instrument created to save life and one created to destroy it does not surprise me, Bob.

Fine, you want war? Since you plan to keep up insulting and taunting, my next comment can perhaps be just like yours is.

[Bob]

It has everything to do with the way we live, Bob.

Chloe, you won't make any headway with some folks. It's a culture.

I revisited this to add to your woes.

Stop living as you live. Live the way I live and you won't fret and moan so much.

Even you chided Chloe to mend her ways.

[Bob]

You've made chloe the subject of your commentary.

Chloe started this I believe. But my aim was not to make her my subject, but to provide alerts for her with the mention signal. I would not want her to not see a comment where she would like to see it.
Chloe, please when you see the mention, I am not trying to make you the topic. I am trying to follow up on your topic so you get told by mention you got the reply.

[Bob]

So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) I actually agree with much of what you say but you take it to a level I'm just not comfortable with. I would advise a change in rhetoric if you wish to convince. You'll never convince the GOP/capitalism at all costs drones but you will reach far more people if you left out these misanthropic comments.

A. I do vote for republicans.
B. I am no capitalist at any or all costs drone.

And she should modify her discussion as you seek her to.