PDA

View Full Version : Should a 17 year old be blocked from suicide?



Bob
01-09-2015, 03:28 PM
In this matter, this is over a 17 year old that has cancer. She wants to die.

https://www.yahoo.com/health/should-a-17-year-old-be-allowed-to-choose-death-107518648817.html

Should A 17-Year-Old Be Allowed To Choose Death?
Jennifer Gerson Uffalussy (http://www.twitter.com/jennyalyse)January 8, 2015






https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w500/6d8d3ff2fd12dad4761072df45aa571b34cb0fed.jpg
Cassandra C., pictured here with her mother Jackie Fortin, is being forced by the state of Connecticut to undergo chemo against her will. But the odds are pretty high that it would save her life. (Photo: CBSTV)
Does a 17-year-old have the right to not only make choices about her own medical treatment, but to do so in a way almost guaranteed to end in death?
This is the question that was just decided in Connecticut, where the state has taken custody of a 17-year old resident who is refusing chemotherapy treatment for herHodgkin lymphoma.

Redrose
01-09-2015, 03:34 PM
I'm not convinced she wants to die, but she doesn't want them poisoning her body with chemicals. I agree.

I've known too many people with cancer that had their bodies bombarded with chemo and radiation, suffer terribly from it and still die. Some even receied the wrong chemo cocktail, which hurt more than helped.

Let her make her own choice for her body.

nic34
01-09-2015, 03:35 PM
Her choice.

Common Sense
01-09-2015, 03:35 PM
That's a tough one...she's not an adult.

Peter1469
01-09-2015, 03:36 PM
I vote none of the above.

Chemo is a killer by itself. Homeopathic treatment may help.

Ravens Fan
01-09-2015, 03:36 PM
I'm not convinced she wants to die, but she doesn't want them poisoning her body with chemicals. I agree.

I've known too many people with cancer that had their bodies bombarded with chemo and radiation, suffer terribly from it and still die. Some even receied the wrong chemo cocktail, which hurt more than helped.

Let her make her own choice for her body.

^^^ exactly. It's her body, her life, her choice.

PolWatch
01-09-2015, 03:38 PM
This is something that is a private, personal decision. The girl and her family should make that choice.

The Xl
01-09-2015, 03:39 PM
She's old enough to make that choice. She's biologically no different than an 18 year old, to deny her that right because of some arbitrary number is ridiculous

sachem
01-09-2015, 03:40 PM
I have a tough time with this one. I just don't know. I will go with no for now.

Redrose
01-09-2015, 03:50 PM
My 42 year old Godchild has stage 4 breast cancer. Two years ago they aggressively treated her, radical mastectomy two dozen lymphnodes removed, chemo, chest expander. She looked awful, felt awful. Cancer spread. More chemo, more pain. Cancer spread, now radiation, 100% bedridden, excruciating pain. Prognosis: 6 months maybe. She doesn't look anything like her normal self and she knows it, and it hurts.

Maybe she would have been better off doing nothing, having her last years un-mutilated, pain free and die on her terms.

I'm convinced we're guinea pigs for some of these treatments.

sachem
01-09-2015, 03:54 PM
My 42 year old Godchild has stage 4 breast cancer. Two years ago they aggressively treated her, radical mastectomy two dozen lymphnodes removed, chemo, chest expander. She looked awful, felt awful. Cancer spread. More chemo, more pain. Cancer spread, now radiation, 100% bedridden, excruciating pain. Prognosis: 6 months maybe. She doesn't look anything like her normal self and she knows it, and it hurts.

Maybe she would have been better off doing nothing, having her last years un-mutilated, pain free and die on her terms.

I'm convinced we're guinea pigs for some of these treatments.We are guinea pigs to an extent. And treatment can be horrible. No doubt.

Peter1469
01-09-2015, 03:54 PM
Under Connecticut law the State can take guardianship over her and force the treatment. And her age isn't that much of an issue. They can do it to adults as well.

Adelaide
01-09-2015, 09:24 PM
In Canada you are completely "medically emancipated" at age 16, or at least in Ontario (it may differ). It makes sense to me. I had to get medical care a few times that I didn't want my parents knowing about or worrying about, and my medical decisions were rational rather than irrational as theirs would have been. I was still their kid, but I had the maturity to make my own decisions. I would lower the age to 14 to be honest.

A 17 year old who is dying should be able to make their own decision.

Redrose
01-09-2015, 09:44 PM
We are guinea pigs to an extent. And treatment can be horrible. No doubt.


I thought about this alot, I have known many, many people with cancer, I cannot think of one who survived more than a year or two past surgery and chemo, not one. I do, however, know two who were diagnosed and did nothing. One lived 8 years and the other 10 years after the diagnosis. They lived on their terms and didn't make the medical and pharmaceutical industries wealthy.

Bob
01-09-2015, 10:13 PM
My 42 year old Godchild has stage 4 breast cancer. Two years ago they aggressively treated her, radical mastectomy two dozen lymphnodes removed, chemo, chest expander. She looked awful, felt awful. Cancer spread. More chemo, more pain. Cancer spread, now radiation, 100% bedridden, excruciating pain. Prognosis: 6 months maybe. She doesn't look anything like her normal self and she knows it, and it hurts.

Maybe she would have been better off doing nothing, having her last years un-mutilated, pain free and die on her terms.

I'm convinced we're guinea pigs for some of these treatments.

A cousin melted down from maybe 200 # (female) to 75-80 pounds evading cancer treatment. i dunno. I vote to save her life.

Bob
01-09-2015, 10:24 PM
I thought about this alot, I have known many, many people with cancer, I cannot think of one who survived more than a year or two past surgery and chemo, not one. I do, however, know two who were diagnosed and did nothing. One lived 8 years and the other 10 years after the diagnosis. They lived on their terms and didn't make the medical and pharmaceutical industries wealthy.

I have previously eulogized Silver Witch. She and I had a rocky start and decided e mail works. We got to be very good e mail pals. She told me she had stage 4 ovarian. When she found out, she was already stage 4. I found I panicked when she stopped replying to my e mail. Sure was an empty feeling. I know what she looked like since she sent a photo. We never tried to meet up though but i sure enjoyed her a lot.

Silver remarried and had not been married to the guy all that long. Too danged bad.

sachem
01-09-2015, 10:26 PM
I thought about this alot, I have known many, many people with cancer, I cannot think of one who survived more than a year or two past surgery and chemo, not one. I do, however, know two who were diagnosed and did nothing. One lived 8 years and the other 10 years after the diagnosis. They lived on their terms and didn't make the medical and pharmaceutical industries wealthy.It isn't so much the refusing treatment, as a nurse I have seen that happen often, as it is her age. I still see her as being a child. I'm not sure she could make the decision to refuse treatment competently.

Bob
01-09-2015, 10:32 PM
While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment.
Related: Overdosing On Caffeine Is A Deadly Trend In Teens (https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-sudden-death-of-18-year-old-logan-stiner-103108598762.html)
“Hodgkin lymphoma is a very treatable cancer,” says Rohan Ramakrishna, MD, a neurosurgeon and surgical neurooncologist at Weill Cornell Medical College and New York Presbyterian Hospital. He notes that “to not want to pursue any therapy at all” isn’t necessarily a “rational” choice given the success rates of treatment with this type of cancer. “It would be one thing if someone has recurrent cancer, isn’t responding to chemotherapy,” says Ramakrishna, but as this is not the case for Cassandra, “to not want to pursue any therapy” is an unusual choice within the norms of “American-style medicine.”

Bob
01-09-2015, 10:35 PM
It isn't so much the refusing treatment, as a nurse I have seen that happen often, as it is her age. I still see her as being a child. I'm not sure she could make the decision to refuse treatment competently.

This from the article makes it seem she should not be afraid of the treatment.

While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment.
Related: Overdosing On Caffeine Is A Deadly Trend In Teens (https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-sudden-death-of-18-year-old-logan-stiner-103108598762.html)
“Hodgkin lymphoma is a very treatable cancer,” says Rohan Ramakrishna, MD, a neurosurgeon and surgical neurooncologist at Weill Cornell Medical College and New York Presbyterian Hospital. He notes that “to not want to pursue any therapy at all” isn’t necessarily a “rational” choice given the success rates of treatment with this type of cancer. “It would be one thing if someone has recurrent cancer, isn’t responding to chemotherapy,” says Ramakrishna, but as this is not the case for Cassandra, “to not want to pursue any therapy” is an unusual choice within the norms of “American-style medicine.”

PolWatch
01-09-2015, 10:36 PM
I'm torn on the subject. As a mother, I would want to try anything...as a human I can understand not wanting to endure the treatments, etc. with little chance of improvement. Like Rose, I knew someone who was told they had about 1 year and refused treatment. I know he lived at least 10 more years before I lost track of the family.

Matty
01-09-2015, 10:39 PM
I cannot help but wonder if this teen was influenced by the most recent young woman who chose to die!

Redrose
01-09-2015, 10:40 PM
I cannot help but wonder if this teen was influenced by the most recent young woman who chose to die!

Quite possibly.

PolWatch
01-09-2015, 10:47 PM
I have never agreed with courts forcing people to undergo treatments against their religion. I think this is similar. The girl has decided she does not want the poison (how she referred to it) in her body. We either own our bodies or the state owns us. I would have a problem accepting my child's decision but this girl is almost 18...legally an adult.

Bob
01-09-2015, 11:04 PM
I'm torn on the subject. As a mother, I would want to try anything...as a human I can understand not wanting to endure the treatments, etc. with little chance of improvement. Like Rose, I knew someone who was told they had about 1 year and refused treatment. I know he lived at least 10 more years before I lost track of the family.

See, this girl only knows, from second hand thinking, how it would be for her. She may already have a death wish. She needs a dose of Dr. Phil.

Dark Mistress
01-09-2015, 11:24 PM
I thought about this alot, I have known many, many people with cancer, I cannot think of one who survived more than a year or two past surgery and chemo, not one. I do, however, know two who were diagnosed and did nothing. One lived 8 years and the other 10 years after the diagnosis. They lived on their terms and didn't make the medical and pharmaceutical industries wealthy.

I am very opposed to chemo treatment as mainstream, but I know two individuals who are still living well after doing chemo. I also know individuals who died. One of my friends got chemo in her 30s and again another decade later. She underwent chemo both times. It has been many decades since and she gets sick all the time. Her memory struggles, but she is a phenomenal woman and accomplishes more than I could ever hope to in a day. She is very much into alternative medicine and witch doctors. However, she is cancer free to date.

If I were diagnosed with cancer and surgery was not an option I would look into every alternative method I could find FIRST before even considering chemo. Even then, I wouldn't want to do it.

Dark Mistress
01-10-2015, 12:47 PM
See, this girl only knows, from second hand thinking, how it would be for her. She may already have a death wish. She needs a dose of Dr. Phil.

Few people know first hand how chemo would be for us. I don't think she has a death wish at all. I think she doesn't want to endure chemo not because she wants to die, but because she doesn't want to put the "poison" into her body. I don't blame her. After we did a section on cancer and treatments in a college science course I took a few years ago I determined I was no pro-chemo. Now, if I had a child with cancer that would be a harder decisions than for myself. However a 17 year old child is a bit different than a 5 year old.

Are they interested in trying anything else? Now, while this girl is essentially locked up in the hospital she can't even attempt any other course of action in regards to treatment and her cancer. I don't believe that is right. Western medicine is being crammed down this family's throat and they should be able to choose and decide what they want to do to treat this girl. This mother is leaving it up to her daughter because she thinks she is intelligent and mature enough to decide. Nothing wrong with that. By going into a hospital you throw away a lot of rights. I only go there if I have to. I only take my kids there if I have to.

Bob
01-10-2015, 03:35 PM
I have previously eulogized Silver Witch. She and I had a rocky start and decided e mail works. We got to be very good e mail pals. She told me she had stage 4 ovarian. When she found out, she was already stage 4. I found I panicked when she stopped replying to my e mail. Sure was an empty feeling. I know what she looked like since she sent a photo. We never tried to meet up though but i sure enjoyed her a lot.

Silver remarried and had not been married to the guy all that long. Too danged bad.

Though she did not take my advice, she asked me about my opinion of kitchen ranges when she added onto her home in Telluride. Though she lived close to Tampa, FL, she had a large home in New Orleans that the storm never hurt. That was the home of her husband who died at their island home in the Caribbean. The home at St. Lucia was about 5,000 sq ft i believe. She used to piss off Democrats but in a nice way. Still they hated her guts. The range she picked cost a hell of a lot more than any i recommended. I had never known of that brand since it cost her about $15,000 which to me was too much money. I looked it up and it was for the very rich. Since the Colorado home and the New Orleans home came to her via a marriage, though i don't know, i hope she made sure it went to his children for their estate. She was super kind and I can see her doing that. The guy she was married to upon her death had plenty of money so he would not need those two properties. RIP Silver.

I said what I could on the young girl. I believe the youth ought to try to live. She is the captain of her body and soul but it sure is uncool to wish she died as she wishes to. Too often you find those who tried to kill themselves later admit they are very happy they failed. She has one chance to live. She will die at some point but why not be enjoyable to her family.

The Xl
01-10-2015, 03:38 PM
Like I said before, a 17 year old is effectively a biological adult capable of making an informed decision. There shouldn't be a controversy here

Bob
01-10-2015, 03:47 PM
As I recall, Silver purchased a Viking range in case you ladies plan to buy a new range.

http://blog.yaleappliance.com/bid/84238/The-5-Best-Luxury-Appliance-Brands-Reviews-Ratings

Bob
01-10-2015, 03:49 PM
Like I said before, a 17 year old is effectively a biological adult capable of making an informed decision. There shouldn't be a controversy here

In many ways that is true. But death is final. And her loss to her family is forever. The doctors claim she would live and be cured.

Bob
01-10-2015, 03:53 PM
Few people know first hand how chemo would be for us. I don't think she has a death wish at all. I think she doesn't want to endure chemo not because she wants to die, but because she doesn't want to put the "poison" into her body. I don't blame her. After we did a section on cancer and treatments in a college science course I took a few years ago I determined I was no pro-chemo. Now, if I had a child with cancer that would be a harder decisions than for myself. However a 17 year old child is a bit different than a 5 year old.

Are they interested in trying anything else? Now, while this girl is essentially locked up in the hospital she can't even attempt any other course of action in regards to treatment and her cancer. I don't believe that is right. Western medicine is being crammed down this family's throat and they should be able to choose and decide what they want to do to treat this girl. This mother is leaving it up to her daughter because she thinks she is intelligent and mature enough to decide. Nothing wrong with that. By going into a hospital you throw away a lot of rights. I only go there if I have to. I only take my kids there if I have to.

I suck big time when it comes to medical matters. The typical woman knows so much more about this than I know I don't even try to compete.

What will you think if the treatment fixes her? What if she has moments of discomfort or distress but all in all lives?

It was no picnic when i had heart surgery. The treatment is severe. But i am very happy with the outcome.

Bob
01-10-2015, 03:59 PM
My wish is the treatment works. She survives and her mom will love her grandkids if the daughter marries.

Seraphima
01-10-2015, 09:56 PM
I suck big time when it comes to medical matters. The typical woman knows so much more about this than I know I don't even try to compete.

What will you think if the treatment fixes her? What if she has moments of discomfort or distress but all in all lives?

It was no picnic when i had heart surgery. The treatment is severe. But i am very happy with the outcome.

Chemo is absolute hell and not a sure guarantee. It really messes with your entire body. The treatment is in waves, so it's like going to a torture session over and over again except the torture lasts a very long time after going into your body. It's a marathon of pain and suffering.

Dr. Who
01-11-2015, 01:32 AM
I'm not convinced she wants to die, but she doesn't want them poisoning her body with chemicals. I agree.

I've known too many people with cancer that had their bodies bombarded with chemo and radiation, suffer terribly from it and still die. Some even receied the wrong chemo cocktail, which hurt more than helped.

Let her make her own choice for her body.
Young people have a much greater chance to beat Hogkins than adults. I don't know how I stand on this. I have a family member who went through the chemo as a preteen and beat it. She is now married with kids.

Private Pickle
01-11-2015, 01:42 AM
In this matter, this is over a 17 year old that has cancer. She wants to die.

https://www.yahoo.com/health/should-a-17-year-old-be-allowed-to-choose-death-107518648817.html

Should A 17-Year-Old Be Allowed To Choose Death?


Jennifer Gerson Uffalussy (http://www.twitter.com/jennyalyse)January 8, 2015






https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w500/6d8d3ff2fd12dad4761072df45aa571b34cb0fed.jpg
Cassandra C., pictured here with her mother Jackie Fortin, is being forced by the state of Connecticut to undergo chemo against her will. But the odds are pretty high that it would save her life. (Photo: CBSTV)
Does a 17-year-old have the right to not only make choices about her own medical treatment, but to do so in a way almost guaranteed to end in death?
This is the question that was just decided in Connecticut, where the state has taken custody of a 17-year old resident who is refusing chemotherapy treatment for herHodgkin lymphoma.







18 is the limit. Until then neither the parent nor the underage patient has the choice. Neither would be able to make an independent and educatated decision.

Peter1469
01-11-2015, 08:57 AM
In Connecticut the state can appoint a medical guardian for you even over the age of 18. I am not sure if they would push the issue, but that can.

Max Rockatansky
01-11-2015, 09:04 AM
I'm not convinced she wants to die, but she doesn't want them poisoning her body with chemicals. I agree.

I've known too many people with cancer that had their bodies bombarded with chemo and radiation, suffer terribly from it and still die. Some even receied the wrong chemo $#@!tail, which hurt more than helped.

Let her make her own choice for her body.

Since she is a minor, I disagree. When she turns 18, she can buy a gun and shoot herself if she likes.

In this case treatment has an 85% success rate.

"While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment."

Common
01-11-2015, 09:26 AM
I thought about this along time before I voted no. The kid isnt of age to vote yet and in the back of mind and in my heart, I keep saying there are stranger incidents of full recovery. Im just not sure on this to be honest.

Adelaide
01-11-2015, 11:27 AM
Some people don't have the fight for cancer. I truly think it contributes to statistics on survival. After seeing several close people to me go through multiple rounds of chemo, radiation, and transplants I have to believe that part of the reason you survive and can survive a relapse or a second relapse is because you have some kind of incredible fight in you. If you don't have it I think you're more likely to die.

Peter1469
01-11-2015, 12:22 PM
That is true. Will to live matters a lot in battling cancer and in other aspects of life.

Max Rockatansky
01-12-2015, 07:50 PM
Some people don't have the fight for cancer. I truly think it contributes to statistics on survival. After seeing several close people to me go through multiple rounds of chemo, radiation, and transplants I have to believe that part of the reason you survive and can survive a relapse or a second relapse is because you have some kind of incredible fight in you. If you don't have it I think you're more likely to die.

Agreed. One has to have the will to fight in order to have the will to survive.

Green Arrow
01-12-2015, 07:59 PM
Nobody should be forced to live because someone else might be uncomfortable with them killing themselves.

It's your life. If you want to end it, end it. This whole suicide is illegal thing is stupid.

Cthulhu
01-13-2015, 02:27 PM
No.

But yes with parental consent.

The Xl
01-13-2015, 03:10 PM
No.

But yes with parental consent.
A parent shouldn't have the right to tell a biogical adult to suffer that if she doesn't want to.

The Xl
01-13-2015, 03:10 PM
Nobody should be forced to live because someone else might be uncomfortable with them killing themselves.

It's your life. If you want to end it, end it. This whole suicide is illegal thing is stupid. This

Bob
01-13-2015, 03:12 PM
Nobody should be forced to live because someone else might be uncomfortable with them killing themselves.

It's your life. If you want to end it, end it. This whole suicide is illegal thing is stupid.

She is not mature enough to know what is best. That is why they are called children.

Bob
01-13-2015, 03:15 PM
Thus far, the voting shows 7 favor death and only 4 favor life. Sad eh?

Bear in mind, we are voting on her death or her life.

The Xl
01-13-2015, 03:15 PM
She is not mature enough to know what is best. That is why they are called children.

A child is a 5 year old. A 17 year old is not a child.

The Xl
01-13-2015, 03:16 PM
Thus far, the voting shows 7 favor death and only 4 favor life. Sad eh?

Bear in mind, we are voting on her death or her life.
You're acting as if the process of fighting.cancer is painless and the outcome is always good

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 03:19 PM
Her parents support her decision. If she had used the excuse of religious objections, would there be the same interest? She doesn't want poison in her body. It's her body.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 03:42 PM
Now, how would the opinions change if parents did NOT support the child wanting to do chemo and they did not want her to do so.

Do the parents have the right to tell a 17 year old that they canNOT undergo chemo because they are the parents?

Some 17 year olds are more responsible and mature than their parents. Most of us think that just because they are the "parents" they are mature and wise and can make informed decisions about their childs' health.

Here is the rub. The argument can quickly turn into something else in the health realm like...abortion. Should girls have the right to go to planned parenthood and get an abortion without parental knowledge? As a parent who houses, clothes and feeds my child. Hell, I gave birth to that child, I want to know. Is it my decision? Any and all health choices about my children I would want to make carefully with my child especially as a teenager. I would never send my daughter to get an abortion. I daresay I may even take some extreme steps to ensure she didn't go get one herself. That is how strongly I as a mother, parent and woman feel about abortion. In my world with unplanned pregnancy for a single girl there are two options- adoption and keeping the baby. In the world I live in however, abortion tends to be higher up on that list of options. It shouldn't be.

I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion about abortion, but I see the parallel. If anyone on here watched the video you would know that her mom supports her decision to NOT undergo chemo. WHY, why is she under the hospital's custody and not her own mothers? I would like to know. The mother says her daughter can decide. The daughter does not want to do chemo so legally you have your answer. Mother gives consent to the daughters choice.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 03:46 PM
A parent shouldn't have the right to tell a biogical adult to suffer that if she doesn't want to.

This is not the case, however. The mother fully supports the daughters decision. So that is not the issue here.

As a parent I want to help teach my kids how to make their own decisions. That does not mean they get to make every decision while they live under my care, but it does mean that I care for their input on decisions. This is different than someone wanting to go to a party over the weekend. This is a decision about this 17 year olds body and potentially life. This mother respects and supports her daughters decision. I say kudos to her and curse the hospital!

Cthulhu
01-13-2015, 04:37 PM
A parent shouldn't have the right to tell a biogical adult to suffer that if she doesn't want to.

With that train of thought, you are a child until 25 when the brain is fully developed.

By the same token. If I had a son who broke his femur, I would make him go to physical therapy. Even though it is painful - I want him to be able to walk when he is older.

Bob
01-13-2015, 05:07 PM
You're acting as if the process of fighting.cancer is painless and the outcome is always good

My open heart surgery was no treat. But well worth the recovery.

As to her facing a painless life, won't happen.

Bob
01-13-2015, 05:10 PM
A child is a 5 year old. A 17 year old is not a child.

I wonder what you will say in say ... 50 years.

My thinking evolved over decades. I suspect ... rather hope, yours will as well.

Her mother erred by saying she approved death. Naturally this empowered her daughter to seek death.

I saw how my cousin looked when at the end of her life. It was terrible. She was really out of it. Had she got early treatment, like this kid is getting, she could have still been living.

It you think chemo is bad, try just dying from cancer.

It is my belief, or hope, if you see one person dying from cancer, you will never want others to die like that.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 05:44 PM
My open heart surgery was no treat. But well worth the recovery.

As to her facing a painless life, won't happen.

And those who undergo chemo will not face a painless life either. There are long term effects of undergoing chemo. Again, I know people who have done so. I also have a relative (of a relative) who was SO sick during chemo because of how his tumors had spread. He had to do physical therapy so he could try and keep up the strength to even handle the chemo. He died. He didn't make it out of chemo treatment. His cancer has spread so much that chemo shouldn't have even been considered because of how it worsened his state of dying. He eventually gave up chemo and went home to die... and not painlessly. Chemo couldn't save him, but maybe if they had begun chemo years earlier it would've. It's a guessing game at this point because he is gone.

My SIL's mother is beginning round 2 of chemo. The first round was tough, but she made it through. Now, she has never really been healthy ever since even though she had been in "remission." The cancer is back and back to chemo it is. Eventually the cancer will take her, but at this point they are buying time.

Everyone should get to decide how and what they do for cancer treatment. We should not be force in to a method of treatment because such and such deems it the only option available. There are other options and some choose to do nothing because of their age.

We found out after my grandfather died that he had prostate cancer. He didn't tell anyone. He was healthy for his age even though he had suffered a few heart attacks. Even when he had those heart attacks he was ready to go back to work on the ranch. Grandpa was a fighter. I miss him. Prostate cancer would have taken him eventually because I doubt my grandfather would have never consented to most of the treatments available at the time. He died working on his ranch just as he would have had it.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 05:51 PM
I wonder what you will say in say ... 50 years.

My thinking evolved over decades. I suspect ... rather hope, yours will as well.

Her mother erred by saying she approved death. Naturally this empowered her daughter to seek death.

I saw how my cousin looked when at the end of her life. It was terrible. She was really out of it. Had she got early treatment, like this kid is getting, she could have still been living.

It you think chemo is bad, try just dying from cancer.

It is my belief, or hope, if you see one person dying from cancer, you will never want others to die like that.

Her mother did not quote "Approve of her death." She approved of her daughters decision to not undergo chemotherapy. She suppported her daughters decision and do any of us know whether or not they are seeking another means of treatment? Even if they are not, it is their choice, not the hospitals.

I have watched my mom's best friend deteriorate for the past 2 years from ASL. It has been nearly excruciating to see what happened to her body. She chose not to ever go on a feeding tube. She didn't want to prolong her suffering, she just wanted to die. NOT because she had a death wish, not because she was suicidal, but because she was going to die anyway. She has the right to make that decision for herself and her family should respect that. And they did. She weighed seventy pounds when she died.

I have seen a number of people pass from cancer and for some it is a long, hard battle even with chemo and for others it took them swiftly because of their age. We watch people suffer from all manner of sickness and disease that we have no say in and can do nothing about.

Maybe this girl will die. Maybe she was going to die anyways regardless of treatment, but you and I know where she is going Bob and if and when any of us pass all pain and suffering will be removed and replaced with peace and healing.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 05:58 PM
With that train of thought, you are a child until 25 when the brain is fully developed.

By the same token. If I had a son who broke his femur, I would make him go to physical therapy. Even though it is painful - I want him to be able to walk when he is older.

There is a difference between the brain being fully developed and being able to make an informed decision. All of us make decisions everyday and if you gathered 20 people in a room and ask they whether or not they choose to undergo chemo you just may find there are a few that would rather not. And what if some of those were teenagers?

I don't believe in the parent-child relationship of force or control (funny isn't it Cthulhu). I believe in an environment of learning and understanding on both sides of the parent and child. I was raised in a tyrannical household where I didn't have a say in anything. I didn't even get to choose where I went to college. NOw, I was 19 when I left home and had every right to pick my own school, but when you need a parents' help to get there you tend to bend to their will.

Bob
01-13-2015, 06:10 PM
Her mother did not quote "Approve of her death." She approved of her daughters decision to not undergo chemotherapy. She suppported her daughters decision and do any of us know whether or not they are seeking another means of treatment? Even if they are not, it is their choice, not the hospitals.

I have watched my mom's best friend deteriorate for the past 2 years from ASL. It has been nearly excruciating to see what happened to her body. She chose not to ever go on a feeding tube. She didn't want to prolong her suffering, she just wanted to die. NOT because she had a death wish, not because she was suicidal, but because she was going to die anyway. She has the right to make that decision for herself and her family should respect that. And they did. She weighed seventy pounds when she died.

I have seen a number of people pass from cancer and for some it is a long, hard battle even with chemo and for others it took them swiftly because of their age. We watch people suffer from all manner of sickness and disease that we have no say in and can do nothing about.

Maybe this girl will die. Maybe she was going to die anyways regardless of treatment, but you and I know where she is going @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) and if and when any of us pass all pain and suffering will be removed and replaced with peace and healing.

I owed my children as their fiduciary, the utmost in proper help. The hospital/doctors stated she will recover.

She will thank her mom and hospital when she has children of her own. Dark Mistress

Green Arrow
01-13-2015, 06:45 PM
She is not mature enough to know what is best. That is why they are called children.

Don't care. If she wants to die, let her. That is her choice and her's alone.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 07:04 PM
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/01/10/17-year-old-forced-against-her-mothers-will-to-undergo-chemotherapy/

A link which better explains my position on this matter. Choice. Agency. Whatever you want to call it. It's a great thing. I believe very much in the ability to make decisions. I also believe in consequences that result. And we get to deal with those as well.


Are we at the point where chemotherapy is, with 100 percent certainty as life saving as claimed? Unless the answer is a definitive yes, there seems to be absolutely zero justification for forcing chemotherapy treatment on anybody who wishes to pursue an alternative method of treatment.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 07:11 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/8/7513423/why-a-17-year-old-with-cancer-is-being-forced-to-undergo-chemo

Not only will they force this girl to undergo treatment but they will bill the non-consenting parents. Beautiful, isn't it.


Doctors diagnosed Cassandra in September with Hodgkin's lymphoma (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hodgkins-lymphoma/basics/definition/con-20030667), a cancer that attacks the lymphatic system (which is closely tied to the immune system). The body's ability to fight infection decreases as the disease advances. Cassandra was diagnosed with Stage 3 or 4 Hodgkin's lymphoma and was being treated at Connecticut Children's Medical Center.Hodgkin's lymphoma is frequently treated with chemotherapy, which does have possible long-term side effects including heart damage and lung damage and fertility issues, according to the Mayo Clinic. The cause (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hodgkins-lymphoma/basics/causes/con-20030667) of Hodgkin's lymphoma isn't known, and it's diagnosed using a lymph node biopsy. Her doctors say it's highly likely she'd die without chemo.
Cassandra had surgery to remove part of her lymph node as a surgical treatment, and doctors moved to start her on chemo. She and her mother left against doctor's orders. Cassandra's doctors, who are mandatory reporters of child abuse or neglect, reported this to DCF, which took the case to state Superior Court (a lower court to the Connecticut Supreme Court) in November. There, doctors testified Cassandra needed the treatment, which has an 80 to 95 percent success rate. The court granted DCF temporary custody of Cassandra. She underwent two chemo treatments and then ran away from home, refusing at one point to come back for further care.

Who wouldn't run away when being forced to do something you don't believe in? You have to admit she is dedicated to her cause. I lost the link but I heard some testimony by the mother that said they were wanting to do alternative treatment for their daughter. They were not going to leave her to die. They were seeking other options, but those also come with a price tag. The beauty of western medicine is that they bill you later. So, sign your life away at the hospital and they can bill you for all sorts of things you don't want and you can file for bankruptcy later because you couldn't never afford a quarter million in cancer treatments. NOw, saving a life does not come down to dollar signs, but this is ridiculous.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 07:12 PM
Who are we to decide an individuals fate?

We don't know all of the variables to this equation and to claim we do is ignorance.

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 07:33 PM
Who are we to decide an individuals fate?

We don't know all of the variables to this equation and to claim we do is ignorance.

another reason why those not directly involved should not be the ones making decisions

Max Rockatansky
01-13-2015, 09:33 PM
another reason why those not directly involved should not be the ones making decisions

So, if a 13 year old is having a tough time at school and wants to leap off a bridge, we shouldn't interfere?

I support the right to die just like I support the right to not wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt. However, I think we have a social obligation to protect minors. If you want to reduce the age of a minor to 12 or 6, then I think that's worth discussion too.

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 09:42 PM
So, if a 13 year old is having a tough time at school and wants to leap off a bridge, we shouldn't interfere?

I support the right to die just like I support the right to not wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt. However, I think we have a social obligation to protect minors. If you want to reduce the age of a minor to 12 or 6, then I think that's worth discussion too.

Have you read the OP? this is not a 13 year old wanting to jump off a bridge.

Bob
01-13-2015, 09:49 PM
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/01/10/17-year-old-forced-against-her-mothers-will-to-undergo-chemotherapy/

A link which better explains my position on this matter. Choice. Agency. Whatever you want to call it. It's a great thing. I believe very much in the ability to make decisions. I also believe in consequences that result. And we get to deal with those as well.

I am certain there is a lot .... make that a LOT that I do not know.

I can only say what I would do were it my daughter. I would tell her, get your behind with me to the doctor. I plan to work hard to save your life.

I realize learning one has cancer gives them the idea death is close. Chemo would be banned if it did not work.

They claim they caught hers early.

Maybe her mom won't mind if the daughter dies, but as my kids fiduciary, i sure would fight for their life.

Max Rockatansky
01-13-2015, 09:50 PM
Have you read the OP? this is not a 13 year old wanting to jump off a bridge.
She's a minor. Want to move the age of adulthood to 17? 16? Let's discuss it.

Those numbers are arbitrary anyway, but they are practical. Until we can measure a person's ability to be an "adulthood", then we have to pick a number. Convention has said 18 is that number. Now you are saying that isn't right, so let's discuss your solution.

Matty
01-13-2015, 09:51 PM
What if a 17 year old wanted to jump? It's her body innit?

Mister D
01-13-2015, 09:52 PM
another reason why those not directly involved should not be the ones making decisions



Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:08 PM
She's a minor. Want to move the age of adulthood to 17? 16? Let's discuss it.

Those numbers are arbitrary anyway, but they are practical. Until we can measure a person's ability to be an "adulthood", then we have to pick a number. Convention has said 18 is that number. Now you are saying that isn't right, so let's discuss your solution.

hmm...let's see....the girl is not wanting to commit suicide. She doesn't want to take chemo...which her mother supports. They want to use alternative medicine. The state has said the parents & the girl have no right to decide on what type of medical treatment she receives.

What needs to be discussed? You believe the state owns us all...body & soul. We are theirs to do with as they will...and we will be billed for those services later...right? gottcha!

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:12 PM
I am certain there is a lot .... make that a LOT that I do not know.

I can only say what I would do were it my daughter. I would tell her, get your behind with me to the doctor. I plan to work hard to save your life.

I realize learning one has cancer gives them the idea death is close. Chemo would be banned if it did not work.

They claim they caught hers early.

Maybe her mom won't mind if the daughter dies, but as my kids fiduciary, i sure would fight for their life.

They took away the mothers rights saying it was child abuse and neglect to not continue on with the cancer treatment dubbed necessary by western medicine.

Take a look at Germany. They are highly successful with their alternative therapies. My friend's dad's just got back from Germany about a year ago after his diagnosis-so far, so good. He is in remission. No chemo necessary. Yet. It's not the only option out there.

http://www.medic8.com/medical-tourism/cancer-treatment-abroad.html

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:14 PM
hmm...let's see....the girl is not wanting to commit suicide. She doesn't want to take chemo...which her mother supports. They want to use alternative medicine. The state has said the parents & the girl have no right to decide on what type of medical treatment she receives.

What needs to be discussed? You believe the state owns us all...body & soul. We are theirs to do with as they will...and we will be billed for those services later...right? gottcha!

Don't you worry parents. If you can't take care of your kids the way the state wants you to, they will take care of them for ya :wink:

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:15 PM
Don't you worry parents. If you can't take care of your kids the way the state wants you to, they will take care of them for ya :wink:

and send you a bill (with interest) for their services!

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:17 PM
and send you a bill (with interest) for their services!

You mean to say Obamacare is a myth? She gets to stay on her parents insurance up to 26.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:18 PM
So, if a 13 year old is having a tough time at school and wants to leap off a bridge, we shouldn't interfere?

I support the right to die just like I support the right to not wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt. However, I think we have a social obligation to protect minors. If you want to reduce the age of a minor to 12 or 6, then I think that's worth discussion too.

The post and article have been skewed to look like this 17 year old is wishing for her own death. There is no death-wishing involved here. There is a struggle for rights. Now, the debate in this case is whether or not this girl should get to choose to undergo chemotherapy. So, come Sept when she can legally make that decision and chooses to not do chemo again even if the first round of chemo didn't get all of the cancer will the state take away her rights and hospitalize her against her will? Legally at 18 she can make that decision and she will be responsible for it because she is "legally" an adult.

Will that change anyone's opinion? A teenager being 18 instead of 17. It's her choice then, but not now. It's not her choice and it's not even her mother's choice. That right has been removed and handed over to an hospital. And who are these people at the hospital making decisions for this girl? Doctors? Administrators?

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:19 PM
Bob, this has absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare. You are the one who posted the OP...where is the ACA mentioned in the article or the poll?

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:19 PM
You mean to say Obamacare is a myth? She gets to stay on her parents insurance up to 26.

If the mother has insurance. We don't know that.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:21 PM
They took away the mothers rights saying it was child abuse and neglect to not continue on with the cancer treatment dubbed necessary by western medicine.

Take a look at Germany. They are highly successful with their alternative therapies. My friend's dad's just got back from Germany about a year ago after his diagnosis-so far, so good. He is in remission. No chemo necessary. Yet. It's not the only option out there.

http://www.medic8.com/medical-tourism/cancer-treatment-abroad.html

Ted Myers, RIP was a friend of mine. Ted managed a real estate office and was getting seriously rich.

Ted saw a doctor who told him he had a form of bone cancer. In his hip. Ted pulled out all stops for that miracle alternative cure. He died. He flew all over the world seeking the top doctors. But that was in 1981 I believe. Ted's wife ended up with millions of dollars. He is the only realtor I ever knew in person that drove a brand new Rolls Royce with one for his wife as well. Ted lived on the top of a hill with a wonderful view where he could see Mt. Diablo very well.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:22 PM
You mean to say Obamacare is a myth? She gets to stay on her parents insurance up to 26.

Even with stellar insurance covering 80% of hundreds of thousands of dollars not to mention all of the additional billing accrued by the daughter staying indefinitely at the hospital for their "care." They didn't sign up for that. This is cautionary tale to me to be careful which doctors I take my children to in the future. If you start missing app after a diagnosis they will turn you in. In the end, the state can end up with more rights to your children than you do.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:23 PM
If the mother has insurance. We don't know that.

My understanding is she can't be turned down. I dunno, but I would not let my children croak because of some death wish. Do you realize you are the fiduciary to your children?

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:24 PM
If this were my child, I don't know what I would do. I do know I would fight tooth & nail to keep the state or the hospital or the doctors from making that decision for us. We either own our bodies, or the state owes us. Its real simple to me.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:24 PM
Even with stellar insurance covering 80% of hundreds of thousands of dollars not to mention all of the additional billing accrued by the daughter staying indefinitely at the hospital for their "care." They didn't sign up for that. This is cautionary tale to me to be careful which doctors I take my children to in the future. If you start missing app after a diagnosis they will turn you in. In the end, the state can end up with more rights to your children than you do.

I am sad just reading your words.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:25 PM
If this were my child, I don't know what I would do. I do know I would fight tooth & nail to keep the state or the hospital or the doctors from making that decision for us. We either own our bodies, or the state owes us. Its real simple to me.

You were the fiduciary for your kids. You might want to look that word up.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:25 PM
Ted Myers, RIP was a friend of mine. Ted managed a real estate office and was getting seriously rich.

Ted saw a doctor who told him he had a form of bone cancer. In his hip. Ted pulled out all stops for that miracle alternative cure. He died. He flew all over the world seeking the top doctors. But that was in 1981 I believe. Ted's wife ended up with millions of dollars. He is the only realtor I ever knew in person that drove a brand new Rolls Royce with one for his wife as well. Ted lived on the top of a hill with a wonderful view where he could see Mt. Diablo very well.

Many die from cancer who undergo chemo my friend.

My cousins Grandma went 100% alternative. She went on a raw organic foods diet and went to clinics in CA for treatment. She wouldn't do chemo because she didn't believe in it. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good for your body... She passed away not long ago. One could say she would have lived if she did chemo. And maybe she would have, but she held true to her belief in alternative medicine just as those who believe in western medicine do.

We will never know. And maybe it was their time to go. Even if undoing time could undo the end result. We don't get to make those choices for other people. We get to make those choices for us. They choose. We can learn for ourselves what we want to do based on others decisions. AT this point in my life you would have to work hard to convince me to go western on cancer. It would be a matter of prayer and what I felt was best for me, my body and my family.

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:26 PM
You were the fiduciary for your kids. You might want to look that word up.

I know what it means without looking it up...even if I do live in Alabama.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:27 PM
Bob, this has absolutely nothing to do with Obamacare. You are the one who posted the OP...where is the ACA mentioned in the article or the poll?

There probably are other in depth articles. What can i tell you. Per ACA she can get insurance. Even poor, it can be paid for.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:29 PM
I am sad just reading your words.

Choose thy doctors wisely. They are not all created equal.

I have had physicians who try to tell me what to do and that losing a baby is just natural and it happens. No heart and no feeling. They looked at that life I so desperately wanted as something I could merely replace given time. I have learned to choose my doctors wisely for that reason. I want a doctor who views life including my own as sacred and with utmost respect or I cannot respect them.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:31 PM
Many die from cancer who undergo chemo my friend.

My cousins Grandma went 100% alternative. She went on a raw organic foods diet and went to clinics in CA for treatment. She wouldn't do chemo because she didn't believe in it. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good for your body... She passed away not long ago. One could say she would have lived if she did chemo. And maybe she would have, but she held true to her belief in alternative medicine just as those who believe in western medicine do.

We will never know. And maybe it was their time to go. Even if undoing time could undo the end result. We don't get to make those choices for other people. We get to make those choices for us. They choose. We can learn for ourselves what we want to do based on others decisions. AT this point in my life you would have to work hard to convince me to go western on cancer. It would be a matter of prayer and what I felt was best for me, my body and my family.

Since this is a child, and as parents we are the childs fiduciary, if it is WE the parents wanting them to die, I suppose you have a good point. But I never wanted my kids to die. Her parents should be wiser than the child was.

Max Rockatansky
01-13-2015, 10:31 PM
hmm...let's see....the girl is not wanting to commit suicide.
Suuuure. Pass on the treatment that has an 85% success rate and roll the dice on home grown treatments from a witch or whatever "alternative treatment" they like.

No matter. Again, should "the state" protect minors or not? A good argument can be made either way. There's a lot to be said about letting Darwinism replace Nanny Statism.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/indiana-baby-gun-288266681.html
Police searching the cellphone of an Indiana man arrested for trying to sell a handgun to an undercover officer last week said they found video of a toddler putting a gun in his mouth.

In the video, 19-year-old Michael Barnes can be heard telling the 12-month-old boy to say "pow" on multiple occasions while the child plays with the gun, according to a police statement (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/288180591.html). Authorities didn't say if the gun was loaded.

"At no point does Barnes try to stop the child from playing with the gun," police said in a statement.

https://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/baby-gun.jpg?w=400&h=225&crop=1

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:33 PM
Choose thy doctors wisely. They are not all created equal.

I have had physicians who try to tell me what to do and that losing a baby is just natural and it happens. No heart and no feeling. They looked at that life I so desperately wanted as something I could merely replace given time. I have learned to choose my doctors wisely for that reason. I want a doctor who views life including my own as sacred and with utmost respect or I cannot respect them.

I have a personal doctor and he is okay. I once told him I felt a chill down my windpipe out walking on a warm day. He almost that moment called a Cardiologist and had me get to his office. That doctor found my heart problem and saved me. So far so good.

Around here, if your doctor talks English, it is a good day. So far so good on that too.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:34 PM
I am sad just reading your words.

Understanding that the state has every right to take away my children is an important thing to acknowledge as a parent. Even if I am doing everything right but someone else views it as wrong or questionable or even I daresay abusive or neglectful. Those kids could be gone. They are my life and my purpose for doing practically everything I do. My life and world revolves around those four angels. You are a parent and I know you understand, but it is slightly different from the mother's point of view. I carried that life and fed and nurtured it. I will continue to do all I can for my children until I perish because they are part of me.

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:35 PM
you either believe Big Brother knows best or you don't.

The picture of the child and the gun doesn't distract from the actual subject under discussion...unless you are implying the girl's parents are as guilty of neglect as those in the pic.

Dark Mistress
01-13-2015, 10:37 PM
Since this is a child, and as parents we are the childs fiduciary, if it is WE the parents wanting them to die, I suppose you have a good point. But I never wanted my kids to die. Her parents should be wiser than the child was.

And that is where this thread is tainted to make readers believe that Mother dearest wants her daughter to die.

Just because a parent doesn't seek the treatment you would she wishes death upon her daughter?

PolWatch
01-13-2015, 10:43 PM
The title of the thread is slanted to give readers the perception of suicide and parental neglect. That is not the true picture of the issue. An honest title would be something like: Should state be allowed to force unwanted treatment on family? That would be a fairer presentation of the situation.

There are people whose religion does not allow certain medical treatment. I don't understand them and I may not agree with their choice. I do agree with their right to decide their faith and their own medical decisions. We are either a free people, or we are not.

Bob
01-13-2015, 10:50 PM
Understanding that the state has every right to take away my children is an important thing to acknowledge as a parent. Even if I am doing everything right but someone else views it as wrong or questionable or even I daresay abusive or neglectful. Those kids could be gone. They are my life and my purpose for doing practically everything I do. My life and world revolves around those four angels. You are a parent and I know you understand, but it is slightly different from the mother's point of view. I carried that life and fed and nurtured it. I will continue to do all I can for my children until I perish because they are part of me.

I am not sad now.

Redrose
01-13-2015, 10:54 PM
It isn't so much the refusing treatment, as a nurse I have seen that happen often, as it is her age. I still see her as being a child. I'm not sure she could make the decision to refuse treatment competently.


A few months down the road she would be 18 and able to decide. That's close enough for me. If she was 6, 8 10, 12 I'd say no, she's too young to make that decision.

Max Rockatansky
01-13-2015, 10:56 PM
you either believe Big Brother knows best or you don't.

The picture of the child and the gun doesn't distract from the actual subject under discussion...unless you are implying the girl's parents are as guilty of neglect as those in the pic.Whew! Thank you for admitting government is Big Brother! Now you know what all those Tea Party members are screaming about.

I'm not saying the kid with the gun is neglect. I'm content to keep "Big Brother" out of all our lives and let parents do as they please. If the kid wants to forgo treatment for a treatable disease because she thinks medicine is "poison", then it's probably best she not take the treatment.

Those parents who don't want their kids to have shots? Fine. OTOH, I support those parents who do try to protect their kid's health from not being forced to go to school with diseased and potentially diseased kids just as I support doctors who choose not to treat patients who do not follow established medical advice.

Bob
01-14-2015, 06:10 PM
A few months down the road she would be 18 and able to decide. That's close enough for me. If she was 6, 8 10, 12 I'd say no, she's too young to make that decision.

What if she was your daughter and the doctor said, with chemo she will live, without it, you will pay for a funeral.

What then? Redrose

Many make the case due to her age. I make mine on saving her life.

Bob
01-14-2015, 06:18 PM
The title of the thread is slanted to give readers the perception of suicide and parental neglect. That is not the true picture of the issue. An honest title would be something like: Should state be allowed to force unwanted treatment on family? That would be a fairer presentation of the situation.

There are people whose religion does not allow certain medical treatment. I don't understand them and I may not agree with their choice. I do agree with their right to decide their faith and their own medical decisions. We are either a free people, or we are not.

I plead guilty to saying suicide. But isn't that what it amounts to?

The article pleads the doctors do not want her to give up. She has a 85 percent chance they told her.

Her parents might have drilled her growing up that they would not have chemo. Maybe she decided only based on her parents rejection of sound medical advice. I see parent hanky panky here.

Redrose
01-14-2015, 06:24 PM
What if she was your daughter and the doctor said, with chemo she will live, without it, you will pay for a funeral.

What then? @Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123)

Many make the case due to her age. I make mine on saving her life.


Good question @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013). I hope to God my family never has to face that horrible decision. I would not want to lose my child. If I was completely convinced chemo would help her/him I would try to talk to my child and help her/him understand the gravity of the situation. A child that close to majority is difficult to control. All of us who have raised kids knows how that works. I would work to help her/him make the right decision. In good conscience I don't think I would force chemo on anyone that age. I can think of three people right now, who were given the wrong chemo cocktail and it allowed the cancer to spread and they died. One was the 15 year old daughter of a cop my husband worked with. She had ovarian cancer and the screwup from a renowned cancer in Florida, allowed the cancer to metastasize. She died at 16. Her mother blamed herself for allowing them to treat her cancer. If chemo had a 100% success rate I wouldn't hesitate in the least, but sadly I have a very poor opinion of our cancer care in general. Also, chemo can make some folks very sick, weak, vomiting constantly. A friend with breast cancer was one such person. Her doctor gave her a script for medicine to stop the sickness. Her insurance would not pay for it. It cost $600 per pill. She couldn't pay for it and had to suffer through the sick weeks. She died 2 years after diagnosis.

Bob
01-14-2015, 06:30 PM
And that is where this thread is tainted to make readers believe that Mother dearest wants her daughter to die.

Just because a parent doesn't seek the treatment you would she wishes death upon her daughter?

I see a question begging for a reply. I see doctors wishing for the best and telling them all she has an outstanding chance to remain alive. A lot of parents are ignorant. I know this since I happen to be one of them. I tend to stay out of medical discussions because I am more aware of heart problems and diabetes since I have been treated for both.

Who knows more about medicine, her parents of the doctors involved??

I credit the doctors.

Bob
01-14-2015, 06:45 PM
The poll notes one more opts to save her life.

8- for death 5 for life.
While many kinds of cancers have a low success rate in terms of chemotherapy treatment, Hodgkin lymphoma is successfully treated with chemo 85 percent of the time when caught and treated early on, as would be the case in Cassandra’s treatment.
“Hodgkin lymphoma is a very treatable cancer,” says Rohan Ramakrishna, MD, a neurosurgeon and surgical neurooncologist at Weill Cornell Medical College and New York Presbyterian Hospital. He notes that “to not want to pursue any therapy at all” isn’t necessarily a “rational” choice given the success rates of treatment with this type of cancer. “It would be one thing if someone has recurrent cancer, isn’t responding to chemotherapy,” says Ramakrishna, but as this is not the case for Cassandra, “to not want to pursue any therapy” is an unusual choice within the norms of “American-style medicine.”

Bob
01-14-2015, 07:00 PM
Good question @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013). I hope to God my family never has to face that horrible decision. I would not want to lose my child. If I was completely convinced chemo would help her/him I would try to talk to my child and help her/him understand the gravity of the situation. A child that close to majority is difficult to control. All of us who have raised kids knows how that works. I would work to help her/him make the right decision. In good conscience I don't think I would force chemo on anyone that age. I can think of three people right now, who were given the wrong chemo cocktail and it allowed the cancer to spread and they died. One was the 15 year old daughter of a cop my husband worked with. She had ovarian cancer and the screwup from a renowned cancer in Florida, allowed the cancer to metastasize. She died at 16. Her mother blamed herself for allowing them to treat her cancer. If chemo had a 100% success rate I wouldn't hesitate in the least, but sadly I have a very poor opinion of our cancer care in general. Also, chemo can make some folks very sick, weak, vomiting constantly. A friend with breast cancer was one such person. Her doctor gave her a script for medicine to stop the sickness. Her insurance would not pay for it. It cost $600 per pill. She couldn't pay for it and had to suffer through the sick weeks. She died 2 years after diagnosis.

I am sorry but this type of storytelling does not lead to a resolution.

I have a story I have told before.

The major difference is this story is of a poster i once knew pretty well. We learned a lot via e mail.

Silver confided to me she had stage 4 ovarian cancer. Silver was retired and around 65 plus in age. She had lived a hard working life then a sumptuous retired life. She lived big. She drove a Porche Boxter. She lived politics. She campaigned for Romney. Silver was generous to those she knew who were suffering. She for instance donated 6 months wages per person that was a worker at her former husband's factory in New Orleans area post Katrina. She felt her recently dead husband would have done it that way. I don't recall how many workers she paid that worked at her husband's factory but I expect it cost her a lot of money to do that.

She was rational. She said no to treatment. She felt like she wanted no treatment for her own reasons. i got very sad when she replied to me and days later quit. I did not monkey in her business. I tried to just be there. She knew I would not pass judgment on her. She also was a fairly new wife so she had plenty of advice.

Had she been just 17 as this child was, i would have tried and tried to get her to treatment.

Redrose
01-14-2015, 07:18 PM
I am sorry but this type of storytelling does not lead to a resolution.

I have a story I have told before.

The major difference is this story is of a poster i once knew pretty well. We learned a lot via e mail.

Silver confided to me she had stage 4 ovarian cancer. Silver was retired and around 65 plus in age. She had lived a hard working life then a sumptuous retired life. She lived big. She drove a Porche Boxter. She lived politics. She campaigned for Romney. Silver was generous to those she knew who were suffering. She for instance donated 6 months wages per person that was a worker at her former husband's factory in New Orleans area post Katrina. She felt her recently dead husband would have done it that way. I don't recall how many workers she paid that worked at her husband's factory but I expect it cost her a lot of money to do that.

She was rational. She said no to treatment. She felt like she wanted no treatment for her own reasons. i got very sad when she replied to me and days later quit. I did not monkey in her business. I tried to just be there. She knew I would not pass judgment on her. She also was a fairly new wife so she had plenty of advice.

Had she been just 17 as this child was, i would have tried and tried to get her to treatment.

Bob I suppose what this shows is the decision to have treatment or not is a very personal one.
I've had this discussion with my husband. If I am diagnosed, early on, with a cancer that has a very excellent cure rate, I would go for the treatment. If I get diagnosed with stage 3 or 4 pancreatic cancer, I will do nothing except maybe some pain meds and live the best way possible until I go.

Back to the 17 year old. I would try to make her see chemo could help her, but at that age, I don't think we can force her. Tough call. Probably the courts will force her. I hope it all works out for her.

Bob
01-14-2015, 07:52 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) I suppose what this shows is the decision to have treatment or not is a very personal one.
I've had this discussion with my husband. If I am diagnosed, early on, with a cancer that has a very excellent cure rate, I would go for the treatment. If I get diagnosed with stage 3 or 4 pancreatic cancer, I will do nothing except maybe some pain meds and live the best way possible until I go.

Back to the 17 year old. I would try to make her see chemo could help her, but at that age, I don't think we can force her. Tough call. Probably the courts will force her. I hope it all works out for her.

Good call. I agree with you. This sure stirred the juices and gets us all thinking over what we would want to do.

Bob
01-16-2015, 10:40 AM
This topic has had a couple days to cool down and I want to make a confession.

I believe fully in human freedom. This to me is the cornerstone of sound philosophy.

What worries me about the 17 year old is she is on record as saying, going back a number of years, how she wants medical treatment. At the age she made up her mind, what influenced her? Was it free will or did some adult persuade her by how they talked of cancer cures.

Kids listen to adults.

I feel adults rights are sacred. I don't see a child as an adult. Too many parents treat kids like smaller adults.

This leaves the children vulnerable. Kids may never learn good judgment. We know a lot of adults lack good judgment. We see them consuming drugs, doing what Sarah Silverman does, having a guy to have sex with but tells him to find a life partner. When this dude dumps her, she no doubt will move to some other sex supplier. What can you call those supplying sex for dates but similar to sex workers. Bad judgment lasts a lifetime for some people. It ought to be a duty of parents to coach their kids to have good judgment. It is a full time job. Not merely when they need scolding.

Let me give you an example. I coached both of my daughters from early school age forward that college was needed. They grew up believing in college. It was a value they grew up with.

Bob
01-16-2015, 05:40 PM
To further clarify, the 17 year old said by age 12 I believe, she would refuse chemo. What 12 year old is thinking of cancer or treatments? I wish I knew 100 percent of her story. That is the basis of my vote to give her life.

Let's all hope she is cured and later will laugh how she did not want Chemo. Surely if it was all that bad, as some say it is, we all would reject it as a treatment. I don't know personally, just what I am told by posters.

CreepyOldDude
01-19-2015, 02:37 PM
No. She turns 18, she can make any choice she wants. Until then, she lives by the same rules all the rest of us live by.

PolWatch
01-19-2015, 02:50 PM
No. She turns 18, she can make any choice she wants. Until then, she lives by the same rules all the rest of us live by.

she has the support of her family to seek alternative medical care. She is not wanting to commit suicide, only refuse chemo treatment.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 03:57 PM
I am sorry but this type of storytelling does not lead to a resolution.

I have a story I have told before.

The major difference is this story is of a poster i once knew pretty well. We learned a lot via e mail.

Silver confided to me she had stage 4 ovarian cancer. Silver was retired and around 65 plus in age. She had lived a hard working life then a sumptuous retired life. She lived big. She drove a Porche Boxter. She lived politics. She campaigned for Romney. Silver was generous to those she knew who were suffering. She for instance donated 6 months wages per person that was a worker at her former husband's factory in New Orleans area post Katrina. She felt her recently dead husband would have done it that way. I don't recall how many workers she paid that worked at her husband's factory but I expect it cost her a lot of money to do that.

She was rational. She said no to treatment. She felt like she wanted no treatment for her own reasons. i got very sad when she replied to me and days later quit. I did not monkey in her business. I tried to just be there. She knew I would not pass judgment on her. She also was a fairly new wife so she had plenty of advice.

Had she been just 17 as this child was, i would have tried and tried to get her to treatment.
We have no stewardship over someone else's seventeen year old. However I have more stewardship over my nieces and nephews in comparison to those who are unrelated to them. However their parents have stewardship over them ultimately and I do not. If my niece had cancer how and what they choose to do in regards to treatment is not my business. The matter of how they come to choose or decide is not up to aunty nor should i get involved unless asked. I would pray and fast for them in their decision as I am sure they would do for us if it was our child. It is their choice and not mine. I will respect those decisions of my family and friends. Even if I disagree.

Bob
01-19-2015, 04:29 PM
We have no stewardship over someone else's seventeen year old. However I have more stewardship over my nieces and nephews in comparison to those who are unrelated to them. However their parents have stewardship over them ultimately and I do not. If my niece had cancer how and what they choose to do in regards to treatment is not my business. The matter of how they come to choose or decide is not up to aunty nor should i get involved unless asked. I would pray and fast for them in their decision as I am sure they would do for us if it was our child. It is their choice and not mine. I will respect those decisions of my family and friends. Even if I disagree.

Not one time have I put myself in charge of the 17 year old, nor can I do that.

My son and I were talking after Church yesterday about this very thing.

He told me things about Chemo I did not know. If there is a poster more ignorant than myself on medical matters, point that person out to me. I think I am in charge of the least knowledgeable group.

He claims that Chemo can't cure cancer. And he says it takes more than that. (trying to recall everything here he said) He spoke of a cocktail and radiation treatment.

He also says the AMA controls this. That they won't allow a treatment to be used if the success rate is less than 33 percent chance.

He says generally where one gets ill, there is something in that area that nature provides that can recharge your immune system and went on and on about the native tribes cures.

I just don't know.

But the 17 year old is being treated. I was told it makes you pretty sick. Redrose I believe also said that.

I don't know the laws of her state, but the state is treating her. Allegedly the treatment is 85 percent good and that is far better than the 33 percent cure rate.

I only speak up for her life. While if she dies it won't impact on me, it will not feel good to me. A child ought to be saved by adults. If her mom won't save her, at least the state she lives in will save her.

Bob
01-19-2015, 04:31 PM
she has the support of her family to seek alternative medical care. She is not wanting to commit suicide, only refuse chemo treatment.

Will you stand by a claim she will live with no chemo?

It is simple, your way she does what? Lives or dies?

PolWatch
01-19-2015, 04:40 PM
Its not 'my' way. The choice belongs to her & her family. It is not the right of the state to force the family into something they don't agree with...imo

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 04:52 PM
Will you stand by a claim she will live with no chemo?

It is simple, your way she does what? Lives or dies?
Its not about your way or my way. Its about choice.

No hospital or treatment center western or alternative can guarantee survival. No doctor can guarantee survival especially when it comes to cancer. They can give odds and statistics. Its not a guarantee. One can make a decision and live with the consequences. Child abuse for not choosing chemo? That's not my definition or child abuse especially considering the age and desire of the teenager.

I will not claim to be an expert on cancer and treatments, but it is something I have explored and studied independently and through a college course I took awhile back. I don't know it all. I do know that we do not seek for cures in western medicine. We seek to treat symptoms.

Through the use of alternative Medicine there have been individuals cured from cancer. Cured. Now, this does not mean every individual can be cured but that there are those who have. Why are we not implementing more of these therapies? Because there is less money to be made off of curing illness than just treating it. Also most cannot afford alternative treatments out of pocket so fewer are able to pursue them. Its also unpopular.

Bob
01-19-2015, 04:59 PM
Its not about your way or my way. Its about choice.

No hospital or treatment center western or alternative can guarantee survival. No doctor can guarantee survival especially when it comes to cancer. They can give odds and statistics. Its not a guarantee. One can make a decision and live with the consequences. Child abuse for not choosing chemo? That's not my definition or child abuse especially considering the age and desire of the teenager.

I will not claim to be an expert on cancer and treatments, but it is something I have explored and studied independently and through a college course I took awhile back. I don't know it all. I do know that we do not seek for cures in western medicine. We seek to treat symptoms.

Through the use of alternative Medicine there have been individuals cured from cancer. Cured. Now, this does not mean every individual can be cured but that there are those who have. Why are we not implementing more of these therapies? Because there is less money to be made off of curing illness than just treating it. Also most cannot afford alternative treatments out of pocket so fewer are able to pursue them. Its also unpopular.

Oh, so your pitch is not to stop treatment, just pick your way of treating her? Your way is some alternative of no name??

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:02 PM
Its not 'my' way. The choice belongs to her & her family. It is not the right of the state to force the family into something they don't agree with...imo

We all know of stories where the family shunned all medical help. And some poor child simply dies. We know those stories because when the law finds out, they put the guilty family on trial.

This kid is dying. She has an 85 percent chance with the state and no chance with her parents.

I feel sorry for her.

Too bad i can't get more posters to feel sorry for the child.

PolWatch
01-19-2015, 05:07 PM
I do feel sorry for the child. I feel sorry that the state owns her body. I feel sorry she and her family have no rights. I feel very sorry for them.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 05:09 PM
How do you possibly derive that from what I said? See the post above that for my opinion on what should be done. Not my choice. I have seen plenty of individuals with kids undergo treatments for cancer. Chemo and alternative. I don't know of one still living. They didn't make it. It is not my choice. It is not a doctors choice to force treatment on someone child and parent included not wanting to undergo chemotherapy.

I gave my plug for alternative as you have given yours for western. We disagree. I respect your belief in chemotherapy however it would not be my first choice. And not my first choice for my kids. If I had to make that decision for one of my young children I would not make it lightly. I would study and I would pray. Hard. Its not always about me thinking chemo is inferior to alternative treatment but what is beat for my child. It may be chemo and it may be something else. Nobody, nobody has the right to tell me what is best for my child. Just because a doctor or hospitals dubs it best means it's what's best.

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:22 PM
I do feel sorry for the child. I feel sorry that the state owns her body. I feel sorry she and her family have no rights. I feel very sorry for them.

Well, welcome to Amerika. This is what i have said hundreds of times. The way the Democrats work it, we are owned by the state.

I was a GI. GI stands for Government issue.

My belief with this child is she formed her belief 5 years ago. Not when she is 17, but when she was 12. Somebody scared her half to death about cancer and told her Chemo is terrible.

Dying from Cancer is way more terrible. I feel sorry for the child. Somebody twisted her thinking as a lot younger child.

This site alleges that it helps prevent nausea and vomiting.

"
EMEND is used in adults to prevent nausea and vomiting caused by certain anticancer medicines. EMEND is always used with other medicines.
EMEND is not used to treat nausea and vomiting that you already have.
EMEND should not be used continuously for a long time (chronic use)."
http://www.emend.com/aprepitant/emend/consumer/index.xhtml?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=N02DV&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=chemo%2520and%2520side%2520effects&utm_campaign=2012+Emend+Consumer&utm_content=sgCsKnUea%7cdc_pcrid_55900348568&gclid=CjwKEAiA8_KlBRD9z_jl_fKBhQkSJABDKqiXqRepYED6 GINC1nzFk2g6PuLgWt3ilUuvt0xAwktWZhoCr-bw_wcB

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:23 PM
How do you possibly derive that from what I said? See the post above that for my opinion on what should be done. Not my choice. I have seen plenty of individuals with sicks undergo treatments for cancer. Chemo and alternative. I don't know of one still living. They didn't make it. It is not my choice. It is not a doctors choice to force treatment on someone child and parent included not wanting to undergo chemotherapy.

I gave my plug for alternative as you have given yours for western. We disagree. I respect your belief in chemotherapy however it would not be my first choice. And not my first choice for my kids. If I had to make that decision for one of my young children I would not make it lightly. I would study and I would pray. Hard. Its not always about me thinking chemo is inferior to alternative treatment but what is beat for my child. It may be chemo and it may be something else. Nobody, nobody has the right to tell me what is best for my child. Just because a doctor or hospitals dubs it best means it's what's best.

What about using EMEND to stop vomiting and side effects of Chemo?

PolWatch
01-19-2015, 05:28 PM
Last try. You are a member of the LDS Church. The majority of Christians are not LDS. The majority of Christians have decided that the LDS Church is wrong and everyone has to go to another Christian church. Your children will be forced to go to another Church and you have no right to say anything about it...because other people know best. Same situation.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 05:29 PM
Oh, so your pitch is not to stop treatment, just pick your way of treating her? Your way is some alternative of no name??
I argue that we seem to treat this situation as if they don't pick chemotherapy they are seeking to not treat and kill a 17 year old.

You treat it that way. As if its our responsibility to choose for her. Or to change her mind or do this or do that. That is not my responsibility.

I feel bad for anyone with cancer but more particularly innocent people. I feel horrible as I watch people suffer through chemo and even more so years later when cancer has returned and they have to endure it again. I think all of us have seen people suffer from cancer. People we love. It is sad. I feel sad for a persons choice being removed when they have committed no crime.





We all know of stories where the family shunned all medical help. And some poor child simply dies. We know those stories because when the law finds out, they put the guilty family on trial.

This kid is dying. She has an 85 percent chance with the state and no chance with her parents.

I feel sorry for her.

Too bad i can't get more posters to feel sorry for the child.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 05:31 PM
What about using EMEND to stop vomiting and side effects of Chemo?
What about it?

Just not sure what you are asking or looking for?

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 05:34 PM
Well, welcome to Amerika. This is what i have said hundreds of times. The way the Democrats work it, we are owned by the state.

I was a GI. GI stands for Government issue.

My belief with this child is she formed her belief 5 years ago. Not when she is 17, but when she was 12. Somebody scared her half to death about cancer and told her Chemo is terrible.

Dying from Cancer is way more terrible. I feel sorry for the child. Somebody twisted her thinking as a lot younger child.

This site alleges that it helps prevent nausea and vomiting.

"
EMEND is used in adults to prevent nausea and vomiting caused by certain anticancer medicines. EMEND is always used with other medicines.
EMEND is not used to treat nausea and vomiting that you already have.
EMEND should not be used continuously for a long time (chronic use)."
http://www.emend.com/aprepitant/emend/consumer/index.xhtml?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=N02DV&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=chemo%2520and%2520side%2520effects&utm_campaign=2012+Emend+Consumer&utm_content=sgCsKnUea%7cdc_pcrid_55900348568&gclid=CjwKEAiA8_KlBRD9z_jl_fKBhQkSJABDKqiXqRepYED6 GINC1nzFk2g6PuLgWt3ilUuvt0xAwktWZhoCr-bw_wcB
I formed my true belief in God at age 12. My testimony of him has changed little since then. I have learned more as I have grown, matured and had life experiences. I still have that same belief its just more fortified.

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:37 PM
I formed my true belief in God at age 12. My testimony of him has changed little since then. I have learned more as I have grown, matured and had life experiences. I still have that same belief its just more fortified.

Did your area have stake conference this past weekend? Ours was outstanding.

What about giving the girl EMEND to stave off side effects of Chemo?

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:40 PM
What about it?

Just not sure what you are asking or looking for?

I found out how to prevent her from discomfort due to Chemo.

http://www.emend.com/aprepitant/emend/consumer/index.xhtml?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=N02DV&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=chemo%2520and%2520side%2520effects&utm_campaign=2012+Emend+Consumer&utm_content=sgCsKnUea%7cdc_pcrid_55900348568&gclid=CjwKEAiA8_KlBRD9z_jl_fKBhQkSJABDKqiXqRepYED6 GINC1nzFk2g6PuLgWt3ilUuvt0xAwktWZhoCr-bw_wcB

Bob
01-19-2015, 05:43 PM
I argue that we seem to treat this situation as if they don't pick chemotherapy they are seeking to not treat and kill a 17 year old.

You treat it that way. As if its our responsibility to choose for her. Or to change her mind or do this or do that. That is not my responsibility.

I feel bad for anyone with cancer but more particularly innocent people. I feel horrible as I watch people suffer through chemo and even more so years later when cancer has returned and they have to endure it again. I think all of us have seen people suffer from cancer. People we love. It is sad. I feel sad for a persons choice being removed when they have committed no crime.

Were they treating her with other proven ways, we would know that. The state finds in favor of the child by treating her.

A lot of parents refuse treatment for their children and the kids die. Then the state puts them on trial. Why make her mom endure a trial?

Alyosha
01-19-2015, 05:53 PM
A seventeen year old is not a child Bob. Some of Joseph Smith's wives were younger than 17, should they have not been allowed to marry him because they were just kids? If they were just kids was he a pedo for marrying the 14 year old wife, Nancy?

I think 17 is a young adult and can make decisions, personally.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 08:07 PM
Did your area have stake conference this past weekend? Ours was outstanding.

What about giving the girl EMEND to stave off side effects of Chemo?

Not my choice. The treatment isn't hers either. Or her mom's, but they probably have her on it. What about the other side effects of chemo? I remember my brother's MIL begging for H.F. to take her. That is not her personality. She wanted to live, but some of those side effects messed with her. I guess what might comfort individuals is that it won't be that way forever and there is an end in sight to the chemo and that you want to live. I haven't been there. I haven't been that close to death so I don't know. And no prescription is guaranteed to work for everybody. My bro is experiencing little to no pain relief from all the pain meds he has been on the last week since he had his hip replaced. Pain meds work great for me, but do next to nothing for my mom and bro. And this is where I side strongly with natural medicine. Finding what works for the individual and treating each person and body as unique. What works for some may not work for others, but to strive to understand your body and what will work for you. Not as another statistic, but as a person.

No, Stk Conf. Ours comes in Nov and again in May. We have some regional broadcast end of Feb early March.

Bob
01-19-2015, 08:13 PM
Not my choice. The treatment isn't hers either. Or her mom's, but they probably have her on it. What about the other side effects of chemo? I remember my brother's MIL begging for H.F. to take her. That is not her personality. She wanted to live, but some of those side effects messed with her. I guess what might comfort individuals is that it won't be that way forever and there is an end in sight to the chemo and that you want to live. I haven't been there. I haven't been that close to death so I don't know. And no prescription is guaranteed to work for everybody. My bro is experiencing little to no pain relief from all the pain meds he has been on the last week since he had his hip replaced. Pain meds work great for me, but do next to nothing for my mom and bro. And this is where I side strongly with natural medicine. Finding what works for the individual and treating each person and body as unique. What works for some may not work for others, but to strive to understand your body and what will work for you. Not as another statistic, but as a person.

No, Stk Conf. Ours comes in Nov and again in May. We have some regional broadcast end of Feb early March.

It is not my choice either nor have I claimed it is my choice.

My hope is for the girl to recover so I voted for her life.

With no treatment, she faces an early death.

I recall a pretty blonde girl in high school that sat to my front. suddenly she quit coming to class. Some period of time the teacher told us all she was very ill fighting for her life. She must have been 15. Later in the year the teacher announced she died.

It was so sad. To not try to support her fight for life is too much for me to bear. I feel some family members won't help them fight for life.

As to the stk, I learned something new from you. I thought they happened all over the world on the same days.

Bob
01-19-2015, 08:15 PM
A seventeen year old is not a child @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013). Some of Joseph Smith's wives were younger than 17, should they have not been allowed to marry him because they were just kids? If they were just kids was he a pedo for marrying the 14 year old wife, Nancy?

I think 17 is a young adult and can make decisions, personally.

Should she make life decisions of that nature at age 12? She claims that is the age she made this decision.

I don't believe this has a thing to do with marriage nor with Joseph Smith.

You must also remember, since you bring up Smith that he was also a very young male.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 08:16 PM
Did your area have stake conference this past weekend? Ours was outstanding.

What about giving the girl EMEND to stave off side effects of Chemo?

I have been offered a number of prescrip meds for various reasons. And when I have felt uncomfortable about them I kindly tell my doctor that I will think about it or that I am not interested. If I was suffering a great deal from the effects of chemo I would probably want something to ease my pain. Doesn't mean that prescrip is the only option available. I believe in essential oils although I largely cannot afford them, but from my preffered company offered something or a number of things that might help with those side effects, I just might try that first and then consider the prescription. That's largely the motto I like by. Home remedies and natural medicines first then the other.

Example whenever I feel anything, anything coming on, I turn to raw, unfiltered, organic apple cider vinegar. I take shots of it periodically throughout the day and drink as much water as I can stand. That usually takes care of it. I don't have serious issues, but I do NOT want to have to go to instacare for antibiotics for a sinus infection unless I have to. It is a last resort before I have tried all I can at home. I have probably told the tale of my brother who was certain he had kidney stones and was ready to go to the ER. He just started downing that Bragg's raw, unfiltered, organic apple cider vinegar and felt relief in 30 min. Never did have to go see a doctor. You should hear the witch doctor treatment of kidney stones....it's downright nasty, but apparently helps them pass faster as my land lady has told me.

Bob
01-19-2015, 08:21 PM
I have been offered a number of prescrip meds for various reasons. And when I have felt uncomfortable about them I kindly tell my doctor that I will think about it or that I am not interested. If I was suffering a great deal from the effects of chemo I would probably want something to ease my pain. Doesn't mean that prescrip is the only option available. I believe in essential oils although I largely cannot afford them, but from my preffered company offered something or a number of things that might help with those side effects, I just might try that first and then consider the prescription. That's largely the motto I like by. Home remedies and natural medicines first then the other.

Example whenever I feel anything, anything coming on, I turn to raw, unfiltered, organic apple cider vinegar. I take shots of it periodically throughout the day and drink as much water as I can stand. That usually takes care of it. I don't have serious issues, but I do NOT want to have to go to instacare for antibiotics for a sinus infection unless I have to. It is a last resort before I have tried all I can at home. I have probably told the tale of my brother who was certain he had kidney stones and was ready to go to the ER. He just started downing that Bragg's raw, unfiltered, organic apple cider vinegar and felt relief in 30 min. Never did have to go see a doctor. You should hear the witch doctor treatment of kidney stones....it's downright nasty, but apparently helps them pass faster as my land lady has told me.

I had open heart surgery bypass and of course put to sleep, felt nothing. Then I woke up in recovery and I believe they had pain meds on drip. I never took any by mouth. This young girl is no expert on her form of Cancer is my opinion. She would know she has an 85 percent chance to survive. I had a serious gall stone problem that was solved with surgery but no doctor suggested vinegar.

I try to consult actual experts. To many people assume they know medicine a lot more than doctors know.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 08:43 PM
I had open heart surgery bypass and of course put to sleep, felt nothing. Then I woke up in recovery and I believe they had pain meds on drip. I never took any by mouth. This young girl is no expert on her form of Cancer is my opinion. She would know she has an 85 percent chance to survive. I had a serious gall stone problem that was solved with surgery but no doctor suggested vinegar.

I try to consult actual experts. To many people assume they know medicine a lot more than doctors know.

What one also has to understand is that doctors are trained in "Western medicine." They don't learn alternative, natural, or homeopathic medicine unless they study it on their own or by going to further schooling. A doctor in my OBGYN office is not only an MD but a hollistic practicioner as well. He furthered his education after med school and practicing many years and seeing the benefits that he wanted to be certified in both areas to give his patients a more well-rounded approach to medicine. It is not a one-side card. Chiropractors in many instances are still seen as quack doctors and I won't ever pretend their schooling equates to the of an MD, but they learn a great deal about their field of medicine. It is merely a different field of study. Doctors don't know squat about adjusting the back and neck. Does that mean they don't know anything? NO, it just means they know what they know in their field and their form of medicine.

When it comes to surgery the Western realm owns that. 100%. I don't give them the same accreditation to other issues though. No doctor taught me how to create my own anesthesia through hypnosis. I did that. All me through the help of scripts. I created the anesthesia during child birth. No epidural. There was no comparison to which was better. They offered me what they could but I turned elsewhere for solutions.

And no doctor would suggest an alternative or home remedy. I never had one suggest I get the nasal cleanser to deal with sinus infections. That also has prevented me from instacare visits. Draining my sinus cavities with saline is all it took. Not hit to my immune system from overusing antibiotics.

I don't know more than a doctor, but I do know a few things that work for certain ailments. I also know the only thing a doctor could prescribe for my back pain is a prescription. Cthulhu can fix my back with a series of adjustments. That's it. As long as I bend the right way and don't injure it I am good.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 08:52 PM
It is not my choice either nor have I claimed it is my choice.

My hope is for the girl to recover so I voted for her life.

With no treatment, she faces an early death.

I recall a pretty blonde girl in high school that sat to my front. suddenly she quit coming to class. Some period of time the teacher told us all she was very ill fighting for her life. She must have been 15. Later in the year the teacher announced she died.

It was so sad. To not try to support her fight for life is too much for me to bear. I feel some family members won't help them fight for life.

As to the stk, I learned something new from you. I thought they happened all over the world on the same days.

Nope, each stake plans their conference per the stake and available dates. There are also ward conferences throughout the year which also land on different days every year. They plan it every year and it may be the same sunday of the same month, but it is typically the same month every year, every 6 months.

Dark Mistress
01-19-2015, 08:54 PM
It is not my choice either nor have I claimed it is my choice.

My hope is for the girl to recover so I voted for her life.

With no treatment, she faces an early death.

I recall a pretty blonde girl in high school that sat to my front. suddenly she quit coming to class. Some period of time the teacher told us all she was very ill fighting for her life. She must have been 15. Later in the year the teacher announced she died.

It was so sad. To not try to support her fight for life is too much for me to bear. I feel some family members won't help them fight for life.

As to the stk, I learned something new from you. I thought they happened all over the world on the same days.

We can fight for life in different ways. There isn't just one way to save a life. I now have the song "how to save a life" in my head. Ever heard it? I loved it back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVQ36NhbMk

CreepyOldDude
01-21-2015, 03:22 PM
We all know of stories where the family shunned all medical help. And some poor child simply dies. We know those stories because when the law finds out, they put the guilty family on trial.

This kid is dying. She has an 85 percent chance with the state and no chance with her parents.

I feel sorry for her.

Too bad i can't get more posters to feel sorry for the child.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I feel bad for the kid. It's a terrible thing to have to face your own mortality at such a young age.

But, if she wants to try some alternative, I'd have to agree that, unless her alternative has a better chance of five year survival than chemo, she should be made to go with chemo.

Bob
01-21-2015, 03:30 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong. I feel bad for the kid. It's a terrible thing to have to face your own mortality at such a young age.

But, if she wants to try some alternative, I'd have to agree that, unless her alternative has a better chance of five year survival than chemo, she should be made to go with chemo.

It is too bad we don't come at this with full medical knowledge. I admit to being poor in this subject. Maybe my feeling to save her life is overwhelming. Choice but to death at her age seems way more than tragic.

I have seen parents on Dr. Phil actually approve a lot of bad things their children do so to refuse Chemo does not really shock me.

We have parents approving their 15 year old daughter having sex at the parents home. We have parents approving drinking. Some even actively promote stealing.

So, I am not surprised.

Bob
01-21-2015, 03:33 PM
We can fight for life in different ways. There isn't just one way to save a life. I now have the song "how to save a life" in my head. Ever heard it? I loved it back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVQ36NhbMk

When one knows a treatment is 85 percent successful, at least it is life. I know of no alternative, nor has one been suggested by any poster, that gives her that good of a chance to grow old.

Some are bent on some alternative. I am lousy at medical topics but even at my advanced age, something is wrong when the suggestion is given with no odds of success. Just a hunch it might work. And some feel bad about Chemo. I feel bad about such a young girl dying.

Once she dies, her parents can't simply say ooooooops, let's try the other option.

Bob
01-21-2015, 03:34 PM
Nope, each stake plans their conference per the stake and available dates. There are also ward conferences throughout the year which also land on different days every year. They plan it every year and it may be the same sunday of the same month, but it is typically the same month every year, every 6 months.

I shall pick up this years schedule. Thanks.

Bob
01-21-2015, 03:39 PM
What one also has to understand is that doctors are trained in "Western medicine." They don't learn alternative, natural, or homeopathic medicine unless they study it on their own or by going to further schooling. A doctor in my OBGYN office is not only an MD but a hollistic practicioner as well. He furthered his education after med school and practicing many years and seeing the benefits that he wanted to be certified in both areas to give his patients a more well-rounded approach to medicine. It is not a one-side card. Chiropractors in many instances are still seen as quack doctors and I won't ever pretend their schooling equates to the of an MD, but they learn a great deal about their field of medicine. It is merely a different field of study. Doctors don't know squat about adjusting the back and neck. Does that mean they don't know anything? NO, it just means they know what they know in their field and their form of medicine.

When it comes to surgery the Western realm owns that. 100%. I don't give them the same accreditation to other issues though. No doctor taught me how to create my own anesthesia through hypnosis. I did that. All me through the help of scripts. I created the anesthesia during child birth. No epidural. There was no comparison to which was better. They offered me what they could but I turned elsewhere for solutions.

And no doctor would suggest an alternative or home remedy. I never had one suggest I get the nasal cleanser to deal with sinus infections. That also has prevented me from instacare visits. Draining my sinus cavities with saline is all it took. Not hit to my immune system from overusing antibiotics.

I don't know more than a doctor, but I do know a few things that work for certain ailments. I also know the only thing a doctor could prescribe for my back pain is a prescription. Cthulhu can fix my back with a series of adjustments. That's it. As long as I bend the right way and don't injure it I am good.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am a naive person when it comes to medicine or the western vs the alternative. I admit fully my weakness. But I would want my child to have chemo given the success rate. She would live. I fear this child would not live given her parents. Somebody told her what to think. I am certain of that. At age 12, nobody thinks of Chemo but the adults. And she got this idea of Chemo at age 12.

Dark Mistress
01-22-2015, 12:09 AM
When one knows a treatment is 85 percent successful, at least it is life. I know of no alternative, nor has one been suggested by any poster, that gives her that good of a chance to grow old.

Some are bent on some alternative. I am lousy at medical topics but even at my advanced age, something is wrong when the suggestion is given with no odds of success. Just a hunch it might work. And some feel bad about Chemo. I feel bad about such a young girl dying.

Once she dies, her parents can't simply say ooooooops, let's try the other option.
Understand also what that statistic means. It means that percentage were dubbed in "remission" because no cancerous cells were detected in their bodies after treatment. Remission does not always mean cancer free and quite often the cancer returns or rather if there is even one cancerous cell remaining after treatment it can continue reproducing and spreading in the same fashion it sis before. In many cases it can spread faster because the body is so weak and damaged after cancer. The statistic does not always mean what they want you to believe it means. It can include those who go and do chemo again and don't make it. Statistics can be skewed to show what they want them to show. That is why stats don't often mean crap for me. There are so many variables left out of a statistic that we just never know.