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Chloe
01-04-2015, 02:54 PM
Bob Private Pickle

I can't believe I missed this earlier last year. I guess we will see if Japan obeys or ignores international law this year, won't we? Seems like the environmental groups were in the right the whole time. :wink:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf)

Peter1469
01-04-2015, 03:00 PM
AM will take you whaler hunting if you ask nicely. Well, just ask - nice probably doesn't matter. :smiley:

Newpublius
01-04-2015, 03:22 PM
The question is what treaty have they signed and how are their actions non conforming?

Peter1469
01-04-2015, 03:41 PM
The question is what treaty have they signed and how are their actions non conforming?

Not really. Customary international law is as controlling as treaty based law.

donttread
01-04-2015, 04:54 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) @Private Pickle (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=615)

I can't believe I missed this earlier last year. I guess we will see if Japan obeys or ignores international law this year, won't we? Seems like the environmental groups were in the right the whole time. :wink:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf)

Who is charged with enforcing this law? I mean yeah, I know the research thing is a sham as do you and obviously the courts do to. But I don't want our people in harms way or our government spending money to try to enforce these laws.
They are just animals. smart, interesting animals who should be protected where possible but still just animals

Crepitus
01-04-2015, 05:04 PM
Japanese whaling is NOT research, rules ICJ
Sure it is, they were researching how it tastes maybe?

Polecat
01-04-2015, 05:52 PM
Japs love whale meat enough to go to war over it. They will continue to harvest whales until they are all gone.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 05:58 PM
Japs love whale meat enough to go to war over it. They will continue to harvest whales until they are all gone.

The Japanese claim that they will abide by the ruling, so it literally could mean an end to whaling in the southern ocean if that's true! We can only hope.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 06:00 PM
Who is charged with enforcing this law? I mean yeah, I know the research thing is a sham as do you and obviously the courts do to. But I don't want our people in harms way or our government spending money to try to enforce these laws.
They are just animals. smart, interesting animals who should be protected where possible but still just animals

They are not "just animals" anymore or less than we are in my opinion. They deserve life as much as we do and are more important to the overall health of the planet than even our species actually is in many ways.

Polecat
01-04-2015, 06:07 PM
The Japanese claim that they will abide by the ruling, so it literally could mean an end to whaling in the southern ocean if that's true! We can only hope.

I have a hard time believing they are being honest on that. Their culture is so hard wired to status that they eat Fugu just to make a statement.

PolWatch
01-04-2015, 06:18 PM
I have a hard time believing they are being honest on that. Their culture is so hard wired to status that they eat Fugu just to make a statement.

good point. The more difficult it is to get their status symbols, the more they will crave them. I remember reading about the bird's nest soup...the bird only nested on high cliffs that made getting the nests horribly difficult.

Bob
01-04-2015, 06:38 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) @Private Pickle (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=615)

I can't believe I missed this earlier last year. I guess we will see if Japan obeys or ignores international law this year, won't we? Seems like the environmental groups were in the right the whole time. :wink:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf)

Thank you Chloe. I assure you I will never go whale hunting.

I tend to doubt I will read Moby Dick since I have so many books yet to read here at my premises. I saw the movie at one time.

Let us all know if Japan keeps killing whales.

Bob
01-04-2015, 06:42 PM
They are not "just animals" anymore or less than we are in my opinion. They deserve life as much as we do and are more important to the overall health of the planet than even our species actually is in many ways.

Good thing I know hyperbole when I read it.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 06:58 PM
Thank you @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565). I assure you I will never go whale hunting.

I tend to doubt I will read Moby Dick since I have so many books yet to read here at my premises. I saw the movie at one time.

Let us all know if Japan keeps killing whales.

ok, cool

Chloe
01-04-2015, 06:58 PM
Good thing I know hyperbole when I read it.

Good for you

donttread
01-04-2015, 08:55 PM
They are not "just animals" anymore or less than we are in my opinion. They deserve life as much as we do and are more important to the overall health of the planet than even our species actually is in many ways.

So, in your opinion animals are equal on the spiritual/evolutionary scale to humans? Do you think an Orca would have the same reservations about eating you if the opportunity presented itself? Where do you draw the line? Is a Robin of equal value to a human? A cockroach? Just higher mammals?
I'm sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from here. Also, how are they more important to the planet's health than we are . I'm not a big believer that the creatures at the top of the food chain are all that important. If whales don't eat the plankton/ seals/ fish then either something else will or disease will keep the heard's population in check.

Bob
01-04-2015, 09:02 PM
So, in your opinion animals are equal on the spiritual/evolutionary scale to humans? Do you think an Orca would have the same reservations about eating you if the opportunity presented itself? Where do you draw the line? Is a Robin of equal value to a human? A cockroach? Just higher mammals?
I'm sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from here. Also, how are they more important to the planet's health than we are . I'm not a big believer that the creatures at the top of the food chain are all that important. If whales don't eat the plankton/ seals/ fish then either something else will or disease will keep the heard's population in check.

When a person is real young, they almost worship animals. That is the sum of this problem.

Peter1469
01-04-2015, 09:29 PM
When a person is real young, they almost worship animals. That is the sum of this problem. No it isn't Bob. Stop acting like a little boy. Chloe tops you in intelligence and that just pisses you off.

del
01-04-2015, 09:32 PM
When a person is real young, they almost worship animals. That is the sum of this problem.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Your_argument_is_invalid.jpg

Bob
01-04-2015, 09:37 PM
No it isn't Bob. Stop acting like a little boy. Chloe tops you in intelligence and that just pisses you off.\\

That should get you warned at the least and perhaps thread banned.

Peter1469
01-04-2015, 09:47 PM
\\ That should get you warned at the least and perhaps thread banned. Why? It is true.

Bob
01-04-2015, 10:00 PM
Why? It is true.

I figured you out long ago.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:16 PM
No it isn't Bob. Stop acting like a little boy. Chloe tops you in intelligence and that just pisses you off.

http://youtu.be/nfWlot6h_JM

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:31 PM
So, in your opinion animals are equal on the spiritual/evolutionary scale to humans? Do you think an Orca would have the same reservations about eating you if the opportunity presented itself? Where do you draw the line? Is a Robin of equal value to a human? A cockroach? Just higher mammals?
I'm sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from here. Also, how are they more important to the planet's health than we are . I'm not a big believer that the creatures at the top of the food chain are all that important. If whales don't eat the plankton/ seals/ fish then either something else will or disease will keep the heard's population in check.

A whale is not just another animal when it comes to maintaining a healthy ocean. Without wildlife such as whales ocean ecosystems would become unbalanced, and an unbalanced ocean affects all life that depends on healthy oceans for survival, including humans, birds, and many other land and marine animals. If whales are hunted to a point where krill populations for example can become dramatically overpopulated then it leaves limited predators that are able to actually eat those krill and keep the food chain balanced. You say that something will take its place, but it doesn't always like that, especially when we are also hunting other predators such as sharks and "game" fish too. Having a population die off because of over population, disease, or starvation is not balanced or good for an ecosystem, and using that as a way to manage the ocean is highly highly irresponsible.

You also mentioned if an Orca would have the same reservations about eating me if the opportunity presented itself. How can I answer that? If I get eaten then I get eaten, however, since humans are not a typical prey item for an Orca I would say that it would be more of a fluke than anything. Orcas don't actively search for a human to consume, they prefer their natural diet.

My point about humans being less or of equal importance is pretty clear to me. If you eliminate a keystone species, such as a whale, from the ecosystem it would be dramatic and there is a great chance that there would be disastrous consequences. However, if the human species went extinct tomorrow it wouldn't do anything negative to the ecosystem. Actually it could be argued that without us, or at least a limited amount of us, many ecosystems that are being unnaturally manipulated and altered by our hand would recover to what their natural state would be or would have been.

momsapplepie
01-04-2015, 11:34 PM
Whales are far from becoming extinct from 3 countries in the world that hunt whales.

Bob
01-04-2015, 11:39 PM
A whale is not just another animal when it comes to maintaining a healthy ocean. Without wildlife such as whales ocean ecosystems would become unbalanced, and an unbalanced ocean affects all life that depends on healthy oceans for survival, including humans, birds, and many other land and marine animals. If whales are hunted to a point where krill populations for example can become dramatically overpopulated then it leaves limited predators that are able to actually eat those krill and keep the food chain balanced. You say that something will take its place, but it doesn't always like that, especially when we are also hunting other predators such as sharks and "game" fish too. Having a population die off because of over population, disease, or starvation is not balanced or good for an ecosystem, and using that as a way to manage the ocean is highly highly irresponsible.

You also mentioned if an Orca would have the same reservations about eating me if the opportunity presented itself. How can I answer that? If I get eaten then I get eaten, however, since humans are not a typical prey item for an Orca I would say that it would be more of a fluke than anything. Orcas don't actively search for a human to consume, they prefer their natural diet.

My point about humans being less or of equal importance is pretty clear to me. If you eliminate a keystone species, such as a whale, from the ecosystem it would be dramatic and there is a great chance that there would be disastrous consequences. However, if the human species went extinct tomorrow it wouldn't do anything negative to the ecosystem. Actually it could be argued that without us, or at least a limited amount of us, many ecosystems that are being unnaturally manipulated and altered by our hand would recover to what their natural state would be or would have been.

Come on. You know very well that annually species die off. And they died off long before man or whalers showed up.

What I want to know is why you show up here complaining all the time over things like this?
I asked you, if we all fall down and agree with you totally, then what?

Bob
01-04-2015, 11:40 PM
I no more believe whales are going extinct than I believe any of us can do a thing about it.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:40 PM
Whales are far from becoming extinct from 3 countries in the world that hunt whales.

There are a number of endangered whale species in our oceans today and it's always possible for more species to become threatened like they are. Apathy can kill too.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:41 PM
Come on. You know very well that annually species die off. And they died off long before man or whalers showed up.

What I want to know is why you show up here complaining all the time over things like this?
I asked you, if we all fall down and agree with you totally, then what?

You do realize that you don't have to post in a thread if you don't want to right? I can post threads over anything that interests me, just as you can.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:42 PM
I no more believe whales are going extinct than I believe any of us can do a thing about it.

Then you are a fool

Private Pickle
01-04-2015, 11:42 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) @Private Pickle (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=615)

I can't believe I missed this earlier last year. I guess we will see if Japan obeys or ignores international law this year, won't we? Seems like the environmental groups were in the right the whole time. :wink:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/148/18162.pdf)

Not sure what you think you've proven. It's obvious that Japan was using a loophole. Was that ever a question? The question now is, so? The court asked Japan to stop issuing licenses... Doubtful Japan will comply given the court has absolutely no ability to carry out any type of sentence.

Like I said before it will take a multi-national governmental push with repercussions such as embargo to change anything. Either that or they rewrite Article VII.

momsapplepie
01-04-2015, 11:43 PM
The Japanese do not hunt endangered whales. Who are you trying to kid? They are not hunting whales into extinction.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:46 PM
The Japanese do not hunt endangered whales. Who are you trying to kid? They are not hunting whales into extinction.

I never said they did

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:47 PM
Not sure what you think you've proven. It's obvious that Japan was using a loophole. Was that ever a question? The question now is, so? The court asked Japan to stop issuing licenses... Doubtful Japan will comply given the court has absolutely no ability to carry out any type of sentence.

Like I said before it will take a multi-national governmental push with repercussions such as embargo to change anything. Either that or they rewrite Article VII.

Japan said they would comply from what i've heard. I guess we will find out when the next whaling season is supposed to start. Their "research" program loophole has basically been shot down though. You should be happy.

Private Pickle
01-04-2015, 11:49 PM
Chloe if whaling truly does end does that mean you're political forum career would be over?

Private Pickle
01-04-2015, 11:50 PM
Japan said they would comply from what i've heard. I guess we will find out when the next whaling season is supposed to start. Their "research" program loophole has basically been shot down though. You should be happy.

I am extremely happy but it's been shot down before. I will be happy when I see it happen.

Chloe
01-04-2015, 11:53 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) if whaling truly does end does that mean you're political forum career would be over?

Nope. Whales are not even my top passion when it comes to environmental issues. Besides, I wouldn't really call this a career, it's just for fun until I graduate and then I can do even more in the actual field. I am able to do some good stuff on and around campus but the countdown has begun for me!

Private Pickle
01-04-2015, 11:55 PM
Nope. Whales are not even my top passion when it comes to environmental issues. Besides, I wouldn't really call this a career, it's just for fun until I graduate and then I can do even more in the actual field. I am able to do some good stuff on and around campus but the countdown has begun for me!

Figure of speech. What is your top passion? Trees?

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:00 AM
Figure of speech. What is your top passion? Trees?

The issue that i've been most centered on since high school has been plastics and other trash being discarded into natural water systems

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 12:02 AM
The issue that i've been most centered on since high school has been plastics and other trash being discarded into natural water systems

I didn't know the States had any more natural water systems outside of the oceans. Sounds like a good cause.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:02 AM
The issue that i've been most centered on since high school has been plastics and other trash being discarded into natural water systems

That is something that really needs attention. My area was so bad about that mess ending up in our rivers after rain that the federal government put the city on notice to build traps to catch it. People toss stuff that ends up in the storm drains....rain pushes it into the rivers and then the Gulf. Its a real problem.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:03 AM
Japan has no treaty, so they will do what they will regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:04 AM
I didn't know the States had any more natural water systems outside of the oceans. Sounds like a good cause.

rivers, oceans, bays, creeks, brooks, inlets, estuaries, gulfs, and everything in between.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:04 AM
http://media.al.com/live/photo/12034564-large.png
The first of two planned litter traps has been installed, and though it's catching garbage, Dog River remained a river of refuse after a recent storm, according to a video shot by a local activist. (http://nykography.weebly.com/4/post/2012/12/eslava-creek-still-a-city-of-mobile-garbage-dump.html) Rob Nykvist, a kayak enthusiast, photographer and anti-litter campaigner, shot the video at various spots in the Dog River watershed after a moderate rainfall. The results were not encouraging.
http://blog.al.com/live/2012/12/mobiles_pricey_new_litter_trap.html

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:04 AM
Japan has no treaty, so they will do what they will regardless of what anyone else thinks.

ok

Bob
01-05-2015, 12:06 AM
Then you are a fool

I have been extremely respectful to you.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 12:07 AM
rivers, oceans, bays, creeks, brooks, inlets, estuaries, gulfs, and everything in between.

Cool.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:07 AM
That is something that really needs attention. My area was so bad about that mess ending up in our rivers after rain that the federal government put the city on notice to build traps to catch it. People toss stuff that ends up in the storm drains....rain pushes it into the rivers and then the Gulf. Its a real problem.

Even some of the most remote and pristine beaches can and often times do have trash on them. It's pretty sad actually. We were vacationing in Alaska when I was in high school and after probably a solid two hour hike we arrived at a secluded beach area and wouldn't you know it we found at least two plastic water bottles just sitting there where the high tide would have been. It was one of the things that really got me motivated.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:08 AM
Glad you agree and hope you will help stop those who would throw acid on their fellow humans. I highly doubt it, since you have already said you don't care about hurting humans if it furthers your agenda.

Bob
01-05-2015, 12:10 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chloe http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=905512#post905512)
The issue that i've been most centered on since high school has been plastics and other trash being discarded into natural water systems


Too bad you did not bring that up first. I can sure get behind removing those contaminants from the oceans.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:10 AM
I have been extremely respectful to you.

We are all foolish sometimes and we are all ignorant on many things. Your comment was foolish and you are ignorant on the actual environmental issue. It may sound harsh but it's not necessarily an insult. Ignorance is normal since not everybody is an expert on everything, but when you (not you personally) are proud of your ignorance or choose to stay ignorant out of spite or stubborness then that is a problem in my opinion.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:11 AM
Glad you agree and hope you will help stop those who would throw acid on their fellow humans. I highly doubt it, since you have already said you don't care about hurting humans if it furthers your agenda.

uh huh

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:12 AM
Too bad you did not bring that up first. I can sure get behind removing those contaminants from the oceans.

I've actually brought the issue up before a number of times but the threads are buried in this environmental room. They are probably like on the first or second page of this environmental and conservation room. Every once in a while I will bring it up though.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:13 AM
Even some of the most remote and pristine beaches can and often times do have trash on them. It's pretty sad actually. We were vacationing in Alaska when I was in high school and after probably a solid two hour hike we arrived at a secluded beach area and wouldn't you know it we found at least two plastic water bottles just sitting there where the high tide would have been. It was one of the things that really got me motivated.

I live on a bayou and after heavy rains it can be pretty disgusting. The plastic will float out to the Gulf. There are reports of dolphins found dead with the plastic choking them. Those plastic holders for drinks seem to be a real problem for sealife. I don't know why they try to eat them but they do.

Bob
01-05-2015, 12:14 AM
We are all foolish sometimes and we are all ignorant on many things.

That is right. I am a very fast learner when it is somewhat important.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:15 AM
I live on a bayou and after heavy rains it can be pretty disgusting. The plastic will float out to the Gulf. There are reports of dolphins found dead with the plastic choking them. Those plastic holders for drinks seem to be a real problem for sealife. I don't know why they try to eat them but they do.

Once the plastics start to degrade they can become so tiny that many fish and marine mammals mistake it for things like plankton and krill. Plastic bags are often times mistaken for jellyfish by sea turtles which can either choke them to death or fool the turtle into thinking it has something nutritious in its stomach when it reality it offers nothing for them and can lead to starvation.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:17 AM
That's it for me. If someone is going to act like a condescending shrew, then I'm done trying to rationally speak with them.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:18 AM
A series of pictures like the one I posted above got some citizens so angry they started their own clean up program. The city is putting in trash traps but the group is collecting money for more. They also have regular clean up days for volunteers. I live in a smaller town north of that area that is much better about keeping trash out of the water system....but we still have some problems.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:18 AM
That's it for me. If someone is going to act like a condescending shrew, then I'm done trying to rationally speak with them.

bye bye

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:19 AM
Grow up.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:19 AM
A series of pictures like the one I posted above got some citizens so angry they started their own clean up program. The city is putting in trash traps but the group is collecting money for more. They also have regular clean up days for volunteers. I live in a smaller town north of that area that is much better about keeping trash out of the water system....but we still have some problems.

People are often shocked and in disbelief when they see pictures like that because otherwise it's just out of sight out of mind. The problem doesn't exist if they never see the disturbing pictures or even better see it for themselves.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:20 AM
Grow up.

contribute to the actual conversation, or you can go like you said you were

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:22 AM
The shrimpers objected when they were first required to put TED's (turtle extruder devices) into their trawls. Now, they see the TED's don't reduce their catch and they are some the most vocal about the plastic harming the turtles and other sealife. We see injured turtles brought in by shrimpers more often than by any other source.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:23 AM
Sorry, I don't let spoiled children tell me what to do. Oh, and I did contribute. You just didn't like me telling the truth.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:24 AM
The shrimpers objected when they were first required to put TED's (turtle extruder devices) into their trawls. Now, they see the TED's don't reduce their catch and they are some the most vocal about the plastic harming the turtles and other sealife. We see injured turtles brought in by shrimpers more often than by any other source.

Tomorrow i'll see if I can find one of the older threads about this plastics/trash issue. It always makes for a good conversation in my opinion. I'm going to be going to bed soon since I have to be up early otherwise i'd be all about it tonight!

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 12:25 AM
That's it for me. If someone is going to act like a condescending shrew, then I'm done trying to rationally speak with them.

Please don't call members names

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:25 AM
Sorry, I don't let spoiled children tell me what to do. Oh, and I did contribute. You just didn't like me telling the truth.

uh huh

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:27 AM
Yep! Off to bed now dearie!

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:32 AM
Yep! Off to bed now dearie!

Thanks! Have a fantastic night yourself! Now I am going to go to my nice big super comfortable bed that typically only us spoiled children get to have. It's awesome.

Calypso Jones
01-05-2015, 12:40 AM
I have always found it amazing that the biggest complainers about the environment, littering and such, are the biggest litterers. For example, the left, always claiming to be big environmentalists, leave the biggest messes for other people to clean up. Think back to their little get togethers in DC and other places over the course of the last two years. And don't forget OWS last year. THey poop all over the place, carry lice, live with vermin, not to mention criminal activity. Not very good role models. Can you imagine what the world would look like if so-called environ-mentalists got hold of the reins of authority. Reminds me of PETA and other so called Prevention of Cruelty oganizations and their main strategy for caring for animals which means killing them.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:43 AM
Just like Green peace damaging a world heritage site for their personal agenda, thy don't care, and it's only about what they believe and screw everyone else.

Dr. Who
01-05-2015, 12:48 AM
Sorry, I don't let spoiled children tell me what to do. Oh, and I did contribute. You just didn't like me telling the truth.
Please stay on topic and don't offer straw man arguments - i.e. referencing a different topic to try to score points on this one. It is a very poor debating tactic. Additionally, please refrain from personal attacks (everyone).

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 12:52 AM
Sure. Maybe others will take it to heart also and stop calling people fools and telling them they are ignorant don't know anything.

del
01-05-2015, 09:32 AM
I have been extremely respectful to you.

you've been a condescending asshat-on your good days

Captain Obvious
01-05-2015, 09:34 AM
you've been a condescending asshat-on your good days

Yeah, but a barrel full of epileptic monkeys on his best days.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 09:36 AM
Please stay on topic. Use the PM function to call each other names

del
01-05-2015, 09:40 AM
Yep! Off to bed now dearie!

don't forget to put your broom away

Captain Obvious
01-05-2015, 09:42 AM
don't forget to put your broom away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW_02k7LRMo

Paperback Writer
01-05-2015, 10:02 AM
@Captain Obvious (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=3)

I'll submit this thread as a point in my observations. Chloe, a forum darling, begins the insults and is immune from the criticism. Why? Cos we all, myself included, like her and cos we all agree that whales should be protected. Those who agree with whalers are arseholes. I'll say it.

However, Dr. Who and Pol (the two mods on) should have threadbanned Chloe (first) then: momsapplepie, del, and yourself if they were to be consistent with the rules (now me for criticising them) of the forum. Had this been @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796), nathan, @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), or @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) they would be banned already. The only thing that has kept, my opinion, momsapplepie from being threadbanned is the fact that they'd also have to ban Chloe.

If you believe this forum is not one to play favourites I don't know what to tell you. You're one of them. You ought to know this.

Calypso Jones
01-05-2015, 10:03 AM
Please stay on topic and don't offer straw man arguments - i.e. referencing a different topic to try to score points on this one. It is a very poor debating tactic. Additionally, please refrain from personal attacks (everyone).

wow...mind reading moderators.

Paperback Writer
01-05-2015, 10:05 AM
wow...mind reading moderators.

Pot stirring moderators from another forum ought to know.

del
01-05-2015, 10:16 AM
Pot stirring moderators from another forum ought to know.

that thing is a mod somewhere?

lol

Matty
01-05-2015, 10:20 AM
that thing is a mod somewhere?

lol
Stay classless!

Chloe
01-05-2015, 10:22 AM
I no more believe whales are going extinct than I believe any of us can do a thing about it.


Then you are a fool


@Captain Obvious (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=3)

I'll submit this thread as a point in my observations. Chloe, a forum darling, begins the insults and is immune from the criticism. Why? Cos we all, myself included, like her and cos we all agree that whales should be protected. Those who agree with whalers are arseholes. I'll say it.

However, Dr. Who and Pol (the two mods on) should have threadbanned Chloe (first) then: momsapplepie, del, and yourself if they were to be consistent with the rules (now me for criticising them) of the forum. Had this been @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796), nathan, @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), or @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) they would be banned already. The only thing that has kept, my opinion, momsapplepie from being threadbanned is the fact that they'd also have to ban Chloe.

If you believe this forum is not one to play favourites I don't know what to tell you. You're one of them. You ought to know this.
Paperback Writer the only "insult" i've made on this thread I think was in response to the quote at the top. I called Bob a fool for his comment above because in my opinion his comments were in fact foolish. There are whale species that are critically endangered and could go extinct in our lifetime, and we CAN do something about it. I really don't think that one comment would be worthy of a complete thread ban, a warning maybe.

To your point though I do acknowledge that when it is all said and done I am probably given more leeway than other members when it comes to certain things. I recognize that, and I also recognize that there will always be a level of favoritism in most any environment towards certain people, but in spite of that I actually try not to take advantage of it and I hope that's noticeable. I'm not perfect and I admit that I probably make it awkward for the moderators sometimes, but I do not actively seek out opportunities to milk any sort of favoritism that I might have by using those moments to insult others or break rules. Most of the time if I am insulting someone or breaking a rule it's just because i'm legitimately annoyed and I take my chances with whatever may happen.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 10:22 AM
If you have questions/complaints about moderation, please PM mod reps.

Paperback Writer
01-05-2015, 10:24 AM
@Paperback Writer (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=862) the only "insult" i've made on this thread I think was in response to the quote at the top. I called Bob a fool for his comment above because in my opinion his comments were in fact foolish. There are whale species that are critically endangered and could go extinct in our lifetime, and we CAN do something about it. I really don't think that one comment would be worthy of a complete thread ban, a warning maybe.


Chloe, reread your interactions with Bob and momsapplepie. You were insulting and rude. I know this because I'm often insulting and rude.



To your point though I do acknowledge that when it is all said and done I am probably given more leeway than other members when it comes to certain things. I recognize that, and I also recognize that there will always be a level of favoritism in most any environment towards certain people, but in spite of that I actually try not to take advantage of it and I hope that's noticeable. I'm not perfect and I admit that I probably make it awkward for the moderators sometimes, but I do not actively seek out opportunities to milk any sort of favoritism that I might have by using those moments to insult others or break rules. Most of the time if I am insulting someone or breaking a rule it's just because i'm legitimately annoyed and I take my chances with whatever may happen.

I certainly don't blame you. I don't see you asking for favourtism. I see it being handed to you by virtue of the "Chloe is an ethereal princess" meme.

Paperback Writer
01-05-2015, 10:26 AM
PolWatch

I didn't see your "sticky" though I'm not certain that I would care if I had. This thread went absolute bedlam with the insults towards momsapplepie cos no one aside from matalese likes her enough to defend her.

Threadban me as that's the honest move now.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 10:30 AM
Chloe, reread your interactions with Bob and momsapplepie. You were insulting and rude. I know this because I'm often insulting and rude.

Fair enough. I didn't really want to admit that but I knew what I was doing when I was reacting to them, especially with momsapplepie. From my perspective I just get tired of how they interact sometimes. She had no real intention of talking about the subject so I had no real intention on being respectful of her. It wasn't the most mature thing for me to do.

Captain Obvious
01-05-2015, 10:31 AM
@Captain Obvious (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=3)

I'll submit this thread as a point in my observations. Chloe, a forum darling, begins the insults and is immune from the criticism. Why? Cos we all, myself included, like her and cos we all agree that whales should be protected. Those who agree with whalers are arseholes. I'll say it.

However, Dr. Who and Pol (the two mods on) should have threadbanned Chloe (first) then: momsapplepie, del, and yourself if they were to be consistent with the rules (now me for criticising them) of the forum. Had this been @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796), nathan, @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), or @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) they would be banned already. The only thing that has kept, my opinion, momsapplepie from being threadbanned is the fact that they'd also have to ban Chloe.

If you believe this forum is not one to play favourites I don't know what to tell you. You're one of them. You ought to know this.

Discussing moderating is against the rules too, btw.

I think warnings are generally the right way to go and when the belligerence continues then thread bans, etc. are appropriate.

Everyone should get at least one shot across the bow, except for cases of really nasty stuff.

And again, mods aren't everywhere at all times, the report function is your friend. To expect them to act on everything that, in your opinion, is actionable is a little arrogant.

I wouldn't say there are "favorites" as much as there are some who are frequent fliers when it comes to belligerence.

@Paperback Writer (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=862)

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 10:31 AM
Your wish is my command...Paperback Writer is banned from this thread.

Captain Obvious
01-05-2015, 10:32 AM
If you have questions/complaints about moderation, please PM mod reps.

oops, sorry - saw that after the aforementioned post.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 10:35 AM
Please stay on topic. Use the PM function to trade insults or report your complaints.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 10:37 AM
Just like Green peace damaging a world heritage site for their personal agenda, thy don't care, and it's only about what they believe and screw everyone else.

They didn't really "damage" it they left footprints basically and trespassed but that's about it.

donttread
01-05-2015, 12:24 PM
When a person is real young, they almost worship animals. That is the sum of this problem.

Yes, but we all must grow up

donttread
01-05-2015, 12:27 PM
A whale is not just another animal when it comes to maintaining a healthy ocean. Without wildlife such as whales ocean ecosystems would become unbalanced, and an unbalanced ocean affects all life that depends on healthy oceans for survival, including humans, birds, and many other land and marine animals. If whales are hunted to a point where krill populations for example can become dramatically overpopulated then it leaves limited predators that are able to actually eat those krill and keep the food chain balanced. You say that something will take its place, but it doesn't always like that, especially when we are also hunting other predators such as sharks and "game" fish too. Having a population die off because of over population, disease, or starvation is not balanced or good for an ecosystem, and using that as a way to manage the ocean is highly highly irresponsible.

You also mentioned if an Orca would have the same reservations about eating me if the opportunity presented itself. How can I answer that? If I get eaten then I get eaten, however, since humans are not a typical prey item for an Orca I would say that it would be more of a fluke than anything. Orcas don't actively search for a human to consume, they prefer their natural diet.

My point about humans being less or of equal importance is pretty clear to me. If you eliminate a keystone species, such as a whale, from the ecosystem it would be dramatic and there is a great chance that there would be disastrous consequences. However, if the human species went extinct tomorrow it wouldn't do anything negative to the ecosystem. Actually it could be argued that without us, or at least a limited amount of us, many ecosystems that are being unnaturally manipulated and altered by our hand would recover to what their natural state would be or would have been.

Why can't we eat the krill? See problem solved. Also if we went extinct tomorrow it would adversely affect a great many species , raccoons, pigeons, cockroaches, crows, etc

Chloe
01-05-2015, 12:42 PM
Why can't we eat the krill? See problem solved. Also if we went extinct tomorrow it would adversely affect a great many species , raccoons, pigeons, cockroaches, crows, etc

If you want to go out into the ocean and catch and eat krill like a whale then go ahead, I won't stop you, but you are totally missing the point. As for the rest humans didn't create or sustain any of those animals, they exist with and without our presence. If we didn't exist then raccoons would eat a normal diet, not human trash on the side of the road.

momsapplepie
01-05-2015, 02:15 PM
you've done lost the argument when you started treating people like shit.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 02:19 PM
Momsapplepie has been banned from this thread. Please do not respond to any posts.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:20 PM
They didn't really "damage" it they left footprints basically and trespassed but that's about it.

Mimizing it doesn't make it acceptable.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:21 PM
you've done lost the argument when you started treating people like shit.

It's reciprocal. If you want to be treated well or with respect then you should treat others the same. It's transparent that you had no intention of having a sincere debate on this issue when you posted last night and so I am not going to go out of my way to entertain you. If you don't like my one word replies to your ridiculous comments then don't post in the first place and you won't get offended.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:22 PM
Mimizing it doesn't make it acceptable.

No but it also doesn't make it as egregious as people are trying to make it out to be.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:22 PM
If you want to go out into the ocean and catch and eat krill like a whale then go ahead, I won't stop you, but you are totally missing the point. As for the rest humans didn't create or sustain any of those animals, they exist with and without our presence. If we didn't exist then raccoons would eat a normal diet, not human trash on the side of the road.

Many animals are dependent on humans for their existence. Racoons included. Hard to say what would happen without humans but easy to say that the lack of humans would have both positive and adverse effects on today's environment.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 02:23 PM
Please stay on topic...Please don't call each other name...I'm having a thread ban blue light special today

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:23 PM
No but it also doesn't make it as egregious as people are trying to make it out to be.

It minimizes the actions. Actions which are contrary to their supposed belief system.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:23 PM
Many animals are dependent on humans for their existence. Racoons included. Hard to say what would happen without humans but easy to say that the lack of humans would have both positive and adverse effects on today's environment.

raccoons do not exist because of humans. We have simply just altered their natural behavior and diet due to irresponsibility, but that's fixable over time.

Common Sense
01-05-2015, 02:24 PM
Many animals are dependent on humans for their existence. Racoons included. Hard to say what would happen without humans but easy to say that the lack of humans would have both positive and adverse effects on today's environment.

LOL...yeah, without us there wouldn't be racoons.

That's fucking hilarious.

You might have a point if you said, cows, chickens and domestic pigs...

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:24 PM
It minimizes the actions. Actions which are contrary to their supposed belief system.

footprints disappear, but other human actions do not

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:25 PM
LOL...yeah, without us there wouldn't be racoons.

That's fucking hilarious.

You might have a point if you said, cows, chickens and domestic pigs...

I didn't say there wouldn't be racoons but it is undebateable that the current population of racoons benefits from human existance.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:26 PM
footprints disappear, but other human actions do not

It all starts with footprints...

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:27 PM
It all starts with footprints...

ok?

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:27 PM
raccoons do not exist because of humans. We have simply just altered their natural behavior and diet due to irresponsibility, but that's fixable over time.

Fixable by a decline in the racoon population. Sure the Earth would figure it out but plenty of species would get the short end of the stick without human intervention.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:28 PM
ok?

Point being if they aren't part of the solution...

Captain Obvious
01-05-2015, 02:29 PM
http://cdn.vitalmx.com/photos/stories/2009/07/2-stroke-shirt-front.jpg

Common Sense
01-05-2015, 02:31 PM
I didn't say there wouldn't be racoons but it is undebateable that the current population of racoons benefits from human existance.

Do they? does becoming reliant on garbage make them better off?

You do know there are sizable raccoon populations that exists without being dependent on people, don't you?

Codename Section
01-05-2015, 02:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW_02k7LRMo

del and Captain Obvious are threadbanned. We don't call women on this forum witches. Christ....

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:33 PM
Do they? does becoming reliant on garbage make them better off?

You do know there are sizable raccoon populations that exists without being dependent on people, don't you?

I would say if you asked the raccoon whether he would rather be dead or living off garbage he would choose living.

The biggest raccoon populations exist where humans do.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:33 PM
Fixable by a decline in the racoon population. Sure the Earth would figure it out but plenty of species would get the short end of the stick without human intervention.

If humans didn't kill off natural predators through a variety of unnatural methods such as deforestation, vehicle impacts, pollutants, sprawl, and so on then the raccoon population would be put in check naturally. Human intervention is deemed necessary by humans because of human intervention. We create and then manage the unnatural cycles and so without us then the natural world would operate naturally and not in an artificial way that typically only benefits one species. That's not to say we can't coexist, because we can, but to assume that we are uber vital to the working natural ecosystem is folly in my opinion.

Codename Section
01-05-2015, 02:34 PM
Chloe

this is your thread. It's a good thread. Set the tone. Stick with it.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:34 PM
I would say if you asked the raccoon whether he would rather be dead or living off garbage he would choose living.

The biggest raccoon populations exist where humans do.

That is not a good thing

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:35 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)

this is your thread. It's a good thread. Set the tone. Stick with it.

I'm trying to

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:36 PM
If humans didn't kill off natural predators through a variety of unnatural methods such as deforestation, vehicle impacts, pollutants, sprawl, and so on then the raccoon population would be put in check naturally. Human intervention is deemed necessary by humans because of human intervention. We create and then manage the unnatural cycles and so without us then the natural world would operate naturally and not in an artificial way that typically only benefits one species. That's not to say we can't coexist, because we can, but to assume that we are uber vital to the working natural ecosystem is folly in my opinion.

We don't allow mountain lions and bears to roam the streets of our cities for obvious reasons Chloe. And I'm sure we don't have to go back through the fact that there are more forests now than there were when this country was founded.

The unfortunate reality for extreme environmentalists is the fact that humans are natural to earth as well.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:37 PM
That is not a good thing

Depends on who you ask I suppose but it is reality. It almost sounds like you want to exterminate the raccoons who feed off garbage because it's unnatural for them...or exterminate humans...one of the two...

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:42 PM
We don't allow mountain lions and bears to roam the streets of our cities for obvious reasons Chloe. And I'm sure we don't have to go back through the fact that there are more forests now than there were when this country was founded.

The unfortunate reality for extreme environmentalists is the fact that humans are natural to earth as well.

A bear crossing a road is not doing anything wrong and is underserving of dying by being hit by a car. A bear wandering through a new neighborhood being built that used to be part of its forested range a week before that day is not going through the neighborhood out of malice but out of habit and probably confusion and is also undeserving of death because of it. A mountain lion that goes from one tract of land to another by crossing human infrastructure laying in the middle is not deserving of death.

Humans are animals and are part of nature. I acknowledge that and I am fine with that. My issue is with irresponsible human activity that puts the balance of a working and flourishing ecosystem in jeopardy. It is possible to co-habitate so that we are comfortable and safe but not destructive and selfish.

Common Sense
01-05-2015, 02:42 PM
Depends on who you ask I suppose but it is reality. It almost sounds like you want to exterminate the raccoons who feed off garbage because it's unnatural for them...or exterminate humans...one of the two...

Oh Jesus...


Can I get banned from this thread too please?

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:42 PM
Depends on who you ask I suppose but it is reality. It almost sounds like you want to exterminate the raccoons who feed off garbage because it's unnatural for them...or exterminate humans...one of the two...

No I just want the humans to be more responsible and to stop thinking that they are the most important thing on the planet.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:47 PM
A bear crossing a road is not doing anything wrong and is underserving of dying by being hit by a car. A bear wandering through a new neighborhood being built that used to be part of its forested range a week before that day is not going through the neighborhood out of malice but out of habit and probably confusion and is also undeserving of death because of it. A mountain lion that goes from one tract of land to another by crossing human infrastructure laying in the middle is not deserving of death.

Humans are animals and are part of nature. I acknowledge that and I am fine with that. My issue is with irresponsible human activity that puts the balance of a working and flourishing ecosystem in jeopardy. It is possible to co-habitate so that we are comfortable and safe but not destructive and selfish.

Actually there is a book you should read about "co-habitation" of animals. It's called "Beast in the Garden" and is about the mountain lions in and around Boulder County here in Colorado. What they found was that by allowing the lion's natural prey to co-habitate with humans, such as deer in the garden, elk in the front yard, etc. they invited the mountain lion as well.

At first the increased sightings of mountain lions was perceived as cool and an example of how the population of Boulder can co-habitate with nature. As the naturally shy lions became more comfortable seeing humans without threat they began seeing them not as something to be afraid of but as something to ignore and eventually something to be eaten.

The lions started with the pets. Taking dogs and cats out of yards and sometimes out of houses. Then came the attacks on humans which killed multiple people until the DOW stepped in and started a tracking program.

Today we still have these animals walking around. I had a 350 lbs black bear knock over my neighbors can and eat the trash. That bear was tranqulized and relocated which is SOP with predators until they attack a human. Once that happens they have to be put down. Why? Because humans > animals.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:48 PM
No I just want the humans to be more responsible and to stop thinking that they are the most important thing on the planet.

But we are....by far...

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:49 PM
Oh Jesus...


Can I get banned from this thread too please?


Just trying to have a discussion here man... Join in anytime...

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:50 PM
But we are....by far...

No, we all think that our own life is the most important thing, we all want to keep breathing, however, our species is not the most important. We are but one species out of billions living on this shared planet.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:52 PM
I'm also wondering how/why we always seem to have such polar views on environmental issues between the two of us

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:53 PM
No, we all think that our own life is the most important thing, we all want to keep breathing, however, our species is not the most important. We are but one species out of billions living on this shared planet.

Our species is the most important because we have the biggest impact. Regardless of whether that be negative or positive the human presence impacts Earth on a greater scale than any other being on the planet. Yes, we share the planet. Yes all species are important to the ecology and environment. And yes, humans are the shot callers in all of this.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:55 PM
I'm also wondering how/why we always seem to have such polar views on environmental issues between the two of us

In reality our views only differ at the point where environmentalism inhibits human progress. It may surprise you to learn that I am an active environmentalist...particularly when it comes to our oceans and the health of our game animals. But there is a point where environmentalism gets in it's own way and that human progress does not have to always equate to the deteriment of our planet.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 02:56 PM
Our species is the most important because we have the biggest impact. Regardless of whether that be negative or positive the human presence impacts Earth on a greater scale than any other being on the planet. Yes, we share the planet. Yes all species are important to the ecology and environment. And yes, humans are the shot callers in all of this.

In my opinion you are confusing importance with responsibility. We have the most responsibility in my opinion but are not the most important.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 02:58 PM
In my opinion you are confusing importance with responsibility. We have the most responsibility in my opinion but are not the most important.

It's both. Because we are the most important we have the most responsibility.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 03:00 PM
It's both. Because we are the most important we have the most responsibility.

That's too simplistic in my mind. It's like a company. The CEO is assumed to be the most important but without all of the other workers working for the betterment of the company than he/she is totally meaningless. We can assume to be the best species on Earth but if its at the expense and lives of other species that help keep the planet healthy, even for us, it won't work.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:04 PM
That's too simplistic in my mind. It's like a company. The CEO is assumed to be the most important but without all of the other workers working for the betterment of the company than he/she is totally meaningless. We can assume to be the best species on Earth but if its at the expense and lives of other species that help keep the planet healthy, even for us, it won't work.

True but the CEO calls the shots and has the responsibility to set the direction of the workers. Without the CEO there is no company. I would say we as humans are more aware of the environment today then we ever have been throughout history. We are doing more today to progress as a species while working towards a balanced ecology. Environmentalism needs to be approached pragmatically and not emotionally. Otherwise nothing will get done except for spiking trees and tossing butyric at people.

Chloe
01-05-2015, 03:06 PM
True but the CEO calls the shots and has the responsibility to set the direction of the workers. Without the CEO there is no company. I would say we as humans are more aware of the environment today then we ever have been throughout history. We are doing more today to progress as a species while working towards a balanced ecology. Environmentalism needs to be approached pragmatically and not emotionally. Otherwise nothing will get done except for spiking trees and tossing butyric at people.

I will agree that in the last 50-100 years the importance of the planet has become more known to people and more has and will continue to be done, but if just some of the comments on this forum are any indication there are many people that still just can't look past the tips of their own noses in my opinion, and that's just frustrating to me.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:11 PM
I will agree that in the last 50-100 years the importance of the planet has become more known to people and more has and will continue to be done, but if just some of the comments on this forum are any indication there are many people that still just can't look past the tips of their own noses in my opinion, and that's just frustrating to me.

See there you go making it emotional! You combat those people by actively engaging in environmentalism in a practical way. Via the Democratic process, lobbying, legal protest, donations and volunteerism. Where I draw the line is violent protest. MLK said it best:
"Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals."

sachem
01-05-2015, 03:28 PM
http://youtu.be/WO8_n-E6zlQ

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:30 PM
http://youtu.be/WO8_n-E6zlQ

That guy has no business wearing that stache...

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 03:30 PM
Chloe has been thread banned for hurting people's feelings. Do not respond to her posts

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:31 PM
Chloe has been thread banned for hurting people's feelings. Do not respond to her posts

/wrists

sachem
01-05-2015, 03:33 PM
That guy has no business wearing that stache...Without it he would look like he is ten.

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:35 PM
Without it he would look like he is ten.

Better to look ten than to look like he likes ten year olds...

sachem
01-05-2015, 03:36 PM
Better to look ten than to look like he likes ten year olds...lol.........

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 03:37 PM
Can I please be TB'd from this as well? I'm feeling left out.

nic34
01-05-2015, 04:14 PM
Who is charged with enforcing this law? I mean yeah, I know the research thing is a sham as do you and obviously the courts do to. But I don't want our people in harms way or our government spending money to try to enforce these laws.
They are just animals. smart, interesting animals who should be protected where possible but still just animals

Might as well say "it's just air" or "just water".

All are necessary for our survival.

nic34
01-05-2015, 04:16 PM
I will agree that in the last 50-100 years the importance of the planet has become more known to people and more has and will continue to be done, but if just some of the comments on this forum are any indication there are many people that still just can't look past the tips of their own noses in my opinion, and that's just frustrating to me.

Of course you are right, just see my comment above^^^

Can I be TB too now?

Private Pickle
01-05-2015, 04:19 PM
Of course you are right, just see my comment above^^^

Can I be TB too now?


Not before I get mine! Wait your turn!

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 04:21 PM
Stay on topic please

nic34
01-05-2015, 04:54 PM
Sorry PolWatch, we know you're just doing your job..... but.......

The Sage of Main Street
01-05-2015, 04:54 PM
So, in your opinion animals are equal on the spiritual/evolutionary scale to humans? Do you think an Orca would have the same reservations about eating you if the opportunity presented itself? Where do you draw the line? Is a Robin of equal value to a human? A $#@!roach? Just higher mammals?
I'm sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from here. Also, how are they more important to the planet's health than we are? I'm not a big believer that the creatures at the top of the food chain are all that important. If whales don't eat the plankton/ seals/ fish then either something else will or disease will keep the herd's population in check. Eco-eunuchs are misfits out for bitter revenge on normal people for rejecting them. And somehow, I'm not supposed to say, this freaky fringe group has the money and power behind it to get its pound of flesh out of the flesh-eaters.

nic34
01-05-2015, 04:56 PM
Oh, stick your normal people......

The Sage of Main Street
01-05-2015, 05:03 PM
Grow up. Then she would have to quit watching talking-animal cartoons. The foundation of her illusion of moral superiority would crumble. It's easier to feel like you're saving the world if you don't have to live in the real world.

The Sage of Main Street
01-05-2015, 05:08 PM
I have always found it amazing that the biggest complainers about the environment, littering and such, are the biggest litterers. For example, the left, always claiming to be big environmentalists, leave the biggest messes for other people to clean up. Think back to their little get togethers in DC and other places over the course of the last two years. And don't forget OWS last year. THey poop all over the place, carry lice, live with vermin, not to mention criminal activity. Not very good role models. Can you imagine what the world would look like if so-called environ-mentalists got hold of the reins of authority. Reminds me of PETA and other so called Prevention of Cruelty oganizations and their main strategy for caring for animals which means killing them. The Occupuppies do cute pet tricks when performing for the media. Unfortunately for a Limousine Liberal who wants to buy one of them to use as a lapdog, they are impossible to house train.

Matty
01-05-2015, 05:14 PM
Where is Charlie the Tuna?

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 05:21 PM
Then she would have to quit watching talking-animal cartoons. The foundation of her illusion of moral superiority would crumble. It's easier to feel like you're saving the world if you don't have to live in the real world.

Momsapplepie is thread banned. Do not respond to any posts

sachem
01-05-2015, 05:21 PM
Where is Charlie the Tuna?Dead. He got caught in some guy's net.

The Sage of Main Street
01-05-2015, 05:28 PM
Yes, but we all must grow up The celery-chompers are dead meat unless the Sage gets thread-banned too.

PolWatch
01-05-2015, 05:32 PM
Sage has been thread banned....next?

Codename Section
01-05-2015, 05:42 PM
Go, PolWatch go!

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/fe6a3c8d06372c00a5ceed70796b4d84bd645692177f3755d6 d99f9de10a24a6.jpg

silvereyes
01-06-2015, 01:10 AM
Is this a tb record?

sachem
01-06-2015, 01:12 AM
Is this a tb record?I was wondering the same thing.

Peter1469
01-06-2015, 05:44 AM
The Japanese won't be able to ignore this decision - at least in the long run.

midcan5
01-06-2015, 07:09 AM
I'm probably going to be off topic a bit here, but I've always thought if Peta or Greenpeace wanted to stop the destruction of whales all they have to do is go after other Japanese corporations. Juxtapose the smiling Toyota women with a bloody whale being dragged onto a Japanese boat, any number of things would work. Of course MSM being corporate owned and managed would ban you, but hey give it a shot. Full disclosure we are not an animal loving family, my wife always says she loves animals, that is to eat and wear, I was going to get her a T-shirt once that added 'hunt' to that. lol But we are not about cruelty either as we quit eating veal thirty years ago. For the reader Peter Singer will challenge you, I'll leave a youtube below. I do admit again, I sometimes feel I am repeating myself, that the love of animals in America often strikes me as bizarre. Trig standing on a dog made more news than any hungry child has in recent memory or maybe ever.

Australia
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/aus-japan-whale/4783390

learn about whales
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/02/06/philip_hoare_the_whale/index.html

As most know I am a support America and American worker idealist and so personally I'd love to see an awareness of this issue among others.

"A variety of non-tariff barriers have traditionally impeded access to Japan’s automotive market. Overall sales of U.S. made vehicles and automotive parts in Japan remain low, which is a serious concern. The U.S. Government has expressed concern with the overall lack of access to Japan’s automotive market for U.S. automotive companies. Barriers include, but are not limited to, issues relating to standards and certification, the lack of sufficient opportunities for stakeholder input in the development of standards and regulations, barriers that hinder the development of distribution and service networks, and the lack of equivalent opportunities for U.S. models imported under the preferential handling procedure (PHP) certification program to benefit from temporary fiscal incentive programs. The U.S. Government urges Japan to address the full range of barriers in Japan’s automotive market." http://www.ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2013 NTE Japan Final.pdf


http://gawker.com/peter-singer-is-here-to-talk-about-right-and-wrong-1525429055

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av22cRQNBiQ

PS I'm oddly with Sarah on this one. Aaaagghhhhh.....

donttread
01-06-2015, 08:02 AM
Chloe has been thread banned for hurting people's feelings. Do not respond to her posts

That's a joke, right?

PolWatch
01-06-2015, 08:10 AM
no

Matty
01-06-2015, 02:19 PM
Dead. He got caught in some guy's net.


Oh! I thought the whale ate him.

Matty
01-06-2015, 02:23 PM
Go, @PolWatch (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1099) go!

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/fe6a3c8d06372c00a5ceed70796b4d84bd645692177f3755d6 d99f9de10a24a6.jpg
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tR3XY6wfSBw

sachem
01-07-2015, 08:02 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/harpoonless-japanese-whalers-heading-antarctic-govt-082535818.html

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 08:31 PM
Chloe has been un-banned from thread....go & sin no more

Chloe
01-07-2015, 08:33 PM
Chloe has been un-banned from thread....go & sin no more

Awesome, thank you!!

Chloe
01-07-2015, 08:37 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/harpoonless-japanese-whalers-heading-antarctic-govt-082535818.html


Id be curious of the "humane" ways that they plan on capturing these whales alive and then taking skin samples all from their harpoonless harpoon ships. I'll put money on many of those whales never making it back in the water. Also I hope that their request for 333 minke whales per year gets shot down as well, and if it doesn't then sea shepherd will be there once again to make sure they do not get close to reaching their quote as they have been doing for a number of years now.

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 08:38 PM
Perhaps they plan to use a method like the O-search used to tag great whites. They had a small dry dock attached to the boat that the animal was placed on for tagging...then released.

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 08:40 PM
like this:

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.607990545728143770&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

sachem
01-07-2015, 08:41 PM
Id be curious of the "humane" ways that they plan on capturing these whales alive and then taking skin samples all from their harpoonless harpoon ships. I'll put money on many of those whales never making it back in the water. Also I hope that their request for 333 minke whales per year gets shot down as well, and if it doesn't then sea shepherd will be there once again to make sure they do not get close to reaching their quote as they have been doing for a number of years now.Yeah. They are gonna do whatever they want. No real way to stop them. Sea Shepherd will do what they can to lessen their number of kills.

sachem
01-07-2015, 08:43 PM
like this:

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.607990545728143770&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0Yeah. Never thought of that. I have seen such things used on sharks to tag them and stuff.

Chloe
01-07-2015, 08:46 PM
Perhaps they plan to use a method like the O-search used to tag great whites. They had a small dry dock attached to the boat that the animal was placed on for tagging...then released.

Perhaps. If so then it still shows their dishonesty in that if they truly cared about the science of whales then they would have left without harpoons years ago. They are only doing this because they have been proven to be wrong and to be liars and so now they are going to give the world some theater until they can get a whaling quota again.

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 08:50 PM
I suspect they will be under close observation...

Chloe
01-07-2015, 08:52 PM
I suspect they will be under close observation...

Hopefully, although I also worry that if they tag the whales during this time frame then it will only be easier for them to find and kill those whales in the future if they get a new quota approved

sachem
01-07-2015, 08:59 PM
Perhaps. If so then it still shows their dishonesty in that if they truly cared about the science of whales then they would have left without harpoons years ago. They are only doing this because they have been proven to be wrong and to be liars and so now they are going to give the world some theater until they can get a whaling quota again.I think that the world knows this, but I think Sea Shepherd is losing some of it's clout, for lack of a better word. I was watching Whale Wars the other day and Captain Paul Watson was pretty arrogant. At least in my opinion. He has to be more humble. But that doesn't change the wrongness of what the Japanese are doing.

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 09:04 PM
I think the reality shows make just about everyone kinda arrogant. After they have been on TV a while they start thinking they're Paul Newman or something!

sachem
01-07-2015, 09:09 PM
I think the reality shows make just about everyone kinda arrogant. After they have been on TV a while they start thinking they're Paul Newman or something!Yeah. There is some truth to that.

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:10 PM
http://www.whaling.jp/english/

11/12/09 Media Release (http://www.whaling.jp/english/media.html) updated
10/07/07 Media Release updated
08/07/18 Media Release updated
08/03/04 Media Release updated
08/01/22 Publication (isana) updated
08/01/21 Media Release updated
08/01/21 Media Release updated
08/01/15 Media Release updated
08/01/07 Media Release updated
07/03/28 Media Release updated
07/03/26 Publication (isana) updated
07/03/07 Media Release updated
07/03/07 History of whaling updated
07/01/09 Media Release updated
06/12/14 Media Release updated
06/08/24 History of whaling updated
06/04/17 JWA Newsletter updated
06/03/24 News articles updated
06/03/15 News articles updated
06/01/19 News articles updated
06/01/05 Publication updated



Joint Statement on Conviction of Peter Bethune
Institute of Cetacean Research / Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha



Today, Peter Bethune was sentenced to 2 years in prison with a 5-year suspended sentence for the crime of trespassing, vandalism, carrying a knife, obstructing commercial activities, and assault.

The Institute of Cetacean Research (ICR) and Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha welcomed the verdict.

The verdict demonstrates that his actions put the lives of Japanese seamen at risk and he committed a crime.

Bethune’s criminal actions were perpetrated in disregard of a statement adopted at the IWC intersessional meeting in 2008, which called upon Sea Shepherd Conservation Society to refrain from dangerous actions that jeopardize safety at sea, and on its vessels and crews concerned to exercise restraint.

ICR and Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha strongly condemn the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society dangerous and violent actions against Japan’s whale research vessels and crews in the Antarctic and demand that they are stopped immediately.

ICR and Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha call on the Netherlands, which provides Sea Shepherd vessels with a flag, and Australia, which provides Sea Shepherd with port facilities, to take action to stop further criminal acts being committed by this group.

We strongly request that these countries observe their international obligations and deal with the Sea Shepherd in a strict and objective manner.

ENDS

9 December 2011


Safety at Sea lawsuit against SSCS and Paul Watson

Today, Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha and the Institute of Cetacean Research along with research vessels’
Masters filed a lawsuit against the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) and Paul Watson in
the United States.

The Institute of Cetacean Research and Kyodo Senpaku are seeking a court order in the U.S.
District Court in Seattle, Washington that prevents SSCS and its founder Paul Watson from
engaging in activities at sea that could cause injuries to the crews and damage to the vessels.
SSCS is based in Friday Harbor, Washington State on the United States Pacific Coast.

Japan’s whale research program in the Antarctic (JARPA II) is a legitimate program conducted since
2005/2006 under Special Permits granted by the government of Japan under Article 8 of the
International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, and is greatly contributing to the
advancement of scientific knowledge of whale resources in the Antarctic.

Sabotage activities against the research fleet by SSCS and Paul Watson have been escalating over
several years. Their actions are dangerous, life threatening and contrary to International Law
including the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime
Navigation (SUA Convention) as well as to Resolution MSC 303(87) adopted by the Maritime
Safety Committee of the International Maritime Organization and Resolutions passed by the
International Whaling Commission.

The activities perpetrated by SSCS and Paul Watson not only put at risk the safety of the research
vessels at sea but are also affecting the scientific achievement of the JARPA II research program
and therefore cannot be overlooked. Despite tremendous efforts we have paid to prevent these
sabotage activities, they have not stopped, rather, being escalating as described above. Therefore,
we have proceeded with filing a complaint to the United States District Court in Washington State
where SSCS is based, in order to protect the lives of crews and safety of vessels engaging in JARPA
II.
ENDS

For more information contact: Gavin Carter, Washington, DC: +1-571-243-6030

PolWatch
01-07-2015, 09:12 PM
Its no longer a valid order:

ENDS

9 December 2011

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:15 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/harpoonless-japanese-whalers-heading-antarctic-govt-082535818.html

Japan will kill the whales. I don't for a moment doubt it.

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:16 PM
Its no longer a valid order:

ENDS

9 December 2011

Those were just samples to bring us up to date.

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:18 PM
Yeah. There is some truth to that.

These contestants on Survivor and the Amazing race sure know they are in for a lot of real pain just to win.

I enjoy both programs. Those wives programs, not at all. Big Brother, boo.

sachem
01-07-2015, 09:19 PM
Japan will kill the whales. I don't for a moment doubt it.Of course they will.

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:27 PM
http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html





Q1
How many species of whales are there in the world?




There are about 80 species of whales in the world.
Below are the population estimates of some whale species provided by the IWC at present.


Name
Distribution
Population


Minke whales
Southern Hemisphere
761,000



North West Pacific and Okhotsk Sea
25,000



North Atlantic (excluding Canadian East Coast)
149,000


Bowhead whales
Bering-Chukchi- Beaufort Seas stock
8,000


Gray whales
Eastern North Pacific
26,300


Humpback whales
Western North Atlantic
11,570


Blue whales
Southern Hemisphere
400 - 1,400


Fin whales
North Atlantic
47,300





http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q2
Aren't all whales endangered?




No whales have ever been hunted to extinction, nor are they likely to be. Out of all of the 80 species, only a limited number traditionally have been hunted, such as blue whales, fin whales, minke whales, humpback whales, sperm whales and gray whales.

When whales were over-hunted, species such as blue whales and right whales were reduced to very low population levels, but these species now have been fully protected for decades.

Japan strongly believes that they should continue to be protected.
On the other hand, there are species which are abundant enough that marine management is needed, such as the Antarctic and northwestern Pacific minke whales and northwestern Pacific Bryde's whales.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q3
Aren't whales supposed to have a high level of intelligence?




Those who assert that the whale has a higher intelligence base their assertion on the large size of a whale's brain. It is simply natural for a whale which has large head to have a larger brain than those of other animals, but that does not necessarily mean that it has higher intelligence.

In comparing the size of animal brains, we should take into consideration not only its weight but also its proportion to the body weight. The proportion of a blue whale's brain to its body weight is 0.007% on the average, as compared with 1.93% for human beings.

The harbor porpoise has the highest proportion of 0.85% among cetaceans. Does that mean that the intelligence of a harbor porpoise is half the level of a human being and that of a blue whale is one hundredth of a harbor porpoise's? It is not necessarily so. It is not possible to determine the intelligence level with the brain's proportion to the body weight.

The late Dr. E.J. Slijper, who was a world authority on cetaceans, said "...it seems improbable that an animal which propels itself mainly with its tail should need a more highly developed brain than, for instance, a monkey which uses all its limbs so skillfully." On a similar note, Dr. Margaret Klinowska, a professor of Cambridge University and a member of the Specialist Group of the IUCN Species Survival Commission, said that "In most species of cetaceans, the brain is neither very large nor especially complex," adding that "whales betray little evidence of behavioral complexity beyond that of a herd of cows or deer."


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif


http://www.whaling.jp/image/pagetop.gif (http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html)


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/qa_beyon.gif




Q1
If whaling is allowed again, what's to guarantee that over-exploitation won't occur again?




Over-exploitation could not happen again because of the stronger regulations and checks and balances that would accompany any reintroduction.

The International Whaling Commission (http://www.whaling.jp/english/iwc.html) would control whaling if it were allowed again, just as it controls the bans now.
Importantly the reason that many countries were involved in whaling previously was for whale byproducts, such as oil and bone, in contrast to countries and communities like Japan, Norway, the native American Indians and many island nations that whaled for food.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q2
Is whaling still occurring today, even though there is a global ban?




There are three types of whaling being carried out:

Aboriginal subsistence whaling
The International Whaling Commission authorizes this whaling. The IWC now authorizes catches under its aboriginal subsistence whaling scheme for:

1.Bowhead whales in Alaska(US) and Chukotka(Russia).
2.Gray whales in Washington(US) and Chukotka(Russia).
3.Fin whales and Minke whales in Greenland (Denmark).
4.Humpback whales in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines.
However, Japan's tradition of whaling is not recognised by the IWC.

Small-type whaling outside of the IWC's jurisdiction
Catches of small cetaceans including Baird's beaked whales, Pilot whales and Dall's porpoises occur within Japanese coastal waters. These catches are outside the International Whaling Commission's jurisdiction. The Government of Japan strictly regulates these operations. Small cetaceans caught either in directed fisheries or incidentally in other fisheries are used for human consumption in many countries around the world.

Whaling by non-IWC member countries
Catches by non-IWC members include bowhead whales in Canada, sperm whales in Indonesia. These countries are not bound by the IWC regulations, as they are not members.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q3
The whaling debate has shifted from scientific discussion to arguments on animal rights as perceived by certain countries and groups. Since most Western nations are opposed to whaling, why doesn't Japan just abandon its tradition?




We cannot agree with this view. Asking Japan to abandon this part of its culture would compare to Australians being asked to stop eating meat pies, Americans being asked to stop eating hamburgers and the English being asked to go without fish and chips.

Attitudes toward animals are a part of national cultures. No nations should try to impose their attitudes on others.

Anti-whaling countries regard whales as sacred, and want the ban on whaling to continue on the grounds that a humane killing method is not ensured or that whaling itself is unethical.

But it is questionable whether the whaling conducted by westerners in the past was humane or ethical. To this argument, the westerners might respond that was the very reason for them to have halted whaling.

But this argument is nothing but a misconception. Whaling in western countries was conducted to collect whale oil, whether it was ancient sailing-boat-type whaling or modern whaling. It died out naturally as it lost its industrial importance after petroleum became more readily available.

On the other hand, whaling in Japan was mainly carried out for the production of meat, and because of strong demand for whalemeat in the domestic market, whaling can still continue to be viable.

Not all western countries are anti-whaling although anti-whaling attitudes are prevalent. Generally Anglo-Saxon countries take an anti-whaling position, but Iceland, Norway and Denmark regard whales as food.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q4
There have been media reports of whale meat on the market in Japan from endangered species. What is the situation?




Products from species of large whale other than minke whale in the market could have originated from several sources including meat stored frozen from before the moratorium on commercial whaling, by-products from past scientific catches by Iceland and Norway, stranding, or by-catch.

Illegal catches or trade are unlikely sources since the Government of Japan has strict regulations that prohibits whaling for species regulated by the IWC in compliance with the moratorium on commercial whaling and because the import of whale meat from non-IWC member countries is prohibited by regulation.

DNA analyses of samples of whale products currently distributed in the Japanese markets conducted by the Fisheries Agency of Japan and Traffic-Japan have not substantiated any illegal catches or trade.

Media reports of illegal whale meat in Japanese markets have come from DNA analyses conducted by scientists from New Zealand and the U.S.A. Contrary to standard scientific practice, samples used as the basis for their reports have not been provided for verification.

There are other matters of scientific procedures that seriously question the credibility of these reports. The IWC's Scientific Committee has rejected consideration of some of these reports.

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:31 PM
Chloe is back. Hip hip hurrah. Glad to see you smart woman.

sachem
01-07-2015, 09:37 PM
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV_n-WJmOWfSSSDX357LksZTmg6h8xoV4T9877-8K2tds6VW0Iqw

Bob
01-07-2015, 09:50 PM
This article in my view is very fair.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2014/02/01/environment/japan-why-kill-whales-off-antarctica/#.VK3uc9JdU08

Since 1986, following a vote by its members, the International Whaling Commission has had in place a moratorium on all commercial whaling in the Antarctic. However, the Japanese government at once homed in on small print allowing research whaling there, and forthwith licensed its own Southern Ocean program. Japanese catchers have been hunting whales there ever since, and selling meat and blubber for human consumption, However, there has been precious little research to show for it all as far as I know, and fewer and fewer Japanese eat whale nowadays — so frozen stocks continue to pile up at great expense in terms of refrigeration.
In the meantime, because of this, Japan’s international image worsens each year, while Sea Shepherd gains more supporters, funding and media coverage.
As I have been saying publicly for quite some time now, I would like to see the killing of whales in the Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctic cease. It is not needed, either for research or to feed people in Japan, and — weighed against all the furore and worldwide fanfare of disgust — the money, effort and stubborn domestic media coverage that’s involved in these futile expeditions does this country nothing but harm.
In fact, all the money and effort Japan’s pointless hunts consume would be far better used for genuine Antarctic research — especially considering all the questions and concerns raised about changes in global weather patterns and threats to the entire marine environment.
Hence I sincerely urge that Japan continues with an active and dynamic marine research program in the Antarctic, preferably with international cooperation and input — but it does not have to be lethal for the whales, nor for seals or penguins, from which data and DNA samples can be collected by proven and harmless means.
However, if Japan chooses to insist that whaling culture and techniques need to be preserved, then I believe the correct course is through a transparent and internationally monitored coastal whaling program centered on traditional whaling communities such as Taiji, Ayukawa in Miyagi Prefecture and Abashiri on the Sea of Okhotsk in northern Hokkaido.
And should Sea Shepherd and their ilk want to flaunt their antics there, they’ll find the Japanese Coast Guard is very well equipped to deal with them.

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 02:22 AM
After this court order international pressure will stop the practice. Even the US has bowed down to customary international law over actual national security issues. Whaling is only a pride issue to the Japs.

PolWatch
01-08-2015, 02:28 AM
The article about ships going out without harpoons makes me think this is a pride issue. Is it racist to say that 'saving face' is a very Asian thing to do?

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 02:40 AM
The article about ships going out without harpoons makes me think this is a pride issue. Is it racist to say that 'saving face' is a very Asian thing to do? no

sachem
01-08-2015, 07:10 AM
After this court order international pressure will stop the practice. Even the US has bowed down to customary international law over actual national security issues. Whaling is only a pride issue to the Japs.It would be good if that happened.

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 08:09 AM
It would be good if that happened.

It will. It will just take time.

Common Sense
01-08-2015, 09:43 AM
After this court order international pressure will stop the practice. Even the US has bowed down to customary international law over actual national security issues. Whaling is only a pride issue to the Japs.

I think it's a little more than pride...

http://shizuokasushi.com/whale-meat/

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 11:13 AM
I think it's a little more than pride...

http://shizuokasushi.com/whale-meat/

They will have to learn to do without it. :smiley:

Common Sense
01-08-2015, 11:24 AM
They will have to learn to do without it. :smiley:

Apparently their appetite for the stuff is waning...

PolWatch
01-08-2015, 08:39 PM
Momsapplepie has PM'd me 4 times this evening for a banner announcing she is unbanned from this thread. Please watch this thread for what has to be extremely important & interesting information.

sachem
01-08-2015, 08:41 PM
Will be waiting with baited breath.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 08:54 PM
Great! Thank you for being fair, that's probably the best news for the group today!
Now, back to Whales
I'd like to know what makes anyone thing that they can stop another country's cultural tradition?
I think we've tried that in the middle east and it hasn't worked out so well.
What about Japanese cultural rights? Eating whale meat in Japan is a venerable tradition; it is an element of Japanese cuisine that is bound up with Japanese culture and highly prized by the Japanese people. The Japanese have been on those islands for thousands of years and whaling is part of their native tradition.
The Japanese would be far better served applying for a catch limit based upon their tradition and culture.
As far as it goes, their traditions are no different than say the eskimos who kill seals.

Private Pickle
01-08-2015, 08:56 PM
Great! Thank you for being fair, that's probably the best news for the group today!
Now, back to Whales
I'd like to know what makes anyone thing that they can stop another country's cultural tradition?
I think we've tried that in the middle east and it hasn't worked out so well.
What about Japanese cultural rights? Eating whale meat in Japan is a venerable tradition; it is an element of Japanese cuisine that is bound up with Japanese culture and highly prized by the Japanese people. The Japanese have been on those islands for thousands of years and whaling is part of their native tradition.
The Japanese would be far better served applying for a catch limit based upon their tradition and culture.
As far as it goes, their traditions are no different than say the eskimos who kill seals.When I was six my brother got a Twinkie and I didn't. I told my mom that it wasn't fair. My mom said life wasn't fair. My mom was right.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:04 PM
Yes, that's true, but since the topic is whaling, we can't talk about equality. So anyway, what do you think of the Japanese applying for a catch limit based on their Cultural traditions?

sachem
01-08-2015, 09:04 PM
Will be waiting with baited breath.Sad to say it's a letdown.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:05 PM
Please stay on topic.

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:08 PM
Yes, that's true, but since the topic is whaling, we can't talk about equality. So anyway, what do you think of the Japanese applying for a catch limit based on their Cultural traditions?

Not all traditions last or are meant to last.

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 09:12 PM
Customary international law. Much more effective than treaty based law. It is basically peer pressure with economic sanctions to tighten up the target. The Japs are trying to expand militarily and the world is going to block them until they stop their whale slaughter.


Great! Thank you for being fair, that's probably the best news for the group today!
Now, back to Whales
I'd like to know what makes anyone thing that they can stop another country's cultural tradition?
I think we've tried that in the middle east and it hasn't worked out so well.
What about Japanese cultural rights? Eating whale meat in Japan is a venerable tradition; it is an element of Japanese cuisine that is bound up with Japanese culture and highly prized by the Japanese people. The Japanese have been on those islands for thousands of years and whaling is part of their native tradition.
The Japanese would be far better served applying for a catch limit based upon their tradition and culture.
As far as it goes, their traditions are no different than say the eskimos who kill seals.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:13 PM
and who determines that? Wouldn't that be up to the followers of the tradition?

sachem
01-08-2015, 09:14 PM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTealH78Heojaiw9CE-zLFg82zBYN7lbWVKH1hk0HpUpWB7djLc

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 09:16 PM
and who determines that? Wouldn't that be up to the followers of the tradition?

The international community, duh.

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:16 PM
and who determines that? Wouldn't that be up to the followers of the tradition?

No not really. Societal pressure, tragedy, maturity, laws, new generations, an epiphany, among others things can change long standing traditions even if the followers aren't completely happy or on board.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:20 PM
Oh so we can tell others what they can and cannot do as their traditions by squeezing off their support, yet we support other traditions such as American Indians allowed to hunt or fish without limit, while people who aren't Native Americans are severely limited to control the stock? Ok got it. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

PolWatch
01-08-2015, 09:20 PM
I wonder if cannibals gave up their traditions without an argument?

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:21 PM
Oh so we can tell others what they can and cannot do as their traditions by squeezing off their support, yet we support other traditions such as American Indians allowed to hunt or fish without limit, while people who aren't Native Americans are severely limited to control the stock? Ok got it. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Do you truly, truly, sincerely care about their ability to kill and eat whales?

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:26 PM
I wonder if cannibals gave up their traditions without an argument?
Who knows about cannibals, but international pressure sure hasn't stop beheadings, stoning or hangings in the Middle east either has it? But then we're only talking about humans there.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:28 PM
Do you truly, truly, sincerely care about their ability to kill and eat whales?
Do you really truly care about allowing people their culture and traditions?

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:28 PM
Do you really truly care about allowing people their culture and traditions?

I care more about whales and a balanced and healthy ecosystem than I do what's on their menu in a random restaurant.

sachem
01-08-2015, 09:29 PM
Who knows about cannibals, but international pressure sure hasn't stop beheadings, stoning or hangings in the Middle east either has it? But then we're only talking about humans there.We are working on it. Well, some of us are.

PolWatch
01-08-2015, 09:39 PM
I thought we were talking about changing traditional eating habits...I don't think they eat victims in the Middle East after they behead them...do they?

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:43 PM
I care more about whales and a balanced and healthy ecosystem than I do what's on their menu in a random restaurant.
Then you should be more concerned about studies that show
"It is common sense in wildlife resource management that excessive protection of only one part of an ecosystem, especially the component at the top of the food chain, except when it is at a very low stock level, will impair the balance of the ecosystem as a whole and will invite instability of the resources in question."- IWC

Bob
01-08-2015, 09:46 PM
After this court order international pressure will stop the practice. Even the US has bowed down to customary international law over actual national security issues. Whaling is only a pride issue to the Japs.

We will see. We will see, won't we?

Private Pickle
01-08-2015, 09:46 PM
I thought we were talking about changing traditional eating habits...I don't think they eat victims in the Middle East after they behead them...do they?

I'm not into Middle Eastern myself.

sachem
01-08-2015, 09:47 PM
I thought we were talking about changing traditional eating habits...I don't think they eat victims in the Middle East after they behead them...do they?I hope not.

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:47 PM
Then you should be more concerned about studies that show
"It is common sense in wildlife resource management that excessive protection of only one part of an ecosystem, especially the component at the top of the food chain, except when it is at a very low stock level, will impair the balance of the ecosystem as a whole and will invite instability of the resources in question."- IWC


Funny how the supposed top species in the food chain determines the "management" (i.e. killing) of all life on the planet. Kinda a funny thing to have such responsibility for when we are the most irresponsible species on the planet. Also seems a bit arrogant and irresponsible to me. It also seems very, what's the word, business focused, and not so much life focused.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:51 PM
It would be called reality focused. Many species have been brought back from the brink of extinction because of management. Is that irresponsible enough for you?

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 09:52 PM
We will see. We will see, won't we?


Yes. But international pressure has always been against the Japs. I would think the decision would increase that pressure. To think otherwise would be irrational. Although we should never rule that out.

Chloe
01-08-2015, 09:53 PM
It would be called reality focused. Many species have been brought back from the brink of extinction because of management. Is that irresponsible enough for you?

They were brought to the brink by us. It would therefore be OUR responsibility to help them recover.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 09:58 PM
In some cases that is true, in some cases not, but denying that wildlife management has been a large part of preserving resources world wide is inane. As I asked before, what is wrong with the Japanese applying for a catch limit based on their traditions?

Animal Mother
01-08-2015, 10:00 PM
In some cases that is true, in some cases not, but denying that wildlife management has been a large part of preserving resources world wide is inane. As I asked before, what is wrong with the Japanese applying for a catch limit based on their traditions?

What's wrong with eating deep fried bald eagle for Thanksgiving?

Chloe
01-08-2015, 10:00 PM
In some cases that is true, in some cases not, but denying that wildlife management has been a large part of preserving resources world wide is inane. As I asked before, what is wrong with the Japanese applying for a catch limit based on their traditions?

Because killing for profit is not something we should be endorsing or defending.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 10:01 PM
What's wrong with eating deep fried bald eagle for Thanksgiving?
Bald eagles are a protected species. The whales that are taken are not.

Animal Mother
01-08-2015, 10:02 PM
Because killing for profit is not something we should be endorsing or defending.

Hey-hey-now, you're trying to put me out of a job!

Bob
01-08-2015, 10:02 PM
Do you really truly care about allowing people their culture and traditions?

Imagine they prevented us from eating turkey, chickens or pork. A lot of canadian bacon eaters would be furious.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 10:03 PM
Because killing for profit is not something we should be endorsing or defending.
Not a lot of profit in such a limited number of catches is there?

Animal Mother
01-08-2015, 10:03 PM
Bald eagles are a protected species. The whales that are taken are not.

They are a protected species, that's why they can only be taken for research not for eating.

Animal Mother
01-08-2015, 10:04 PM
Imagine they prevented us from eating turkey, chickens or pork. A lot of canadian bacon eaters would be furious.

Tell you what, why don't you grow some whales on your ranch and eat those?

Chloe
01-08-2015, 10:05 PM
Not a lot of profit in such a limited number of catches is there?

Thanks to activism, nope, and the less profit they make the better.

sachem
01-08-2015, 10:07 PM
Hey-hey-now, you're trying to put me out of a job!You're a Japanese whaler?

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 10:08 PM
Q2
How often is research conducted?




Japan currently conducts the whale sampling research in the Antarctic and the northwest Pacific.

There is need to carry out the research every year as the number of samples collected and the area surveyed by one cruise per year is very limited, particularly given the size of the Antarctic Ocean.

The data necessary for the management of the whale resources must show changes in trends over time. Continuous sampling is indispensable to enhance the accuracy of the research.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q3
What are the types of research into whales?




There are two broad types of research which are conducted into whales. Non-lethal and lethal.

There are advantages and disadvantages associated with both lethal and non-lethal methods. For example, non-lethal methods are inadequate for population research of whales, as well as other marine life, but is suitable for examining whale behaviour in slow-swimming species.

A large range of information is needed for the management and conservation of whales, such as population, age structure, growth rates, age of maturity, reproductive rates, feeding, nutrition and levels of contaminants. This type of important information cannot be obtained through small DNA samples or analysis of organochlorine, but only through lethal research.

The Japanese whale research program has obtained valuable information on whales by using non-lethal and lethal research.It has also enabled us to calculate the amount of fish consumed by whales - which is approximately between 280 million tonnes and 500 million tonnes per year. In contrast, humans harvest around 90 million tonnes of fish each year.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q4
Benefits from Japan's research program have not been promoted so it must be just a cover for whaling.




This is not true. There have been dozens of scientific reports and information made available to the public in brochures on the findings of the Japanese research program.

The difficulty faced by the Japanese researchers is the interest of western media, who have failed to run stories in newspapers etc about the results. The results are available on the The Institute of Cetacean Research Website: http://www.icrwhale.org/eng-index.htm



http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html

Chloe
01-08-2015, 10:10 PM
Q2
How often is research conducted?




Japan currently conducts the whale sampling research in the Antarctic and the northwest Pacific.

There is need to carry out the research every year as the number of samples collected and the area surveyed by one cruise per year is very limited, particularly given the size of the Antarctic Ocean.

The data necessary for the management of the whale resources must show changes in trends over time. Continuous sampling is indispensable to enhance the accuracy of the research.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q3
What are the types of research into whales?




There are two broad types of research which are conducted into whales. Non-lethal and lethal.

There are advantages and disadvantages associated with both lethal and non-lethal methods. For example, non-lethal methods are inadequate for population research of whales, as well as other marine life, but is suitable for examining whale behaviour in slow-swimming species.

A large range of information is needed for the management and conservation of whales, such as population, age structure, growth rates, age of maturity, reproductive rates, feeding, nutrition and levels of contaminants. This type of important information cannot be obtained through small DNA samples or analysis of organochlorine, but only through lethal research.

The Japanese whale research program has obtained valuable information on whales by using non-lethal and lethal research.It has also enabled us to calculate the amount of fish consumed by whales - which is approximately between 280 million tonnes and 500 million tonnes per year. In contrast, humans harvest around 90 million tonnes of fish each year.


http://www.whaling.jp/english/image/10pix.gif

Q4
Benefits from Japan's research program have not been promoted so it must be just a cover for whaling.




This is not true. There have been dozens of scientific reports and information made available to the public in brochures on the findings of the Japanese research program.

The difficulty faced by the Japanese researchers is the interest of western media, who have failed to run stories in newspapers etc about the results. The results are available on the The Institute of Cetacean Research Website: http://www.icrwhale.org/eng-index.htm




Good scientific research being done by people that genuinely care about the species they research do not kill it and then profit off its body. The whalers and their benefactors are unethical liars.

Chloe
01-08-2015, 10:11 PM
Hey-hey-now, you're trying to put me out of a job!


10117

PolWatch
01-08-2015, 10:12 PM
Please adhere to the rules when posting links

8. You must provide a link when quoting an article and follow fair use guidelines (you are permitted to copy and paste two to three paragraphs).

Animal Mother
01-08-2015, 10:13 PM
Chloe

I'm busy right now but maybe later.

momsapplepie
01-08-2015, 10:14 PM
In the research program, the vessels are run on a predesigned track formulated by scientists, and conduct surveys and collects specimens such as earplug and ovaries. After scientific examination and removal of tissue and organ samples, the remains of the whales are frozen and marketed in compliance with the provisions of the Convention, which forbid any part of the carcass to be wasted. However, as the cost of research is expensive, the proceeds from sales of whale meat and parts alone cannot cover the costs. The Government of Japan pays the remainder of the costs.

The research is carried out by the Institute of Cetacean Research (ICR), a semi-governmental organization of the Japan Fisheries Agency, established in 1987.
http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html

Again, NO PROFIT. and again their research and data is published. The results are available on the The Institute of Cetacean Research Website: http://www.icrwhale.org/eng-index.htm

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 10:16 PM
You're a Japanese whaler?

Oh no. He is taking Chloe on an anti-whaler assault. Much ass will be kicked. And love..., but that is another story. :shocked:

Peter1469
01-08-2015, 10:17 PM
10117

That is foreplay. :smiley:

sachem
01-08-2015, 10:17 PM
Oh no. He is taking Chloe on an anti-whaler assault. Much ass will be kicked. And love..., but that is another story. :shocked:I love a happy ending.