Cops Pepper Spray and Taser Homeschool Parents to Forcibly Enter

[Alyosha]

http://app.response.hslda.org/e/es.aspx?s=775692352&e=255407&elq=66938140747c41599421afb53eabe774
Basically the cops were told that these parents had a "messy house", yes "messy house" and asked to be let inside. When the father asked for a warrant they tasered him and it all went downhill from there.

Luckily the judge that heard the case said it was insane and a violation of their 4th Amendment rights and threw out all of the resisting arrest charges (cops love those) and now they're suing the police.

Aggressive cops cost money.

[Dr. Who]

http://app.response.hslda.org/e/es.aspx?s=775692352&e=255407&elq=66938140747c41599421afb53eabe774
Basically the cops were told that these parents had a "messy house", yes "messy house" and asked to be let inside. When the father asked for a warrant they tasered him and it all went downhill from there.

Luckily the judge that heard the case said it was insane and a violation of their 4th Amendment rights and threw out all of the resisting arrest charges (cops love those) and now they're suing the police.

Aggressive cops cost money.
This is what happens when you train your police forces to be storm troopers.

[Alyosha]

Also Missouri, by the way. Seems they have a police issue.

[Cthulhu]

Crap, that could be me.

Scary.


Sent from my evil cell phone.

[Redrose]

To play devil's advocate, the article did not clearly state exactly what the CPS worker found as "messy".

I'm sure Alyosha has seen cases where "messy" was beyound anything a normal person would consider messy. I've seen cases with animal feces all over, holes in floors, roaches several inches thick, garbage so rotten it was becoming liquid, weapons and drugs in easy access to a child. Depending of the severity of the "messiness" the police might have had knowledge it was so severe, the health and safety of the children were at stake, and they were required to enter the home by any means to protect the children.

On the other hand, if the CPS worker was over playing her hand....as some do, and the house was just lacking in domestic skills, unmade beds and dishes in the sink, then the entry was illegal.

All the facts need to be considered.

[Alyosha]

Pretty much has nothing to do with the cops behavior Redrose. I don't always have to take the side of marines and you don't always have to take the side of cops.

The 4th amendment is our law. It requires they get a warrant and not taser and pepper spray homeowners on their porch.

[Redrose]

Pretty much has nothing to do with the cops behavior @Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123). I don't always have to take the side of marines and you don't always have to take the side of cops.

The 4th amendment is our law. It requires they get a warrant and not taser and pepper spray homeowners on their porch.


I took both sides if you notice. I know laws vary from state to state, but in Florida, if the police have a reasonable belief the welbeing of the children inside the house is in jeopardy, they do not require a warrant.

They must err on the side of protecting the kids.

There have been several cop tales on here that I agreed the police were wrong.

All I said in my previous post was more details are needed before I say they were right or wrong.

[Alyosha]

I took both sides if you notice. I know laws vary from state to state, but in Florida, if the police have a reasonable belief the welbeing of the children inside the house is in jeopardy, they do not require a warrant.

The judge says that there was no reasonable belief in this case and that they violated the law (see article). The judge is part of the enforcement system so I trust he probably knows the facts of the case.

[Dr. Who]

There is a reason for the 4th amendment. Do you really want the police to simply act on the basis of their own sensibilities to determine what is acceptable and what is not, or on the basis of a random complaint, such that you are essentially guilty until proven innocent, or would you rather that they submit an investigation to someone who is required to apply the law in their reasoning, who can issue a warrant?

[Alyosha]

There is a reason for the 4th amendment. Do you really want the police to simply act on the basis of their own sensibilities to determine what is acceptable and what is not, or on the basis of a random complaint, such that you are essentially guilty until proven innocent, or would you rather that they submit an investigation to someone who is required to apply the law in their reasoning, who can issue a warrant?


Americans have gone nuts. They place police on a pedestal like they're gods or something. They KNOW if there is something going on in that house, dammit!

Even though the stats on no knocks and warrantless raids are abysmal...

[del]

To play devil's advocate, the article did not clearly state exactly what the CPS worker found as "messy".

I'm sure Alyosha has seen cases where "messy" was beyound anything a normal person would consider messy. I've seen cases with animal feces all over, holes in floors, roaches several inches thick, garbage so rotten it was becoming liquid, weapons and drugs in easy access to a child. Depending of the severity of the "messiness" the police might have had knowledge it was so severe, the health and safety of the children were at stake, and they were required to enter the home by any means to protect the children.

On the other hand, if the CPS worker was over playing her hand....as some do, and the house was just lacking in domestic skills, unmade beds and dishes in the sink, then the entry was illegal.

All the facts need to be considered.

it certainly couldn't be the cops fault.

[iustitia]

Abolish cops.

[Redrose]

it certainly couldn't be the cops fault.


Sure it could. We also need to get all the facts. That article seems very one sided. I thought my post was very clear. CPS workers have heavy work loads, sometimes they don't handle cases well. What is "messy"? It's subjective. As I stated, if "messy" was so bad the children were in danger, then the entry was warrented. Pepper spray? If the cop sprayed him for no good reason, the cop is wrong, and needs to be dealt with, but if the home owner did something to be sprayed, well that's a different story.

If the kids ended up dead or badly injured in an unsafe home, which does happen more often than not, people would be screaming why didn't the cops do something to prevent it.

I try to be very fair and I have seen enough to know there are two sides to every story. If I was to sit on a jury with a policeman on trial, and the evidence proved him guilty, I would say guilty of course.

[Dr. Who]

Americans have gone nuts. They place police on a pedestal like they're gods or something. They KNOW if there is something going on in that house, dammit!

Even though the stats on no knocks and warrantless raids are abysmal...
I don't want to live in a world where some neurotic yahoo with a Napoleon complex and a badge gets to dictate my rights and freedoms.

[del]

Sure it could. We also need to get all the facts. That article seems very one sided. I thought my post was very clear. CPS workers have heavy work loads, sometimes they don't handle cases well. What is "messy"? It's subjective. As I stated, if "messy" was so bad the children were in danger, then the entry was warrented. Pepper spray? If the cop sprayed him for no good reason, the cop is wrong, and needs to be dealt with, but if the home owner did something to be sprayed, well that's a different story.

If the kids ended up dead or badly injured in an unsafe home, which does happen more often than not, people would be screaming why didn't the cops do something to prevent it.

I try to be very fair and I have seen enough to know there are two sides to every story. If I was to sit on a jury with a policeman on trial, and the evidence proved him guilty, I would say guilty of course.

what part of the 4th amendment eludes you?

oh, the part that makes the cops play by the rules, i forgot.

[Alyosha]

Sure it could. We also need to get all the facts.

We really don't because the judge already heard the case against the parents and said the police didn't have enough evidence to do what they did. We have the 4th Amendment in this country to prevent police from making those types of decisions on their own.

Cops are not judges. We have a warrant system.

A messy house is not an immediate threat like beatings, bruises, etc. The judge said this, as well.

Facts are in. The judge heard them. He's a judge. Done.




That article seems very one sided.

It's not. It's nicer than I would have been. At the end they said way too many nice things about the police who were just wrong in this case.




I thought my post was very clear. CPS workers have heavy work loads, sometimes they don't handle cases well. What is "messy"? It's subjective.

Messy is not immediate danger. When I was young I played in mud at my grandmothers farm with the pigs. That's pig shit mud. Was I in danger?

This is just unbelievable that you don't believe we have rights in this country and that a police officer's judgment trumps them.

Do you know why we have judges? We are moving away from judges having the power granted to them by the constitution and all of English history and common law.

Cops are cops, not judges or juries.

[Redrose]

If a judge heard the case and ruled that, then I would agree. If the article stated that, I apologize I missed it.

[Matty]

We really don't because the judge already heard the case against the parents and said the police didn't have enough evidence to do what they did. We have the 4th Amendment in this country to prevent police from making those types of decisions on their own.

Cops are not judges. We have a warrant system.

A messy house is not an immediate threat like beatings, bruises, etc. The judge said this, as well.

Facts are in. The judge heard them. He's a judge. Done.



It's not. It's nicer than I would have been. At the end they said way too many nice things about the police who were just wrong in this case.



Messy is not immediate danger. When I was young I played in mud at my grandmothers farm with the pigs. That's pig $#@! mud. Was I in danger?

This is just unbelievable that you don't believe we have rights in this country and that a police officer's judgment trumps them.

Do you know why we have judges? We are moving away from judges having the power granted to them by the constitution and all of English history and common law.

Cops are cops, not judges or juries.


We have judges who give child rapists two months time served. Do you agree with them?

[Alyosha]

We have judges who give child rapists two months time served. Do you agree with them?

Name a few of them. In 6 years of criminal defense I have never seen a judge give a child rapist two months time served.

And in this case, a messy house does not a violation of the 4th amendment make. There is a reason we have rights.

Personally, I think home school parents are targeted because people don't like religious parents schooling their kids.

[Matty]

Name a few of them. In 6 years of criminal defense I have never seen a judge give a child rapist two months time served.

And in this case, a messy house does not a violation of the 4th amendment make. There is a reason we have rights.

Personally, I think home school parents are targeted because people don't like religious parents schooling their kids.
Here is one who gave 31 days. He faced severe criticism and the sentence was reversed

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/justice/montana-rape-sentence/

[Matty]

Here's one who gave probation


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/30/robert-richards-rape_n_5060386.html

[Redrose]

All too often, law enforcement officers and child-welfare workers act as if the Fourth Amendment does not apply to CPS investigations. They are wrong. The Fourth Amendment is a legal shield that protects people from exactly the kind of mistreatment the Hagans endured.


I read this in that article. I basically agree with it, but cases like Jaycee Lee Dugard who was kidnapped and hidden in the backyard for 18 years, CPS dropped the ball there.

[Alyosha]

All too often, law enforcement officers and child-welfare workers act as if the Fourth Amendment does not apply to CPS investigations. They are wrong. The Fourth Amendment is a legal shield that protects people from exactly the kind of mistreatment the Hagans endured.


I read this in that article. I basically agree with it, but cases like Jaycee Lee Dugard who was kidnapped and hidden in the backyard for 18 years, CPS dropped the ball there.


They had 18 years to get a warrant. And CPS is usually overzealous than under. The stories I can tell about CPS...:rollseyes:


If we judged my parents generations by the rules set by current CPS my parents would be arrested. They let us play outdoors unsupervised, I rolled in mud, and would walk into the village by myself whenever we were in Poland and in Moscow I would walk at 6 all the way down the street in a major city to pick up milk.

You can't even really spank kids anymore in New York without opening yourself up to speculation of abuse and family court. I had a client who only spanked her child and it was a year of classes and supervised visits to get the kid back. He is now afraid of the police and courts and teachers because they made more out of it than he believed he said to them.

The purpose is to prevent abuse but when messy houses are abuse...well, that's too far. Should chubby kids be taken away from their parents? How about kids that are too skinny?

Meh.

[Alyosha]

Here's one who gave probation


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/30/robert-richards-rape_n_5060386.html


Yeh, that's one and he's a Dupont. Rich people with connections can murder someone and get away with it. If you notice though this was a plea deal, meaning the prosecutors offered the deal, most likely because as the article said he had a team of the state's best attorneys and they were afraid that if it went to trial they'd lose in front of a jury.

[Redrose]

They had 18 years to get a warrant. And CPS is usually overzealous than under. The stories I can tell about CPS...:rollseyes:


If we judged my parents generations by the rules set by current CPS my parents would be arrested. They let us play outdoors unsupervised, I rolled in mud, and would walk into the village by myself whenever we were in Poland and in Moscow I would walk at 6 all the way down the street in a major city to pick up milk.

You can't even really spank kids anymore in New York without opening yourself up to speculation of abuse and family court. I had a client who only spanked her child and it was a year of classes and supervised visits to get the kid back. He is now afraid of the police and courts and teachers because they made more out of it than he believed he said to them.

The purpose is to prevent abuse but when messy houses are abuse...well, that's too far. Should chubby kids be taken away from their parents? How about kids that are too skinny?

Meh.


I agree totally with that. My dad hit us with a belt. We were smacked senseless in school. We stood up in the car behind my parents, no seat belts existed, no car seats. Parents (not mine) smoked in the cars and it looked like an opium den the kids were breathing. Parents fought, some hit each other, neighbors just turned a deaf ear. It was accepted. Things have gotten stricter, more police intervention in our lives.
More rules, more laws. Are we better off? Are our kids safer?

[iustitia]

No and no.

[Redrose]

Yeh, that's one and he's a Dupont. Rich people with connections can murder someone and get away with it. If you notice though this was a plea deal, meaning the prosecutors offered the deal, most likely because as the article said he had a team of the state's best attorneys and they were afraid that if it went to trial they'd lose in front of a jury.


There have been several cases in the past few years where the judge gave little to no punishment in a rape case. Bill O'Reilly highlights these cases, making an example of the judge in each case. Because of the publicity, higher courts have reversed the lower court ruling in some cases and given a more appropriate sentence. My daughter was raped and her sex life was on trial and her rapist walked.

[Alyosha]

I agree totally with that. My dad hit us with a belt. We were smacked senseless in school. We stood up in the car behind my parents, no seat belts existed, no car seats. Parents (not mine) smoked in the cars and it looked like an opium den the kids were breathing. Parents fought, some hit each other, neighbors just turned a deaf ear. It was accepted. Things have gotten stricter, more police intervention in our lives.
More rules, more laws. Are we better off? Are our kids safer?

My parents never hit me with a belt and if they had I'd probably think they were jerks. They did spank my brother once and that was because he tried to put a fork in the electric socket. They never did me, though.

They did let us walk way down the block which doesn't happen now and, you're right, in Moscow everyone smoked. Kids were subjected to that.

Should parents be arrested for it, kids taken away? I think if we expect perfection from parents we're going to hurt a lot of kids because there are not perfect parents (aside from mine) and foster care? Holy shit that system is a pedophile's wet dream.

[Alyosha]

There have been several cases in the past few years where the judge gave little to no punishment in a rape case. Bill O'Reilly highlights these cases, making an example of the judge in each case. Because of the publicity, higher courts have reversed the lower court ruling in some cases and given a more appropriate sentence. My daughter was raped and her sex life was on trial and her rapist walked.


That's not the judge. The prosecutor works out the deal with the defense attorney based on whether or not they think they can get a conviction, if not...they'd rather them get something than nothing if it goes to a jury trial.

This is different than a judge weighing motions.

[Dr. Who]

There have been several cases in the past few years where the judge gave little to no punishment in a rape case. Bill O'Reilly highlights these cases, making an example of the judge in each case. Because of the publicity, higher courts have reversed the lower court ruling in some cases and given a more appropriate sentence. My daughter was raped and her sex life was on trial and her rapist walked.
Sadly in the case of rape, it is often a case of he said, she said. If a rape kit is not performed immediately thereafter, there is often little to substantiate the accusation unless there are witnesses. Since most rape is either familial or date rape, the victim is less likely to call police and go to the hospital on a timely basis.

[Redrose]

No and no.


Well they are safer in cars for sure.

[Redrose]

Sadly in the case of rape, it is often a case of he said, she said. If a rape kit is not performed immediately thereafter, there is often little to substantiate the accusation unless there are witnesses. Since most rape is either familial or date rape, the victim is less likely to call police and go to the hospital on a timely basis.

That is true, in my daughter's case, he said it was consensual sex. He was 21, she was 14 and not a virgin. He was a stranger to her, no previous contact. I later learned he had a previous rape accusation that went nowhere. His past was not allowed in testimony, but my daughter's sex life was an open book, she was destroyed.
She was so battered by the defense, she tried suicide a few weeks later. I've seen our legal system fail in many situations.

[Dr. Who]

That is true, in my daughter's case, he said it was consensual sex. He was 21, she was 14 and not a virgin. He was a stranger to her, no previous contact. I later learned he had a previous rape accusation that went nowhere. His past was not allowed in testimony, but my daughter's sex life was an open book, she was destroyed.
She was so battered by the defense, she tried suicide a few weeks later. I've seen our legal system fail in many situations.
You would think that at the very least it was statutory rape.

[Cthulhu]

That is true, in my daughter's case, he said it was consensual sex. He was 21, she was 14 and not a virgin. He was a stranger to her, no previous contact. I later learned he had a previous rape accusation that went nowhere. His past was not allowed in testimony, but my daughter's sex life was an open book, she was destroyed.
She was so battered by the defense, she tried suicide a few weeks later. I've seen our legal system fail in many situations.
The solution to that problem lies within the province of brothers, fathers and other male relatives.

...and when necessary, jury nullification.


Sent from my evil cell phone.

[Paperback Writer]

Parenting laws in the UK are extremely strict. Makes it difficult to punish children. I'm not even having a laugh.

http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/userfiles/Smacking.pdf

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/publications/2003/10/18406/28339

My grans used to take a stick off the ground and chase me with it. Course she never caught me. :) Still, I could have her arrested these days.

[Captain Obvious]

Parenting laws in the UK are extremely strict. Makes it difficult to punish children. I'm not even having a laugh.

http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/userfiles/Smacking.pdf

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/publications/2003/10/18406/28339

My grans used to take a stick off the ground and chase me with it. Course she never caught me. :) Still, I could have her arrested these days.

You kids need some sense beat into you.

:biglaugh:

[Vince Noir]

My mums used to chase me and my brother with her house slipper. Can't do that now. It's specifically illegal.

[Captain Obvious]

My mums used to chase me and my brother with her house slipper. Can't do that now. It's specifically illegal.

My mom's passed but in her heyday she was a fucking ass kicker. I feared her, not my dad.

When I was early teens or so she was chasing me around the dining room table, couldn't snag me so she flipped the table over on me. This wasn't one of those Ikea tables either, it was one of those hold heavy wooden ones.

[Paperback Writer]

Gads, my mum was a softie. She'd just plead with me to stop doing what I was doing. Poor dear. It's why I got packed up and shipped off to Scotland for a bit, I'm sure. Her parents, softies they were ​not.