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PolWatch
08-12-2015, 06:26 AM
At last! There is hope for the male damsel (also known as the Distressed Dude). Don't worry little fella, we'll protect you! :grin:

'Ever since Superman first burst onto the printed page in 1938, superheroes have become a staple of American storytelling — from comic books and TV shows to blockbuster movies and video games — conquering evil and injustice throughout. But when you hear the word “superhero,” you probably picture a strapping costumed man swooping in to save the day. However, a new generation of artists and writers are changing that image, responding to the ever-growing number of female fans who want to see their gender reflected in these heroic tales.

From Ms. Marvel (http://marvel.com/comics/series/18468/ms_marvel_2014_-_present)to Batgirl (http://www.dccomics.com/characters/batgirl), more and more female heroes are breaking through in a big way, redefining the gender roles that, for years, depicted women simply as “damsels in distress.” With a fan base that’s now 47 percent female, the notion of comic book superheroes being a boys club is now a thing of the past. Publishers like Marvel, (http://marvel.com/) DC (http://www.dccomics.com/)and Image (https://imagecomics.com/) have answered the demand for more female protagonists, and behind the pages, a new wave of female creators are giving these characters the presence they never had. From writers G. Willow Wilson (http://gwillowwilson.com/) and Kelly Sue DeConnick (http://kellysue.tumblr.com/) to artists like Babs Tarr (http://babsbabsbabs.com/), the comic book industry has never seemed so diverse.

As many eagerly wait for Hollywood to catch up to comicdom with upcoming films like “Captain Marvel” and “Wonder Woman,” and television shows like “Supergirl (http://www.cbs.com/shows/supergirl/),” these comic book creators are ringing in a new golden age for the female superhero, and the world of crime fighting will never be the same.'

https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/rise-of-the-female-superhero-ever-since-superman-126459307033.html

Peter1469
08-12-2015, 06:30 AM
I never got into comics.

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 06:43 AM
Does Mad Magazine count as a comic? I never liked comics but I liked the MM.....What, me worry?

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.m3xVZ6l8A2ahMG1VrjRzYg&pid=15.1&P=0

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 07:05 AM
When I was a kid I was partially into comics. Not the Batman, Superman, Spiderman stuff, that was boring and rhetorical to me, I was into The Hulk. Had pretty much every Hulk comic book that was ever issued, even special edition ones. They all got tossed at some point, I regret that now.

Swamp thing, Fantastic 4 were big on my list. And off-the-wall stuff, the really graphic stuff started coming out and I was buying the really bad horror comics, I forgot what they were called. The Horny Goof was one that I remember, tried finding remnants of that series on the interwebs but there's only bits and pieces out there. Haven't found many folks who remembered it.

I was also into Mad Magazine, had pretty much every edition of that too. And their spin-off's Cracked and Crazy.

http://comicbookrealm.com/cover-scan/d93135a07b9c7d439a23b5d95bbf96d3/l/dark-horse-moebius-o-the-horny-goof-other-underground-stories-issue-1.jpg

AeonPax
08-12-2015, 07:13 AM
`
`
I've been collecting and reading comics since I was a teen, mainly Marvel, on occasion, DC. I specifically like ultra powerful females such as Nemesis, Saturnyne, Infinity, Phoenix Force (Jean Grey), Oshtur and Binary (Carol Danvers). Any one of these women could wax the floor with Thanos or Galactus.

I watched the the new "Supergirl" pilot and thought it stunk. It's riddled with clichés and tropes. Miscast lead actress and the writers decided to make her less powerful than Superman....bunch of crock.

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 07:13 AM
Sorry, that was off-topic.

I know one thing, and me and my old D&D buddies used to say this a lot, there aren't many B-cups in femme fiction.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oxyemdZafi4/VIsuQMZIzQI/AAAAAAAAFvw/uR999NnQWBk/s1600/tomb-raider.png

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 07:36 AM
I think the topic of comics is on subject....there were not any female super heroes in early comics. I think Super girl was offered as a side-kick/love interest.

Even the Archie comics, which had several females, were always about the guys....the female characters were something for pre-adolescent boys to drool over.

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 07:40 AM
I think the topic of comics is on subject....there were not any female super heroes in early comics. I think Super girl was offered as a side-kick/love interest.

Even the Archie comics, which had several females, were always about the guys....the female characters were something for pre-adolescent boys to drool over.

Thelma from Scooby Doo was fucking smoking hot IMO, there's dirty versions of all those old comics on the interwebs now... so I'm told.

:biglaugh:

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 07:41 AM
Thelma from Scooby Doo was fucking smoking hot IMO, there's dirty versions of all those old comics on the interwebs now... so I'm told.

:biglaugh:

That is a disturbing image.....

Green Arrow
08-12-2015, 08:29 AM
I love a lot of female superheroes, but I think some of the things they've done have just gone too far, and I think even feminists ought to oppose those things. For example, Marvel decided to make Thor into a woman. Not the man himself, he's still off working. No, they had Jane Foster pick up the hammer and named her "Thor."

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 08:41 AM
Comics are dead as far as I'm concerned.

They market political correctness, not fantasy and entertainment anymore.

We have become such a neutered culture.

nathanbforrest45
08-12-2015, 10:11 AM
Superman did not start the "Man as Superhero" culture. In Greek Mythology it was the male as hero and often the female was a villain of sorts, i.e. the Sirens. Only girly boys like the female superhero's (well Wonder Woman wasn't too bad and she had nice boobs)

AeonPax
08-12-2015, 12:10 PM
I think the topic of comics is on subject....there were not any female super heroes in early comics. I think Super girl was offered as a side-kick/love interest. Even the Archie comics, which had several females, were always about the guys....the female characters were something for pre-adolescent boys to drool over.
`
Early Wonder Woman comics started in 1941 and she was fighting the Axis powers as any Amazonian princess would do.

IMPress Polly
08-12-2015, 12:18 PM
My experience with comic books has been mostly limited to Archie's version of Sonic the Hedgehog. :grin: I got my first issue (issue 7) as a Christmas present in 1993 when Sonic was near the zenith of his popularity as a game character and starting to be mass merchandised and I just never stopped collecting them after that because the story seemed to grow up with me (...to a point). Until this year. I finally stopped collecting them earlier this year after they decided to do another ridiculous tie-in with the Mega Man storyline because maintaining a complete collection has just gotten ridiculously arduous and expensive and the stories aren't maturing and have grown way too dependent on cliches overall. The main factor was the growing expense of keeping my collection complete. It used to be that I could pay less than $20 a year to get everything in the Sonic comic universe. By earlier this year, I was having to shell out more than $300 a year to accomplish the same feat, and mind you that most of that expense was going toward double and triple copies of stories I already had because, you know, your collection just isn't complete unless you have all the collector covers of each issue from their three separate comic series (plus those for the Mega Man comics for the latest tie-in) and the like six different graphic novel recap series they've introduced since 2012, plus the magazine, which is also basically a collection of old stories. That's how ridiculously commercial it's gotten and I just don't have the motivation to keep up with it all anymore. They finally gave me more Sonic than I could handle. :tongue:

As to the role of female characters, the Sonic comic universe has a lot of them for sure, but they've rarely been much of a focus. Until recently. The last year or so I think saw some meaningful change in that connection. The best part for my taste was a Nicole origin Sonic Universe arc since Nicole is my favorite character in the Sonic universe. :cool2: But seriously, the improvement is minimal. They have no permanent female members on the staff, for example, if you look at the credits in the comics. No regular female writers, pencilers, editors, ink and color people, nothing. Close to half the fan base seems to be female but that doesn't seem to be changing the composition of the people working on the comic. The stories and art style tend to reflect that fact, I find.


PolWatch wrote:
That is a disturbing image.....

Does Captain Obvious ever "contribute" anything but those?


Green Arrow wrote:
I love a lot of female superheroes, but I think some of the things they've done have just gone too far...

Of course you do. :rollseyes:


Nathan wrote:
Superman did not start the "Man as Superhero" culture. In Greek Mythology it was the male as hero and often the female was a villain of sorts, i.e. the Sirens. Only girly boys like the female superhero's (well Wonder Woman wasn't too bad and she had nice boobs)

All this from Captain Obvious, GA, and Nathan reminds me of an interesting panel of female comic creators I saw not to long ago. The general consensus (with one notable exception) was that they felt welcomed by the industry, but not so much by the fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIRv-oaZ12A

(The above panel was conducted in response to a Denver Comic Con panel discussing the role of women in the early history of the comics business, both on the page and in the office. It was an all-male panel. Thus did a collection of female comic creators decide to do one of their own.)

Green Arrow
08-12-2015, 12:39 PM
Comics are dead as far as I'm concerned.

They market political correctness, not fantasy and entertainment anymore.

We have become such a neutered culture.

Comics have always done that. The X-Men were created in the 1960s to represent the fight for civil rights, mutants taking the role of blacks in the world.

Green Arrow
08-12-2015, 12:40 PM
Of course you do. :rollseyes:

All this from Captain Obvious, GA, and Nathan reminds me of an interesting panel of female comic creators I saw not to long ago. The general consensus (with one notable exception) was that they felt welcomed by the industry, but not so much by the fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIRv-oaZ12A

Is that really how you're going to play this? You're not going to ask for clarification or even try to understand my POV, you're just going to automatically assume that I hate strong, free women taking over the roles of men?

southwest88
08-12-2015, 12:58 PM
...

Swamp thing, Fantastic 4 were big on my list. And off-the-wall stuff, the really graphic stuff started coming out and I was buying the really bad horror comics, I forgot what they were called. The Horny Goof was one that I remember, tried finding remnants of that series on the interwebs but there's only bits and pieces out there. Haven't found many folks who remembered it.

...



Moebius is still quite famous. Several of his stories were made into animated shorts (20 - 25 min. or so), in French & Spanish & English. & they're on the 'Net - just look under Moebius & Arzach, I think the name of the character was. Beautiful work. There's also a couple of full-length animated movies out there, also under Moebius. He had quite the career.

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 01:45 PM
Comics have always done that. The X-Men were created in the 1960s to represent the fight for civil rights, mutants taking the role of blacks in the world.

I think the heyday of comics has long passed. I'm not sure when it was but it's long gone, maybe during or before I was a kid.

Captain Obvious
08-12-2015, 01:46 PM
Moebius is still quite famous. Several of his stories were made into animated shorts (20 - 25 min. or so), in French & Spanish & English. & they're on the 'Net - just look under Moebius & Arzach, I think the name of the character was. Beautiful work. There's also a couple of full-length animated movies out there, also under Moebius. He had quite the career.

Thanks southwest88 , I'll see if I can dig them up.

Heavy Metal was one that I had a bunch of too. I don't remember where I got them from though.

Green Arrow
08-12-2015, 02:39 PM
I think the heyday of comics has long passed. I'm not sure when it was but it's long gone, maybe during or before I was a kid.

Yeah, that's why 50%+ of the yearly list of movies in theatres are comics-based movies raking in millions (over a billion for The Avengers).

Hal Jordan
08-12-2015, 03:07 PM
I think the heyday of comics has long passed. I'm not sure when it was but it's long gone, maybe during or before I was a kid.

I strongly disagree with that assessment. I believe we are currently in the heyday of comics. Their acceptance as a whole has gotten much stronger, their popularity is growing, and their effect may well be greater now than ever.

Carlsen
08-12-2015, 03:21 PM
At last! There is hope for the male damsel (also known as the Distressed Dude). Don't worry little fella, we'll protect you! :grin:

'Ever since Superman first burst onto the printed page in 1938, superheroes have become a staple of American storytelling — from comic books and TV shows to blockbuster movies and video games — conquering evil and injustice throughout. But when you hear the word “superhero,” you probably picture a strapping costumed man swooping in to save the day. However, a new generation of artists and writers are changing that image, responding to the ever-growing number of female fans who want to see their gender reflected in these heroic tales.

From Ms. Marvel (http://marvel.com/comics/series/18468/ms_marvel_2014_-_present)to Batgirl (http://www.dccomics.com/characters/batgirl), more and more female heroes are breaking through in a big way, redefining the gender roles that, for years, depicted women simply as “damsels in distress.” With a fan base that’s now 47 percent female, the notion of comic book superheroes being a boys club is now a thing of the past. Publishers like Marvel, (http://marvel.com/) DC (http://www.dccomics.com/)and Image (https://imagecomics.com/) have answered the demand for more female protagonists, and behind the pages, a new wave of female creators are giving these characters the presence they never had. From writers G. Willow Wilson (http://gwillowwilson.com/) and Kelly Sue DeConnick (http://kellysue.tumblr.com/) to artists like Babs Tarr (http://babsbabsbabs.com/), the comic book industry has never seemed so diverse.

As many eagerly wait for Hollywood to catch up to comicdom with upcoming films like “Captain Marvel” and “Wonder Woman,” and television shows like “Supergirl (http://www.cbs.com/shows/supergirl/),” these comic book creators are ringing in a new golden age for the female superhero, and the world of crime fighting will never be the same.'

https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/rise-of-the-female-superhero-ever-since-superman-126459307033.html



You are right. This is my superhero


http://getnetworth.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/brooklyn-decker-net-worth2.jpg



.

AeonPax
08-12-2015, 04:25 PM
You are right. This is my superhero


http://getnetworth.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/brooklyn-decker-net-worth2.jpg



.


And a fine superhero she is indeed.

CreepyOldDude
08-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Thelma from Scooby Doo was fucking smoking hot IMO, there's dirty versions of all those old comics on the interwebs now... so I'm told.

:biglaugh:

Velma, with a V.

All hail the V!

:)

CreepyOldDude
08-12-2015, 06:18 PM
I love a lot of female superheroes, but I think some of the things they've done have just gone too far, and I think even feminists ought to oppose those things. For example, Marvel decided to make Thor into a woman. Not the man himself, he's still off working. No, they had Jane Foster pick up the hammer and named her "Thor."

Wonder Woman was technically the first female Thor, if you define Thor as one Mjolnir considers worthy to wield it. She wielded it in 2004.

Hal Jordan
08-12-2015, 09:19 PM
Wonder Woman was technically the first female Thor, if you define Thor as one Mjolnir considers worthy to wield it. She wielded it in 2004.

Thor is a person's birth name, not a title to be given to anyone. That is the only​ way to define Thor.

Green Arrow
08-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Wonder Woman was technically the first female Thor, if you define Thor as one Mjolnir considers worthy to wield it. She wielded it in 2004.

Two totally different things. Plenty of people have wielded Mjolnir, including The Hulk. They didn't become "Thor."

In this case, Jane Foster becomes Thor. Not She-Thor, or Lady Thor, or some other Asgardian name. Just Thor. Thor is a name, not a title to be passed around.

Carlsen
08-12-2015, 11:46 PM
Thor is a person's birth name, not a title to be given to anyone. That is the only​ way to define Thor.

.

håller med, Thor är en kille och han är bara en kille. inte för tjejer :mad:


Thor Odinson... you have betrayed the express command of your king. Through your arrogance and stupidity, you've opened these peaceful realms and innocent lives to the horror and desolation of war! You are unworthy of these realms, you're unworthy of your title, you're unworthy... of the loved ones you have betrayed! I now take from you your power!

.




.

zelmo1234
08-12-2015, 11:46 PM
I never got into comics.

Communist! :)

zelmo1234
08-12-2015, 11:47 PM
Well I remember Wonder women, the bionic women, Bat Girl all from when I was a child. the Xmen always had women superhero's in my sons day and age?

I think that it has always been the case

Captain Obvious
08-13-2015, 07:47 AM
I strongly disagree with that assessment. I believe we are currently in the heyday of comics. Their acceptance as a whole has gotten much stronger, their popularity is growing, and their effect may well be greater now than ever.

I couldn't disagree more.

We are in the heyday of video games and IPods. Comics are a novel nostalgia. Don't let Hollywood fool you, they make comic book hero movies because they're out of ideas for movies, which is why there are so many fucking kids movies anymore and everything else is crap.

CreepyOldDude
08-13-2015, 05:48 PM
Two totally different things. Plenty of people have wielded Mjolnir, including The Hulk. They didn't become "Thor."

In this case, Jane Foster becomes Thor. Not She-Thor, or Lady Thor, or some other Asgardian name. Just Thor. Thor is a name, not a title to be passed around.

Okay, I can see that. But Hulk didn't actually wield Mjolnir. He grabbed the handle just as Thor called to it. Hulk was just holding on as Thor manipulated Mjolnir.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1IE_oJwC--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1249846640619338896.jpg
Avengers Assemble #4

Or were thinking of Red Hulk? I believe that was in Hulk (2008) #5. But I never read that one, so I don't know if it's really Mjolnir, or one of Loki's fakes.

Dr. Who
08-13-2015, 05:57 PM
Does Mad Magazine count as a comic? I never liked comics but I liked the MM.....What, me worry?

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.m3xVZ6l8A2ahMG1VrjRzYg&pid=15.1&P=0
My transformative years included grocery shopping Thursdays at the magazine rack in the store, reading MAD magazine. Sometimes I even bought them. Thwap!

Cthulhu
08-13-2015, 06:03 PM
I think the topic of comics is on subject....there were not any female super heroes in early comics. I think Super girl was offered as a side-kick/love interest.

Even the Archie comics, which had several females, were always about the guys....the female characters were something for pre-adolescent boys to drool over.
If you back from enough, she was actually created go be a companion for Superman. Naturally she died to save superman from kryptonite. But they rebooted that gaggle many times.

Especially since writers figured out they can make money off of toned down erotica and the "ideal" female figure.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Cthulhu
08-13-2015, 06:07 PM
And a fine superhero she is indeed.
She probably rescues seamen on a regular basis.

...I know. I am a horrible person.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Captain Obvious
08-13-2015, 06:12 PM
She probably rescues seamen on a regular basis.

...I know. I am a horrible person.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

That was hard to swallow

Hal Jordan
08-13-2015, 11:14 PM
I couldn't disagree more.

We are in the heyday of video games and IPods. Comics are a novel nostalgia. Don't let Hollywood fool you, they make comic book hero movies because they're out of ideas for movies, which is why there are so many fucking kids movies anymore and everything else is crap.

I'm not taking Hollywood's views into account. I never brought up Hollywood. I'm talking about comics themselves. Everything else is just window dressing...

Hal Jordan
08-13-2015, 11:17 PM
Okay, I can see that. But Hulk didn't actually wield Mjolnir. He grabbed the handle just as Thor called to it. Hulk was just holding on as Thor manipulated Mjolnir.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1IE_oJwC--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1249846640619338896.jpg
Avengers Assemble #4

Or were thinking of Red Hulk? I believe that was in Hulk (2008) #5. But I never read that one, so I don't know if it's really Mjolnir, or one of Loki's fakes.

Wonder Woman possessed the power and didn't take the name of Thor... The closest would be Beta Ray Bill, and it still recognized Thor as a proper name. Captain America wasn't Thor when he wielded the hammer, he was still Captain America. I think I've made my point.

Cthulhu
08-14-2015, 03:27 AM
That was hard to swallow
Tough to fit that many seamen inside of a small compartment.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

exotix
08-14-2015, 10:49 AM
http://i57.tinypic.com/2ivfgg5.jpg

exotix
08-14-2015, 10:52 AM
http://i60.tinypic.com/2ue73iu.jpg

exotix
08-14-2015, 10:54 AM
http://www.reellifewithjane.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Game-of-War-Fire-Age-Kate-Upton-3.jpg

exotix
08-14-2015, 10:58 AM
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-1DoGoXkXrG0/VAhG1zkqB6I/AAAAAAAALfs/CGjF4TF8pOk/Halle-Berry-Catwoman-sexy-hot-hottie-1.gif

http://hdlatestwallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Catwoman-Halle-Berry-e1395472588237.jpg

CreepyOldDude
08-14-2015, 01:41 PM
Wonder Woman possessed the power and didn't take the name of Thor... The closest would be Beta Ray Bill, and it still recognized Thor as a proper name. Captain America wasn't Thor when he wielded the hammer, he was still Captain America. I think I've made my point.

Well, since I'd already acceded the same point from Green Arrow, I'd say that it was sufficiently made, yes.

CreepyOldDude
08-14-2015, 01:45 PM
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-1DoGoXkXrG0/VAhG1zkqB6I/AAAAAAAALfs/CGjF4TF8pOk/Halle-Berry-Catwoman-sexy-hot-hottie-1.gif

http://hdlatestwallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Catwoman-Halle-Berry-e1395472588237.jpg

A lot of people hated that movie, but I liked it.

decedent
08-14-2015, 02:35 PM
Superman did not start the "Man as Superhero" culture. In Greek Mythology it was the male as hero and often the female was a villain of sorts, i.e. the Sirens. Only girly boys like the female superhero's (well Wonder Woman wasn't too bad and she had nice boobs)


Agreed. Only a little gay boy would enjoy something like this:
http://pre07.deviantart.net/9de6/th/pre/i/2013/139/9/7/supergirl_in_the_sky_by_renato_camilo_by_tony058-d65vwzc.jpg

exotix
08-14-2015, 02:51 PM
These 9 Celebrities Completely Nailed The Superhero Look !

http://www.tomorrowoman.com/culture/celeb-superhero/?utm_campaign=Superhero Look - Desktop&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.taboolasyndication.co m%2Flibtrc%2Fstatic%2Fthumbnails%2Fe8d43a2e325cf77 35b2e3902265b1c12.jpg&utm_term=9+Celebrities+Who+Completely+Nailed+The+S uperhero+Look!


Kim Kardashian

http://www.tomorrowoman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Snip20150520_23.png

Cthulhu
08-14-2015, 03:18 PM
These 9 Celebrities Completely Nailed The Superhero Look !

http://www.tomorrowoman.com/culture/celeb-superhero/?utm_campaign=Superhero Look - Desktop&utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.taboolasyndication.co m%2Flibtrc%2Fstatic%2Fthumbnails%2Fe8d43a2e325cf77 35b2e3902265b1c12.jpg&utm_term=9+Celebrities+Who+Completely+Nailed+The+S uperhero+Look!


Kim Kardashian

http://www.tomorrowoman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Snip20150520_23.png
Time to get the Round Up.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 06:34 AM
Hey everyone, I know I mentioned before that comics related to the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise were the only ones I collected, but this thread inspired me to scrounge through my comics collection again and, when I went back to my comics from the '90s and early 2000s, I discovered some I'd forgotten about when I made my earlier post. I actually also have the NiGHTS Into Dreams mini-series by Archie Comics (which is, of course, inspired by the Sega Saturn game) as well as a random assortment of old Sabrina the Teenage Witch comics (also by Archie; I never really strayed far outside the Archie Comics orbit) and a number of Godzilla comics from the late '90s. It's been so long since I acquired those that it must've slipped my mind before. Guess I do actually have a slightly deeper connection to the world of comics than I initially recalled!

Anyway... @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)


Green Arrow wrote:
Is that really how you're going to play this? You're not going to ask for clarification or even try to understand my POV, you're just going to automatically assume that I hate strong, free women taking over the roles of men?

There's no need for clarification. When you come out against movement toward equal representation for women and advise me to do the same as a feminist, I think you've lost perspective. The simple fact of the matter is that even with the ostensible evils of female Thor and whatnot out there, at least 80 or 90% of comic book superhero characters are still male even here while nearly half the reading audience is female. We are objectively so far from anything resembling equal or fair representation for women in comics, in other words, that only a tremendous amount of entitlement and hypersensitivity about it can result in any other perception.

The big picture is this: the advent of web comics in recent years has significantly expanded the comics market to lots of demographic groups that weren't traditionally readers and among those are girls. The comics biz is responding to that development by listening more to what its few female creators want to do, and what they want to do is appeal to these new readers: women, LGBT people, etc. That's change and change scares some reactionaries who want the comics fan base to continue to look like it traditionally has rather than be inclusive and broader-based, with more comics that appeal to more people.

And there's nothing "automatic" about the development of my opinion here. I mean this isn't the first or second conversation like this that we've had before, is it? You seem to feel the same way about all artistic mediums.

Speaking of other artistic mediums, the whole female Thor controversy reminds me a lot of one that I can relate to more directly, as someone who is more interested in and committed to the gaming scene: When last year's first video preview of the next major Legend of Zelda game for the Wii U was shown at E3, many fans remarked on social media that the new Link "looks feminine". The allegation drove a wave a speculation that Link's latest incarnation (the Link and Zelda in each Zelda game are different incarnations of the same spirits) was going to be female. The game's producer, Eiji Aonuma, quickly clarified that the new Link was male, but also remarked that what the fans were saying about his look was "interesting" and that they would consider making the new Link female if there proved to be sufficient demand. Many feminists and female fans (myself included in both categories) liked the idea, but unsurprisingly GamerGate did not, objecting with much the same logic people here are using against the idea of making "Thor" a title.

In case you're wondering what the case is for making Link female in the next major Legend of Zelda game for Wii U, here's the case for doing so as presented by Jamin Warren of PBS Game/Show earlier this year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB6ucVBOfCQ

I agree with his argument. Much like the Thor comics, the Legend of Zelda franchise has no shortage of female fans and Link is a personality-devoid blank slate hero character upon whom one is supposed to mentally impose their own personality. Why then does he always have to be male? Why is it that female fans are always supposed to relate in this sense to men, but never to women? Moreover, it makes sense that Link would be female, considering that the Zelda universe tends to cast the side of virtue as being mostly feminine anyway. Furthermore, the survey data shows that women tend to identify much more strongly with female protagonists than with male protagonists, where the reverse isn't true (i.e. men, by contrast, don't tend to identify a lot more with male than with female protagonists). Personally, I think having a Zelda installment wherein Link was female would change what the franchise is about in a good way. There have been enough damsel in distress installments to this franchise. It's been nearly 30 years since this franchise got started. It's time for something different. The objections are, you know, Link has always been male and this is just politics and whatnot. I don't think that's a very strong argument. It's just a conservative argument fearful of change. The whole Thor controversy sounds very similar to me and I strongly suspect that there's a large degree to which it's literally the exact same people objecting to both of these feminizations considering how much overlap there is between the gaming and comic book fan bases.

Mister D
08-15-2015, 08:02 AM
If so many women read comics you'd think many more women would be inclined to produce comics. Until they do, you won't see "fair" representation of women in that genre. Females shouldn't rely on males for their representation. You'll have a long wait.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 08:48 AM
Except I've never come out against female representation in comics. I'm all for it, I just think it's cheap to take my favorite superhero, strip him of his name, and slap it on a female character so you can pretend you're being socially responsible. There are existing females in Thor's universe, pretty badass ones. If they gave Sif or Valkyrie the hammer and ran their title in place of Thor's, I'd be 100% behind it.


Hey everyone, I know I mentioned before that comics related to the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise were the only ones I collected, but this thread inspired me to scrounge through my comics collection again and, when I went back to my comics from the '90s and early 2000s, I discovered some I'd forgotten about when I made my earlier post. I actually also have the NiGHTS Into Dreams mini-series by Archie Comics (which is, of course, inspired by the Sega Saturn game) as well as a random assortment of old Sabrina the Teenage Witch comics (also by Archie; I never really strayed far outside the Archie Comics orbit) and a number of Godzilla comics from the late '90s. It's been so long since I acquired those that it must've slipped my mind before. Guess I do actually have a slightly deeper connection to the world of comics than I initially recalled!

Anyway... @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)



There's no need for clarification. When you come out against movement toward equal representation for women and advise me to do the same as a feminist, I think you've lost perspective. The simple fact of the matter is that even with the ostensible evils of female Thor and whatnot out there, at least 80 or 90% of comic book superhero characters are still male even here while nearly half the reading audience is female. We are objectively so far from anything resembling equal or fair representation for women in comics, in other words, that only a tremendous amount of entitlement and hypersensitivity about it can result in any other perception.

The big picture is this: the advent of web comics in recent years has significantly expanded the comics market to lots of demographic groups that weren't traditionally readers and among those are girls. The comics biz is responding to that development by listening more to what its few female creators want to do, and what they want to do is appeal to these new readers: women, LGBT people, etc. That's change and change scares some reactionaries who want the comics fan base to continue to look like it traditionally has rather than be inclusive and broader-based, with more comics that appeal to more people.

And there's nothing "automatic" about the development of my opinion here. I mean this isn't the first or second conversation like this that we've had before, is it? You seem to feel the same way about all artistic mediums.

Speaking of other artistic mediums, the whole female Thor controversy reminds me a lot of one that I can relate to more directly, as someone who is more interested and committed to the gaming scene: When last year's first video preview of the next major Legend of Zelda game for the Wii U was shown at E3, many fans remarked on social media that the new Link "looked feminine". The allegation drove a wave a speculation that Link's latest incarnation (the Link and Zelda in each Zelda game are different incarnations of the same spirits) was going to be female. The game's producer, Eiji Aonuma, quickly clarified that the new Link was male, but also remarked that what the fans were saying about his look was "interesting" and that they would consider making the new Link female if there proved to be sufficient demand. Many feminists and female fans (myself included in both categories) liked the idea, but unsurprisingly GamerGate did not, objecting with much the same logic people here are using against the idea of making "Thor" a title.

In case you're wondering what the case is for making Link female in the next major Legend of Zelda game for Wii U, here's the case for doing so as presented by Jamin Warren of PBS Game/Show earlier this year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB6ucVBOfCQ

I agree with his argument. Much like the Thor comics, the Legend of Zelda franchise has no shortage of female fans and Link is a personality-devoid blank slate hero character upon whom one is supposed to mentally impose their own personality. Why then does he always have to be male? Why is it that female fans are always supposed to relate in this sense to men, but never to women? Moreover, it makes sense that Link would be female, considering that the Zelda universe tends to cast the side of virtue as being mostly feminine anyway. Furthermore, the survey data shows that women tend to identify much more strongly with female protagonists than with male protagonists, where the reverse isn't true (i.e. men, by contrast, don't tend to identify a lot more with male than with female protagonists). Personally, I think having a Zelda installment wherein Link was female would change what the franchise is about in a good way. There have been enough damsel in distress installments to this franchise. It's been nearly 30 years since this franchise got started. It's time for something different. The objections are, you know, Link has always been male and this is just politics and whatnot. I don't think that's a very strong argument. It's just a conservative argument fearful of change. The whole Thor controversy sounds very similar to me and I strongly suspect that there's a large degree to which it's literally the exact same people objecting to both of these feminizations considering how much overlap there is between the gaming and comic book fan bases.

Mister D
08-15-2015, 08:53 AM
Arrow makes an excellent point. When yo do rely on men to represent you they wind up doing really silly shit like turning Thor into a chick.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 08:58 AM
Arrow makes an excellent point. When yo do rely on men to represent you they wind up doing really silly shit like turning Thor into a chick.

Well, Thor is still the same guy, they just treated his name, "Thor," like the title of "Captain America." So, there are two Thors running around. One of them is the real Thor, the other is the new She-Thor.

Mister D
08-15-2015, 09:01 AM
Well, Thor is still the same guy, they just treated his name, "Thor," like the title of "Captain America." So, there are two Thors running around. One of them is the real Thor, the other is the new She-Thor.

It's kind of silly any way you slice it.

Peter1469
08-15-2015, 09:12 AM
Comics are silly to me, so I can't get extra worked up over a fake female Thor.

southwest88
08-15-2015, 09:26 AM
It's kind of silly any way you slice it.

Yah, the comics world is self-referential, ever since the Comics Code went into effect (1930s?). There was too much blood & gore, & unacceptable social situations, etc. So, the comics got fixed, & time marched on. The comics went into a kind of Leave it to Beaver world - with stylized & v. limited violence - fists, etc. - BIF! BAM! POW! & so on.

The rap on comics was that they were anarchic, revolutionary - you know, the whole upheaval of the World in panel form. So yes - if the demographics of the readers skew female, then there need to be more women involved in the creative side. If not, the comics will just be more wallpaper for Sears ads - bright, safe, a slightly (!) jazzier kind of eye candy than run-of-the-mill. All the print media in the West (everywhere?) are in trouble anyway - somewhere, someone is looking @ sales projections v. costs & trying to decide whether to fish or cut bait on comics in general.

Time to make your move, ladies.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 10:07 AM
Green Arrow wrote:
Except I've never come out against female representation in comics. I'm all for it, I just think it's cheap to take my favorite superhero, strip him of his name, and slap it on a female character so you can pretend you're being socially responsible. There are existing females in Thor's universe, pretty badass ones. If they gave Sif or Valkyrie the hammer and ran their title in place of Thor's, I'd be 100% behind it.

Oh I'm sure if that were the case, you'd be able to come up with another objection.

I can understand your connection to a particular character, but wonder what it is about that character being female that renders them suddenly unappealing? Maybe it's the fact that I don't read the Thor comics and don't understand the Thor universe accordingly, but it just instinctively seems silly to me that just making Thor female renders Thor suddenly a horrible character that fans can't possibly relate to. And I mean even if you don't like the new version of Thor, have you ever considered the fact that you're not the only reader of that comic? That there are lots of female readers who probably have liked the change?

What's sacred about the title is I guess what I'm asking.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 10:38 AM
Oh I'm sure if that were the case, you'd be able to come up with another objection.

I can understand your connection to a particular character, but wonder what it is about that character being female that renders them suddenly unappealing? Maybe it's the fact that I don't read the Thor comics and don't understand the Thor universe accordingly, but it just instinctively seems silly to me that just making Thor female renders Thor suddenly a horrible character that fans can't possibly relate to. And I mean even if you don't like the new version of Thor, have you ever considered the fact that you're not the only reader of that comic? That there are lots of female readers who probably have liked the change?

What's sacred about the title is I guess what I'm asking.

It's not a title. "Thor" is a name. "Captain America" is a title. I LOVE the idea of Falcon becoming Captain America. That makes sense. Suddenly treating the proper name of Thor as a title and handing it to Jane Foster of all people does not make sense.

Seriously, how is this okay to you? Why can't female heroes like Jane Foster exist on their own with their own name? They are basically telling you that the only way this woman would be worth a story is if she took this dude's name and legacy.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 11:06 AM
Green Arrow wrote:
It's not a title. "Thor" is a name. "Captain America" is a title. I LOVE the idea of Falcon becoming Captain America. That makes sense. Suddenly treating the proper name of Thor as a title and handing it to Jane Foster of all people does not make sense.

Seriously, how is this okay to you? Why can't female heroes like Jane Foster exist on their own with their own name? They are basically telling you that the only way this woman would be worth a story is if she took this dude's name and legacy.

Like I said, I don't really know much about the Thor franchise, so all I can speak to is the principle as it seems to me from the outside. What it seems like to me is that this is an attempt to convey the point that a character like Thor doesn't need to be male.

Different franchises are elevating the role of female characters using different approaches and this is just one of them. It could be contrasted with the Supergirl approach on the other end of the spectrum, which strikes me as the worst approach. I don't know which approach is best. It probably depends on the individual franchise and I'm not intimately familiar with many. But characters like Supergirl and Batgirl who are just "sexy" extensions of their more famous and popular male counterparts I find the most demeaning whenever I see them.

In any event, as someone who follows movies a lot more closely than comics, the main thing vis-a-vis what I find to be the generally lame superhero genre that I'm looking forward to is one...just ONE...live-action movie that's about a female superhero. Though the film genre has been around for decades, there still isn't a single movie about even the most prominent of the female characters. I mean seriously: a character as obscure as Ant-Man gets his own movie before Wonder Woman? And that's fair?

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 11:30 AM
Like I said, I don't really know much about the Thor franchise, so all I can speak to is the principle as it seems to me from the outside. What it seems like to me is that this is an attempt to convey the point that a character like Thor doesn't need to be male.

Different franchises are elevating the role of female characters using different approaches and this is just one of them. It could be contrasted with the Supergirl approach on the other end of the spectrum, which strikes me as the worst approach. I don't know which approach is best. It probably depends on the individual franchise and I'm not intimately familiar with many. But characters like Supergirl and Batgirl who are just "sexy" extensions of their more famous and popular male counterparts I find the most demeaning whenever I see them.

In any event, as someone who follows movies a lot more closely than comics, the main thing vis-a-vis what I find to be the generally lame superhero genre that I'm looking forward to is one...just ONE...live-action movie that's about a female superhero. Though the film genre has been around for decades, there still isn't a single movie about even the most prominent of the female characters. I mean seriously: a character as obscure as Ant-Man gets his own movie before Wonder Woman? And that's fair?

As I said, I agree with you. Hal Jordan knows I'm on record saying that Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow should have all gotten their own movies before Ant-Man. Hell, I wish we had a Squirrel Girl movie before Ant-Man. And also as I've said, they should have pushed Thor into the background and given his title to Valkyrie. Not his name or his identity.

AeonPax
08-15-2015, 11:31 AM
Oh I'm sure if that were the case, you'd be able to come up with another objection.I can understand your connection to a particular character, but wonder what it is about that character being female that renders them suddenly unappealing? Maybe it's the fact that I don't read the Thor comics and don't understand the Thor universe accordingly, but it just instinctively seems silly to me that just making Thor female renders Thor suddenly a horrible character that fans can't possibly relate to. And I mean even if you don't like the new version of Thor, have you ever considered the fact that you're not the only reader of that comic? That there are lots of female readers who probably have liked the change? What's sacred about the title is I guess what I'm asking.
`
The writers of Thor have taken some strange twists with the character. The original Thor lost his arm and hammer to Malekith. Jane Foster, Thor's girlfriend on earth, now has the hammer and the power that goes with it. While I can always relate to another female super hero, the story line has become absurd. It would be like Pepper Potts being the new Ironwoman. So in a way, I can sympathize as this turn of events seems so forced and so contrived as to depart from the long held Thor mythos.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 12:42 PM
Well, I can't speak to or against the Thor comic specifically from the outside, but I will say that I definitely think there are lazy, contrived approaches to "empowerment" indeed. Here's an example I've seen recently: Not long ago, I picked up a martial arts movie that turned out to be so forgettable that I've already forgotten the title. Anyway, there was a scene in the movie where the one girl character (out of seven kids participating in the tournament) defeats a boy and then yells "Girl power!" in what's practically her only line in the movie. That was so unplausible that, especially in the context of the rest of the film wherein female characters play quite a minimal role, it seemed so lazy and contrived as to be a turn-off. When I ask for better representation, pandering is NOT what I mean!

I guess it might be said that there are multiple levels to representation:

1) Is it happening at all?

2) Is there actual thought being put into it? (i.e. Is there halfway believable character development going on, etc.?)

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 01:01 PM
Well, I can't speak to or against the Thor comic specifically from the outside, but I will say that I definitely think there are lazy, contrived approaches to "empowerment" indeed. Here's an example I've seen recently: Not long ago, I picked up a martial arts movie that turned out to be so forgettable that I've already forgotten the title. Anyway, there was a scene in the movie where the one girl character (out of seven kids participating in the tournament) defeats a boy and then yells "Girl power!" in what's practically her only line in the movie. That was so unplausible that, especially in the context of the rest of the film wherein female characters play quite a minimal role, it seemed so lazy and contrived as to be a turn-off. When I ask for better representation, pandering is NOT what I mean!

I guess it might be said that there are multiple levels to representation:

1) Is it happening at all?

2) Is there actual thought being put into it? (i.e. Is there halfway believable character development going on, etc.?)

That's essentially my point with Thor, that it comes across more as pandering than legitimate empowerment. Obviously, I'm not a woman, but to me, it seems like it would be more insulting than anything else.

AeonPax
08-15-2015, 01:24 PM
That's essentially my point with Thor, that it comes across more as pandering than legitimate empowerment. Obviously, I'm not a woman, but to me, it seems like it would be more insulting than anything else.
`
I would have to agree with you that at least from a writers angle, the writers of Thor have taken the cheap "deus ex machina" trope to extremes. Unfortunately, it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe, that is in control, not the comics anymore. The cash they generate far surpasses the combined total of every Marvel comic ever sold. Putting Jane Foster as a new Thor will eventually make it's way into the movies. My opinion.

Mister D
08-15-2015, 01:40 PM
My question is why do you expect men to do this for you?

kilgram
08-15-2015, 03:04 PM
As I said, I agree with you. @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994) knows I'm on record saying that Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow should have all gotten their own movies before Ant-Man. Hell, I wish we had a Squirrel Girl movie before Ant-Man. And also as I've said, they should have pushed Thor into the background and given his title to Valkyrie. Not his name or his identity.
I am lost with this thing of Thor. Are they changing Thor, or what the hell?

Seriously, it is becoming ridiculous.

Every hero, should have its own entity. Thor is a guy based in the Thor of the Viking mythology. Period. It was great. As I love to see superheroines with their own entity and personality.

I agree with you, green arrow in this there is no sense to changing a character that is absolutely defined. Even, duplicating a weapon. It is insulting. The hammer is supposedly be unique. Only one person can use it.

The only, thing that could change it, is that Thor gets killed, so it would become free to be used by another being suitable to it. And it can be any person of any sex :)

kilgram
08-15-2015, 03:07 PM
`
I would have to agree with you that at least from a writers angle, the writers of Thor have taken the cheap "deus ex machina" trope to extremes. Unfortunately, it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe, that is in control, not the comics anymore. The cash they generate far surpasses the combined total of every Marvel comic ever sold. Putting Jane Foster as a new Thor will eventually make it's way into the movies. My opinion.
Agreed, but she could have got her own superhero figure. And I believe that would be great.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 03:49 PM
I am lost with this thing of Thor. Are they changing Thor, or what the hell?

Basically, Mjolnir got stuck on the moon and for whatever reason, Thor is no longer worthy of wielding it. Jane Foster (somehow) gets onto the moon with no protective gear and picks up Mjolnir, transforming into the Goddess of Thunder. That's fine...except for the fact that she calls herself Thor and everyone else calls her Thor. That's a problem. She's not Thor, it's impossible for her to be Thor.


Every hero, should have its own entity. Thor is a guy based in the Thor of the Viking mythology. Period. It was great. As I love to see superheroines with their own entity and personality.

All I'm saying.


I agree with you, green arrow in this there is no sense to changing a character that is absolutely defined. Even, duplicating a weapon. It is insulting. The hammer is supposedly be unique. Only one person can use it.

The only, thing that could change it, is that Thor gets killed, so it would become free to be used by another being suitable to it. And it can be any person of any sex :)

Well, Mjolnir can be used by whoever it deems worthy. That part is sound with the lore. Jane Foster could very well be deemed worthy, as could anyone else. I don't know that there is precedent for more than one person being worthy at the same time, that may be a question for Hal Jordan.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 03:51 PM
Agreed, but she could have got her own superhero figure. And I believe that would be great.

Now that, I don't agree with. Jane Foster just isn't that interesting as a character and really is a side character. There are many women in Thor's universe that would be better suited for a primary role (and Marvel should have given them a primary role a long time ago), my preference being Valkyrie.

The Xl
08-15-2015, 04:23 PM
I'm all for more representation for super heroes, but why not just create another hero instead of taking one? It doesn't bother me much either way, just an observation.

kilgram
08-15-2015, 05:33 PM
Now that, I don't agree with. Jane Foster just isn't that interesting as a character and really is a side character. There are many women in Thor's universe that would be better suited for a primary role (and Marvel should have given them a primary role a long time ago), my preference being Valkyrie.
I don't know too well Marvel world.

However, you are right thar there are females to get a primary role.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 09:56 PM
`
The writers of Thor have taken some strange twists with the character. The original Thor lost his arm and hammer to Malekith. Jane Foster, Thor's girlfriend on earth, now has the hammer and the power that goes with it. While I can always relate to another female super hero, the story line has become absurd. It would be like Pepper Potts being the new Ironwoman. So in a way, I can sympathize as this turn of events seems so forced and so contrived as to depart from the long held Thor mythos.


That... Uhhh... Sorta happened... She called herself Rescue instead of Iron Woman, though...

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 10:02 PM
Basically, Mjolnir got stuck on the moon and for whatever reason, Thor is no longer worthy of wielding it. Jane Foster (somehow) gets onto the moon with no protective gear and picks up Mjolnir, transforming into the Goddess of Thunder. That's fine...except for the fact that she calls herself Thor and everyone else calls her Thor. That's a problem. She's not Thor, it's impossible for her to be Thor.



All I'm saying.



Well, Mjolnir can be used by whoever it deems worthy. That part is sound with the lore. Jane Foster could very well be deemed worthy, as could anyone else. I don't know that there is precedent for more than one person being worthy at the same time, that may be a question for @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994).

Yes, there have been multiple cases of others wielding the hammer while Thor was still worthy...

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 10:20 PM
So most of this thread has been a bunch of complaining about how the ways in which women are finding more representation in the world of superhero comic books are terrible, offensive, and that it needs to stop. How about the other side? Are there any good examples, comic fans, or is all existing momentum toward fairer representation just crap that's ruining comics irredeemably?

I know we're having an anti-feminist cultural moment this summer, but I hope that wouldn't need to be reflected in our every discussion of gender politics and their application in the real world. It's disheartening to hear nothing but unanimous contempt for the whole idea of progress and its every existing application.

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 10:50 PM
So most of this thread has been a bunch of complaining about how the ways in which women are finding more representation in the world of superhero comic books are terrible, offensive, and that it needs to stop. How about the other side? Are there any good examples, comic fans, or is all existing momentum toward fairer representation just crap that's ruining comics irredeemably?

I know we're having an anti-feminist cultural moment this summer, but I hope that wouldn't need to be reflected in our every discussion of gender politics and their application in the real world. It's disheartening to hear nothing but unanimous contempt for the whole idea of progress and its every existing application.

No, it hasn't. Most of it has been talking about taking someone's proper name and giving it to someone else. Would it be proper to start calling you Jacob? The issue isn't specifically about her having the powers. If it was done well, and she wasn't given someone else's birth name (not title, because a name and title are completely different thing), I would support it. I mean, the new Captain America isn't called Steve now. He's still Sam Wilson.

There are plenty of examples of female representation that are great. The new Ms. Marvel, for example, is excellent. Kate Bishop as Hawkeye is amazing.

You really shouldn't take the arguments and twist them into an anti-feminist agenda. It's wrong and dishonest. There is no contempt for the idea of progress here. The places where actual progress is being made should be recognized (I gave two amazing examples above), and where it is an illusion of progress, that should be stopped. Illusions don't help progress at all, but rather harm it.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 10:54 PM
Hal Jordan wrote:
You really shouldn't take the arguments and twist them into an anti-feminist agenda. It's wrong and dishonest.

It's not dishonesty, it's how it really feels to me, like it or not, believe it or not.

Green Arrow
08-15-2015, 11:10 PM
So most of this thread has been a bunch of complaining about how the ways in which women are finding more representation in the world of superhero comic books are terrible, offensive, and that it needs to stop. How about the other side? Are there any good examples, comic fans, or is all existing momentum toward fairer representation just crap that's ruining comics irredeemably?

I think most of the examples out there are great ones. Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Squirrel Girl. Sif is getting a bigger role in Thor 3: Ragnarok. The only one I don't like is what they did with Thor, but the main reason I dislike it is because they are keeping great Asgardian heroines like Valkyrie and Sif in the background, and won't even let heroic Jane Foster exist in her own identity.

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 11:18 PM
I think most of the examples out there are great ones. Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Squirrel Girl. Sif is getting a bigger role in Thor 3: Ragnarok. The only one I don't like is what they did with Thor, but the main reason I dislike it is because they are keeping great Asgardian heroines like Valkyrie and Sif in the background, and won't even let heroic Jane Foster exist in her own identity.

Oh, and there's also the fact that wielding the hammer is killing her. Basically saying she's too weak for the power. That's not progress.

The Xl
08-15-2015, 11:22 PM
So most of this thread has been a bunch of complaining about how the ways in which women are finding more representation in the world of superhero comic books are terrible, offensive, and that it needs to stop. How about the other side? Are there any good examples, comic fans, or is all existing momentum toward fairer representation just crap that's ruining comics irredeemably?

I know we're having an anti-feminist cultural moment this summer, but I hope that wouldn't need to be reflected in our every discussion of gender politics and their application in the real world. It's disheartening to hear nothing but unanimous contempt for the whole idea of progress and its every existing application.

I just think it's lazy to rebrand a hero. Why not be creative and make new female heros? That's the way I see it.

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 11:24 PM
It's not dishonesty, it's how it how it really feels to me, like it or not, believe it or not.

Well, the problem there isn't having a belief, but when you take someone else's words and twist them, it is dishonesty, intentional or not. The arguments against her haven't been "A woman can't wield the power of Thor!" They were "You're taking someone's birth name and giving it to someone else!" That's a huge difference. You've also ignored where great female characters were brought up, instead focusing on this one argument and twisting it into an argument against progress. The whole Jane Foster Thor thing has been the opposite of progress. A human woman uses the power of Thor and it is killing her. Human men have used the power of Thor, and not been affected like that.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 11:32 PM
If I can add a thought to all this, it's my personal opinion that American comics in general are too dependent on a one-genre formula: most all of them seem to be specifically superhero action comics. Now you could contrast that with Japan, where there are all sorts of comics genres for all different demographic groups. Not that we need to emulate everything about Japan, but just to point out a narrowness in the American comics universe that I've never really been attracted to. Though I support the right of female readers to have female heroes to look up to on equal terms and all, ultimately there are even bigger changes I kind of hope that American comics will undergo in terms of expanding into more genres and not just always relying on what I've found to be largely unappealing superhero stories. Just a small additional comment that I wanted to offer in my boredom tonight. :tongue:


Hal Jordan wrote:
Well, the problem there isn't having a belief, but when you take someone else's words and twist them, it is dishonesty, intentional or not.

I gave you my general impression of other people's words, not a deliberate distortion.

Hal Jordan
08-15-2015, 11:42 PM
If I can add a thought to all this, it's my personal opinion that American comics in general are too dependent on a one-genre formula: most all of them seem to be specifically superhero action comics. Now you could contrast that with Japan, where there are all sorts of comics genres for all different demographic groups. Not that we need to emulate everything about Japan, but just to point out a narrowness in the American comics universe that I've never really been attracted to. Though I support the right of female readers to have female heroes to look up to on equal terms and all, ultimately there are even bigger changes I kind of hope that American comics will undergo in terms of expanding into more genres and not just always relying on what I've found to be largely unappealing superhero stories. Just a small additional comment that I wanted to offer in my boredom tonight. :tongue:



I gave you my general impression of other people's words, not a deliberate distortion.

It's obvious you don't go to comic shops... :tongue: There is actually a wide variety of genres. The superhero genre is just the most popular one.

And I said whether it was intentional or not. I'm not saying it's deliberate, just viewed through the passion of your cause. Passion can be a good thing, but it can also distort what you read and hear. Passion must be tempered with judgement. I already pointed out what the argument actually was, but despite multiple attempts of people explaining, you still clung to the gender based idea. That's letting the passion cloud your judgement.

Now, can we talk about female superheroes that are actually awesome? Like Kate Bishop? I personally prefer reading her as Hawkeye over Clint Barton as Hawkeye.

IMPress Polly
08-15-2015, 11:48 PM
This is true. I haven't spent much time in comic shops in a long time now. But it's always seemed to me like 95% of American comics were superhero comics. The exceptions that come to mind that I've seen before are all by Archie Comics: Archie, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, that sorta thing. Maybe it's just my limited experience.

Anyway yeah, I'm up for hearing about more good examples of female superheroes like you're suggesting! But hey, recognizing that I'm kind of in the dark about the details of the comics universe tbh, may I request a little explanation as to WHAT makes these examples you're mentioning good in your view? Just a request as kind of an outsider!

Hal Jordan
08-16-2015, 12:08 AM
Well, let's start with the new Ms. Marvel. First she's a Muslim American, which provides unique story ideas on its own. She's a good example of what a superhero fan would be like if they were given super powers. In all, she's a well written character that provides a unique perspective.

Kate Bishop had a wealthy background and trained herself to be a master archer. She took the name when Clint was believed dead, and probed herself well enough to gain Clint's respect. Matt Fraction's Hawkeye comic spent time with each character, and I simply find her character more compelling. Again, she is a well written character, not dependant on the role of the men she meets and works with.

AeonPax
08-16-2015, 02:41 AM
Now that, I don't agree with. Jane Foster just isn't that interesting as a character and really is a side character. There are many women in Thor's universe that would be better suited for a primary role (and Marvel should have given them a primary role a long time ago), my preference being Valkyrie.
`
Brunhilda...yes.

AeonPax
08-16-2015, 03:07 AM
That... Uhhh... Sorta happened... She called herself Rescue instead of Iron Woman, though...
`
LOL. I collect comic books, unfortunately can't read them all. Truth be told, I'm big on Thanos, Galactus, Warlock....your more cosmic entities.

southwest88
08-16-2015, 10:35 AM
That's essentially my point with Thor, that it comes across more as pandering than legitimate empowerment. Obviously, I'm not a woman, but to me, it seems like it would be more insulting than anything else.

There was a moment in the 1960s with Marvel's introduction of N. Fury/SHIELD, Dr. Strange, breakthrough artwork on Spiderman, Fantastic Four. SHIELD & Dr. Strange, especially, took advantage of the high-tech gadgetry & magic/multiverses to do amazing opticals & panels. (This was also when Moebius, Druillet, Jadorowsky/Giger, Metal Hurlant/Heavy Metal & interesting work in US comics (Zap, R. Crumb, etc.) were developing.

But the moment passed - the movie impacts - where the visual styling could have passed into the mainstream, failed. The Jadorowsky Dune folded, too ambitious or not enough moxie, or something (an interesting documentary is out on the topic, movie). The French groundbreaking graphics work influence (not the graphics artists themselves, which might have flowered into something continuing) went into Dan O. Bannons' work on Dark Star, informed Fifth Element, Alien (Giger), Bladerunner (which cops a lot of French comics sets & tropes, especially from Metal Hurlant & their regular graphics people). US comics took a pass, & soon enough, the groundbreaking graphic work @ Marvel tapered off. My interest waned @ about the same time, & I haven't really looked back.

If you're interested, you can look @ artwork from early SHIELD & Dr. Strange, FF, Spiderman of about the same period.

Green Arrow
08-16-2015, 10:43 AM
This is true. I haven't spent much time in comic shops in a long time now. But it's always seemed to me like 95% of American comics were superhero comics. The exceptions that come to mind that I've seen before are all by Archie Comics: Archie, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, that sorta thing. Maybe it's just my limited experience.

Anyway yeah, I'm up for hearing about more good examples of female superheroes like you're suggesting! But hey, recognizing that I'm kind of in the dark about the details of the comics universe tbh, may I request a little explanation as to WHAT makes these examples you're mentioning good in your view? Just a request as kind of an outsider!

There's actually a revolution of sorts going on at Marvel. They are debuting an "all-new, all-different Marvel." X-23 will become the new Wolverine. Gwen Stacy is joining the regular Marvel Universe alongside Spider-Woman to add another major (and popular) female superhero to the Spider-Man universe, and she'll have her own title rather than just being a side character in Spider-Man's title. Hal Jordan already mentioned Ms. Marvel. A character named Angela is getting her own title as Queen of Asgard's Hel. The new Blade is now going to be a woman with her own title. Squirrel Girl is getting a new title. They are debuting a new Moon Girl series. They are debuting a new A-Force series, which is (I believe) Marvel's first all-female super team, basically the female Avengers.

I believe it's going to be a very good year for Marvel.

IMPress Polly
08-16-2015, 12:09 PM
Wow, I see what you mean, GA! That kind of swift and bold change reminds me a lot of this year's E3. :smiley: (I have to reference the things I'm familiar with, you know? :grin:) It sounds promising to me!

Hal Jordan
08-16-2015, 04:45 PM
`
LOL. I collect comic books, unfortunately can't read them all. Truth be told, I'm big on Thanos, Galactus, Warlock....your more cosmic entities.

I love the cosmic stories, myself.

Hal Jordan
08-16-2015, 04:58 PM
There's actually a revolution of sorts going on at Marvel. They are debuting an "all-new, all-different Marvel." X-23 will become the new Wolverine. Gwen Stacy is joining the regular Marvel Universe alongside Spider-Woman to add another major (and popular) female superhero to the Spider-Man universe, and she'll have her own title rather than just being a side character in Spider-Man's title. @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994) already mentioned Ms. Marvel. A character named Angela is getting her own title as Queen of Asgard's Hel. The new Blade is now going to be a woman with her own title. Squirrel Girl is getting a new title. They are debuting a new Moon Girl series. They are debuting a new A-Force series, which is (I believe) Marvel's first all-female super team, basically the female Avengers.

I believe it's going to be a very good year for Marvel.

Actually, Fearless Defenders was Marvel's first all-female super team, led by Valkyrie and Misty Knight, as far as I'm aware. There was also an all female team of X-Men in 2013, led by Storm, of course.

McCool
08-17-2015, 08:54 AM
Iron Man is, and always will be, my all time favorite....

kilgram
08-17-2015, 01:21 PM
There's actually a revolution of sorts going on at Marvel. They are debuting an "all-new, all-different Marvel." X-23 will become the new Wolverine. Gwen Stacy is joining the regular Marvel Universe alongside Spider-Woman to add another major (and popular) female superhero to the Spider-Man universe, and she'll have her own title rather than just being a side character in Spider-Man's title. Hal Jordan already mentioned Ms. Marvel. A character named Angela is getting her own title as Queen of Asgard's Hel. The new Blade is now going to be a woman with her own title. Squirrel Girl is getting a new title. They are debuting a new Moon Girl series. They are debuting a new A-Force series, which is (I believe) Marvel's first all-female super team, basically the female Avengers.

I believe it's going to be a very good year for Marvel.
Interesting. And DC?

I've never been able to get interested in the American superhero comics. I don't know why I don't like the drawing. I am going to have to stop at my reference comic store and definitively buy something.

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Green Arrow
08-17-2015, 03:53 PM
Interesting. And DC?

I've never been able to get interested in the American superhero comics. I don't know why I don't like the drawing. I am going to have to stop at my reference comic store and definitively buy something.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

You'll have to ask Hal Jordan about DC, I don't know nearly as much about DC as I do Marvel. The most I know about DC is they've always had the Amazons and the Birds of Prey.

Green Arrow
08-17-2015, 03:54 PM
Iron Man is, and always will be, my all time favorite....

I like Iron Man, but I'm not sure he makes it into my top 10. I'd have to reevaluate it to be sure. I know my top two are Thor and Captain America.

kilgram
08-17-2015, 04:18 PM
You'll have to ask Hal Jordan about DC, I don't know nearly as much about DC as I do Marvel. The most I know about DC is they've always had the Amazons and the Birds of Prey.
But you like Green Arrow ;)

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Green Arrow
08-17-2015, 04:48 PM
But you like Green Arrow ;)

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

Oh, there are several DC heroes I love and follow. I just don't follow the overall universe of DC as much as I follow Marvel.

southwest88
08-17-2015, 06:09 PM
...

Anyway yeah, I'm up for hearing about more good examples of female superheroes like you're suggesting! But hey, recognizing that I'm kind of in the dark about the details of the comics universe tbh, may I request a little explanation as to WHAT makes these examples you're mentioning good in your view? Just a request as kind of an outsider!

I'd suggest Major Motoko of Ghost in the Shell. Except I'm not sure she shows up much in comics as such. She does appear (originated?) in manga, the Japanese kinda comics. Except that they're much more free-wheeling than the US cousins. So there's that to consider.

However, the Major is tough as nails, cyborged, splendid hand-eye & proficient in all manner of stealth, attack, defense, tradecraft. She's very proficient @ diving into the 'Nets, & very lushly drawn & rendered. Her personal life may be lacking, but you can't beat her internal life.

She's a relatively recent addition to the proposed pantheon - but then, the tech base that could possibly give rise to her isn't all that old. I'm not sure she meets the criteria for superhero - however, she does drive herself right past any rational limits. Often enough, her body is in tatters by the time she's done - & sometimes incapacitated. Come to think of it, she reminds me of the Bruce Wayne/Batman Gestalt, except that she never takes off her body. So there's that.

kilgram
08-17-2015, 06:38 PM
I'd suggest Major Motoko of Ghost in the Shell. Except I'm not sure she shows up much in comics as such. She does appear (originated?) in manga, the Japanese kinda comics. Except that they're much more free-wheeling than the US cousins. So there's that to consider.

However, the Major is tough as nails, cyborged, splendid hand-eye & proficient in all manner of stealth, attack, defense, tradecraft. She's very proficient @ diving into the 'Nets, & very lushly drawn & rendered. Her personal life may be lacking, but you can't beat her internal life.

She's a relatively recent addition to the proposed pantheon - but then, the tech base that could possibly give rise to her isn't all that old. I'm not sure she meets the criteria for superhero - however, she does drive herself right past any rational limits. Often enough, her body is in tatters by the time she's done - & sometimes incapacitated. Come to think of it, she reminds me of the Bruce Wayne/Batman Gestalt, except that she never takes off her body. So there's that.
You're pretty fan of her, right :) ?

She's a great character. Truely.

By the way, it is true that in the manga there are many strong female characters. I would say that more than occidental world, at least, than until recently that there has been some incorporations.

Also, there are in the Japanese history more equality, because there have been many female samurais. And they had the same rights as men. (Even in general is very sexist, it is a curious trait of that culture).

southwest88
08-17-2015, 06:52 PM
You're pretty fan of her, right :) ?

She's a great character. Truely.

...


I'm a great admirer of the Major, certainly. Alas, given her proclivities & her career, I'm sure it would be much safer to admire her from afar, in real life. She's great fun to watch, although when someone actually gets close to defeating her, she becomes very grim. She typically mangles her body, in the attempt to overcome the odds.

I suppose she views her body as just a conveyance - but that's a tough attitude to take, even for her fans. Still, you have to admire someone that dedicated, that willing to go to the edge of the Abyss, for her professional & personal satisfaction. One of the terrifying character flaws that she manages to pull off - she's perfectly willing to take the hit for the team, if it means completing the mission.

kilgram
08-17-2015, 06:55 PM
I'm a great admirer of the Major, certainly. Alas, given her proclivities & her career, I'm sure it would be much safer to admire her from afar, in real life. She's great fun to watch, although when someone actually gets close to defeating her, she becomes very grim. She typically mangles her body, in the attempt to overcome the odds.

I suppose she views her body as just a conveyance - but that's a tough attitude to take, even for her fans. Still, you have to admire someone that dedicated, that willing to go to the edge of the Abyss, for her professional & personal satisfaction. One of the terrifying character flaws that she manages to pull off - she's perfectly willing to take the hit for the team, if it means completing the mission.
Well, do you go to manga events? If you do that, then you are otaku ;)

PS: I've not gone to any manga event in many years :-S. mmm next one is in October in my city, maybe I am going to stop there, and also to the comic store to update myself in that world :)

I've not been reading, watching many manga/anime ultimately. (Normally I watched an Anime daily -one episode- and read a manga).

Have you read/watched Planetes? Do you like science fiction?

By the way, going to the topic.

In DC world, now that I am guessing there are some superheroines that they have their own comics, the main is Wonderwoman and probably Supergirl.

Hal Jordan
08-17-2015, 07:54 PM
You'll have to ask @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994) about DC, I don't know nearly as much about DC as I do Marvel. The most I know about DC is they've always had the Amazons and the Birds of Prey.

DC tends to have some serious issues with their female characters. They keep getting into hot water with them, such as the whole Harley Quinn bathing suicide art contest... I'd say Marvel is leading the way with this, even if they do have the occasional issue...

southwest88
08-17-2015, 09:16 PM
Well, do you go to manga events? If you do that, then you are otaku ;)

...

Have you read/watched Planetes? Do you like science fiction?

By the way, going to the topic.

In DC world, now that I am guessing there are some superheroines that they have their own comics, the main is Wonderwoman and probably Supergirl.

No, I've been to a Science-Fiction convention - that was fun, & they had lots of vendors. It was a Star Trek Next Generation tie-in, the GOH was the actress who played Counselor Troi (Marina Sirtis?). She was very gracious, she did a mass photo shoot first thing, she invited everybody to take a picture & she struck a bunch of poses. I enjoyed the shorts - previews of animae movies, TV episodes in production. There was a fair amount of cosplay - people dressed up in character. Mostly animae or game characters, as I recall. Some of the cosplayers were very fetching.

No, haven't seen Planetes - I'll look for them, thanks. In animae, I mostly watch Ghost in the Shell related - seriously, there's a lot of it out there. Yes, I've read & still keep up on print sci-fi. There are some series in production, scheduled for this year - on SyFy channel - Armageddon Gate - that series. I'm waiting to see how that turns out.

How about yourself? Of the Europeans - I've read S. Lem, some of the Soviet writers. Capek, Verne, Wells - the older guys, I suppose. I don't know the current European SF writers - except the really famous ones out of UK. Is SF big in Europe these days?

southwest88
08-17-2015, 09:21 PM
On comics - @ the point that I was reading lots of comics - late '60s, early '70s - it seemed to me that Marvel's characters had more depth to them. Peter Parker (Spiderman) for instance - had girlfriend problems, money problems, job problems. & he scrambled to do his schoolwork (he was a nerdy kid), fight crime, & take care of his widowed aunt (they'd taken him in as a kid). Somewhere in there, he tried to squeeze in a social life, his pals. I think DC got the message & later developed more internal lives for their characters, but Marvel held the edge, early on.

Hal Jordan
08-17-2015, 10:36 PM
Well, do you go to manga events? If you do that, then you are otaku ;)

PS: I've not gone to any manga event in many years :-S. mmm next one is in October in my city, maybe I am going to stop there, and also to the comic store to update myself in that world :)

I've not been reading, watching many manga/anime ultimately. (Normally I watched an Anime daily -one episode- and read a manga).

Have you read/watched Planetes? Do you like science fiction?

By the way, going to the topic.

In DC world, now that I am guessing there are some superheroines that they have their own comics, the main is Wonderwoman and probably Supergirl.

There are a few female-centric DC titles. Last I knew, Supergirl didn't have one, but there was Batwoman, Batgirl, Wonder Woman had two, Starfire, Black Canary, Catwoman, and Harley Quinn (and another with her and Power Girl). Birds of Prey has its final issue this month. DC has problems portraying women, though. They also seem to have trouble keeping female staff members as well. They have had actions that drove great women on their staff away.

Here are a few articles that talk about some more recent controversies DC has had with women.

Harley Quinn bathtub suicide (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/123898-dc-releases-script-for-harley-quinn-contest-internet-outraged.html)

Superman does Wonder Woman and Batman's wife in training (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/129154-licensed-dc-comics-shirts-congratulate-superman-for-banging-wonder-woman-prepare-young-women-to-marry-batman.html)

Batgirl sexual victim cover (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/130927-dc-celebrates-success-of-batgirl-of-burnside-with-creepy-variant-cover-glorifying-sexual-victimization.html)

Hal Jordan
08-17-2015, 10:38 PM
I'd suggest Major Motoko of Ghost in the Shell. Except I'm not sure she shows up much in comics as such. She does appear (originated?) in manga, the Japanese kinda comics. Except that they're much more free-wheeling than the US cousins. So there's that to consider.

However, the Major is tough as nails, cyborged, splendid hand-eye & proficient in all manner of stealth, attack, defense, tradecraft. She's very proficient @ diving into the 'Nets, & very lushly drawn & rendered. Her personal life may be lacking, but you can't beat her internal life.

She's a relatively recent addition to the proposed pantheon - but then, the tech base that could possibly give rise to her isn't all that old. I'm not sure she meets the criteria for superhero - however, she does drive herself right past any rational limits. Often enough, her body is in tatters by the time she's done - & sometimes incapacitated. Come to think of it, she reminds me of the Bruce Wayne/Batman Gestalt, except that she never takes off her body. So there's that.

I wouldn't really call 1989 recent.

IMPress Polly
08-18-2015, 06:02 AM
Sorry for my silence everyone: I DO appreciate the helpful info that everyone is sharing! I'm just reading and taking notes because I don't really know all that many specifics about the world of comics at the end of the day, so don't have much meaningful commentary to offer at this point. Just so it's not thought that I'm ignoring this thread or anything like that. I'm paying close attention and learning a lot! I feel almost morally obliged to throw something else in here though, so I'll try:

Southwest mentioned Ghost in the Shell. Although I don't follow the manga (like I said, I haven't even set foot in a comic store in almost six months now), I have followed the movies and the two anime series and thoroughly enjoyed them! (Although honestly, the recent Ghost in the Shell: Arise TV series had some shortcomings compared the franchise's norm. Fortunately Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie made it worthwhile.)

As to comic book superheroes in general though, nearly 100% of my knowledge of that universe comes from films and video games, since I keep up with developments in those mediums and have never really gotten into superhero comics properly. The live-action superhero movies have been my main exposure to the worlds of Marvel and DC Comics. Truth be told, I've not been impressed. My disappointment includes gender politics, but goes much deeper than that. Overwhelmingly, these films are frankly objectively terrible, by which I mean that their storylines rarely even make sense, let alone carry any emotional weight or anything like that. The only two I've ever even basically liked were the first two Spider-Man movies from the early 2000s. I liked how they wove commentaries on social class sometimes literally and other times allegorically into the stories in particular. It made these films come off like how it might really be if there really was a superpowered person like that going out fighting crime. Such a character wouldn't likely be celebrated in the real world, but feared and rejected for how much more powerful (s)he is than the rest of us, and if such a character were moral, they would have to find a way of accepting that and living with it. People who attend these movies tend to imagine themselves in the position of the hero character, so these are basically power fantasies. Thus was the dynamic in the early 2000s Spider-Man films interesting to me in that it makes these people question the merits of those power fantasies. You see what I'm saying? I found those movies kind of interesting thought experiments in that sense. My least favorites have been the Batman and Iron Man films because they're pretty much just shameless celebrations of wealth and power.

In terms of the way women are portrayed in these film...:laugh::laugh::laugh: Haven't seen a decent portrayal yet. That subject is kind of a joke in my mind. They don't even try. (Or if they do, I can't tell.) Like in the aforementioned exemplary Spider-Man classics from the early 2000s, what in essence is our female star but a routine damsel in distress who of course winds up marrying the hero character? Occasionally, in films with large ensemble casts of heroes, there might be one or two female fighters. One for every five male ones or so anyway. Even they seem to be consistently portrayed as less capable and/or more romantically involved than their male counterparts though. So like I've said, my impression of the way the superhero genre treats women as much more of a cinephile than comic fan is...yeah, that's a joke, right?

Common
08-18-2015, 06:34 AM
Everyone has to understand that All comics were rooted in a totally different era Many decades ago.
Weve come along way since then and comics that were traditionally male super hero for 70 yrs are trying to update and incorporate female super heros. Give them credit for trying and give them space to screw up till they get it right. In the end its a step in the right direction

southwest88
08-18-2015, 10:54 AM
Everyone has to understand that All comics were rooted in a totally different era Many decades ago.
Weve come along way since then and comics that were traditionally male super hero for 70 yrs are trying to update and incorporate female super heros. Give them credit for trying and give them space to screw up till they get it right. In the end its a step in the right direction

The DC & Marvel comics are trying. But I think they're running scared, trying to come from behind. The comics as investment collapsed some time ago - 20 years? it seems like yesterday. & just as Japan stepped into the US domestic electronics & stereo & TV & VCR & DVD & autos & on & on - I think animae & their kindred are well-poised to do it again. (I think they have been doing it - taking over what was once largely a sole-domestic source of popular culture in the US since the 1980s. See Miyazaki, Japanimation on US TV, Hello Kitty - lots of individual topics there.)

Frankly, I think the US comics need the competition. My advice to them would be to go back to the groundbreaking graphic style that Marvel was working with in the 1960s, & go from there. Or be content to be the cutting edge of DisneyCorp, & occasionally prowl the cage & growl @ the people (cue the segment from xXx - http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=xxx+lion+in+a+cag&go=Submit+Query&qs=bs&form=QBVR#view=detail&mid=9E9AD819FF86C846FAA29E9AD819FF86C846FAA2

Captain Obvious
08-18-2015, 11:07 AM
So, what about the rise of the male superhero?

[INSERT PUNCHLINE HERE]

IMPress Polly
08-18-2015, 11:18 AM
Just about all my experience with the world of comics comes from reading various Archie Comics series: mainly Sonic the Hedgehog and related series, but also Sabrina the Teenage Witch and the NiGHTS Into Dreams mini-series in the distant past, and I've even dropped Sonic now. Back when I got started reading those various comics (started and ended with Sonic), the comics I saw from Marvel and DC Comics didn't really seem geared for me at all. They were clearly boy's comics specifically. Archie came off to me as the most women-and-children-friendly brand. However, I haven't kept close tabs on anything outside the Archie universe. Green Arrow and Hal Jordan seem to have the most knowledge of the comic book scene, as they seem to be the ones really keeping up with it here, and what they've said makes sense to me: it does sound like Marvel is really making the effort to be more inclusive and empowering and DC Comics...not so much. I can appreciate that nuance.

kilgram
08-18-2015, 11:41 AM
Just about all my experience with the world of comics comes from reading various Archie Comics series: mainly Sonic the Hedgehog and related series, but also Sabrina the Teenage Witch and the NiGHTS Into Dreams mini-series in the distant past, and I've even dropped Sonic now. Back when I got started reading those various comics (started and ended with Sonic), the comics I saw from Marvel and DC Comics didn't really seem geared for me at all. They were clearly boy's comics specifically. Archie came off to me as the most women-and-children-friendly brand. However, I haven't kept close tabs on anything outside the Archie universe. Green Arrow and Hal Jordan seem to have the most knowledge of the comic book scene, as they seem to be the ones really keeping up with it here, and what they've said makes sense to me: it does sound like Marvel is really making the effort to be more inclusive and empowering and DC Comics...not so much. I can appreciate that nuance.
For what I know DC comics have groups like the Avengers of Marvel but with only women and they also have female supervillain groups if I am not mistaken. DC world from my understanding is pretty different from Marvel. But yes, is mainly formed by men. Batman, Superman... But there are people like hawkgirl...

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kilgram
08-18-2015, 06:18 PM
Well, I was asked about European comic. I don't know much of the European comic. There are some comics that are quite successful in USA that are from Spain, however the protagonist is an antropomorphic cat without any superpowers and it is interesting from his drawing. It is the comic called "Blacksad" of Juanjo Guarnido.

It is a comic with many classic topics of the black novel. If you are into that genre that is an interesting comic.

Nice offtopic :)

kilgram
08-18-2015, 07:01 PM
I forgot to mention that other important European comics and very traditional would be Lucky Luke, Asterix, Tintin, XIII (that in 2000s a videogame was done of it).

But, in the European comic most of the protagonists are male and the European comic has a tendency to realism and humour, depending of the genre.

In Europe the most important productor of comics would be Belgium with collaboration of France.

The truth, is that I don't like most of the titles mentioned except for Asterix.

PS: When I was young I read some Spanish comics that were "Capitan Trueno" and "Jabato". Both explained stories in Mediaeval times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Jabato
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitán_Trueno

Hal Jordan
08-18-2015, 08:02 PM
For what I know DC comics have groups like the Avengers of Marvel but with only women and they also have female supervillain groups if I am not mistaken. DC world from my understanding is pretty different from Marvel. But yes, is mainly formed by men. Batman, Superman... But there are people like hawkgirl...

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

So far, the only all female superhero group DC has had was Birds of Prey. As far as I'm aware, the closest they have to an all female supervillain group is the Female Furies, who serve Darkseid, who is male. On the other hand, Caroline LeFay, a villain from Marvel, created her own group with only women, without any man in charge of her.