PDA

View Full Version : Do Games Stereotype Men?



IMPress Polly
07-12-2015, 07:12 AM
There has been much (yes merited) discussion of sex discrimination against women in the world of video games over the last few years and, as I've highlighted recently, that ongoing discussion (and yes struggle) appears to be finally getting some meaningful results, at least if what we saw at this year's E3 is any indication (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/46621-E3-2015-The-Best-One-Ever!). But here's something the gaming community hasn't discussed as much yet: the way that video games tend to portray men. I think it's a well-merited discussion! The subject was brought to mind when I was watching some back episodes of PBS Game/Show recently and ran across this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrActT_7X6U

(Don't worry: Game/Show episodes are pretty short.)

I think he raises a lot of good points! Now I also think that stereotypes such as these are certainly not the same thing as being placed at a cultural disadvantage (i.e. being portrayed worse than women) given that they tend to be kind of flattering, i.e. showing men as consistently strong and capable and usually the requisite center of attention and so forth, much in contrast to the ways in which games tend to represent women, and also given the real-world expressions that these prejudices find in gaming communities themselves. If you doubt this, here's a list of the implicit special privileges that one does enjoy simply by gaming while male...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47-FMmMLy0

...However, the important point that the above episode of Game/Show (the first video above) makes is that these are still stereotypes nonetheless and that the very phenomenon of one-dimensional portrayals of whole groups of people can not only be very hurtful in ways that have adverse real-world consequences, but also limit character development by restricting the range of human experiences considered valid for one or another sex, and also thus limit what kinds of stories games can tell. Gender stereotypes, including those directed at men, in other words, can not only wound emotionally, but also inhibit the further development of video games as an artistic medium. We need to realize that all of us are multidimensional creatures; that we all have both strength and vulnerability in us, not just one or the other of those things, and that the full representation of that multidimensionality is highly desirable. For all of us. And for video games as an artistic medium. Screw gender roles. Seriously.

What do you think? Have I raised anything valid here?

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 07:52 AM
I think the stereotyping of men is a valid point and not just in video games. Stereotyping encourages conformity to meet cultural expectations. People are encouraged to disregard individual reality in favor of the image.

Males are fed a menu of games and movies that seem to have the same script. Nice guy pushed by events beyond his control, forced to use violence in spite of his better nature. 15 movie minutes of fights, car chases, violence and the good guy prevails. Good guy gets the beautiful woman and rides off into the sunset. Rinse & repeat. Moral of the story: violence always wins.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 08:35 AM
If we stereotype men as strong, independent and reliable I have no problem with it.

(I know that leaves many out :shocked:)

Mister D
07-12-2015, 08:44 AM
All cultures have ideal male and female types. That those conceptions are found throughout that culture (in its art, literature etc.) should not surprise anyone. It's not a conspiracy, ladies. More to the point, they are not stereotypes. Archetype is a more appropriate term.

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 08:51 AM
When did acknowledging that something really exists become a conspiracy?

Mister D
07-12-2015, 08:56 AM
When did acknowledging that something really exists become a conspiracy?

Your problem is that you confuse archetypes with stereotypes. No worries. I'm here to help.

sachem
07-12-2015, 09:09 AM
Your problem is that you confuse archetypes with stereotypes. No worries. I'm here to help.I see you are feeling your oats this morning.

Safety
07-12-2015, 09:30 AM
I see you are feeling your oats this morning.

Mister D on a box of Wheaties?

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:02 AM
Mister D on a box of Wheaties?

The SPLC has recently identified Wheaties as a hate group so it makes sense.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:02 AM
I see you are feeling your oats this morning.

My nuggets of knowledge are as nutritious as wholesome oats. Yes, yes they are.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:04 AM
There has been much (yes merited) discussion of sex discrimination against women in the world of video games over the last few years and, as I've highlighted recently, that ongoing discussion (and yes struggle) appears to be finally getting some meaningful results, at least if what we saw at this year's E3 is any indication (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/46621-E3-2015-The-Best-One-Ever!). But here's something the gaming community hasn't discussed as much yet: the way that video games tend to portray men. I think it's a well-merited discussion! The subject was brought to mind when I was watching some back episodes of PBS Game/Show recently and ran across this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrActT_7X6U

(Don't worry: Game/Show episodes are pretty short.)

I think he raises a lot of good points! Now I also think that stereotypes such as these are certainly not the same thing as being placed at a cultural disadvantage (i.e. being portrayed worse than women) given that they tend to be kind of flattering, i.e. showing men as consistently strong and capable and usually the requisite center of attention and so forth, much in contrast to the ways in which games tend to represent women, and also given the real-world expressions that these prejudices find in gaming communities themselves. If you doubt this, here's a list of the implicit special privileges that one does enjoy simply by gaming while male...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47-FMmMLy0

...However, the important point that the above episode of Game/Show (the first video above) makes is that these are still stereotypes nonetheless and that the very phenomenon of one-dimensional portrayals of whole groups of people can not only be very hurtful in ways that have adverse real-world consequences, but also limit character development by restricting the range of human experiences considered valid for one or another sex, and also thus limit what kinds of stories games can tell. Gender stereotypes, including those directed at men, in other words, can not only wound emotionally, but also inhibit the further development of video games as an artistic medium. We need to realize that all of us are multidimensional creatures; that we all have both strength and vulnerability in us, not just one or the other of those things, and that the full representation of that multidimensionality is highly desirable. For all of us. And for video games as an artistic medium. Screw gender roles. Seriously.

What do you think? Have I raised anything valid here?

I think it's whiteys fault.

sachem
07-12-2015, 10:06 AM
Mister D on a box of Wheaties?Of course.

IMPress Polly
07-12-2015, 10:38 AM
PolWatch wrote:
I think the stereotyping of men is a valid point and not just in video games. Stereotyping encourages conformity to meet cultural expectations. People are encouraged to disregard individual reality in favor of the image.

Males are fed a menu of games and movies that seem to have the same script. Nice guy pushed by events beyond his control, forced to use violence in spite of his better nature. 15 movie minutes of fights, car chases, violence and the good guy prevails. Good guy gets the beautiful woman and rides off into the sunset. Rinse & repeat. Moral of the story: violence always wins.

I don't know if you've been to the movies lately, but 15 minutes seems like an understatement of the rule: many of the prominent films I've seen this year, like Jurassic World and The Avengers: Age of Ultron, are literally at least 70% stylized action scenes. However, to your actual point, I definitely agree: this is by no means entirely confined to video games. However, I do feel, as the rule, male stereotypes tend to be more exaggerated in video games than in other artistic mediums. Movies, for example, don't often exaggerate the male body to the same degree as what we find in video games.


Peter wrote:
If we stereotype men as strong, independent and reliable I have no problem with it.

(I know that leaves many out :shocked:)

Well that's one take! Here's a real downside to it though: the fact that games like Papo & Yo are as marginal as they are despite the issues they take on. Papo & Yo is a game that sensitively deals with the subject of child abuse by having you navigate life as the victim, who happens to be a young boy. That's a real social issue and I dislike it when games that deal with serious subjects like these in a serious way get marginalized, especially in as far as it might be because say the male protagonist doesn't rigidly adhere to the stoic warrior archetype when confronted with genuinely nightmarish situations. That's just an example that immediately came to my mind. Another example would be Persona 4, which is a game that explores human multidimensionality and the fake personas people are expected to put on to be deemed socially acceptable and others they have to put on to try and fulfill their dreams and the conflict between those things, and that happens to be my favorite game of all time. I don't think the current gaming climate rewards titles like these as much as it should precisely because they do not conform to common prejudice concerning the way that boys and girls, men and women, are 'supposed' to be.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 10:40 AM
Well that's one take! Here's a real downside to it though: the fact that games like Papo & Yo are as marginal as they are despite the issues they take on. Papo & Yo is a game that sensitively deals with the subject of child abuse by having you navigate life as the victim, who happens to be a young boy. That's a real social issue and I dislike it when games that deal with serious subjects like these in a serious way get marginalized, especially in as far as it might be because say the male protagonist doesn't rigidly adhere to the stoic warrior archetype when confronted with genuinely nightmarish situations. That's just an example that immediately came to my mind. Another example would be Persona 4, which is a game that explores human multidimensionality and the fake personas people are expected to put on to be deemed socially acceptable and others they have to put on to try and fulfill their dreams and the conflict between those things, and that happens to be my favorite game of all time. I don't think the current gaming climate rewards titles like these as much as it should precisely because they do not conform to common prejudice concerning the way that boys and girls, men and women, are 'supposed' to be.

Yes. I am still pissed that the Mech Warriors series didn't continue in the PC format since XP. :smiley:

IMPress Polly
07-13-2015, 06:32 PM
Hey The Xl, I remember you mentioning this type of subject before and wondered what your thoughts might be on the OP subject/question?

GrassrootsConservative
07-13-2015, 06:36 PM
Stereotypes exist for a reason.

That's the only thought on this subject I really feel is worth mentioning.

Mister D
07-13-2015, 07:12 PM
Stereotypes exist for a reason.

That's the only thought on this subject I really feel is worth mentioning.

But these aren't stereotypes.

The Xl
07-14-2015, 12:31 PM
I think it's fair to acknowledge that men are consistently portrayed as sociopaths, murderers, disposable, etc, in games. They are, and that's what sells. It's also fair to note that many main characters in games do present a physique that is basically impossible to attain.

Realistically, both men and women are stereotyped in games based solely on what game developers think will sell the most. Do I have an issue with it? Not really, if something in particular bothers me about a certain game or genre, I won't support it monetarily. With the rage about female stereotypes in games, I suppose it is fair and inevitable that someone would bring up male ones.

Crepitus
07-14-2015, 12:41 PM
I think the stereotyping of men is a valid point and not just in video games. Stereotyping encourages conformity to meet cultural expectations. People are encouraged to disregard individual reality in favor of the image.

Males are fed a menu of games and movies that seem to have the same script. Nice guy pushed by events beyond his control, forced to use violence in spite of his better nature. 15 movie minutes of fights, car chases, violence and the good guy prevails. Good guy gets the beautiful woman and rides off into the sunset. Rinse & repeat. Moral of the story: violence always wins.
Not exactly a new phenomenon. An exec at a PMC I worked for in the eighties had a plaque on his wall reading "If violence failed to be your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it".

Crepitus
07-14-2015, 12:45 PM
All cultures have ideal male and female types. That those conceptions are found throughout that culture (in its art, literature etc.) should not surprise anyone. It's not a conspiracy, ladies. More to the point, they are not stereotypes. Archetype is a more appropriate term.
While this is a point, I think you are missing the OP's. Literary definitions aside she is saying that all males are being stereotyped as the archetype.

Mister D
07-14-2015, 12:49 PM
While this is a point, I think you are missing the OP's. Literary definitions aside she is saying that all males are being stereotyped as the archetype.

Not sure I understand. You are supposed to identify with the archetype. The point seems to be that if one does not measure up (quite frankly, who does?) then it's a form of oppression.

Captain Obvious
07-14-2015, 12:53 PM
They're video games.

You're trying too hard.

IMPress Polly
07-15-2015, 12:01 PM
Crepitus wrote:
While this is a point, I think you are missing the OP's. Literary definitions aside she is saying that all males are being stereotyped as the archetype.


Mister D wrote:
Not sure I understand. You are supposed to identify with the archetype. The point seems to be that if one does not measure up (quite frankly, who does?) then it's a form of oppression.

If an archetype is an ideal and a stereotype is a cultural expectation so uniform as to deny individuality, then what we're seeing, I think, is indeed, as Crepitus suggests, the merging of the two things (ideals and expectations), as evidenced by the negative social consequences we're seeing unfold, such as growth in the percentage of men developing anorexia, bulimia, and muscle dysmorphia. The oppressiveness of that is self-evident as far as I'm concerned.

What the creator of the PBS Game/Show episode in the OP argues is that the ideal itself is outdated and he points to a number of reasons why he feels that way. I have to agree with him. I wonder how you, Mister D, might respond to THAT case.

Mister D
07-15-2015, 12:18 PM
If an archetype is an ideal and a stereotype is a cultural expectation so uniform as to deny individuality, then what we're seeing, I think, is indeed, as Crepitus suggests, the merging of the two things (ideals and expectations), as evidenced by the negative social consequences we're seeing unfold, such as growth in the percentage of men developing anorexia, bulimia, and muscle dysmorphia. The oppressiveness of that is self-evident as far as I'm concerned.

What the creator of the PBS Game/Show episode in the OP argues is that the ideal itself is outdated and he points to a number of reasons why he feels that way. I have to agree with him. I wonder how you, Mister D, might respond to THAT case.

The former is a literary or artistic convention that draws from cultural expectations and ideals. The latter is a method by which human beings process what will always be a largely unfamiliar world. We can't know everybody, for example. We generalize. It's a good thing too or we wouldn't be here. Anyway, what I'm saying is that the term stereotype does not belong here. You don't like the archetypes and the cultural ideals and expectations they are drawn from. OK with me.

My response is this: if they are truly outdated they will vanish on their own. My guess is they won't because they're not.

xtranne
07-16-2015, 12:12 AM
I never play video games.

xtranne
07-16-2015, 12:12 AM
I used to play some Nintendo games way back.

Cthulhu
08-11-2015, 02:58 AM
Yes. I am still pissed that the Mech Warriors series didn't continue in the PC format since XP. :smiley:
Armored Core simply annihilated it on PlayStation. Same concept, only AC moves faster and has way more colors and stuff.

Although I did like the ability to build an attack group in Mechwarrior. Few appreciate the strategy behind it in a first person shooter though.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Captain Obvious
08-11-2015, 06:42 AM
Yes but we don't get our tits in a wringer over it., we're comfortable with our identity.