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Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:14 PM
This is interesting. Glad to see it happening.

http://ens-newswire.com/2015/01/10/u-s-to-ban-foreign-fish-caught-by-killing-whales-dolphins/


NEW YORK, New York, January 9, 2015 (ENS) – In a landmark settlement with three environmental groups, the U.S. government has agreed to adopt new rules that ensure seafood imported into the United States meets high standards for protecting whales and dolphins.The plaintiffs: Center for Biological Diversity, Turtle Island Restoration Network and the Natural Resources Defense Council – nonprofit groups representing a total of more than two million people – won Monday’s settlement in the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York.
The Court of International Trade, established under Article III of the U.S. Constitution, has nationwide jurisdiction over civil actions arising out of the customs and international trade laws of the United States.

“The new regulations will force other countries to step up and meet U.S. conservation standards – saving hundreds of thousands of whales and dolphins from dying on hooks and in fishing nets around the world,” said Sarah Uhlemann, senior attorney and international program director of the Center for Biological Diversity. “The U.S. government has finally recognized that all seafood consumed in the United States must be ‘dolphin-safe.’ ”
Each year more than 650,000 whales, dolphins and other marine mammals are caught and killed in fishing gear somewhere in the world. These animals are unintentional “bycatch” of commercial fisheries.
Whales and dolphins become entangled in tuna nets; they are then crushed and killed in the net-pulling winches of the fishing boats. Or they drown in the

nets or are tossed overboard to die from their injuries.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 01:20 PM
This was already to some degree in voluntary practice, no?

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 01:22 PM
Changes to equipment & nets could save a lot of the unintended catch. Several years ago local shrimpers objected to TED's in their shrimp trawls. Turtle extruder devices are large openings in the nets to allow sea turtles to escape. The shrimpers were afraid they would lose shrimp out those openings. Now, they have discovered they are not losing enough shrimp to be a problem...but they are saving $$$ because the turtles are not destroying the shrimp nets. Maybe enforcement of changes to other devices will have a positive result also.

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:26 PM
Changes to equipment & nets could save a lot of the unintended catch. Several years ago local shrimpers objected to TED's in their shrimp trawls. Turtle extruder devices are large openings in the nets to allow sea turtles to escape. The shrimpers were afraid they would lose shrimp out those openings. Now, they have discovered they are not losing enough shrimp to be a problem...but they are saving $$$ because the turtles are not destroying the shrimp nets. Maybe enforcement of changes to other devices will have a positive result also.

Right. Whatever you just said. I agree.

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 01:28 PM
Right. Whatever you just said. I agree.

I'm so glad you approve....

Bob
02-02-2015, 01:30 PM
Changes to equipment & nets could save a lot of the unintended catch. Several years ago local shrimpers objected to TED's in their shrimp trawls. Turtle extruder devices are large openings in the nets to allow sea turtles to escape. The shrimpers were afraid they would lose shrimp out those openings. Now, they have discovered they are not losing enough shrimp to be a problem...but they are saving $$$ because the turtles are not destroying the shrimp nets. Maybe enforcement of changes to other devices will have a positive result also.

How do turtles find the openings? I have long wondered since the nets are pretty big, how a turtle can locate some opening?

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 01:33 PM
I think it's cute that you care so much about whales and dolphins. What's next on the agenda, chaining yourself to a tree to stop builders from encroaching on forest creatures?

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 01:35 PM
I think it's cute that you care so much about whales and dolphins. What's next on the agenda, chaining yourself to a tree to stop builders from encroaching on forest creatures?

He is fishing for something other than whales.... :wink:

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:35 PM
I think it's cute that you care so much about whales and dolphins. What's next on the agenda, chaining yourself to a tree to stop builders from encroaching on forest creatures?

Don't you have to plan the rape of some third world country right about now?

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 01:35 PM
Bob:
The use of the devices ideally allow all bycatch larger than ten centimeters (10 cm.) to escape the nets unharmed. This selectivity is achieved by metal grids integrated into the trawl net structure. The grids act as a barrier for large creatures such as turtles from passing through the bars into the back of the net.
A small opening in the net is then available either above or below the grid so that the creatures that are stopped by the TEDs are allowed to escape the net, relatively unharmed. Targeted species such as shrimp however, are pushed to the back of the net.

wiki

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 01:38 PM
Don't you have to plan the rape of some third world country right about now?

Thanks to you I have nothing to do right now other than to ask you about ecomanagement. Tell us about these new safe fishing practices again.

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:39 PM
Thanks to you I have nothing to do right now other than to ask you about ecomanagement. Tell us about these new safe fishing practices again.

I was right about to but then PolWatch posted the wiki on it.

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:40 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013):
The use of the devices ideally allow all bycatch larger than ten centimeters (10 cm.) to escape the nets unharmed. This selectivity is achieved by metal grids integrated into the trawl net structure. The grids act as a barrier for large creatures such as turtles from passing through the bars into the back of the net.
A small opening in the net is then available either above or below the grid so that the creatures that are stopped by the TEDs are allowed to escape the net, relatively unharmed. Targeted species such as shrimp however, are pushed to the back of the net.

wiki


Thanks for educating us, pol.

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 01:43 PM
Animal Mother -

We do share a great interest in environmental issues in the Gulf of Mexico and other places....don't we?

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 01:43 PM
Animal Mother how did you know you were eating dolphin and whales safe fish? Was there an article or news program you watched that alerted you to what you should look for?

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:45 PM
It's labeled on the tuna can.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 01:48 PM
Oh. On the tuna can, I see. And what drew you to posting on this cause today? I've never really noticed special forces types to have such an interest in things other than when and where to use their "gun".

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 01:49 PM
hmm...since it seems to be getting kinda deep in here, can I suggest a new pair of Bayou la Batre Reeboks?

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608054652442250247&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Bob
02-02-2015, 01:51 PM
@Animal Mother (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1166) -

We do share a great interest in environmental issues in the Gulf of Mexico and other places....don't we?

I hope the posters don't get the notion that the waters are not tightly regulated.

When I worked in pile driving, we had to remove some piling at the Chevron Oil Refinery at Richmond, CA

We got briefed to never allow a piece of the creosoted piling to end up in the SF Bay. We had to instantly remove all of it. Now, the piling was always touching the water. But we were told of a super heavy fine just for pieces of wood being allowed in the water. I don't believe the Government goes easy on those working in the waters. I experienced it first hand.

I last worked on the SF bay in 1979 but at the time I was informed by the company the fine for leaving piling pieces in the bay was ten thousand dollars per occurrence. I expect it is higher now.

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 01:53 PM
Oh. On the tuna can, I see. And what drew you to posting on this cause today? I've never really noticed special forces types to have such an interest in things other than when and where to use their "gun".

You were probably too busy overthrowing Qaddafi to do a random sampling on how we feel about the environment. Anyway, I'm not the topic. The topic is the change in law thanks to the work of some environmental groups. Do you have an opinion on that?

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 01:58 PM
You were probably too busy overthrowing Qaddafi to do a random sampling on how we feel about the environment. Anyway, I'm not the topic. The topic is the change in law thanks to the work of some environmental groups. Do you have an opinion on that?

It's a great law. Who doesn't love whales and dolphins? I just don't know much about the subject and wanted more information on it. Can you explain what difference we'll see on the shelves?

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 02:00 PM
It's a great law. Who doesn't love whales and dolphins? I just don't know much about the subject and wanted more information on it. Can you explain what difference we'll see on the shelves?

I know just who would love to answer you on this subject. Bob

Bob can you please explain how this will effect her as a consumer?

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 02:00 PM
:rollseyes:

nic34
02-02-2015, 02:06 PM
I know just who would love to answer you on this subject. @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

Bob can you please explain how this will effect her as a consumer?

It might be useful to have Chloe stop by and give a little history on our "interest in whales and dolphins". :grin:

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 02:06 PM
I know just who would love to answer you on this subject. @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

Bob can you please explain how this will effect her as a consumer?

Why can't you explain it? It's your thread, darling.

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 02:08 PM
Not that I have to justify shit to anyone but I grew up within 30 minutes of the beach, spent a lot of time taking pictures of dolphins when I was younger and while I was at Little Creek I went swimming with them. I actually do care about the oceans and the environment.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 02:12 PM
Not that I have to justify $#@! to anyone but I grew up within 30 minutes of the beach, spent a lot of time taking pictures of dolphins when I was younger and while I was at Little Creek I went swimming with them. I actually do care about the oceans and the environment.

How sweet of you! Im happy for yoy to have such a passion for wildlife. So Chloe is the resident whale girl we should be conversing with?

Animal Mother
02-02-2015, 02:15 PM
How sweet of you! Im happy for yoy to have such a passion for wildlife. So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) is the resident whale girl we should be conversing with?

Chloe is a young, college student that is majoring in environmental studies. Sometimes we discuss environmental issues because we both like whales and dolphins but that's pretty much it. Seriously.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 02:21 PM
Chloe is a young, college student that is majoring in environmental studies. Sometimes we discuss environmental issues because we both like whales and dolphins but that's pretty much it. Seriously.

That's good to know. As a wiccan I am a great believer in stewardship. We'll have lots to discuss.

Bob
02-02-2015, 02:30 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013):
The use of the devices ideally allow all bycatch larger than ten centimeters (10 cm.) to escape the nets unharmed. This selectivity is achieved by metal grids integrated into the trawl net structure. The grids act as a barrier for large creatures such as turtles from passing through the bars into the back of the net.
A small opening in the net is then available either above or below the grid so that the creatures that are stopped by the TEDs are allowed to escape the net, relatively unharmed. Targeted species such as shrimp however, are pushed to the back of the net.

wiki

Nets might look simple but I know that what appears simple is often a lot more complex. I need to see photos. But thanks for the help since I know how to find out what I want to know. I believe I get the idea though. Thanks.

Bob
02-02-2015, 02:32 PM
I know just who would love to answer you on this subject. @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

Bob can you please explain how this will effect her as a consumer?

I can see where it might cost her more for seafood. I can see where it will help the marine life. But I honestly am not up to speed on your topic.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 02:47 PM
I can see where it might cost her more for seafood. I can see where it will help the marine life. But I honestly am not up to speed on your topic.

When has that stopped you before?

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 02:58 PM
I am very interested in this topic and since "Animal Mother" is unable to respond I hope that this Chloe person comes on so that we can ask her questions.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 02:58 PM
I am very interested in this topic and since "Animal Mother" is unable to respond I hope that this @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) person comes on so that we can ask her questions.

Hopefully a catfight ensues.

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 03:00 PM
all kidding aside, Chloe is very well informed on environmental issues...

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:02 PM
Hopefully a catfight ensues.

Aren't you fun? Even if I were inclined in that direction I would only have to wait. Leopards don't change their spots. I really just want to see what she insert on the topic since obviously our OP has no clue.

Bob
02-02-2015, 03:04 PM
all kidding aside, Chloe is very well informed on environmental issues...

4 year of college in it. She ought to be well informed. (not being snarky)

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:04 PM
all kidding aside, Chloe is very well informed on environmental issues...

As I've said, I'm very pro-environment myself so I look forward to her posts.

I'm just slightly surprised that other posters have taken an interest. I've been educated to the contrary and now I just want to hear more about swimming with dolphins at Little Creek.

Bob
02-02-2015, 03:05 PM
I am very interested in this topic and since "Animal Mother" is unable to respond I hope that this @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) person comes on so that we can ask her questions.

She has not shown up in a few days I think. But of all of us, she is the most informed on such matters.

Bob
02-02-2015, 03:07 PM
When has that stopped you before?

I realize you love fights, but i speak on things I am well informed about. The rest I ask questions.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 03:08 PM
Aren't you fun? Even if I were inclined in that direction I would only have to wait. Leopards don't change their spots. I really just want to see what she insert on the topic since obviously our OP has no clue.
Chloe 's hardened since first joining tPF.

Don't let her reputation fool you, I bet she comes at you with claws and fangs.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 03:08 PM
This was the result of a court decision based off of repeated violations of international treaty. Again, as I've repeatedly said, regulations are slow moving and often are too late to effect change. These particular "rules" have been in effect for close to 2 decades before we enacted punitive measures.

As for Chloe TrixWitch she's a lovely girl and someone I have the utmost respect for.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 03:10 PM
I realize you love fights, but i speak on things I am well informed about. The rest I ask questions.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/yeah_sure_jon_hamm.gif

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:12 PM
This was the result of a court decision based off of repeated violations of international treaty. Again, as I've repeatedly said, regulations are slow moving and often are too late to effect change. These particular "rules" have been in effect for close to 2 decades before we enacted punitive measures.

As for Chloe @TrixWitch (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1394) she's a lovely girl and someone I have the utmost respect for.

Better some regulations than no regulations.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 03:15 PM
Better some regulations than no regulations.

What good are they when they take 2 decades to work? You might as well have stabbed 4,000 dolphins in the meantime for all the good the regulation did.

Justice doesn't take decades to work. Justice would be people boarding the ships breaking the law and throwing their nets overboard.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:17 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) 's hardened since first joining tPF.

Don't let her reputation fool you, I bet she comes at you with claws and fangs.

That might be fun. I wonder if it would remain a spectator sport or if others would join in? :wink:

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:18 PM
What good are they when they take 2 decades to work? You might as well have stabbed 4,000 dolphins in the meantime for all the good the regulation did.

Justice doesn't take decades to work. Justice would be people boarding the ships breaking the law and throwing their nets overboard.

Vigilante justice is not justice.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 03:19 PM
Vigilante justice is not justice.

Of course it is. It's just not "pretty".

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:25 PM
Of course it is. It's just not "pretty".

And if everyone went around boarding ships and raiding businesses we'd look like a banana republic. Thanks but I'd rather not live that way. Environmental regulations may be slow, but as polwatch explained they do work.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 03:29 PM
And if everyone went around boarding ships and raiding businesses we'd look like a banana republic. Thanks but I'd rather not live that way. Environmental regulations may be slow, but as polwatch explained they do work.

Yes, we've been informed. Usually years and several fines later when it becomes more cost effective to make the change than pay the fine, meanwhile people and the environment suffer.

Order is just order. It doesn't mean that things are running well or optimal. We had order in the Soviet Union. I orderly waited in line with mom for 7 hours to get sanitary napkins.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:40 PM
Yes, we've been informed. Usually years and several fines later when it becomes more cost effective to make the change than pay the fine, meanwhile people and the environment suffer.

Order is just order. It doesn't mean that things are running well or optimal. We had order in the Soviet Union. I orderly waited in line with mom for 7 hours to get sanitary napkins.

People would also suffer if you raided their private property like a bunch of commando goons.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 03:49 PM
You were probably too busy overthrowing Qaddafi to do a random sampling on how we feel about the environment. Anyway, I'm not the topic. The topic is the change in law thanks to the work of some environmental groups. Do you have an opinion on that?


Correct. The whales are all that matter.

I know someone who would join up for the cause.... :smiley:

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 03:52 PM
I am very interested in this topic and since "Animal Mother" is unable to respond I hope that this @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) person comes on so that we can ask her questions.

She will have it covered. And maybe the ruse will work.

Fingers crossed.

Polecat
02-02-2015, 03:52 PM
Animal needs to throw out some fresher bait. Not even a nibble so far.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 03:53 PM
People would also suffer if you raided their private property like a bunch of commando goons.

People wouldn't suffer if they didn't act in a way contradictory to the rights of others.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:55 PM
People wouldn't suffer if they didn't act in a way contradictory to the rights of others.

There are other ways, the courts for example, to make a difference. You of all people should know this.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 03:56 PM
She will have it covered. And maybe the ruse will work.

Fingers crossed.


I'm not all that impressed by what I've read thus far, but maybe Animal is easily amused these days. He didn't used to be. :tongue:

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 03:58 PM
I'm not all that impressed by what I've read thus far, but maybe Animal is easily amused these days. He didn't used to be. :tongue:

I wouldn't use the term amused.... Explain those last 5 words, please. :wink:

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 04:01 PM
There are other ways, the courts for example, to make a difference. You of all people should know this.

I do know how the courts work which is why I advocate a proactive approach.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 04:03 PM
I do know how the courts work which is why I advocate a proactive approach.

Then run off and be a pirate then and when they shoot you I'll send word to your mother that you were a Darwin Award recipient.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 04:07 PM
Then run off and be a pirate then and when they shoot you I'll send word to your mother that you were a Darwin Award recipient.

If these vessels have the money for private security they would also have the money to purchase the necessary equipment rather than break with International Law. IF I picked my battle and IF it was whale safe nets then I would live with the consequences of my actions.

As to the Darwin comment, the same could have been said of you with your USAID career choice had some nation been disgruntled by how well you "helped" them out. If you believe in something and accept the danger, even should the worst happen you are not a Darwin award recipient, you are a person of integrity.

Also, quit being a bitch in this thread thanks. :)

The Sage of Main Street
02-02-2015, 04:08 PM
This is interesting. Glad to see it happening.

http://ens-newswire.com/2015/01/10/u-s-to-ban-foreign-fish-caught-by-killing-whales-dolphins/ Flipper does not have a vote, but somehow he cancels out millions of citizens' votes. If Flipper wants a vote, he should evolve into a human.

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 04:09 PM
Flipper does not have a vote, but somehow he cancels out millions of citizens' votes. If Flipper wants a vote, he should evolve into a human.

he tried to vote but didn't have an ID card

The Sage of Main Street
02-02-2015, 04:15 PM
Changes to equipment & nets could save a lot of the unintended catch. Several years ago local shrimpers objected to TED's in their shrimp trawls. Turtle extruder *excluder devices are large openings in the nets to allow sea turtles to escape. The shrimpers were afraid they would lose shrimp out those openings. Now, they have discovered they are not losing enough shrimp to be a problem...but they are saving $$$ because the turtles are not destroying the shrimp nets. Maybe enforcement of changes to other devices will have a positive result also. Since Trustfundie Treehuggers have a class hatred of people who have to work for a living, they must be pretty disappointed when their intended humiliation of us has a positive result.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 04:16 PM
If these vessels have the money for private security they would also have the money to purchase the necessary equipment rather than break with International Law. IF I picked my battle and IF it was whale safe nets then I would live with the consequences of my actions.

As to the Darwin comment, the same could have been said of you with your USAID career choice had some nation been disgruntled by how well you "helped" them out. If you believe in something and accept the danger, even should the worst happen you are not a Darwin award recipient, you are a person of integrity.

Also, quit being a bitch in this thread thanks. :)

OPSEC ladies.

Continue.... :smiley:

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 04:20 PM
Since Trustfundie Treehuggers have a class hatred of people who have to work for a living, they must be pretty disappointed when their intended humiliation of us has a positive result.

And what happens when the triumphant nonpreppyworkingman is forced to live with the fact that all that's left of the ocean is algae and bottom feeders? Will he be proud?

There is a practical reason for these public restraints.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 04:24 PM
Agreed there is reason, just like there is a reason for order.

The Sage of Main Street
02-02-2015, 04:25 PM
Correct. The whales are all that matter.

I know someone who would join up for the cause.... :smiley: Call me Ishmael. A whale sank my ship and killed all my friends. In my century, no adult had a childish view about animals.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 04:27 PM
Agreed there is reason, just like there is a reason for order.

What is not orderly about use of force in defense of a principle? Do you expect people to go quietly into servitude to corporate and government overlords?

If any government cared enough they would board vessels, kick in doors at plants, but they do not. So what should a concerned group of citizens do when government proves its apathy?

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 04:29 PM
What is not orderly about use of force in defense of a principle? Do you expect people to go quietly into servitude to corporate and government overlords?

If any government cared enough they would board vessels, kick in doors at plants, but they do not. So what should a concerned group of citizens do when government proves its apathy?

Do YOUR job and take them to court. Get a settlement. That's what a concerned citizen does.

The Sage of Main Street
02-02-2015, 04:31 PM
he tried to vote but didn't have an ID card

Obambam was shuckin' and golfin'
And gave amnesty to a dolphin

Chloe
02-02-2015, 06:04 PM
Ok so I've been mentioned like a half dozen times in this thread it seems. What exactly do you guys need from me on the topic or what's the main question here??? I havent read through it all yet.

Common Sense
02-02-2015, 06:05 PM
Ok so I've been mentioned like a half dozen times in this thread it seems. What exactly do you guys need from me on the topic or what's the main question here??? I havent read through it all yet.

LOL...you've been type casted.


I think the OP was an overture to you...;)

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 06:05 PM
Ok so I've been mentioned like a half dozen times in this thread it seems. What exactly do you guys need from me on the topic or what's the main question here??? I havent read through it all yet.

Hi Chloe. Animal made a thread for you.

Chloe
02-02-2015, 06:10 PM
How sweet of you! Im happy for yoy to have such a passion for wildlife. So @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) is the resident whale girl we should be conversing with?
TrixWitch I'm sorry what's your question for me?

Chloe
02-02-2015, 06:13 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) 's hardened since first joining tPF.

Don't let her reputation fool you, I bet she comes at you with claws and fangs.

I guess we will see :)

id probably be a little more stealthy than simple claws and fangs

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 06:16 PM
@TrixWitch (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1394) I'm sorry what's your question for me?

Yes. I have a few questions.

1. What sort of nets are they supposed to be using and what impact will this have on the wild dolphin and whale populations?

2. Which counties were involved in this behavior?

3. What impact will this ruling have on the commercial fishing economies?

Chloe
02-02-2015, 06:34 PM
Yes. I have a few questions.

1. What sort of nets are they supposed to be using and what impact will this have on the wild dolphin and whale populations?

2. Which counties were involved in this behavior?

3. What impact will this ruling have on the commercial fishing economies?

Oh TrixWitch I'm sorry but this may be a little out of my range since this really isn't a common topic (nets and such) in my major. Fisheries majors would definitely know about this though, especially regarding specific nets and details like that, but I'll try anyway.

I know that trawling the ocean floor is the main type of commercial fishing that causes the most environmental issues since it basically scrapes the sea floor and catches many species that are not the intended target of fisherman. It's damaging effects on deep sea coral and other ocean floor communities of species is well documented and often the primary victim in order to put things like shrimp on your dinner plate. Bottom trawling is illegal in a several countries but once out of those waters it's still a free for all basically with no real authority in the water to enforce or educate.

As for the impact I would imagine that without a legitimate way to punish people for destroying the oceans and it's life it shouldn't affect those fisherman that put profit over the health of an ecosystem very much unfortunately. I would hope that it would make life extremely difficult for those that contribute to the decline of our oceans but it's hard to be optimistic at the moment.

The OP is talking about nets that catch bycatch like turtles , dolphins, and so on so that would be more of your mid water trawling. It's irresponsible fishing in my opinion as are most commercial practices.

I should clarify for you though so there is no confusion that I am not an advocate for the fishing industry nor do I care about their possible inability to turn a profit due to increasing regulation and enforcement.

Chris
02-02-2015, 06:59 PM
Chloe, I'm wondering do you in your courses come across libertarian solutions to these problems? Of the sort that says, yes, fishermen fish for profit, so is there a way to show or teach them that what they're doing, harming the ecosystem, can only do harm in the long run to their profits, or their children's, and grandchildren's?

Surely fishermen as a group should understand this and perhaps even impose some self-regulation already. I don't know, just guessing, they want to preserve their source of income.

I'm guessing what we're seeing here is a good example of the tragedy of the commons where because no one owns the fishing grounds everyone who can exploits it to get their fair share.

It's just that your solutions tend to the carceral (just learned that word so trying to use it!).

PolWatch
02-02-2015, 07:25 PM
I'm not sure about how the larger operations work but the smaller, family fisherman in our area are very aware of their responsibilities. Off season oystermen are usually working seeding oyster beds. Its not unusual for shrimpers to report people who are shrimping in restricted areas where the shrimp are too small. Many years ago large numbers of Vietnamese fisherman were moved to our area. The local fishermen & shrimpers were not happy when they found they were taking everything they caught with no regard to size, etc.

The people I am talking about are small, family businesses that have been earning a living from the Gulf for generations. The Gulf is not owned by anyone but it supports many who take their responsibilities very seriously.

Chloe
02-02-2015, 07:27 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), I'm wondering do you in your courses come across libertarian solutions to these problems? Of the sort that says, yes, fishermen fish for profit, so is there a way to show or teach them that what they're doing, harming the ecosystem, can only do harm in the long run to their profits, or their children's, and grandchildren's?

Surely fishermen as a group should understand this and perhaps even impose some self-regulation already. I don't know, just guessing, they want to preserve their source of income.

I'm guessing what we're seeing here is a good example of the tragedy of the commons where because no one owns the fishing grounds everyone who can exploits it to get their fair share.

Well to be fair not everyone studying environmental studies/environmental sciences shares my views and opinions. We will have classroom discussions at times and you'd be surprised of how many people want to make industries like this more efficient, safer, and profitable for the fishermen and companies. People seem to think that if you are studying environmental science that you must be a vegan, pot smoking, communist, hippy type person but that's not really true. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a good percentage of my graduating class are libertarians and will go that route after graduation. Almost everyone I've met on my campus studying what I'm studying has a different reason as to why they are studying it and what they want to do with it.

Chris
02-02-2015, 07:35 PM
Well to be fair not everyone studying environmental studies/environmental sciences shares my views and opinions. We will have classroom discussions at times and you'd be surprised of how many people want to make industries like this more efficient, safer, and profitable for the fishermen and companies. People seem to think that if you are studying environmental science that you must be a vegan, pot smoking, communist, hippy type person but that's not really true. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a good percentage of my graduating class are libertarians and will go that route after graduation. Almost everyone I've met on my campus studying what I'm studying has a different reason as to why they are studying it and what they want to do with it.

That's good to hear!

A recommended book if I might: Terry L. Anderson's Free Market Environmentalism. It presents a libertarian approach.

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 08:18 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), I'm wondering do you in your courses come across libertarian solutions to these problems? Of the sort that says, yes, fishermen fish for profit, so is there a way to show or teach them that what they're doing, harming the ecosystem, can only do harm in the long run to their profits, or their children's, and grandchildren's?

Surely fishermen as a group should understand this and perhaps even impose some self-regulation already. I don't know, just guessing, they want to preserve their source of income.

I'm guessing what we're seeing here is a good example of the tragedy of the commons where because no one owns the fishing grounds everyone who can exploits it to get their fair share.

It's just that your solutions tend to the carceral (just learned that word so trying to use it!).
You will note that this tragedy of the commons occurs when there is no concerted effort by those with rules and legislation to enforce said rules and legislation at the market end of the equation. This would not be a carceral solution, since it only involves refusing product that is not harvested responsibly or holistically, rather than the prosecution and jailing of the malfeasors, notwithstanding the harassment of same by environmental groups. At the same time, there are those who use the commons responsibly, ergo the tragedy of the commons is based on greed and ignorance and in this instance by business owners seeking to maximize their haul with little to no regard for the collateral damage caused to a resource that is not theirs to destroy.

Polecat
02-02-2015, 08:28 PM
Ok so I've been mentioned like a half dozen times in this thread it seems. What exactly do you guys need from me on the topic or what's the main question here??? I havent read through it all yet.

My impression was that Animal was presenting you with a peace offering. A bouquet of roses in the form of a shallow tear shed for the whale. Alas, the mighty marine mammal we all love is not only a majestic creature of the sea but good eating in certain cuisines. Succumb to his charms and you may find yourself hair pulling with a conquest of days gone by.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 08:32 PM
My impression was that Animal was presenting you with a peace offering. A bouquet of roses in the form of a shallow tear shed for the whale. Alas, the mighty marine mammal we all love is not only a majestic creature of the sea but good eating in certain cuisines. Succumb to his charms and you may find yourself hair pulling with a conquest of days gone by.

He's a little too fast for a fourth year environmental studies major. She's better off sticking with the whales.

Chris
02-02-2015, 08:45 PM
You will note that this tragedy of the commons occurs when there is no concerted effort by those with rules and legislation to enforce said rules and legislation at the market end of the equation. This would not be a carceral solution, since it only involves refusing product that is not harvested responsibly or holistically, rather than the prosecution and jailing of the malfeasors, notwithstanding the harassment of same by environmental groups. At the same time, there are those who use the commons responsibly, ergo the tragedy of the commons is based on greed and ignorance and in this instance by business owners seeking to maximize their haul with little to no regard for the collateral damage caused to a resource that is not theirs to destroy.

Who are 'those with rules and legislation" other than government? And how are these rules enforced without penalties?

Refuse product? IOW, government forces consumers to refuse some products. By simple law of supply and demand, you will raise prices, and that's carceral in punishing consumers for their choices.


the tragedy of the commons is based on greed and ignorance and in this instance by business owners seeking to maximize their haul with little to no regard for the collateral damage caused to a resource that is not theirs to destroy.

Indeed it is caused by our natural greed if only to have our fair share. But must restriction be carceral?


I don't want to go into the commons tragedy again, I just wanted to suggest alternative approaches to saving the environment.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 08:58 PM
Where is the nice stuff for Animal?
Oh @TrixWitch (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1394) I'm sorry but this may be a little out of my range since this really isn't a common topic (nets and such) in my major. Fisheries majors would definitely know about this though, especially regarding specific nets and details like that, but I'll try anyway.

I know that trawling the ocean floor is the main type of commercial fishing that causes the most environmental issues since it basically scrapes the sea floor and catches many species that are not the intended target of fisherman. It's damaging effects on deep sea coral and other ocean floor communities of species is well documented and often the primary victim in order to put things like shrimp on your dinner plate. Bottom trawling is illegal in a several countries but once out of those waters it's still a free for all basically with no real authority in the water to enforce or educate.

As for the impact I would imagine that without a legitimate way to punish people for destroying the oceans and it's life it shouldn't affect those fisherman that put profit over the health of an ecosystem very much unfortunately. I would hope that it would make life extremely difficult for those that contribute to the decline of our oceans but it's hard to be optimistic at the moment.

The OP is talking about nets that catch bycatch like turtles , dolphins, and so on so that would be more of your mid water trawling. It's irresponsible fishing in my opinion as are most commercial practices.

I should clarify for you though so there is no confusion that I am not an advocate for the fishing industry nor do I care about their possible inability to turn a profit due to increasing regulation and enforcement.

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 09:07 PM
Who are 'those with rules and legislation" other than government? And how are these rules enforced without penalties?

Refuse product? IOW, government forces consumers to refuse some products. By simple law of supply and demand, you will raise prices, and that's carceral in punishing consumers for their choices.



Indeed it is caused by our natural greed if only to have our fair share. But must restriction be carceral?


I don't want to go into the commons tragedy again, I just wanted to suggest alternative approaches to saving the environment.
Carceral comes from the latin word - to jail, as in incarcerate. Perhaps if you are using it symbolically, but I still don't believe that is true. If fishing must be ethical, in order to to preserve the fish beyond our own generation, and that also means preserving the entire ecosystem of the fish, then the cost will likely go up. Let's face it you also pay more for a filet of beef than for a piece of chuck. I don't see anyone protesting the fact that beef filet costs more. There are farmed fish for those who don't want to pay the freight. We cannot continue to vacuum up the fish we want, with the creatures that we do not want, without destroying the ocean ecosystem. It is rather like the old practice of clear cutting in forestry. If we do not put the penalties or restrictions at the point of import, there is no other effective way of preventing oceanic abuse, at least until the majority of the buying public has the same ethical considerations, which is probably rather idealistic at this point.

TrixWitch
02-02-2015, 09:10 PM
Where is the nice stuff for Animal?

Yes, a noticeable silence. I detect a distinct lack of care on the part of Chloe for Animal Mother. One might think that he's barking up the wrong tree, pun intended.

That is if he's still barking.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 09:14 PM
Carceral comes from the latin word - to jail, as in incarcerate. Perhaps if you are using it symbolically, but I still don't believe that is true. If fishing must be ethical, in order to to preserve the fish beyond our own generation, and that also means preserving the entire ecosystem of the fish, then the cost will likely go up. Let's face it you also pay more for a filet of beef than for a piece of chuck. I don't see anyone protesting the fact that beef filet costs more. There are farmed fish for those who don't want to pay the freight. We cannot continue to vacuum up the fish we want, with the creatures that we do not want, without destroying the ocean ecosystem. It is rather like the old practice of clear cutting in forestry. If we do not put the penalties or restrictions at the point of import, there is no other effective way of preventing oceanic abuse, at least until the majority of the buying public has the same ethical considerations, which is probably rather idealistic at this point.

Well said.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 09:16 PM
Yes, a noticeable silence. I detect a distinct lack of care on the part of @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) for @Animal Mother (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1166). One might think that he's barking up the wrong tree, pun intended.

That is if he's still barking.

Codename Section is barking up no one's tree, nor are a great many of the other dogs who are running around. Sometimes we only want things in life when other people have them. That inclination ought to be tempered, imo.

Chloe
02-02-2015, 09:57 PM
10350

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 10:08 PM
Chloe you can ignore the crap and read Dr. Who's last post. It was pretty good.

Chloe
02-02-2015, 10:16 PM
You will note that this tragedy of the commons occurs when there is no concerted effort by those with rules and legislation to enforce said rules and legislation at the market end of the equation. This would not be a carceral solution, since it only involves refusing product that is not harvested responsibly or holistically, rather than the prosecution and jailing of the malfeasors, notwithstanding the harassment of same by environmental groups. At the same time, there are those who use the commons responsibly, ergo the tragedy of the commons is based on greed and ignorance and in this instance by business owners seeking to maximize their haul with little to no regard for the collateral damage caused to a resource that is not theirs to destroy.

Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 10:19 PM
Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.

"Carceral" is the buzzword of the week, it actually didn't exist up until now and suddenly it's in every other thread.

Chris
02-02-2015, 10:20 PM
Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.

Oh, come on they're just big words and don't indicate intelligence in using them. You have nothing at all to worry about.

Chris
02-02-2015, 10:22 PM
"Carceral" is the buzzword of the week, it actually didn't exist up until now and suddenly it's in every other thread.

Alyosha just gave some historical use of the word by Jacobins. It's just a word.

Captain Obvious
02-02-2015, 10:23 PM
Alyosha just gave some historical use of the word by Jacobins. It's just a word.

So's the "N" word and the movie theater riots every time it's said.

Chris
02-02-2015, 10:26 PM
Carceral comes from the latin word - to jail, as in incarcerate. Perhaps if you are using it symbolically, but I still don't believe that is true. If fishing must be ethical, in order to to preserve the fish beyond our own generation, and that also means preserving the entire ecosystem of the fish, then the cost will likely go up. Let's face it you also pay more for a filet of beef than for a piece of chuck. I don't see anyone protesting the fact that beef filet costs more. There are farmed fish for those who don't want to pay the freight. We cannot continue to vacuum up the fish we want, with the creatures that we do not want, without destroying the ocean ecosystem. It is rather like the old practice of clear cutting in forestry. If we do not put the penalties or restrictions at the point of import, there is no other effective way of preventing oceanic abuse, at least until the majority of the buying public has the same ethical considerations, which is probably rather idealistic at this point.

Carceral just means punative. You make it sound as if I'm against preserving the ecosystem when in fact I simply offer an alternative approach to achieving what you want.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 10:28 PM
Yes, a noticeable silence. I detect a distinct lack of care on the part of @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) for @Animal Mother (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1166). One might think that he's barking up the wrong tree, pun intended.

That is if he's still barking.

Be nice Witch.

Dark Mistress
02-02-2015, 10:39 PM
Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.

I feel this way often. Far too often.

I've concluded I am a dummy. Or at least lacking in English skills...

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 11:00 PM
Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.
Don't worry about it Chloe. They are just words. Add them to your vocabulary. They don't denote intelligence. English is a marvelous language, since it has more specific descriptive words than most other languages. That is primarily because English borrows from so many languages. It is both at times the most efficient and most complicated language in the world.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 11:03 PM
You women need to ignore misplaced criticism.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 11:07 PM
Ok so I read this, and chris' responses too, and I seriously think that I deserve to lose IQ points or something. I even had to look up the words carceral and malfeasors and then reread the paragraph for like the third time so that I could understand it. Anytime that you personally feel that you are a pretty smart person and that you can hold your own all it takes is one paragraph from someone clearly smarter than you to completely blow up your thought.
Mister D and I was trying to gently put this to Chris that "big words" are well and good when you're speaking with those who have those same words in their repertoire and they are specific to that breed of communication, other than that it just turns people off.

The "owner" of carceral is a feminist blogger, so don't worry if you don't use it or understand it. It's use is very limited and actually inappropriate in this conversation because it doesn't mean "punitive" as Chris states. It is a new word, derived from the Latin incarceratus. Without the "in" before "carcerate" it is absolutely meaningless and a poor creation from someone who no doubt hadn't had a day of Latin in her life. Its use to describe people you don't mean to incarcerate is insubstantive.

In other words this feminist bitch wanted to sound smart and made up a word without any real concept of Latin. Dumbass...

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 11:08 PM
I feel this way often. Far too often.

I've concluded I am a dummy. Or at least lacking in English skills...

No, she was lacking in Latin skills. Fortunately, I'm not and can call out a bitch.

Dark Mistress
02-02-2015, 11:11 PM
No, she was lacking in Latin skills. Fortunately, I'm not and can call out a $#@!.

No, this isn't the first or the last time. My vocabulary is rubbish.

I can do math though! I just can't speak. I have to look up many words that you all use or ask Cthulhu. He's got a good vocabulary :smiley:

Dark Mistress
02-02-2015, 11:12 PM
You women need to ignore misplaced criticism.

I place my criticism very well- at myself.

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 11:13 PM
Carceral just means punative. You make it sound as if I'm against preserving the ecosystem when in fact I simply offer an alternative approach to achieving what you want.
I think Aly responded to the meaning of the word carceral, so I will not elaborate.

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 11:14 PM
No, this isn't the first or the last time. My vocabulary is rubbish.

I can do math though! I just can't speak. I have to look up many words that you all use or ask Cthulhu. He's got a good vocabulary :smiley:
Everyone has their strengths. My math is rubbish.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 11:15 PM
No, this isn't the first or the last time. My vocabulary is rubbish.

I can do math though! I just can't speak. I have to look up many words that you all use or ask Cthulhu. He's got a good vocabulary :smiley:

New words are added to philosophical lexicons all the time. Incarceratus and incarcerare should have just been taken "as is" and the formulation of the use, as that was her intended dig--the incarceration of low income women. Her entire thesis was on the prison industrial complex, not just punitive measures, hence "incarceration". Carcerate or carceration just sounds slicker than taking a word already in use.

This would be fine if she used the Latin appropriately but she did not.

Peter1469
02-02-2015, 11:16 PM
I place my criticism very well- at myself.

My uniformed opinion is that you are in err.

Dark Mistress
02-02-2015, 11:48 PM
Everyone has their strengths. My math is rubbish.

In my experience, those who typically excel in math and science do not excel in language arts. And vice versa. Then, there are those who are just good at everything.

Dark Mistress
02-02-2015, 11:50 PM
My uniformed opinion is that you are in err.

I do on many counts.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 11:51 PM
In my experience, those who typically excel in math and science do not excel in language arts. And vice versa. Then, there are those who are just good at everything.

I think that's true of men but not of women. Studies have proven our brains more adaptive, probably because as mothers you need both skills.

I speak 8 languages with fluency, and read 6 more dead ones. While I hate math because it is boring, I always did well with it. You must be good at math and analogy to do well in learning a new language.

Dr. Who
02-02-2015, 11:52 PM
In my experience, those who typically excel in math and science do not excel in language arts. And vice versa. Then, there are those who are just good at everything.
There are few who are really good at everything. We are generally right or left brained. I am artistic (I paint and draw) and good with language. For some reason also good with IT.

Alyosha
02-02-2015, 11:56 PM
There are few who are really good at everything. We are generally right or left brained. I am artistic (I paint and draw) and good with language. For some reason also good with IT.

I think we purposefully block subjects we don't like and say we're not good at them. I hate technology other than for typing and surfing purposes which irritates Ethereal to no end because he knows how "smart" I am.

I just hate computers. They're dull, lifeless things.

Dark Mistress
02-03-2015, 12:00 AM
I think we purposefully block subjects we don't like and say we're not good at them. I hate technology other than for typing and surfing purposes which irritates Ethereal to no end because he knows how "smart" I am.

I just hate computers. They're dull, lifeless things.

Yes, I believe you are right. Smarty pants. :wink:

Cthulhu is beginning to self teach math. Starting from the last math (level) he understood. Without the firm grasp on math he won't excel in Chemistry. I can't teach him. I don't have time and he and I, well, we butt heads in academics.

Dr. Who
02-03-2015, 12:10 AM
I think we purposefully block subjects we don't like and say we're not good at them. I hate technology other than for typing and surfing purposes which irritates Ethereal to no end because he knows how "smart" I am.

I just hate computers. They're dull, lifeless things.
Oddly I love computers. They are just another creative tool for me.

Peter1469
02-03-2015, 06:30 AM
I think we purposefully block subjects we don't like and say we're not good at them. I hate technology other than for typing and surfing purposes which irritates Ethereal to no end because he knows how "smart" I am.

I just hate computers. They're dull, lifeless things.

But isn't it fun to irritate him "to no end?"

Peter1469
02-03-2015, 06:32 AM
Yes, I believe you are right. Smarty pants. :wink:

Cthulhu is beginning to self teach math. Starting from the last math (level) he understood. Without the firm grasp on math he won't excel in Chemistry. I can't teach him. I don't have time and he and I, well, we butt heads in academics.

It is never a good idea to have one spouse teach the other- anything. It never ends well.

Chris
02-03-2015, 06:49 AM
Mister D and I was trying to gently put this to Chris that "big words" are well and good when you're speaking with those who have those same words in their repertoire and they are specific to that breed of communication, other than that it just turns people off.

The "owner" of carceral is a feminist blogger, so don't worry if you don't use it or understand it. It's use is very limited and actually inappropriate in this conversation because it doesn't mean "punitive" as Chris states. It is a new word, derived from the Latin incarceratus. Without the "in" before "carcerate" it is absolutely meaningless and a poor creation from someone who no doubt hadn't had a day of Latin in her life. Its use to describe people you don't mean to incarcerate is insubstantive.

In other words this feminist bitch wanted to sound smart and made up a word without any real concept of Latin. Dumbass...



That's silly. As that "bitch" pointed out in her article it's becoming a common expression that no one owns. As even you pointed out Jacobin feminists used the term.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carceral


car·cer·al adjective \ˈkär-sə-rəl\

Definition of CARCERAL

: of, relating to, or suggesting a jail or prison
Take a 2 minute break! Play our
fun, fast vocab game. »
Origin of CARCERAL

Late Latin, from Latin carcer prison
First Known Use: circa 1587

1587 is hardly new. And it does mean punitive.

And as I already pointed out to chloe use of it has nothing to do with intelligence.

Chris
02-03-2015, 06:50 AM
Don't worry about it Chloe. They are just words. Add them to your vocabulary. They don't denote intelligence. English is a marvelous language, since it has more specific descriptive words than most other languages. That is primarily because English borrows from so many languages. It is both at times the most efficient and most complicated language in the world.


Exactly.

Chris
02-03-2015, 06:52 AM
So much for dolphins and whales!

Captain Obvious
02-03-2015, 07:16 AM
So much for dolphins and whales!

Beat me too it.

Chris
02-03-2015, 07:32 AM
So let me then pitch a non-carceral, free market approach. :)

A Market Proposal for Saving Whales (http://www.wired.com/2012/01/whale-market/)


Despite the best efforts of activists, more whales are killed now than two decades ago. To people who think killing the majestic creatures is wrong, it’s a tragic state of affairs — but perhaps markets could sort it out.

That’s the premise of a controversial proposal floated Jan. 11 in the high-profile journal Nature. Hunters could buy the right to kill whales. Conservationists could pay to save them.

“At worst, you end up with a sustainably caught number of whales that is well-studied. At best, you’d have whales taken off the market,” said environmental economist Christopher Costello of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

...The proposed market would be patterned after a system known best known from fisheries management as catch shares: Sustainable harvest levels are quantified, a maximum quota established, and catch allotments put up for sale by the International Whaling Commission. Costello’s proposal would add the crucial wrinkle of allowing activists to buy shares, too. If they did, a corresponding number of whales would be removed from the quota. (Indigenous groups would receive a set number of shares to be owned in perpetuity, apart from the market — though those could conceivably be sold, too.)

...According to Costello’s estimates, global whaling profits amount to $31 million, and likely less when government subsidies are removed. Mainstream anti-whaling groups — Greenpeace, Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, and the World Wildlife Fund — spend about $25 million to fight the hunts.

“This money could be used to purchase whales, arguably with the same or better effect,” write the researchers in Nature.

...

Another source: Saving Whales by Putting a Price on Their Tail? Scientists suggest that tradable harvest quotas may reduce the slaughter of whales (http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/saving-whales-by-putting-a-price-on-their-head-39022)

Dark Mistress
02-03-2015, 11:23 AM
It is never a good idea to have one spouse teach the other- anything. It never ends well.
Hey, hey I have successfully taught cthulhu how to put the toilet seat down and put his dirty socks in the hamper!

Dark Mistress
02-03-2015, 11:26 AM
So much for dolphins and whales!
I admit I lack knowledge on this subject. Having never grown up near the ocean or spent much time by it I find myself mostly uninformed. I have read this thread and learned a few things. I do apologize for going off topic. Again.

Codename Section
02-03-2015, 11:27 AM
The Topic of This Thread is Not: Relationships, People, Definitions of Words, Our Talents, Our Friends, Who Should Date Who, It's About A Ban on Foreign Fish. If you want a thread for chit cat, dating advice, marital issues, who's hot, who's not, what words people should use, etcetera, there is the Pub for that.

Chris
02-03-2015, 11:34 AM
I admit I lack knowledge on this subject. Having never grown up near the ocean or spent much time by it I find myself mostly uninformed. I have read this thread and learned a few things. I do apologize for going off topic. Again.

Sorry, was just joking about far we went astray the topic. I don't know much about it either--why I asked chloe if she'd heard alternative solutions. I prefer free choice over coerced restriction, reputation over regulation, in any solution.

The Sage of Main Street
02-03-2015, 12:42 PM
Oh @TrixWitch (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1394) I'm sorry but this may be a little out of my range since this really isn't a common topic (nets and such) in my major. Fisheries majors would definitely know about this though, especially regarding specific nets and details like that, but I'll try anyway.

I know that trawling the ocean floor is the main type of commercial fishing that causes the most environmental issues since it basically scrapes the sea floor and catches many species that are not the intended target of fisherman. It's damaging effects on deep sea coral and other ocean floor communities of species is well documented and often the primary victim in order to put things like shrimp on your dinner plate. Bottom trawling is illegal in a several countries but once out of those waters it's still a free for all basically with no real authority in the water to enforce or educate.

As for the impact I would imagine that without a legitimate way to punish people for destroying the oceans and it's life it shouldn't affect those fisherman that put profit over the health of an ecosystem very much unfortunately. I would hope that it would make life extremely difficult for those that contribute to the decline of our oceans but it's hard to be optimistic at the moment.

The OP is talking about nets that catch bycatch like turtles , dolphins, and so on so that would be more of your mid water trawling. It's irresponsible fishing in my opinion as are most commercial practices.

I should clarify for you though so there is no confusion that I am not an advocate for the fishing industry nor do I care about their possible inability to turn a profit due to increasing regulation and enforcement. The most self-righteous New Age solution would be to give each sea species a seat at the United Nations. As it is now, it's a petting zoo for decadent multiculties, so nobody will notice this warm and fuzzy expansion of its membership.

Codename Section
02-03-2015, 12:45 PM
The most self-righteous New Age solution would be to give each sea species a seat at the United Nations. As it is now, it's a petting zoo for decadent multiculties, so nobody will notice this warm and fuzzy expansion of its membership.

A warning was already posted in this thread. This is not on topic and not in good faith. Sage is banned from the thread.

Chloe
02-03-2015, 12:47 PM
The most self-righteous New Age solution would be to give each sea species a seat at the United Nations. As it is now, it's a petting zoo for decadent multiculties, so nobody will notice this warm and fuzzy expansion of its membership.

Yeah ok whatever. Go sell your crazy somewhere else.

Peter1469
02-03-2015, 02:58 PM
Hey, hey I have successfully taught cthulhu how to put the toilet seat down and put his dirty socks in the hamper!

Sorry, I mean things that require longer term lessons. Like teaching the other to drive a manual transmission. Or calculus.

donttread
02-09-2015, 06:54 PM
This was already to some degree in voluntary practice, no?

We've got this backwards. I'm watching Nat Geo Wild right now and they just said that plankton release so much oxygen that we could not survive without them. Clearly it's time to join the Japanese and start killing more plankton eating whales.