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Juggernaut
08-31-2011, 08:00 PM
Good read on societies disconnect with religion, violence and today's gimee gimee youth. We have an ethical vacuum that's been mostly ignored by the media.

http://americanexperiment.org/publications/commentaries/riots-show-that-the-west-needs-religion

The spectacle of crowds of young people rampaging through the streets of London is the latest sign that something is deeply amiss in Britain, and in the West in general.

In early August, hordes of youthful looters torched cars, assaulted passers-by, and smashed shop windows—carrying off flat-screen TV's, brand-name clothes, cameras and jewelry.

These youthful marauders—who coordinated their looting and assaults by cell phone—seized the world's attention. The usual explanations of racism and poverty seemed to fall flat in accounting for their amoral free-for-all.

One texter summoned friends to London for "Pure terror and havoc & Free stuff. Just smash shop windows and cart out da stuff u want!"

In recent weeks, two eminent thinkers have offered illuminating reflections about the source of such disorder. They are Jonathon Sacks, Britain's chief rabbi, and Pope Benedict, head of the worldwide Catholic Church.

The two men represent different religious traditions. But their diagnosis of the ills in question is strikingly similar.

The anarchy in the streets of Britain's largest cities has been brewing for half a century, Sacks wrote in the Wall Street Journal. He traced it to what he calls "one of the most radical transformations in the history of the West"—the moral revolution of the 1960s, when the West abandoned "its entire traditional ethic of self-restraint."

The West tossed the Judeo-Christian moral code out the window, says Sacks, and replaced it with materialism and radical individualism. The new watchword is "Whatever works for you."

Britain's social fabric is unraveling in the resulting ethical vacuum.


Benedict also sees a return to religion as vital for the West. The first step is to recognize that religious conviction is "a natural element within society," he says. Religion should not be banished to the private sphere. Instead, it should have a vibrant presence in the public square.

Judeo-Christianity does not aspire to a direct role in politics, he explains. Its role is to form the men and women who build a democratic culture: "It is by forming consciences that the Church makes her most specific and valuable contribution to society."

Most Americans don't share Europe's contempt for religion.

This "nation with the soul of a church," in British writer G.K. Chesterton's words, still draws on deep wells of religious faith. But our opinion elites are generally skeptical—and many even hostile—to the idea that human beings need to search for truth and to let it shape their lives if they are to flourish.

If America holds to Chesterton's view, we can be the light that sparks a new religious awakening. If not, we may join Europe's slow slide into the abyss.

Mister D
08-31-2011, 08:24 PM
I agree that there exists an ethical vacuum. Good article. I would only add that materialism became prominent in western culture before the 1960s. I do think, however, that a consumer mentality has grown since then.

wingrider
09-01-2011, 12:53 AM
the moral decay in America has gotten out of hand.

Juggernaut
09-08-2011, 03:27 AM
My grand parents said television began the biggest moral decay as people began to mimmick tv personalities and movie characters instead of following family morals and ethics. I tend to agree though I believe that long before the end agricultural revolution people began to fixate external influences and materialism. Big city ideals versus traditional urban and rural ethics. Beltway ideals in middle American states are more reminiscent of traditional American ideals from previous eras as are small cities in other areas. Godlessness is a factor no matter the geography or country.

Pendragon
09-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Yet crime in America is at its lowest level in decades which also coincides with the drop in religion you have all referenced.

So perhaps our society is in fact doing much better without religion than it was when Sundays were sacred.

Food for thought. Think about it my God-fearing comrades.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 01:37 PM
Yet crime in America is at its lowest level in decades which also coincides with the drop in religion you have all referenced.

So perhaps our society is in fact doing much better without religion than it was when Sundays were sacred.

Food for thought. Think about it my God-fearing comrades.


America is a very religious country, Pen. Been in the states long? :D

Pendragon
09-08-2011, 01:39 PM
You will learn as you grow older that merely wishing something to be the case does not make it so.

Such are the lessons we adults come to know.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 01:40 PM
You will learn as you grow older that merely wishing something to be the case does not make it so.

Such are the lessons we adults come to know.


Then make your case...

Conley
09-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Yet crime in America is at its lowest level in decades which also coincides with the drop in religion you have all referenced.

So perhaps our society is in fact doing much better without religion than it was when Sundays were sacred.

Food for thought. Think about it my God-fearing comrades.


Correlation does not imply causation Pen.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 01:42 PM
Yet crime in America is at its lowest level in decades which also coincides with the drop in religion you have all referenced.

So perhaps our society is in fact doing much better without religion than it was when Sundays were sacred.

Food for thought. Think about it my God-fearing comrades.


Correlation does not imply causation Pen.


That's true but there isn't even a correlation.

Conley
09-08-2011, 01:48 PM
Do you think the United States is as religious or moreso than it used to be?

I feel like the trend has been away from religion but that is based on my own life experiences in circles of middle-class whites, Catholics, Jews and Episcopalians/Anglicans, etc. The fundamentalist movements sure seem to be gathering steam.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 01:57 PM
Do you think the United States is as religious or moreso than it used to be?

I feel like the trend has been away from religion but that is based on my own life experiences in circles of middle-class whites, Catholics, Jews and Episcopalians/Anglicans, etc. The fundamentalist movements sure seem to be gathering steam.


The US is still a very religious nation regardless of any ups or downs in church affilation.There is only one irreligious region (as defined by church going- in another sense religion is an inescapable part of human life) in the world and that region is seeing it's population as well as its influence shrink drastically.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 01:57 PM
You are correct about fundamentalism.

wingrider
09-08-2011, 05:20 PM
maybe because us fundies are seeing prophecy being fullfilled in our lifetimes and are excited about it. IDK I just think it is very interesting to see.

Pendragon
09-08-2011, 05:29 PM
maybe because us fundies are seeing prophecy being fullfilled in our lifetimes and are excited about it. IDK I just think it is very interesting to see.


To what do you refer?

Please be specific.

wingrider
09-08-2011, 05:36 PM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.

Mister D
09-08-2011, 06:28 PM
maybe because us fundies are seeing prophecy being fullfilled in our lifetimes and are excited about it. IDK I just think it is very interesting to see.


Mind you, I have nothing against fundies. I don't take all of the bible literally but live and let live.

wingrider
09-08-2011, 11:08 PM
maybe because us fundies are seeing prophecy being fullfilled in our lifetimes and are excited about it. IDK I just think it is very interesting to see.


Mind you, I have nothing against fundies. I don't take all of the bible literally but live and let live.


hey man we are cool.. each and everyone of us has are own belief structure. and I personally am cool with that.. after all who am I to know the infinite mind of God. when i try to figure out why God allows certain things to happen I have to remind myself that I as a human do not have the capacity to understand how God works and and how He fits all the pieces together in this puzzle.

Juggernaut
09-09-2011, 05:37 AM
Yet crime in America is at its lowest level in decades which also coincides with the drop in religion you have all referenced.

So perhaps our society is in fact doing much better without religion than it was when Sundays were sacred.

Food for thought. Think about it my God-fearing comrades.


Is crime really lower? I've seen cities re-index crime stats to fluff the numbers. Some cities are lower no doubt but Chicago, DC, LA, Cleveland, Akron, Miami and NYC re-index but the prisons are full so its debatable.

Atheist crime stats I've seen are flawed just like many other propaganda they create.

Mister D
09-09-2011, 10:19 AM
maybe because us fundies are seeing prophecy being fullfilled in our lifetimes and are excited about it. IDK I just think it is very interesting to see.


Mind you, I have nothing against fundies. I don't take all of the bible literally but live and let live.


hey man we are cool.. each and everyone of us has are own belief structure. and I personally am cool with that.. after all who am I to know the infinite mind of God. when i try to figure out why God allows certain things to happen I have to remind myself that I as a human do not have the capacity to understand how God works and and how He fits all the pieces together in this puzzle.


Understood. :)

My mother is a fundamentalist minister, actually.

Pendragon
09-09-2011, 04:15 PM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?

wingrider
09-09-2011, 04:48 PM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?


No you don't want to know about my beliefs.. what you want is to find some way to attack what I believe,, and I ain't going there with ya..

Pendragon
09-09-2011, 05:06 PM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?


No you don't want to know about my beliefs.. what you want is to find some way to attack what I believe,, and I ain't going there with ya..


That is peculiarly defensive given the harmlessness of my question. It is a large leap of hubris to assume I am attacking your religion and unfortunate in addition. I hope for your own sake that you are able to someday overcome the lack of self-esteem you have regarding your beliefs and become comfortable discussing them in a civil manner with others. I meant no harm nor offense.

wingrider
09-09-2011, 05:10 PM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?


No you don't want to know about my beliefs.. what you want is to find some way to attack what I believe,, and I ain't going there with ya..


That is peculiarly defensive given the harmlessness of my question. It is a large leap of hubris to assume I am attacking your religion and unfortunate in addition. I hope for your own sake that you are able to someday overcome the lack of self-esteem you have regarding your beliefs and become comfortable discussing them in a civil manner with others. I meant no harm nor offense.


sure you don't..... and I am just supposed to take your word for it?? I have no problems with my " self esteem" it is doing just fine thank you..

Pendragon
09-09-2011, 05:15 PM
Be at peace my good man.

Conley
09-09-2011, 07:44 PM
Be at peace my good man.


and peace be with you ;)

Mister D
09-10-2011, 09:35 AM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?


No you don't want to know about my beliefs.. what you want is to find some way to attack what I believe,, and I ain't going there with ya..


Exactly. Too bad he's not very good at it.

Mister D
09-10-2011, 09:38 AM
sure .. how about just one to make it easy,,

the formation of isreal as a nation in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion.


I would like to know more abou your beliefs.

In your teachings it says the Hebrews will have their own land and now that Israel has been formed you take it as confirmation for all of the other teachings of your religion?


No you don't want to know about my beliefs.. what you want is to find some way to attack what I believe,, and I ain't going there with ya..


That is peculiarly defensive given the harmlessness of my question. It is a large leap of hubris to assume I am attacking your religion and unfortunate in addition. I hope for your own sake that you are able to someday overcome the lack of self-esteem you have regarding your beliefs and become comfortable discussing them in a civil manner with others. I meant no harm nor offense.


You have yet to demonstrate civility when it comes to discussing the beliefs of other people.

Pendragon
09-10-2011, 10:32 AM
How have I been uncivil? I have been nothing but civil towards both of you, even in light of constant attacks from Mister D. LoVE has been more respectful and I am unaware of any harmful attacks I have made toward him. Perhaps there has been some sort of miscommunication.

Mister D
09-10-2011, 11:43 AM
How have I been uncivil? I have been nothing but civil towards both of you, even in light of constant attacks from Mister D. LoVE has been more respectful and I am unaware of any harmful attacks I have made toward him. Perhaps there has been some sort of miscommunication.


For example, you ran away when asked to make your case regarding your claims about Christianity yesterday. It's abundantly clear that you simply do not know what you're talking about yet you insist on speaking. That's incivility, Pen. It's obnoxious. Secondly, your attacks (i.e. your ignorance) aren't harmful to anyone but you.

Mister D
09-10-2011, 11:54 AM
I'd like to know more about your beliefs, Pen. What exactly do you believe in? Surely you're not a nihilist.

Pendragon
09-10-2011, 12:15 PM
How have I been uncivil? I have been nothing but civil towards both of you, even in light of constant attacks from Mister D. LoVE has been more respectful and I am unaware of any harmful attacks I have made toward him. Perhaps there has been some sort of miscommunication.


For example, you ran away when asked to make your case regarding your claims about Christianity yesterday. It's abundantly clear that you simply do not know what you're talking about yet you insist on speaking. That's incivility, Pen. It's obnoxious. Secondly, your attacks (i.e. your ignorance) aren't harmful to anyone but you.


Patently false. Every word of it. I explained to you about Buddhism. Speaking my mind is not incivility, nor is it obnoxious. Would you have me leave? Is this a forum for debate or one where all the conservatives pleasure each other? Please illuminate me at your earliest convenience. I have attacked no man.

Conley
09-10-2011, 12:48 PM
Pen I think it is the acting superior thing...if you tone it down a little you might people more receptive

Mister D
09-10-2011, 03:01 PM
How have I been uncivil? I have been nothing but civil towards both of you, even in light of constant attacks from Mister D. LoVE has been more respectful and I am unaware of any harmful attacks I have made toward him. Perhaps there has been some sort of miscommunication.


For example, you ran away when asked to make your case regarding your claims about Christianity yesterday. It's abundantly clear that you simply do not know what you're talking about yet you insist on speaking. That's incivility, Pen. It's obnoxious. Secondly, your attacks (i.e. your ignorance) aren't harmful to anyone but you.


Patently false. Every word of it. I explained to you about Buddhism. Speaking my mind is not incivility, nor is it obnoxious. Would you have me leave? Is this a forum for debate or one where all the conservatives pleasure each other? Please illuminate me at your earliest convenience. I have attacked no man.


You made a claim about Buddhism as well as a claim about Christianity. I asked to make your case in light of my objections. You still won't. As far as leaving is concerned, spare us the sanctimony. Do as you please. When you make unsubstantiated claims about a religion (two in this case) I will call you on it.