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View Full Version : tPF California agency votes to ban SeaWorld orca breeding



Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:02 PM
AP

The California Coastal Commission approved a $100 million expansion of the tanks SeaWorld (http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/SEAS) uses to hold killer whales in San Diego—but it banned breeding of the captive orcas that would live in them.
Animal rights activists praised Thursday's decision as a death blow to the use of killer whales at the California ocean park.
The vote "ensures that no more orcas will be condemned to a nonlife of loneliness, deprivation and misery," said a statement from People from the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"These 11 orcas would be the last 11 orcas there," PETA lawyer Jared Goodman said after the meeting, referring to the whales at the California marine park.
The last-minute amendment would ban breeding of captive orcas, including through artificial insemination, at the California park but not at SeaWorld facilities in other states.
It also prohibits the sale, trade or transfer of captive orcas. The amendment does provide a potential exemption for certain whales caught in the wild but it wasn't immediately clear whether that applied to any of the orcas at the San Diego park.

In a statement, SeaWorld said it was disappointed by the conditions attached to the approval of its "Blue World" expansion, set to open in 2018, which would triple the size of existing killer whale enclosures.


"Breeding is a natural, fundamental and important part of an animal's life and depriving a social animal of the right to reproduce is inhumane," the park said.
The panel's decision raised an array of questions, including whether the company would proceed with the project or raise a legal challenge, possibly on whether the commission overstepped its authority. SeaWorld said it was considering its options.
The vote followed a daylong hearing during which dozens of speakers argued for and against expansion. Although the permit involved a request to expand tank space, the discussion evolved into a wide-ranging debate over the conditions in captivity for the huge marine mammals, including breeding and the use of pharmaceuticals.
The commission that regulates land and water use along the California coast attached several conditions to the approval, including that no new whales from the wild will be kept there. SeaWorld says it hasn't captured wild orcas in more than 30 years.
Attendance at the California park has declined since the release of the population documentary "Blackfish" in 2013, which suggests SeaWorld's treatment of captive orcas provokes violent behavior. The company's stock price also has dropped over the past two years.
At the meeting, SeaWorld veterinarian Hendrik Nollens disputed what he called "outlandish accusations" from critics of the park. The whales are enriched and stimulated, he said, not stressed or depressed.

"We care for these animals as if they were family," Nollens told the panel. "We have nothing but the whales' best interest at heart."
Animal rights activists said the new tanks would only lead to more captivity for orcas.
John Hargrove, a former SeaWorld trainer in California and Texas who has written a book about his experiences and appeared in the "Blackfish" film, said whales are heavily medicated and family structures that define life in the wild are broken.
The whales gnaw the edges of their pools, breaking or wearing teeth, and inbreeding has created "hybrid orcas who have no true social identity," he said.
About 500 people filled the meeting room to capacity, roughly divided between SeaWorld supporters wearing blue and white shirts and holding signs saying, "Educate, Inspire, Conserve," and critics waving signs saying "Vote no on SeaWorld Tanks" and "SeaWorld hurts Orcas."
Coastal Commissioner Gregory Cox, who favored the expansion, said it would be a good thing to increase the size of the orcas' habitat.

But Commissioner Dayna Bochco, who brought up the no-breeding amendment, said she agreed with scientists who believe that the killer whales are suffering in captivity.
"They don't belong in captivity," she said.
Under the expansion, SeaWorld would demolish portions of a 1995 facility that included a 1.7-million gallon pool and replace it with a 5.2-million gallon tank and 450,000-gallon pool.
The Orlando, Florida-based company had said the orca population at the San Diego facility would not significantly increase due to the "Blue World" project.

California agency votes to ban SeaWorld orca breeding (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/california-agency-votes-to-ban-seaworld-orca-breeding.html)

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:03 PM
I saw this over the weekend and nearly forgot about it. This is great news and is just one step closer to eventually eliminating Orcas in captivity. The parks in Texas and Florida will hopefully be next to have limitations like this but i'm sure it will be a long haul.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:07 PM
Too bad. Those Orcas do a lot to teach people about conservation.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:09 PM
My favorite part of the counter argument is when they say that breeding is a "natural, fundamental and important part of an animal's life and depriving a social animal of the right to reproduce is inhumane." That's hard to take seriously when they are forced to perform for humans for food and praise, their family units are separated and shipped across the country, and they live their life in basically a bathtub....yes that's soooooo natural and fundamental. Having them breed so that you can make a profit is not natural and IS inhumane.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:10 PM
Too bad. Those Orcas do a lot to teach people about conservation.

They still can

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:11 PM
They still can

The Orcas are the draw..

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:13 PM
The Orcas are the draw..

That's our fault, not theirs. Conservation and education does not need to be at the expense of a beautiful animal's freedom. We can do a better job of teaching about these animals along with marine ecosystems without inhumane practices and certainly without an Orca show where they are performing tricks for food. Thats not natural and it's not real conservation, it's a business.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:15 PM
That's our fault, not theirs. Conservation and education does not need to be at the expense of a beautiful animal's freedom. We can do a better job of teaching about these animals along with marine ecosystems without inhumane practices and certainly without an Orca show where they are performing tricks for food. Thats not natural and it's not real conservation, it's a business.

If you say so. Ultimately though, less people will now know about conservation and orcas...

jimmyz
10-13-2015, 07:18 PM
I always hated seeing their dorsal fin flopped over to one side. In the wild its straight up and powerful looking. Their body is literally saying, " I hate this and my fin is telling you that!". That in itself puts me on the anti Orca captivity side. Dolphins?

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:19 PM
If you say so. Ultimately though, less people will now know about conservation and orcas...

Who's fault is that though? Orcas are my absolute favorite animal, but I didn't need to see them perform in a show at Sea World for me to appreciate them and want to protect them. I've seen them in the wild and i've seen them at Sea World and once you see them in the wild and then go to Sea World you just get it, I can't explain it. If less people know about Orcas then that's an acceptable trade off to me if it means less exploitation of them.

Adelaide
10-13-2015, 07:20 PM
The Orcas are the draw..

Then take a boat tour in Vancouver or Seattle. SeaWorld is inhumane in its treatment of the animals.

This is good news, that someone is finally saying they can't continue with what they're doing.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:22 PM
I always hated seeing their dorsal fin flopped over to one side. In the wild its straight up and powerful looking. There body is literally saying, " I hate this and my fin is telling you that!". That in itself puts me on the anti Orca captivity side. Dolphins?

Orcas are actually in the dolphin family but I know what you mean :)

Any animal forced to perform and exploited for profit in my opinion is in need of advocacy.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:24 PM
Then take a boat tour in Vancouver or Seattle. SeaWorld is inhumane in its treatment of the animals.

This is good news, that someone is finally saying they can't continue with what they're doing.

Exactly. Here's a thought, see them in their NATURAL ENVIRONMENT and not a swimming pool next to a roller coaster. You can learn as much if not more by going to their home, watching them, and talking to experts in the field. A show with them waiving to the crowd is not real education, even if they slip in some facts in between jumps.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:27 PM
Who's fault is that though? Orcas are my absolute favorite animal, but I didn't need to see them perform in a show at Sea World for me to appreciate them and want to protect them. I've seen them in the wild and i've seen them at Sea World and once you see them in the wild and then go to Sea World you just get it, I can't explain it. If less people know about Orcas then that's an acceptable trade off to me if it means less exploitation of them.

But SeaWorld is fighting to conserve these animals and see them not exploited in the oceans where the most damage occurs. If 11 orcas helps people understand them better and the trade off is that they are held in captivity then to me that's a greater good.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:28 PM
Then take a boat tour in Vancouver or Seattle. SeaWorld is inhumane in its treatment of the animals.

This is good news, that someone is finally saying they can't continue with what they're doing.

And everyone can just take a flight to the PAC NW and see an orca? SeaWorld has never been accused of being in humane except by the people who want to see all of these animals euthanized.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:28 PM
Exactly. Here's a thought, see them in their NATURAL ENVIRONMENT and not a swimming pool next to a roller coaster. You can learn as much if not more by going to their home, watching them, and talking to experts in the field. A show with them waiving to the crowd is not real education, even if they slip in some facts in between jumps.

That simply isn't possible and I think you know it.

jimmyz
10-13-2015, 07:29 PM
I suggest everyone interested in this subject watch 'Black Fish'.

jimmyz
10-13-2015, 07:31 PM
That simply isn't possible and I think you know it.

A couple Orca documentaries shown to people on Imax would give them more than a 20 minute show at Sea World getting the first few rows wet.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:32 PM
A couple Orca documentaries shown to people on Imax would give them more than a 20 minute show at Sea World getting the first few rows wet.

Is everyone here ok with ignoring the research and conservation that comes out of SeaWorld?

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:34 PM
But SeaWorld is fighting to conserve these animals and see them not exploited in the oceans where the most damage occurs. If 11 orcas helps people understand them better and the trade off is that they are held in captivity then to me that's a greater good.

Many many other marine animal protection organizations are fighting to protect and conserve Orcas along with many other marine animals right now, and they are doing it without exploiting them for entertainment and profit. The greater good does not require the sacrifice of 11 or more Orcas, the greater good requires Sea World to sacrifice it's exploitation in order to truly appreciate and protect the species. Sea World does a lot of good things with marine rescue efforts and the vast majority of the time the animal is rehabbed and released back into the wild, that is protection and conservation. They need to divorce themselves of the inhumane aspect of their organization that contradicts all of their good efforts in my opinion. It is NOT necessary to keep and breed captive Orcas for entertainment, even if it's wrapped in a veil of so-called education and conservation.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:35 PM
That simply isn't possible and I think you know it.

It's as possible as flying to Orlando, San Diego or San Antonio and then buying hotel rooms and park tickets is it not?

Common Sense
10-13-2015, 07:35 PM
Zoos and places like Seaworld claim to be educational, but the reality is that they're not. They're multimillion dollar businesses.

There are much more effective ways to educate.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:35 PM
Is everyone here ok with ignoring the research and conservation that comes out of SeaWorld?

No, but ignoring the inhumane side of their conservation efforts a lot of people do seem ok with.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:37 PM
And everyone can just take a flight to the PAC NW and see an orca? SeaWorld has never been accused of being in humane except by the people who want to see all of these animals euthanized.

They have to take a flight to California, Texas or Florida to go to Sea World and so why not to Washington, Oregon or BC?

and I don't want to see any of the animals euthanized.

Adelaide
10-13-2015, 07:42 PM
And everyone can just take a flight to the PAC NW and see an orca? SeaWorld has never been accused of being in humane except by the people who want to see all of these animals euthanized.

People fly to Florida and other locations just for attractions like SeaWorld. They certainly can do the same to take a damn boat tour. Maybe it would be more of an attraction if they put a McDonald's on every boat.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:43 PM
Many many other marine animal protection organizations are fighting to protect and conserve Orcas along with many other marine animals right now, and they are doing it without exploiting them for entertainment and profit. The greater good does not require the sacrifice of 11 or more Orcas, the greater good requires Sea World to sacrifice it's exploitation in order to truly appreciate and protect the species. Sea World does a lot of good things with marine rescue efforts and the vast majority of the time the animal is rehabbed and released back into the wild, that is protection and conservation. They need to divorce themselves of the inhumane aspect of their organization that contradicts all of their good efforts in my opinion. It is NOT necessary to keep and breed captive Orcas for entertainment, even if it's wrapped in a veil of so-called education and conservation.

Where do you think the money comes from for all of that education and conservation.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:43 PM
People fly to Florida and other locations just for attractions like SeaWorld. They certainly can do the same to take a damn boat tour. Maybe it would be more of an attraction if they put a McDonald's on every boat.

We both know that won't happen.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:43 PM
People fly to Florida and other locations just for attractions like SeaWorld. They certainly can do the same to take a damn boat tour. Maybe it would be more of an attraction if they put a McDonald's on every boat.

It's silly to me that people argue that it's too hard to see them in the wild. With a little bit of research it's not that hard and it's probably a lot cheaper than a week long day vacation to Orlando where you probably won't just go to Sea World.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:44 PM
They have to take a flight to California, Texas or Florida to go to Sea World and so why not to Washington, Oregon or BC?

and I don't want to see any of the animals euthanized.

Well thats what they are purporting. Releasing them would in effect euthanize them.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:45 PM
No, but ignoring the inhumane side of their conservation efforts a lot of people do seem ok with.

I don't see what is inhumane...

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:45 PM
It's as possible as flying to Orlando, San Diego or San Antonio and then buying hotel rooms and park tickets is it not?

No given that SeaWorld provides more than just Orcas.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:45 PM
Where do you think the money comes from for all of that education and conservation.

They can still make enough money with their theme parks to fund a robust marine protection organization, most organizations rely on donations and still are out in the field protecting and studying Orcas. They may have to scale back some in some areas but sacrificing entertainment for the betterment of marine species is worth it.

Bob
10-13-2015, 07:46 PM
I saw this over the weekend and nearly forgot about it. This is great news and is just one step closer to eventually eliminating Orcas in captivity. The parks in Texas and Florida will hopefully be next to have limitations like this but i'm sure it will be a long haul.

The Orcas love where they are. I saw this on the news last week I think it was. I feel sorry the Orcas can't breed.

CA is a truly sick state.

I saw Orcas at Marine World and they swam in a small tank from the looks of it. Those I felt bad for. Animals that size need more room.

Just learned Marine World is now 6 flags park. I last visited around 1988. Not my cup of tea.

I notice they feature dolphins. Maybe the whales were removed.

https://www.sixflags.com/discoverykingdom

At one point the park was located at Redwood shores, not far from San Francisco. Vallejo is quite a drive from here or from San Francisco.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:46 PM
No given that SeaWorld provides more than just Orcas.

Then they should be able to survive without the Orca shows and captivity.

PolWatch
10-13-2015, 07:46 PM
I think there are better sources/methods of education than pinning up such magnificent animals. When they train them to behave in abnormal ways for entertainment is not educational....its big business.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:47 PM
The Orcas love where they are. I saw this on the news last week I think it was. I feel sorry the Orcas can't breed.

CA is a truly sick state.

I saw Orcas at Marine World and they swam in a small tank from the looks of it. Those I felt bad for. Animals that size need more room.

Just learned Marine World is now 6 flags park. I last visited around 1988. Not my cup of tea.

I notice they feature dolphins. Maybe the whales were removed.

https://www.sixflags.com/discoverykingdom

At one point the park was located at Redwood shores, not far from San Francisco. Vallejo is quite a drive from here or from San Francisco.

Orcas belong in the wild, not the equivalent to a bath tub

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:47 PM
Then they should be able to survive without the Orca shows and captivity.

They will and the Orcas will be worse off for it.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:48 PM
Well thats what they are purporting. Releasing them would in effect euthanize them.

They don't have to release them totally into the wild. They can release them in a marine sanctuary where they can still be watched and helped if needed.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:48 PM
I think there are better sources/methods of education than pinning up such magnificent animals. When they train them to behave in abnormal ways for entertainment is not educational....its big business.

That funds their research and conservation.

jimmyz
10-13-2015, 07:49 PM
The Orcas love where they are. I saw this on the news last week I think it was. I feel sorry the Orcas can't breed.

CA is a truly sick state.

I saw Orcas at Marine World and they swam in a small tank from the looks of it. Those I felt bad for. Animals that size need more room.

Just learned Marine World is now 6 flags park. I last visited around 1988. Not my cup of tea.

I notice they feature dolphins. Maybe the whales were removed.

https://www.sixflags.com/discoverykingdom

At one point the park was located at Redwood shores, not far from San Francisco. Vallejo is quite a drive from here or from San Francisco.

My favorite show was the water ski and boat stunt show there when I lived in Redwood City in the 70's.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:49 PM
They don't have to release them totally into the wild. They can release them in a marine sanctuary where they can still be watched and helped if needed.

Who will pay for it?

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:49 PM
They will and the Orcas will be worse off for it.

You have nothing to back that up though. The fact is that Sea World is a business first and foremost. They are one of many organizations that work in marine conservation but they are the only ones that exploit for profit the species they claim to protect.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:49 PM
Who will pay for it?

Sea World, and im sure other organizations would go in with them if it meant ending their inhumane treatment.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:50 PM
Sea World, and im sure other organizations would go in with them if it meant ending their inhumane treatment.

Yeah and Mexico is going to build a border wall...

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:51 PM
I don't see what is inhumane...

They are being bred to entertain us while being kept alive in pools that would be the equivalent of you living in a small bathtub.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:52 PM
Yeah and Mexico is going to build a border wall...

Sometimes you have to sacrifice something of yours for someone else. In this case Sea World needs to sacrifice a chunk of their profit and a big chunk of their ego for the species they claim to protect.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:52 PM
They are being bred to entertain us while being kept alive in pools that would be the equivalent of you living in a small bathtub.

They are being bred to fund education and conservation... We see it differently...

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:53 PM
Sometimes you have to sacrifice something of yours for someone else. In this case Sea World needs to sacrifice a chunk of their profit and a big chunk of their ego for the species they claim to protect.

Good luck with that. SeaWorld is an entity that needs to stay in business. The business of conservation and education.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:54 PM
They are being bred to fund education and conservation... We see it differently...

No I disagree, first and foremost they are bred to make profit. The conservation aspect of it is secondary and is more of a marketing campaign than conservation. They work they do with true marina animal rescue is worthwhile, but a stadium is built for one thing and one thing only, to entertain for profit.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:54 PM
Good luck with that. SeaWorld is an entity that needs to stay in business. The business of conservation and education.

How many marine protection organizations build roller coasters and charge admission?

Redrose
10-13-2015, 07:55 PM
I saw this over the weekend and nearly forgot about it. This is great news and is just one step closer to eventually eliminating Orcas in captivity. The parks in Texas and Florida will hopefully be next to have limitations like this but i'm sure it will be a long haul.


I loved going to SeaWorld, it was the only place where we could see whales up close. My oldest daughter was picked to have one orca 'kiss here face' with its tongue, back in 1980.

Beautiful animals. They are very well cared for, but I do see how it could be cruel depriving them of their natural life in the ocean.

Those in captivity do serve a good purpose helping with their study, and with conservation. So I have mixed emotions on the subject.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:57 PM
I loved going to SeaWorld, it was the only place where we could see whales up close. My oldest daughter was picked to have one orca 'kiss here face' with its tongue, back in 1980.

Beautiful animals. They are very well cared for, but I do see how it could be cruel depriving them of their natural life in the ocean.

Those in captivity do serve a good purpose helping with their study, and with conservation. So I have mixed emotions on the subject.

I can promise you there are many other places you can go to see an Orca or species of whales in the wild, and you do not need to pay admission into a theme park and watch a show in a stadium to do it.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:58 PM
You have nothing to back that up though. The fact is that Sea World is a business first and foremost. They are one of many organizations that work in marine conservation but they are the only ones that exploit for profit the species they claim to protect.

What do you mean I have nothing to back it up? I have your article. I have common sense. Less people will see these animals and as such less awareness will be had. Pretty simple math.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:58 PM
I can promise you there are many other places you can go to see an Orca or species of whales in the wild, and you do not need to pay admission into a theme park and watch a show in a stadium to do it.

Not really... Not like you can at SeaWorld. Up close and personal.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:59 PM
What do you mean I have nothing to back it up? I have your article. I have common sense. Less people will see these animals and as such less awareness will be had. Pretty simple math.

and you are assuming that Sea World can't change their business model? You assume that people will just have to stay home and never see a whale in their lifetime even though they can and with less effort than it is to travel to CA or FL if you aren't from those states.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 07:59 PM
How many marine protection organizations build roller coasters and charge admission?

Which one is the biggest and does the most?

Chloe
10-13-2015, 07:59 PM
Not really... Not like you can at SeaWorld. Up close and personal.

You do not have to be kissed by it to appreciate it or understand it

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:00 PM
and you are assuming that Sea World can't change their business model? You assume that people will just have to stay home and never see a whale in their lifetime even though they can and with less effort than it is to travel to CA or FL if you aren't from those states.

You think SeaWorld is entertainment based...I disagree... Their business model will change in that their research and conservation of Orcas will suffer...

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:01 PM
You do not have to be kissed by it to appreciate it or understand it

You do if you're little..To start that kind of relationship early is huge.

jimmyz
10-13-2015, 08:02 PM
I've never seen a Great White shark up close. Doesn't mean I want to see one swimming in circle in a fish tank.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:02 PM
Which one is the biggest and does the most?

Sea World is just one of many organizations, many which are worldwide, and does not do the most for cetacean protection. Oceana, Ocean Conservancy, the WDC, WWF, and sooooo many more.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:03 PM
You do if you're little..To start that kind of relationship early is huge.

My relationship didn't start that way and neither did a lot of people that want to protect these animals from harm and exploitation.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:04 PM
Sea World is just one of many organizations, many which are worldwide, and does not do the most for cetacean protection. Oceana, Ocean Conservancy, the WDC, WWF, and sooooo many more.

You didn't answer my question though.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:05 PM
You think SeaWorld is entertainment based...I disagree... Their business model will change in that their research and conservation of Orcas will suffer...

There are other organizations doing what Sea World does and more and they do it without the shows and without the marketing and without the inhumane living situation and without the roller coasters and popcorn. Maybe Sea World needs to shrink a little for its own good and for the good of the marine life it exploits while protecting.

Bob
10-13-2015, 08:05 PM
It's silly to me that people argue that it's too hard to see them in the wild. With a little bit of research it's not that hard and it's probably a lot cheaper than a week long day vacation to Orlando where you probably won't just go to Sea World.

I don't think i am wrong, but given all of your advantages, what is reasonable in your eyes is impossible for a lot of people. A lot of them just get there once in a blue moon and save for a long time for the treat.

Why not ask the visitors rather than you or CA making up new laws?

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:05 PM
My relationship didn't start that way and neither did a lot of people that want to protect these animals from harm and exploitation.

So?

We won't agree that the whales are being exploited so to me that's just hyperbole.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:06 PM
You didn't answer my question though.

Sea World is not the biggest nor does it do the most for cetacean conservation

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:06 PM
So?

We won't agree that the whales are being exploited so to me that's just hyperbole.

How are they not being exploited? They are being used as a means of entertainment. How is that not exploitation? Do you work for Sea World?

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:07 PM
Sea World is not the biggest nor does it do the most for cetacean conservation

Who is?

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:08 PM
How are they not being exploited? They are being used as a means of entertainment. How is that not exploitation? Do you work for Sea World?

Sigh...easy there...don't go Bob on me...

How can the orcas be exploited if the proceeds go to orca conservation?

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:09 PM
I don't think i am wrong, but given all of your advantages, what is reasonable in your eyes is impossible for a lot of people. A lot of them just get there once in a blue moon and save for a long time for the treat.

Why not ask the visitors rather than you or CA making up new laws?

My family's wealth in comparison does not make the purchase of an airline ticket, a hotel room, a ticket to the park, the food in the park, and so on any less expensive for all the people going to sea world parks. If they spent the same amount to go to Washington and do a whale tour they would probably spend less and actually see a whale in the wild.

Bob
10-13-2015, 08:09 PM
I've never seen a Great White shark up close. Doesn't mean I want to see one swimming in circle in a fish tank.

California monterey Aquarium has had the Great White in their tank. Usually they show them for a few weeks, let it go and get another. The Great White only lives so long in their enormous tank.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:10 PM
Who is?

Oceana is the largest ocean protection organization

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:11 PM
Sigh...easy there...don't go Bob on me...

How can the orcas be exploited if the proceeds go to orca conservation?

Sorry i'm getting worked up

the proceeds go towards roller coasters, advertising, snacks, merchandise, equipment and so on as well, probably the majority of it

Bob
10-13-2015, 08:14 PM
My family's wealth in comparison does not make the purchase of an airline ticket, a hotel room, a ticket to the park, the food in the park, and so on any less expensive for all the people going to sea world parks. If they spent the same amount to go to Washington and do a whale tour they would probably spend less and actually see a whale in the wild.

You see very little of a whale in the wild. No, your family wealth gives you the attitude the poor don't have. They can't fly across country so you don't see Orcas in the tanks.

TV showed us the other day Orca's actually bond with the people working with them.

Redrose
10-13-2015, 08:14 PM
I can promise you there are many other places you can go to see an Orca or species of whales in the wild, and you do not need to pay admission into a theme park and watch a show in a stadium to do it.


Well, as far as I know there is no place in the East. I would say most of the country has no opportunity to see them in the wild. Also, taking little kids on a boatride to see whales in their natural habitat is not practical.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:15 PM
You see very little of a whale in the wild. No, your family wealth gives you the attitude the poor don't have. They can't fly across country so you don't see Orcas in the tanks.

TV showed us the other day Orca's actually bond with the people working with them.

But the poor can fly to CA, TX or FL get a hotel room and then buy admission into a theme park to see them? Oh, and Orcas bond better with their family unit, but that's before they get separated for the rest of their lives and sent to Texas or Florida or wherever else.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:16 PM
Well, as far as I know there is no place in the East. I would say most o the country has no opportunity to see them in the wild. Also, taking little kids on a boatride to see whales in their natural habitat is not practical.

Sure it is, it's just as practical as going on a vacation to Orlando and going through airports, hotels and theme parks.

Bob
10-13-2015, 08:16 PM
Sigh...easy there...don't go Bob on me...

How can the orcas be exploited if the proceeds go to orca conservation?

This is pure bullshit for you to sling my name in there as you just did.

Make your own points.

When it comes to wildlife, she goes off the rails.

Peter1469
10-13-2015, 08:20 PM
Notice: Bob thread banned at the request of the OP.

Matty
10-13-2015, 08:21 PM
Is everyone here ok with ignoring the research and conservation that comes out of SeaWorld?



I'm sorry. I'm with the Orca on this one. They need an ocean not a pool.

Captain Obvious
10-13-2015, 08:21 PM
I'm sorry. I'm with the Orca on this one. They need an ocean not a pool.

Agreed. Sea World is not, by far, a charity.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:24 PM
I'm sorry. I'm with the Orca on this one. They need an ocean not a pool.

Ultimately in my opinion it's picking sides. You can't really be for Orcas if you are for the company that exploits them for entertainment. Being for Orcas through advocacy of Sea World basically says that Sea World is the benefactor of Orcas and are allowed to be inhumane to some in order to protect the ones they can't remove from the wild anymore.

Matty
10-13-2015, 08:25 PM
At the same time every animal in Sea world needs to be released. They have those beautiful white Beluga whales too. They like the ocean.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:26 PM
I'm sorry. I'm with the Orca on this one. They need an ocean not a pool.

Well the vast majority of them are in the ocean.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:26 PM
At the same time every animal in Sea world needs to be released. They have those beautiful white Beluga whales too. They like the ocean.

Released responsibly though. Marine sanctuaries for the ones born and conditioned in captivity for example.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:26 PM
Well the vast majority of them are in the ocean.

except for the sacrificial lambs

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:26 PM
At the same time every animal in Sea world needs to be released. They have those beautiful white Beluga whales too. They like the ocean.

You release them you kill them.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:28 PM
except for the sacrificial lambs

And their life is hardly worthless given the thousands and thousands of people they touch every year.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:30 PM
Notice: Bob thread banned at the request of the OP.

I'm sorry Bob but making my parent's income a part of the topic and then escalating that argument with private pickle is too distracting for a topic that i'm heavily interested in.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:31 PM
And their life is hardly worthless given the thousands and thousands of people they touch every year.

and they absolutely can do the same without being held in captivity

Adelaide
10-13-2015, 08:31 PM
They are being bred to fund education and conservation... We see it differently...

That's the company line - not the reality.

Adelaide
10-13-2015, 08:32 PM
Good luck with that. SeaWorld is an entity that needs to stay in business. The business of conservation and education.

That's the business of animal torture for entertainment.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:33 PM
That's the business of animal torture for entertainment.

Exactly. They get their profits through the forced entertainment of their captive marine life.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:35 PM
and they absolutely can do the same without being held in captivity

You cannot compare the experiences. You just can't.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 08:35 PM
I need a food break. Be nice.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:36 PM
That's the business of animal torture for entertainment.

Torture? Really?

Its this kind of vernacular that makes it impossible for you to see both sides of the story.

Matty
10-13-2015, 08:37 PM
What about all the other big Aquariums across the US, like the one in Atlanta. Shouldn't they be shut down too?

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:40 PM
Exactly. They get their profits through the forced entertainment of their captive marine life.

24,000 animals rescued and rehabitated. The latest, a grey whale named JJ, was rescued and cared for for 14 months before being released.

Captain Obvious
10-13-2015, 08:41 PM
I need a food break. Be nice.

Go for the sushi

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:42 PM
What about all the other big Aquariums across the US, like the one in Atlanta. Shouldn't they be shut down too?

Dont forget about Zoos.

Matty
10-13-2015, 08:44 PM
Then they should be able to survive without the Orca shows and captivity.


If they should not exploit Orcas to stay afloat financially then they should not exploit any animal and that should apply to any zoo and acquarium large or small in the U.S.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:48 PM
If they should not exploit Orcas to stay afloat financially then they should not exploit any animal and that should apply to any zoo and acquarium large or small in the U.S.

Not to mention horses, hunting dogs, trained Falcons, donkies, sheep, cows, chickens, etc etc.

We are talking about 11 whales here that were bred in captivity. If not for SeaWorld these whales would not exist. Now that is gone and the whales in the oceans will suffer as a result.

Matty
10-13-2015, 08:56 PM
Not to mention horses, hunting dogs, trained Falcons, donkies, sheep, cows, chickens, etc etc.

We are talking about 11 whales here that were bred in captivity. If not for SeaWorld these whales would not exist. Now that is gone and the whales in the oceans will suffer as a result.



I know, I am just saying I have sympathy for the whales. They are huge animals and shouldn't be held in a pool when they have oceans. Think of all the birds that live out their lives in cages. They weren't given life to live in a cage, they're born to fly. At the same time, I am saying if that applies to the Orca in Sea World it should apply to all captive animals. If you cannot justify one then you shouldn't even try justifying the other. Then, you must be honest and realize how many humans this will put out of work, because you are right, these big whales are the draw.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 08:59 PM
I know, I am just saying I have sympathy for the whales. They are huge animals and shouldn't be held in a pool when they have oceans. Think of all the birds that live out their lives in cages. They weren't given life to live in a cage, they're born to fly. At the same time, I am saying if that applies to the Orca in Sea World it should apply to all captive animals. If you cannot justify one then you shouldn't even try justifying the other. Then, you must be honest and realize how many humans this will put out of work, because you are right, these big whales are the draw.
It's not just about jobs or entertainment. It's about education and conservation.

Matty
10-13-2015, 09:04 PM
It's not just about jobs or entertainment. It's about education and conservation.


It is all entertwined. I am telling you that you are correct. Sea World without the whales will probably not generate enough money to do their conservation and education. Still, the whales deserve to live the life they were born for so we give up the conservation and education.

texan
10-13-2015, 09:21 PM
I would like to vote california nut land out.

Chloe
10-13-2015, 09:25 PM
I would like to vote california nut land out.

Thats not the topic

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 11:11 PM
Thats not the topic

Look. All I am saying is that we are talking about 11 whales. While these whales don't live natural lives neither do humans. But they serve an amazing purpose. They accomplish more than the wild orcas given they interact with their human counterparts. They have been bred and raised in captivity which means their existence is owed to SeaWorld.

With all that they do we pity them. I say we should honor them. Look at them differently. Don't shame them for being captive rather celebrate them for the gift they give us.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 11:18 PM
This is pure bullshit for you to sling my name in there as you just did.

Make your own points.

When it comes to wildlife, she goes off the rails.

Oh I made my point and it was an effective one as shown here.... Gnight Bob. Don't forget your geritol and hatred before bed.

Private Pickle
10-13-2015, 11:19 PM
I would like to vote california nut land out.

Out of what?

Adelaide
10-16-2015, 12:21 PM
Not to mention horses, hunting dogs, trained Falcons, donkies, sheep, cows, chickens, etc etc.

We are talking about 11 whales here that were bred in captivity. If not for SeaWorld these whales would not exist. Now that is gone and the whales in the oceans will suffer as a result.

You're right that it's probably too late for whales already being held captive. Most of them never learned how to survive in the wild and will be unable to learn to do so sufficiently.

Does that really mean that we should allow SeaWorld and others to breed them further and commit more cruelty towards the animals for human entertainment? Entertainment, not education. Majority of the things they tell you during shows are complete fucking lies. There is also a reason why OHSA has had to mandate that trainers not enter the pools, among other restrictions - the animals are dangerous when captive. That has been proven. In the wild they get curious and might bump your ship but in captivity they'll drag you down, break your bones, deprive you of oxygen and chew you up like a play toy.

Private Pickle
10-16-2015, 03:58 PM
You're right that it's probably too late for whales already being held captive. Most of them never learned how to survive in the wild and will be unable to learn to do so sufficiently.

Does that really mean that we should allow SeaWorld and others to breed them further and commit more cruelty towards the animals for human entertainment? Entertainment, not education. Majority of the things they tell you during shows are complete fucking lies. There is also a reason why OHSA has had to mandate that trainers not enter the pools, among other restrictions - the animals are dangerous when captive. That has been proven. In the wild they get curious and might bump your ship but in captivity they'll drag you down, break your bones, deprive you of oxygen and chew you up like a play toy.

Hmmm then you think the whales know the difference between being in captivity and in the wild? Even if they were bred in the wild?

Mister D
10-16-2015, 04:04 PM
Who's fault is that though? Orcas are my absolute favorite animal, but I didn't need to see them perform in a show at Sea World for me to appreciate them and want to protect them. I've seen them in the wild and i've seen them at Sea World and once you see them in the wild and then go to Sea World you just get it, I can't explain it. If less people know about Orcas then that's an acceptable trade off to me if it means less exploitation of them.

Did you know that Orcas have a documented history of killing for sport? Maybe they are a little too human to keep in captivity.

Chloe
10-16-2015, 07:12 PM
If they should not exploit Orcas to stay afloat financially then they should not exploit any animal and that should apply to any zoo and acquarium large or small in the U.S.

I'm happy that you think that way. I don't disagree with you that no animal should be exploited.

Chloe
10-16-2015, 07:13 PM
Did you know that Orcas have a documented history of killing for sport? Maybe they are a little too human to keep in captivity.

We can only control our own behavior, we can't control theirs, and what they do in the wild is just that, the wild.

Chloe
10-16-2015, 07:15 PM
It is all entertwined. I am telling you that you are correct. Sea World without the whales will probably not generate enough money to do their conservation and education. Still, the whales deserve to live the life they were born for so we give up the conservation and education.

If dozens of other reputable and successful conservation organizations can do it then so can Sea World. These are all just excuses.

Chloe
10-16-2015, 07:18 PM
Dont forget about Zoos.

I used to want to work at a zoo until I took a tour of one with one of the curators and listened to him refer to the animals there as "stock" and "inventory." After that and along with some other observations and comments the shine started to ware off.

valley ranch
10-16-2015, 07:23 PM
Do the Japanese eat Orcas?

Chloe
10-16-2015, 07:24 PM
Do the Japanese eat Orcas?

I don't know but they certainly have no qualms with illegal whaling

Private Pickle
10-16-2015, 08:13 PM
I used to want to work at a zoo until I took a tour of one with one of the curators and listened to him refer to the animals there as "stock" and "inventory." After that and along with some other observations and comments the shine started to ware off.

So you don't think you're strong enough to change from within? You don't think that person was a dying breed and that you're the new generation? Shame on you.

silvereyes
10-18-2015, 02:36 AM
The Orcas love where they are. I saw this on the news last week I think it was. I feel sorry the Orcas can't breed.

CA is a truly sick state.

I saw Orcas at Marine World and they swam in a small tank from the looks of it. Those I felt bad for. Animals that size need more room.

Just learned Marine World is now 6 flags park. I last visited around 1988. Not my cup of tea.

I notice they feature dolphins. Maybe the whales were removed.

https://www.sixflags.com/discoverykingdom

At one point the park was located at Redwood shores, not far from San Francisco. Vallejo is quite a drive from here or from San Francisco.
This is the dumbest thing posted ever. They love captivity? Dear god.

silvereyes
10-18-2015, 02:47 AM
Not to mention horses, hunting dogs, trained Falcons, donkies, sheep, cows, chickens, etc etc.

We are talking about 11 whales here that were bred in captivity. If not for SeaWorld these whales would not exist. Now that is gone and the whales in the oceans will suffer as a result.

What do you mean they wouldnt exist? You dont think they would have mated in the ocean....where they are supposed to and notin a tank being watched?

Adelaide
10-18-2015, 09:12 AM
Hmmm then you think the whales know the difference between being in captivity and in the wild? Even if they were bred in the wild?

I think they know they're prisoners in a swimming pool and that it goes against their nature not to be with their natural packs/family. Scientists have shown that they have natural instincts towards certain social behaviours and living in artificial families in a swimming pool is not something supported by their instincts even if it is all they've ever known.

So yeah, I think they know instinctively that it's not right.

Peter1469
10-18-2015, 09:34 AM
Pods. They swim with groups called pods (http://www.defenders.org/orca/basic-facts).


I think they know they're prisoners in a swimming pool and that it goes against their nature not to be with their natural packs/family. Scientists have shown that they have natural instincts towards certain social behaviours and living in artificial families in a swimming pool is not something supported by their instincts even if it is all they've ever known.

So yeah, I think they know instinctively that it's not right.

Adelaide
10-18-2015, 10:11 AM
Pods. They swim with groups called pods (http://www.defenders.org/orca/basic-facts).

Thanks. The right word wasn't coming to me.

Private Pickle
10-18-2015, 11:05 AM
What do you mean they wouldnt exist? You dont think they would have mated in the ocean....where they are supposed to and notin a tank being watched?

They were bred in captivity.

Private Pickle
10-18-2015, 11:07 AM
I think they know they're prisoners in a swimming pool and that it goes against their nature not to be with their natural packs/family. Scientists have shown that they have natural instincts towards certain social behaviours and living in artificial families in a swimming pool is not something supported by their instincts even if it is all they've ever known.

So yeah, I think they know instinctively that it's not right.

Then they must know we stopped allowing them to breed. I bet they are thankful for that. You?

Adelaide
10-18-2015, 01:31 PM
Then they must know we stopped allowing them to breed. I bet they are thankful for that. You?

The whales bred in captivity are spread around to other aquariums. They hardly ever remain with their actual family. Not when they can be sold to other facilities for quite a lot of money.

Private Pickle
10-18-2015, 01:31 PM
The whales bred in captivity are spread around to other aquariums. They hardly ever remain with their actual family. Not when they can be sold to other facilities for quite a lot of money.

You didn't answer my question.

Adelaide
10-19-2015, 09:23 AM
You didn't answer my question.

I doubt they'll notice anything different without the forced insemination. They'll still be in foreign pods with foreign creatures in a swimming pool too small for them. They'll know it's not right, and they'll be a threat to the trainers, partly because of breeding practices that already introduced almost every whale in the entertainment circuit to the genetic make-up of the most violent Orca (Tilikum).

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 09:42 AM
I doubt they'll notice anything different without the forced insemination. They'll still be in foreign pods with foreign creatures in a swimming pool too small for them. They'll know it's not right, and they'll be a threat to the trainers, partly because of breeding practices that already introduced almost every whale in the entertainment circuit to the genetic make-up of the most violent Orca (Tilikum).

So even though they are bred in captivity they know their situation is wrong so let's stop them from mating because they will understand its for their own good?

Uh huh.

Chloe
10-19-2015, 11:23 AM
So even though they are bred in captivity they know their situation is wrong so let's stop them from mating because they will understand its for their own good?

Uh huh.

Instinct

also, mating is natural for orcas and is obviously important for sustaining the species, however, the mating in this case is not to sustain the species but to sustain the shows. Sex is natural but performing stunts for an audience and then going back to their holding pen is certainly not. Their freedom, or at least the end of their exploitation, is more important for those whales and for the species than their ability to mate. What would you prefer? Forced to perform for the rest of your life for the circus, living in a closet, with the ability to mate or freedom and a natural life?

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 11:25 AM
Instinct

also, mating is natural for orcas and is obviously important for sustaining the species, however, the mating in this case is not to sustain the species but to sustain the shows. Sex is natural but performing stunts for an audience and then going back to their holding pen is certainly not. Their freedom, or at least the end of their exploitation, is more important for those whales and for the species than their ability to mate. What would you prefer? Forced to perform for the rest of your life for the circus, living in a closet, with the ability to mate or freedom and a natural life?

They can't have freedom as they would perish in the natural. So at least they get to screw!

Chloe
10-19-2015, 11:27 AM
They can't have freedom as they would perish in the natural. So at least they get to screw!

Again though, releasing them isn't just a drop them in the ocean and walk away thing. There are sanctuaries and ways to monitor their health. We put them in the exploited and inhumane situation that they are in and so it's our responsibility, mainly sea worlds, to make it right even if it's hard or takes time.

silvereyes
10-19-2015, 11:31 AM
They were bred in captivity.

So, that doesnt mean they wouldnt exist if theyre parents were still in the ocean.....where they belong.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 12:38 PM
Again though, releasing them isn't just a drop them in the ocean and walk away thing. There are sanctuaries and ways to monitor their health. We put them in the exploited and inhumane situation that they are in and so it's our responsibility, mainly sea worlds, to make it right even if it's hard or takes time.

It just seems to me you believe these animals have rights and then you turn around and knowingly take them away. Fundamentally that flaw weds to be accounted for.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 12:39 PM
So, that doesnt mean they wouldnt exist if theyre parents were still in the ocean.....where they belong.

Wut?

Chloe
10-19-2015, 02:08 PM
It just seems to me you believe these animals have rights and then you turn around and knowingly take them away. Fundamentally that flaw weds to be accounted for.

Yeah you're going to have to explain that one please

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 02:17 PM
Yeah you're going to have to explain that one please

Youre taking rights away from the orcas they had before.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 02:19 PM
The right to be prisoners?

Chloe
10-19-2015, 02:42 PM
Youre taking rights away from the orcas they had before.In your words: wut?

jimmyz
10-19-2015, 03:06 PM
If breeding rights have been taken away won't Sea World just capture young Orcas in the wild to supply the parks?

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 03:12 PM
If breeding rights have been taken away won't Sea World just capture young Orcas in the wild to supply the parks?

Doubtful. They've had a lot of negative press about those practices.

If they did do that, it would mean a ton of bad publicity.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:34 PM
In your words: wut?

Well if they know they are in captivity and they know that's bad how do you think they will now feel about not being able to procreate and raise babies? Do you think they will be happy they no longer have that right because they know it's for their own good?

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:36 PM
If breeding rights have been taken away won't Sea World just capture young Orcas in the wild to supply the parks?

In some cases where the animal cannot be released back into the wild however; SeaWorld is world renowned for their rescue and rehabilitation programs.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:36 PM
Well if they know they are in captivity and they know that's bad how do you think they will now feel about not being able to procreate and raise babies? Do you think they will be happy they no longer have that right because they know it's for their own good?

They don't procreate at Seaworld. They are artificially inseminated.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:36 PM
They don't procreate at Seaworld. They are artificially inseminated.

It's both.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:37 PM
In some cases where the animal cannot be released back into the wild however; SeaWorld is world renowned for their rescue and rehabilitation programs.

one of those animals could be released back into the wild.

Seaworld is not world renowned for their rescue and rehab programs.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:39 PM
one of those animals could be released back into the wild.

Seaworld is not world renowned for their rescue and rehab programs.

OK...

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:39 PM
OK...

They're not.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:42 PM
They're not.

They are. It's been linked in this thread.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:43 PM
Not that many would read it, but this was written by a former Orca trainer at Sea World.

https://www.thedodo.com/seaworld-orcas-breeding-program-1204136610.html

Chloe
10-19-2015, 04:44 PM
Well if they know they are in captivity and they know that's bad how do you think they will now feel about not being able to procreate and raise babies? Do you think they will be happy they no longer have that right because they know it's for their own good?

Im sorry but you are crossing over into an argument that I can't take seriously. Their instincts are suppressed by captivity, their freedom is suppressed by captivity, their family units are displaced because of captivity, their movement is confined because of captivity, and yet your focus is on the restriction that sea world can't let them procreate? Keep in mind that sea world controlled their ability and inability to procreate before this new law and based on numbers it's not like they are having Orca orgies resulting in captive or a population booms. The inability for sea world to increase their inventory of orcas means that it will be much harder for sea world to continue to use living, captive creatures as a means of entertainment and profit. The "pleasure" of sex and procreation for them is not a sincere argument considering their living conditions in comparison to wild orcas.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:44 PM
They are. It's been linked in this thread.

I'd like to see that. Does the link go to their own site?

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:45 PM
Im sorry but you are crossing over into an argument that I can't take seriously. Their instincts are suppressed by captivity, their freedom is suppressed by captivity, their family units are displaced because of captivity, their movement is confined because of captivity, and yet your focus is on the restriction that sea world can't let them procreate? Keep in mind that sea world controlled their ability and inability to procreate before this new law and based on numbers it's not like they are having Orca orgies resulting in captive or a population booms. The inability for sea world to increase their inventory of orcas means that it will be much harder for sea world to continue to use living, captive creatures as a means of entertainment and profit. The "pleasure" of sex and procreation for them is not a sincere argument considering their living conditions in comparison to wild orcas.

I think you're missing my point. Doesn't matter.

Private Pickle
10-19-2015, 04:46 PM
I'd like to see that. Does the link go to their own site?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaWorld

Im officially done with this thread.

Common Sense
10-19-2015, 04:48 PM
http://www.orcaaware.org/uploads/1/3/7/1/13714375/9035185.png?1384473063

silvereyes
10-20-2015, 12:26 PM
Not that many would read it, but this was written by a former Orca trainer at Sea World.

https://www.thedodo.com/seaworld-orcas-breeding-program-1204136610.html

Even better look up what flippers catcher/trainer said and did later.

silvereyes
10-20-2015, 11:53 PM
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1973486,00.html