PDA

View Full Version : Fundamental Differences Between Christian Denominations



AZFlyFisher
09-05-2012, 06:27 PM
I got into a discussion with someone on another forum who claims it's a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today."

What do you all think?

wingrider
09-05-2012, 06:36 PM
I disagree,, the core belief of any christian is summed up by :

The main beliefs of Christians comes from the NT Scriptures:

First is: John 3.16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

To follow that : John 14.6: "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John 11.25: "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live"

And then theres: Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."


also Paul states this:

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
(1 Thessalonians 4:14–17)

Captain Obvious
09-05-2012, 06:52 PM
And this is where AZ indirectly ridicules you by saying that he doesn't believe in ghosts.

... just saving you the trouble.

Bait thread all the way.

wingrider
09-05-2012, 07:20 PM
And this is where AZ indirectly ridicules you by saying that he doesn't believe in ghosts.

... just saving you the trouble.



Bait thread all the way.

I think this could be a good discussion if certain criteria is met.. 1 being no insults pertaining to beliefs and 2 back up your beliefs with logical and substantiated proofs

AZFlyFisher
09-05-2012, 07:22 PM
And this is where AZ indirectly ridicules you by saying that he doesn't believe in ghosts.

... just saving you the trouble.

Bait thread all the way.

Not at all. I believe there are fundamental differences. Just look at Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants.

Captain Obvious
09-05-2012, 07:25 PM
I think this could be a good discussion if certain criteria is met.. 1 being no insults pertaining to beliefs and 2 back up your beliefs with logical and substantiated proofs

OK.

AZ just replied, if he brings a good discussion to the table, I'll apologize to him.

wingrider
09-05-2012, 07:28 PM
Not at all. I believe there are fundamental differences. Just look at Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants.
those differences are really minor, they are based on legalism for one instead of grace, the bottom line is anyone who believes Christ paid for their sin debt and believes that God raised him from the dead then that person is a christian,, all the other differences are just window dressing for the particular denomination

roadmaster
09-05-2012, 08:43 PM
Not at all. I believe there are fundamental differences. Just look at Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants.

Christians follow Christ.

JohnAdams
09-06-2012, 12:03 AM
I think this could be a good discussion if certain criteria is met.. 1 being no insults pertaining to beliefs and 2 back up your beliefs with logical and substantiated proofs

There's a problem with your very premise right from the start. That being one cannot substantiate the faith of another person.

And yet a belief in God any belief in God, requires a human being to have faith. You simply cannot have one without the other, in fact you cannot substantiate the existence of God himself either.

No one can point to a photo or video or hold a news conference and say "there's God for ya", no one can point to some science and say "there's God for ya" (and if one does um they're a liar do not be deceived because one's life, one's very soul in fact could literally depend upon it) so we have to have faith first, to have a belief in God.

wingrider
09-06-2012, 12:09 AM
There's a problem with your very premise right from the start. That being one cannot substantiate the faith of another person.

And yet a belief in God any belief in God, requires a human being to have faith. You simply cannot have one without the other, because to my knowledge only one man has ever seen God while still in this life and he's not here today. actually 3 men

Adam. Moses, and Christ.

I guess it would depend on the source of the information wouldn't it.. For us Christians the only " proof" we have of God is found in Scripture..unless you count Nature itself the vastness of the universe and the complexites of Life.. if you discount the written word then of course you are correct,, we cannot prove the existance of God nor why we have faith, but then again that is why it is called faith and not theory.

Mister D
09-06-2012, 07:46 AM
those differences are really minor, they are based on legalism for one instead of grace, the bottom line is anyone who believes Christ paid for their sin debt and believes that God raised him from the dead then that person is a christian,, all the other differences are just window dressing for the particular denomination

Indeed, they are. AZ can't seem to understand that.

Mister D
09-06-2012, 07:46 AM
AZ, feeling silly? :laugh:

GCF
09-06-2012, 09:17 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by wingrider http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=123644#post123644)
those differences are really minor, they are based on legalism for one instead of grace, the bottom line is anyone who believes Christ paid for their sin debt and believes that God raised him from the dead then that person is a christian,, all the other differences are just window dressing for the particular denomination


Yea, I'm sure the Catholics like to look at the Pope as "Window Dressing". Yet I would have to assume that the idea of a Pope is a complete basterdzation of the Bible itself but that is me, oh an a whole bunch of Protestants!

AZFlyFisher
09-06-2012, 06:15 PM
AZ, feeling silly? :laugh:

Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

roadmaster
09-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

Satan in NOT Jesus brother. Anyone can call themselves a Christian but only the ones who follow Christ are.

wingrider
09-06-2012, 06:29 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Yea, I'm sure the Catholics like to look at the Pope as "Window Dressing". Yet I would have to assume that the idea of a Pope is a complete basterdzation of the Bible itself but that is me, oh an a whole bunch of Protestants!
agreed, The pope does not have the authority to forgive sin,, only God can do that,, the very idea of asking a man to forgive you of sin is contrary to scripture.

roadmaster
09-06-2012, 06:33 PM
agreed, The pope does not have the authority to forgive sin,, only God can do that,, the very idea of asking a man to forgive you of sin is contrary to scripture.

Agree, you can profess a sin to a priest or pastor but only God can forgive.

Deadwood
09-06-2012, 06:42 PM
Not at all. I believe there are fundamental differences. Just look at Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants.

Hate to break this to you AX, but wingrider is right. Those three fundamentals are core to not only the faiths you mentioned, but all Christians sects. What separates us is stupid shirt, like whether we sing from hymnals or from an overhead, whether Communion is the real flesh of Christ or a rite/tribute in HIS name.

The problem you seem to have is in the word "fundamental".....


And yes, Cap, bait thread all the way.....

Deadwood
09-06-2012, 06:45 PM
Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

Please cite a specific on that. I say it's complete unadulterated bullshit and extremely obscure theology, far from fundamental.

Please look up the word.

wingrider
09-06-2012, 06:45 PM
Agree, you can profess a sin to a priest or pastor but only God can forgive.
why waste time with the middle man.. " for we have an advocate to the Father, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ"

shaarona
09-06-2012, 06:59 PM
Please cite a specific on that. I say it's complete unadulterated bullshit and extremely obscure theology, far from fundamental.

Please look up the word.

here you go:

http://bible-truth.org/jesusbro.htm

Its not what I think, but there is a certain logic to it.

roadmaster
09-06-2012, 07:03 PM
why waste time with the middle man.. " for we have an advocate to the Father, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ"

I don't I only go to the source but I guess some feel like getting things out to another person. I always talk to the Master only.

wingrider
09-06-2012, 10:06 PM
here you go:

http://bible-truth.org/jesusbro.htm

Its not what I think, but there is a certain logic to it.

Lucifer was a created being and the Third archangel of Heaven. to believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers is a complete distortion of Gods Word,, for One it Negates John 3:16 and it denies Isaiah 14 and also Ezekiel 28.


13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.



14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.



15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

lets also look at John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-1/)
2 The same was in the beginning with God. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-2/)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-3/)
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-4/)
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-5/)


so if you read the text,, Jesus is the actual creator of everything including the Angels which means that Lucifer was created by Jesus.. therefore it is impossible for Jesus and Lucifer to be brothers

GCF
09-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

That is a Mormon thing, the ones in public eye will deny it but yes the mormons do believe that, at least it is a part of their historical teachings. Yet it is not a Christian belief in any manner. Lucifer was an Angel, it is a specific difference then man.

shaarona
09-06-2012, 10:50 PM
Lucifer was a created being and the Third archangel of Heaven. to believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers is a complete distortion of Gods Word,, for One it Negates John 3:16 and it denies Isaiah 14 and also Ezekiel 28.


13

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.



14

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.



15

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

lets also look at John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-1/)
2 The same was in the beginning with God. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-2/)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-3/)
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-4/)
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-5/)


so if you read the text,, Jesus is the actual creator of everything including the Angels which means that Lucifer was created by Jesus.. therefore it is impossible for Jesus and Lucifer to be brothers





Do you take the Bible literally?

roadmaster
09-06-2012, 11:29 PM
Do you take the Bible literally?

Why don't we ask you a question? Do you even believe?

shaarona
09-06-2012, 11:33 PM
Why don't we ask you a question? Do you even believe?

You mean am I a Cristian.. Yes. Its important to me.

roadmaster
09-07-2012, 12:21 AM
You mean am I a Cristian.. Yes. Its important to me.

Just asked reading back at your history on here. And yes Abraham was a Hebrew.
AND it's Christian. Abraham followed Jesus. And yes I do take the Bible literally.

GCF
09-07-2012, 01:45 AM
Just asked reading back at your history on here. And yes Abraham was a Hebrew.
AND it's Christian. Abraham followed Jesus. And yes I do take the Bible literally.

Problematic to take it literally, some of the people do. Yet when you get into stories like Bable or Jonah and being swallow by a fish then its not really advisable. Kind of hard to explain how a man can be swallow by a fish and come out alive sometime later! That is like putting a boulder in front of many if you insist one has to take it literally, which IMHO isn't a good thing (speaking as you actually want to win people over). With many you loose the ability to really have a good conversation, if they are looking at you like a nutcase. Honestly, I'm not sure if any mainline church insist on the "Literall" translation except for the Church/Assembly (Pentacostal) of God and maybe the Primitive Babtist churches. Yet the Lord in the NT use parables alot why wouldn't he use them in the OT? Just makes more sense that way.

Hebrews came from Abraham, Abraham wasn't a Hebrew no such thing at the time, well I guess he would be consider the first. Yet his handmaiden child Ismeul (spelling) would of been the birth of the Muslim People. Basically this would represent the cradle of mankind or close to it, however one wants to distinguish it.

shaarona
09-07-2012, 03:43 AM
Just asked reading back at your history on here. And yes Abraham was a Hebrew.
AND it's Christian. Abraham followed Jesus. And yes I do take the Bible literally.


How could Abraham have been a Hebrew? There were none yet.. He was a friend of God. See James 2:23.

And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 08:04 AM
Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

You're actually talking about a tiny minority. :smiley:

Mister D
09-07-2012, 08:07 AM
Hate to break this to you AX, but wingrider is right. Those three fundamentals are core to not only the faiths you mentioned, but all Christians sects. What separates us is stupid shirt, like whether we sing from hymnals or from an overhead, whether Communion is the real flesh of Christ or a rite/tribute in HIS name.

The problem you seem to have is in the word "fundamental".....


And yes, Cap, bait thread all the way.....

Exactly.

GCF
09-07-2012, 09:58 AM
Not at all. Why would I?

Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.

Yea but there is alot more trolls on the internet! In fact I don't know any "Christian" Religion that would accept the idea of Satan an Jesus as brothers, kind of goes against the whole Bible Teaching! Unitarians? Do they even believe in God???

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 12:20 PM
You're actually talking about a tiny minority. :smiley:

There are over a billion Catholics, 14 million Mormons, over 400,000 Unitarians, and about 350,000 Christian Scientists.

Next you will say the Pope isn't important to Catholics and Mormons really don't need Joseph Smith.


:confused5:


fun·da·men·tal   [fuhn-duh-men-tl] [/URL] Show IPA
adjective1.serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation orbasis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; thefundamental structure.

2.of, pertaining to, or affecting the foundation or basis: afundamental revision.

3.being an original or [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/primary+source"]primary source (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html): a fundamental idea.

4.Music . (of a chord) having its root (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/root) as its lowest note.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 12:44 PM
There are over a billion Catholics, 14 million Mormons, over 400,000 Unitarians, and about 350,000 Christian Scientists.

Next you will say the Pope isn't important to Catholics and Mormons really don't need Joseph Smith.


:confused5:


fun·da·men·tal

   [fuhn-duh-men-tl] Show IPA
adjective1.serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation orbasis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; thefundamental structure.

2.of, pertaining to, or affecting the foundation or basis: afundamental revision.

3.being an original or primary source (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/primary+source): a fundamental idea.

4.Music . (of a chord) having its root (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/root) as its lowest note.





We aren't talking about Catholics, bumpkin. You said:


Many Christians, including the Republican Presidential nominee, believe Satan is Jesus' brother. That's fundamental.

Maybe you've never heard of Nontrinitarianism? Christian Scientists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians? We're not talking about some little snake handling church in the Ozarks, but lots and lots of Christians with fundamental differences in their belief about Christ himself.



Again, the fundamentals ("the foundation, the original primary source" :laugh:) of the vast majority of Christians sects are the same.

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 12:50 PM
We aren't talking about Catholics, bumpkin. You said:



Again, the fundamentals ("the foundation, the original primary source" :laugh:) of the vast majority of Christians sects are the same.

But you claim it is a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today."

Don't try to change the subject. Your statement is obviously false.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 12:51 PM
But you claim it is a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today."

Don't try to change the subject. Your statement is obviously false.

:laugh: I am correct. Again, you don't seem to understand what is fundamental. Granted, you aren't a Christian and you aren't particualrly bright either so this is to be expected.

Poor AZ. He came here hoping to cause trouble but he got bitch slapped yet again. :kiss:

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 01:23 PM
:laugh: I am correct. Again, you don't seem to understand what is fundamental. Granted, you aren't a Christian and you aren't particualrly bright either so this is to be expected.

Poor AZ. He came here hoping to cause trouble but he got bitch slapped yet again. :kiss:


Not at all. You, however, have put the mental in fundamental.

Add a pope or another prophet as a core part of your religion and you have changed your fundamental belief.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 01:28 PM
Not at all. You, however, have put the mental in fundamental.

Add a pope or another prophet as a core part of your religion and you have changed your fundamental belief.

What other prophet? :laugh: Are you babbling about Mormons again? Even if I were to concede that they are Christians they, as well the other sects you mentioned, are a tiny minority.

The Pope is not fundamental. It's eccesiastical (look it up, Cletus). Christ is fundamental. That's true for both Catholics and Protestants as well as Eastern Orthodox who together comprise the vast majority of the world's Christians.

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 01:53 PM
eccesiastical? :laugh: Look up the spelling while you try to determine it's meaning.

Catholics believe the Pope is Jesus' representative on earth. Hardly just an ecclesiastical difference. It's extremely fundamental.

I suppose now you will also claim Catholics are a tiny minority.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 01:58 PM
eccesiastical? :laugh: Look up the spelling while you try to determine it's meaning.

Catholics believe the Pope is Jesus' representative on earth. Hardly just an ecclesiastical difference. It's extremely fundamental.

I suppose now you will also claim Catholics are a tiny minority.


I've reduced AZ to attacking typos!
:smiley_ROFLMAO:

Yeah? And? :laugh: The Pope is not Jesus. The Pope is not divine. No one believes anything like that.

Why does this atheist simpleton feel compelled to tell Christians what they believe?

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 02:13 PM
I've reduced AZ to attacking typos!
:smiley_ROFLMAO:

Yeah? And? :laugh: The Pope is not Jesus. The Pope is not divine. No one believes anything like that.

Why does this atheist simpleton feel compelled to tell Christians what they believe?

I thought it was hilarious you asked me to look up a word you couldn't spell.



The Catholic Council of Trent in 1545 declared this:We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world.i (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotei)
In the same century, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine stated this:
All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.ii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteii)
In 1895 an article from the Catholic National said this:
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.iii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteiii)

Further Quotes from Vatican Documents show the Papacy's belief in Papal Infallibility:He [the Pope] can pronounce sentences and judgments in contradiction to the rights of nations, to the law of God and man...He can free himself from the commands of the apostles, he being their superior, and from the rules of the Old Testament...The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.v (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotev)
In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II:
Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman,thou art finally another God on earth (emphasis added).vi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevi)
The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:
To believe that our Lord God the Popehas not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical (emphasis added).vii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevii)
And speaking about the same document, Father A. Pereira said this:
It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title "Lord God the Pope" for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII.viii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteviii)
Papal documents also say this:
Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods (emphasis added).ix (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteix)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-FRGd6VGHN-c/Td6pYX9Ar3I/AAAAAAAABEk/p1-Hk98lALU/Benedict-hat-Pope.jpg?imgmax=288
The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth (emphasis added).x (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotex)
The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...The Pope alone is called most holy...Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, asking of heaven and of earth and of hell. Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertains only to heavenly things, but also earthly things, and to things under the earth, and even over the angels, whom he his greater than. So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith,they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power (emphasis added).xi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotexi)

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus

Mister D
09-07-2012, 02:19 PM
I thought it was hilarious you asked me to look up a word you couldn't spell.



The Catholic Council of Trent in 1545 declared this:We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world.i (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotei)
In the same century, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine stated this:
All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.ii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteii)
In 1895 an article from the Catholic National said this:
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.iii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteiii)

Further Quotes from Vatican Documents show the Papacy's belief in Papal Infallibility:

He [the Pope] can pronounce sentences and judgments in contradiction to the rights of nations, to the law of God and man...He can free himself from the commands of the apostles, he being their superior, and from the rules of the Old Testament...The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.v (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotev)
In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II:
Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman,thou art finally another God on earth (emphasis added).vi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevi)
The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:
To believe that our Lord God the Popehas not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical (emphasis added).vii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevii)
And speaking about the same document, Father A. Pereira said this:
It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title "Lord God the Pope" for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII.viii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteviii)
Papal documents also say this:
Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods (emphasis added).ix (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteix)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-FRGd6VGHN-c/Td6pYX9Ar3I/AAAAAAAABEk/p1-Hk98lALU/Benedict-hat-Pope.jpg?imgmax=288
The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth (emphasis added).x (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotex)
The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...The Pope alone is called most holy...Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, asking of heaven and of earth and of hell. Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertains only to heavenly things, but also earthly things, and to things under the earth, and even over the angels, whom he his greater than. So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith,they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power (emphasis added).xi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotexi)

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus


:rofl:Amazingdiscoveries.org Are you amazed, AZ?

"Rekindling the Reformation". :laugh:

AZ, you just don't care do you? You'll just post crap from anywhere! That explains your last link to a Jihadist website.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 02:25 PM
Folks, this was the last source AZ used. It's no wonder he gets misleading information about Christianity...
:grin:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm


http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac_banner.gif

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 02:29 PM
:rofl:Amazingdiscoveries.org Are you amazed, AZ?

"Rekindling the Reformation". :laugh:

AZ, you just don't care do you? You'll just post crap from anywhere! That explains your last link to a Jihadist website.

Ad hom is all you have now. It's obvious. You're denial of fundamental differences between denominations fell apart and so you resort to this.

There wouldn't be so many different denominations if there weren't fundamental differences.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 02:31 PM
Ad hom is all you have now. It's obvious. You're denial of fundamental differences between denominations fell apart and so you resort to this.

There wouldn't be so many different denominations if there weren't fundamental differences.

I resort to what? Wondering why you'll go just go anywhere and believe anything? :pointlaugh:

No, if there were so many fundamental differences they would be differebnt religions! :laugh:

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 02:47 PM
I resort to what? Wondering why you'll go just go anywhere and believe anything? :pointlaugh:

No, if there were so many fundamental differences they would be differebnt religions! :laugh:


They might as well be different religions, since they are so fundamentally different.


Folks, Mister D has only one source for most of the information (opinion) he posts:

432

Mister D
09-07-2012, 02:48 PM
They might as well be different religions, since they are so fundamentally different.


Folks, Mister D has only one source for most of the information (opinion) he posts:

432

But they're not different religions, AZ. I wonder why!? :laugh:

wingrider
09-07-2012, 02:52 PM
I thought it was hilarious you asked me to look up a word you couldn't spell.



The Catholic Council of Trent in 1545 declared this:We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world.i (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotei)
In the same century, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine stated this:
All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.ii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteii)
In 1895 an article from the Catholic National said this:
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.iii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteiii)

Further Quotes from Vatican Documents show the Papacy's belief in Papal Infallibility:

He [the Pope] can pronounce sentences and judgments in contradiction to the rights of nations, to the law of God and man...He can free himself from the commands of the apostles, he being their superior, and from the rules of the Old Testament...The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.v (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotev)
In 1512 Christopher Marcellus said this to Pope Julius II:
Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman,thou art finally another God on earth (emphasis added).vi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevi)
The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:
To believe that our Lord God the Popehas not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical (emphasis added).vii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotevii)
And speaking about the same document, Father A. Pereira said this:
It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title "Lord God the Pope" for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII.viii (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteviii)
Papal documents also say this:
Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods (emphasis added).ix (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnoteix)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-FRGd6VGHN-c/Td6pYX9Ar3I/AAAAAAAABEk/p1-Hk98lALU/Benedict-hat-Pope.jpg?imgmax=288
The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth (emphasis added).x (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotex)
The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...The Pope alone is called most holy...Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, asking of heaven and of earth and of hell. Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertains only to heavenly things, but also earthly things, and to things under the earth, and even over the angels, whom he his greater than. So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith,they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power (emphasis added).xi (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus#footnotexi)

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus
I noticed a couple of things here... first it was by a council of MEN.. that this authority was given to the POPE,, LMAO.. No where in scripture did Jesus ever give away his divinity to a mortal..

number two this is what the reformation was all about, people learned what the Bible actually said and knew the Church was lying out of its collective ass.

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 02:57 PM
I noticed a couple of things here... first it was by a council of MEN.. that this authority was given to the POPE,, LMAO.. No where in scripture did Jesus ever give away his divinity to a mortal..

number two this is what the reformation was all about, people learned what the Bible actually said and knew the Church was lying out of its collective ass.

So you agree there are fundamental differences between Catholics and other Christians?

Mister D
09-07-2012, 02:59 PM
I noticed a couple of things here... first it was by a council of MEN.. that this authority was given to the POPE,, LMAO.. No where in scripture did Jesus ever give away his divinity to a mortal..

number two this is what the reformation was all about, people learned what the Bible actually said and knew the Church was lying out of its collective ass.

Catholics don't believe that, Wing. If you want to know what Catholics believe, ask a Catholic. :wink:

wingrider
09-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Catholics don't believe that, Wing. If you want to know what Catholics believe, ask a Catholic. :wink:
I have relatives who are catholic.. I have heard an earfull, I just wonder about why they believe stuff that is contrary to scripture thats all.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 03:03 PM
I have relatives who are catholic.. I have heard an earfull, I just wonder about why they believe stuff that is contrary to scripture thats all.

Catholics would begto differ. In any case, be careful where you get your facts about Catholicism. As you can...:laugh: not every source is even remotely objective or reliable.

wingrider
09-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Catholics would begto differ. In any case, be careful where you get your facts about Catholicism. As you can...:laugh: not every source is even remotely objective or reliable.
true

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 03:08 PM
Catholics would begto differ. In any case, be careful where you get your facts about Catholicism. As you can...:laugh: not every source is even remotely objective or reliable.

yes, you could even say they are "fundamentally" different.

:sign10:

Mister D
09-07-2012, 03:09 PM
yes, you could even say they are "fundamentally" different.

:sign10:

No, you could say that Judaism and Christianity are fundamentally different. And even that is arguable to an extent. Perhaps I should use Christianity and Buddhism. That way we're safe. :grin:

AZFlyFisher
09-07-2012, 03:16 PM
I have relatives who are catholic.. I have heard an earfull, I just wonder about why they believe stuff that is contrary to scripture thats all.

Contrary to scripture? Sounds more like a fundamental difference than window dressing.

Mister D
09-07-2012, 03:18 PM
Contrary to scripture? Sounds more like a fundamental difference than window dressing.

Sounds like you're desperate to sow division but you just aren't smart enough. :wink:

GCF
09-07-2012, 07:37 PM
The New Testament contains at least five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church. One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter the "rock".


"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).


This is basically where the Catholic went wrong with the whole Pope methaphor. Some believe that Peter is the Rock of the Church, a man, a man that Catholics think they can replace. Their belief of a Pope is, wrong. Most scholars now looking at this verse suggest the correct translation should of been that Peter was a pebble, not the Rock.

Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14 would be refering to this subject.

Ps just go here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/origins-of-peter-as-pope I think with recent discoveries in translations this has been finally debunked but not according to the Catholic teaching. The guy is right, Peter as Pope has authority over the earth as Jesus, which is totally wrong.

Ivan88
09-07-2012, 08:45 PM
There is no fundamental difference between most or almost all Christian denominations. They are all following the "Leaven of the Pharisee".

That is why we are in such a mess.

GCF
09-07-2012, 08:57 PM
The man being a hypocrit as in general, why the best sayings, "I can live with my hypocrisy it is yours I have a problem with". Meaning it aint the religion it is man.

wingrider
09-07-2012, 09:26 PM
You mean am I a Cristian.. Yes. Its important to me. so please sahre with us the fundamental precepts of your faith as a christian

Deadwood
09-07-2012, 09:36 PM
eccesiastical? :laugh: Look up the spelling while you try to determine it's meaning.

Catholics believe the Pope is Jesus' representative on earth. Hardly just an ecclesiastical difference. It's extremely fundamental.

I suppose now you will also claim Catholics are a tiny minority.


WRONG!


The Roman Church is what I think you are referring to. Catholicism means the universal church e.i. , all Christians of all sects. And they do NOT believe the Pope is Jesus' "representative" on earth. They believe the Pope is God's representative on earth. The fact of the distinction is one of the non-fundamental issues which separate them from the "protestant" faiths.

Again we find a deep rooted and stubborn ignorance of the English language as the cause of the issue. I doubt anyone with such an attitude could ever grasp the theological subtleties of the Bible which, according to most theologians is both factual -- as in the teachings of a Jewish Carpenter, his actions and miracles -- and metaphor.

To fully comprehend the old testament one must first grasp the method of story telling in any particular era, the culture [like why fishes and loaves were significant] AND the norms of the period. One must also have at least a passing understanding of whom the stories were written for and why.

Was Job actually covered in boils? Does it matter to the narrative and the point of the story?

No, the entire Bible is NOT word-for-word God's law....I mean I don't think the Supreme Being still insists we burn down our homes if we get mildew .....which you will find in Leviticus.

Just a suggestion, but you might want to stick with topics you actually know....like crayons or something.

Deadwood
09-07-2012, 09:38 PM
so please sahre with us the fundamental precepts of your faith as a christian

Not going to happen. This is just a masqueraded attack on Romney, the theological equivalent of playing the race card.

Trinnity
09-07-2012, 09:39 PM
I got into a discussion with someone on another forum who claims it's a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today."

What do you all think?Like what? It's way to vague.

Deadwood
09-07-2012, 09:42 PM
No, you could say that Judaism and Christianity are fundamentally different. And even that is arguable to an extent. Perhaps I should use Christianity and Buddhism. That way we're safe. :grin:

You are correct.

The "fundamental" difference being the three fundamentals of Christian faith: Jesus was the Son of God, was of virgin birth and rose from the dead.

BTW, Jesus never converted to any other faith. He was born and died a Jew.

GCF
09-07-2012, 11:01 PM
You are correct.

The "fundamental" difference being the three fundamentals of Christian faith: Jesus was the Son of God, was of virgin birth and rose from the dead.

BTW, Jesus never converted to any other faith. He was born and died a Jew.

Well that was said to happen in the old testement. Yet Jesus was the Lord as in not the son but God or 1/3 of the trinnity. As it was him that walk with Abraham an others during there time. Now understanding that Moses wrote the first 5 books as was the Lord that decided the Hebrew needed a history to talk about like the other people walking the earth. To say Jesus was just a physical son and holds no part of God is of itself rather radical. It is in no way associated with the theory of Literal meaning. Yet without a doubt, how could the lord explain to primitve man how life started? Obviously the taken of literal translation of the OT esp. the Torah (1st 5 books correct) would be rather radical also.

As far as the Pope goes, obviously the Catholic Teaching is clearly that the Pope has authority an is indeed between the People an God making him basically the replacement of the Lord or Jesus, one of the same! Now I for one don't except it but it is historical correct that is the position of much of the Catholic Leadership that built the Church, an I believe still held on today by many of their faith.

Mister D
09-08-2012, 09:52 AM
You are correct.

The "fundamental" difference being the three fundamentals of Christian faith: Jesus was the Son of God, was of virgin birth and rose from the dead.

BTW, Jesus never converted to any other faith. He was born and died a Jew.

Very true, sir.

shaarona
09-08-2012, 10:00 AM
so please sahre with us the fundamental precepts of your faith as a christian

What a strange request.


The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

AZFlyFisher
09-10-2012, 02:13 PM
Would rejecting the Nicene Creed make some Christians fundamentally different?

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:16 PM
Would rejecting the Nicene Creed make some Christians fundamentally different?

The vast majority of Christians observe the Nicene Creed. Dude, just give up! :rofl:

AZFlyFisher
09-10-2012, 02:25 PM
Millions of Christians reject The Nicene Creed and/or The Apostles Creed.

I call that a fundamental difference.

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Millions of Christians reject The Nicene Creed and/or The Apostles Creed.

I call that a fundamental difference.

I call it a tiny minority. :rofl:

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:29 PM
What's really funny about this is that AZ stumbled onto proof that he 's wrong. :laugh: The vast majority of Christian sects accept the Nicene Creed. AZ, I know you're too stupid to see what you've done but the rest of us are getting a laugh.

AZFlyFisher
09-10-2012, 02:36 PM
I don't think so. I've only seen a couple responses that have agreed with you. Your statement that it's a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today" is obviously wrong.

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:37 PM
I don't think so. I've only seen a couple responses that have agreed with you. Your statement that it's a "fact that the vast majority of Christians have held the same core beliefs for well over a thousand years and continue to hold these beliefs today" is obviously wrong.

And you just proved me right! Thanks! :rofl:

AZFlyFisher
09-10-2012, 02:43 PM
It's really funny when someone loses an argument so they post "you just proved me right" because they have nothing left.

Thanks for making my day!

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:45 PM
It's really funny when someone loses an argument so they post "you just proved me right" because they have nothing left.

Thanks for making my day!




Stop twitching, AZ.

Thanks for bringing up the Nicene Creed. Since the vast majority of Christians accept the Nicene Creed you done proved yourself wrong! :grin:

shaarona
09-10-2012, 02:48 PM
Millions of Christians reject The Nicene Creed and/or The Apostles Creed.

I call that a fundamental difference.

Well some denominations object to the word Catholic.. but Catholic also means Universal.

So it is generally understood to be the universal body of Christians.

Mister D
09-10-2012, 02:50 PM
Well some denominations object to the word Catholic.. but Catholic also means Universal.

So it is generally understood to be the universal body of Christians.

No worries. AZZ is a hapless atheist who trolls websites trying to prove Christians wrong. He might do better if he actually knew something about Christianity.

shaarona
09-10-2012, 02:52 PM
No worries. AZZ is a hapless atheist who trolls websites trying to prove Christians wrong. He might do better if he actually knew something about Christianity.

Ah.. fertile soil.:rollseyes:
:rollseyes:

AZFlyFisher
09-10-2012, 05:50 PM
Mister D gets excited sometimes and says things without thinking. I believe I've figured out what the "D" stands for.

There are fundamental differences between Christian denominations.

The Pope is central to the core belief of Catholics. Only Catholics.

Joseph Smith is central to the core belief of Mormons. Only Mormons.

Not all denominations believe in the trinity.

Some denominations reject The Nicene Creed.

Some denominations reject The Apostles Creed.

40% of Americans believe in the literal interpretation of the bible and the rest don't.

Fundamental differences, each one. We're talking about fundamental differences between millions and millions of Christians here.