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Stuck_In_California
09-20-2012, 07:49 AM
Why I Think Catholicism Is Correct

Adapted from Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth (http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth)
(http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth)


Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:1 8 ). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, because any merely human organization would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8 )
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28 ). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).

He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.


Adapted from this source: http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

Stuck_In_California
09-22-2012, 09:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w

shaarona
09-22-2012, 09:50 AM
Some think of the "church" as the body of believers.. and "Catholic" also means universal.

Stuck_In_California
09-22-2012, 10:00 AM
Some think of the "church" as the body of believers.. and "Catholic" also means universal.

Those are both true, but the definition is not limited to that.

Here is a full definition: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p1.htm

shaarona
09-22-2012, 10:09 AM
Those are both true, but the definition is not limited to that.

Here is a full definition: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p1.htm

Seems a bit narrow to me... leaves out many Christians.

Stuck_In_California
09-22-2012, 10:27 AM
Seems a bit narrow to me... leaves out many Christians.

Narrow? Did you actually read it?

If you can find a more full definition than the one offered at my link Id'd sure love to see it.

Stuck_In_California
09-30-2012, 10:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8_QIoB4Ow

Peter1469
09-30-2012, 11:23 AM
I enjoyed my tour of the Vatican, although I didn't get to go underground.

Stuck_In_California
09-30-2012, 07:50 PM
I enjoyed my tour of the Vatican, although I didn't get to go underground.

I am officially jealous.

:)

Peter1469
09-30-2012, 08:26 PM
Lots of cool stuff there. Walking up to the top of the central dome was pretty claustrophobic. I had to bend with the wall and make my way up and up. All in all for a major city, Rome may be my favorite.

roadmaster
09-30-2012, 09:28 PM
I have nothing against the Catholics that teach Jesus ways. Will admit I see some like other demonations bending His words to not have members leave. I follow Christ and only Him.

Carygrant
10-01-2012, 04:12 AM
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin.
[/LEFT]



I am delighted to tell you that it is fast dropping into insignificance here in the UK with under2% visiting one of these Churches regularly .
And with scholarship developing at such a fast pace plus constant new finds , the dodgy nature of the intellectual structure of this sect is being fast exposed .
Like many others I am happy to see Christians flourish and as long as they have no power within the State or over its people they should be left to enjoy their quaint beliefs . In this context most christians are socially useful and easily handled by the State .
But beware the sincere believer acting on Faith -- a recipe for real world disasters .

Stuck_In_California
10-01-2012, 06:37 AM
I am delighted to tell you that it is fast dropping into insignificance here in the UK with under2% visiting one of these Churches regularly..........

That delights you? Well, this delights me:

Five hundred years ago the Catholic Church was essentially wiped off the face of the British map, and any priest caught celebrating a Catholic Mass was killed.

Today in the 21st century the Pope is greeted by throngs of cheering British crowds and he celebrates an open-air Mass in Glascow to a 70,000 strong crowd. And globally, the Catholic Church is now grown to about 1.3 billion, one-sixth of the human race.

So, as usual, your facts do not fit reality.



https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2186831845/128x128_twitter_bbc_uk.jpg

Papal visit: Thousands attend Mass in Glasgow
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11333448

About 70,000 people attended the celebratory event in Bellahouston Park.

In his homily, the Pope warned against people who seek "to exclude religious belief from public discourse". Earlier, he urged the UK to resist "more aggressive forms of secularism". The Pope has now arrived by plane at Heathrow. He was met by London Mayor Boris Johnson, who presented him with three books, including Mr Johnson's own historical book, To Dream of Rome.

The Pope is staying the night at the Apostolic Nunciature - the residence of his representative in Britain - in Wimbledon, south-west London, ahead of a day of events, including a service at Westminster Abbey, on Friday.

A spokesman for the Catholic Church in England and Wales hailed the first day of the visit as a "success". "Everybody in the Pope's entourage was overwhelmed by the people on the streets of Edinburgh and the turn out in Glasgow this evening. It wasn't just the size of the crowd but their enthusiasm," he said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzY7pgVA_Io

Stuck_In_California
10-01-2012, 06:41 AM
I have nothing against the Catholics that teach Jesus ways. Will admit I see some like other demonations bending His words to not have members leave. I follow Christ and only Him.

Oh, we have that problem too. Not all members do as the Church expects them to do.

Carygrant
10-01-2012, 06:49 AM
[QUOTE=Stuck_In_California;146175]:

Five hundred years ago the Catholic Church was essentially wiped off the face of the British map, and any priest caught celebrating a Catholic Mass was killed.QUOTE

You are right . They were great times . Good sport




QUOTE Today in the 21st century the Pope is greeted by throngs of cheering British crowds and he celebrates an open-air Mass in Glascow to a 70,000 strong crowd. QUOTE

Told you he is a loser . Even the Spice Girls hammered the Pope .We get 70 , 000 every time Manchester United play at home .
So you say that the Pope is as popular as an average football match but nowhere as good as watching a great pop Group .
I can go along with that . Is he the Nazi Pope or was that a previous one ?

Stuck_In_California
10-01-2012, 06:53 AM
You are right . They were great times . Good sport




Told you he is a loser . Even the Spice Girls hammered the Pope .We get 70 , 000 every time Manchester United play at home .
So you say that the Pope is as popular as an average football match but nowhere as good as watching a great pop Group .
I can go along with that . Is he the Nazi Pope or was that a previous one ?


I feel sorry for you.

Your pathetic attempt to get under my skin will ellicit only pity from me, not anger.

Carygrant
10-01-2012, 07:10 AM
[QUOTE=Carygrant;146185]

I feel sorry for you.Your pathetic attempt to get under my skin will ellicit only pity from me, not anger.



Your skin has not yet interested me but I do like to help you have the right facts available .
I appreciate your sect uses beliefs but we can't have you being eternal losers . It's a sort of Charity job I enjoy .

Mister D
10-01-2012, 08:09 AM
I am delighted to tell you that it is fast dropping into insignificance here in the UK with under2% visiting one of these Churches regularly .
And with scholarship developing at such a fast pace plus constant new finds , the dodgy nature of the intellectual structure of this sect is being fast exposed .
Like many others I am happy to see Christians flourish and as long as they have no power within the State or over its people they should be left to enjoy their quaint beliefs . In this context most christians are socially useful and easily handled by the State .
But beware the sincere believer acting on Faith -- a recipe for real world disasters .

The UK itself has fast "dropped to insignificance". You sure you're not confusing the two? :smiley:

Stuck_In_California
10-01-2012, 09:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-F_EwKbZKY

Carygrant
10-01-2012, 11:42 AM
The UK itself has fast "dropped to insignificance". You sure you're not confusing the two? :smiley:


It's very instructive to watch insecure Americans projecting their fears onto others .
We have rather showed you the way several times this year . Very upsetting I appreciate .

Mister D
10-01-2012, 11:47 AM
It's very instructive to watch insecure Americans projecting their fears onto others .
We have rather showed you the way several times this year . Very upsetting I appreciate .

You post at an American forum, lambast American pols, and comment on elections you have no part in because you're secure? :laugh: No, it's because your little island is irrelevant. It's also in part because deep down you realize we own you.

Captain Obvious
10-01-2012, 07:15 PM
Do not divert the thread with incivility

AZFlyFisher
10-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Catholics, Protestants, Mormons.... not much different. They are all fundamentally the same.

Just ask Mister D.

Peter1469
10-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Catholics, Protestants, Mormons.... not much different. They are all fundamentally the same.

Just ask Mister D.

Do you understand the concept of principles that cannot be debated versus those that are open to debate within religious groups?

Deadwood
10-01-2012, 09:19 PM
Those are both true, but the definition is not limited to that.

Here is a full definition: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p1.htm

Well, you're both right......but I suggest that you are referring to what I call the Roman church. Catholic means all of us and I happen to believe that Jesus wants a one-on-one relationship with each of us....

He dismissed the priesthood of the day and, in fact, dismissed the concept of forgiveness through any earthly power.

The Roman Church insists you cannot have communion if you have sinned; Jesus told his followers "take this and eat" having just told them how they would sin....
So please, be specific when talking about a church that has had popes who sold their favors, popes who appointed their sons as heirs to the throne and popes who ordered up wars because of Middle East real estate deals...

AZFlyFisher
10-01-2012, 10:18 PM
Do you understand the concept of principles that cannot be debated versus those that are open to debate within religious groups?

Of course. The only thing they have in common is Jesus, though. Protestants deny Papal Infallibility and Mormons added Joseph Smith. That changed their fundamental beliefs from the original Christians. You can't be a Catholic without a Pope or a Mormon without Joseph Smith now, can you?

roadmaster
10-01-2012, 10:32 PM
Catholics, Protestants, Mormons.... not much different. They are all fundamentally the same.

Just ask Mister D.

Only the ones who have core beliefs.

Carygrant
10-02-2012, 12:09 AM
Do not divert the thread with incivility


Quite right or obvious , Obvious .
There are several natural medications and I have sent him full details by PM.

Stuck_In_California
10-02-2012, 07:22 AM
Well, you're both right......but I suggest that you are referring to what I call the Roman church. Catholic means all of us and I happen to believe that Jesus wants a one-on-one relationship with each of us........

I know you're a cool guy, and I know you meant no insult. But it is in fact insulting to us to be called the Roman Church. In fact, if you look up Romanism in a dictionary it is listed as a slur.

Stuck_In_California
10-02-2012, 07:24 AM
Do not divert the thread with incivility

Quite right or obvious , Obvious .
There are several natural medications and I have sent him full details by PM.

LOL. YOU are the incivil one. You're only purpose here is to smear and insult the Church.

Mister D
10-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Do you understand the concept of principles that cannot be debated versus those that are open to debate within religious groups?

He just doesn't get it. :laugh: It's been explained to him several times now.

Stuck_In_California
10-02-2012, 08:07 AM
Catholics, Protestants, Mormons.... not much different. They are all fundamentally the same.........
Not true.

Catholics and Protestants, and Eastern Orthodoix (which you left out) are the same in the fundamentals, but Mormons are quite different.

Mister D
10-02-2012, 08:15 AM
Not true.

Catholics and Protestants, and Eastern Orthodoix (which you left out) are the same in the fundamentals, but Mormons are quite different.

AZZ is having a real hard time with these two quite different ideas: 1) the fundamentals of the various Christian sects being the same and 2) the sects themselves being fundamentally the same. Really, I'm not sure what else I can say to him. :laugh:

Stuck_In_California
10-02-2012, 08:41 AM
AZZ is having a real hard time with these two quite different ideas: 1) the fundamentals of the various Christian sects being the same and 2) the sects themselves being fundamentally the same. Really, I'm not sure what else I can say to him. :laugh:

Well, the fundamentals, according to fundamentalists, are:

The inspiration of the Bible and the inerrancy of scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ's miracles.

We all believe these.


As for sects, you must understand that from a Catholic perspective, we are not a sect. We are the Church, from which all other sects broke away.

Carygrant
10-02-2012, 02:33 PM
AZZ is having a real hard time with these two quite different ideas: 1) the fundamentals of the various Christian sects being the same and 2) the sects themselves being fundamentally the same. Really, I'm not sure what else I can say to him. :laugh:


Just tell him that you have a nice fairy story that suits you and makes you feel secure .
And why ruin a person's life when what they believe makes them happy ?
Medicate them by all means . But don't ruin their refuge .

Carygrant
10-02-2012, 02:35 PM
Well, the fundamentals, according to fundamentalists, are:

The inspiration of the Bible and the inerrancy of scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ's miracles.
As for sects, you must understand that from a Catholic perspective, we are not a sect. We are the Church, from which all other sects broke away.

Our sect believes that pigs can fly .
We are also very happy .

Mister D
10-02-2012, 02:38 PM
Just tell him that you have a nice fairy story that suits you and makes you feel secure .
And why ruin a person's life when what they believe makes them happy ?
Medicate them by all means . But don't ruin their refuge .

Speaking of fairy tales, weren't you telling us how successful integration and multiculturalism have been in the UK? :smiley_ROFLMAO:How much Britons love diversity? Does that comfort you? I won't ruin your refuge, Cary. :laugh:

AZFlyFisher
10-02-2012, 10:51 PM
Catholicism is a blight on society that continues to grow in third world countries despite it's recent exposure of internal corruption and institutional perversion. It's big business, one of the biggest and oldest in the world. Roman Catholic influence on Western Culture will continue to decline. I hope that the influence of Islam will decline soon also. Lack of higher education where Islam remains strong is an obstacle.

roadmaster
10-02-2012, 11:10 PM
You are always going to find imperfect people in all groups. I have known some wiccas that have deceived Churches and laughed because some became Sunday School Teachers. They watch what they say but won't say some verses in the Bible. Even some Church buildings are blind, but they are only there to divide.

Stuck_In_California
10-03-2012, 07:38 AM
Catholicism is a blight on society.............

You're a pathetic pinhead. The Pope is a better person than you will ever be, and the saints of the church are beautiful people, unlkike you.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w

Mister D
10-03-2012, 08:20 AM
Catholicism is a blight on society that continues to grow in third world countries despite it's recent exposure of internal corruption and institutional perversion. It's big business, one of the biggest and oldest in the world. Roman Catholic influence on Western Culture will continue to decline. I hope that the influence of Islam will decline soon also. Lack of higher education where Islam remains strong is an obstacle.

Not long ago, AZZ claimed Catholicism was disappearing. At least he's trying to use the education I gave him then.

BTW, AZZ, to rid ourselves of the Christian influence on the Western mind it would take a major shift in our current way of life but I don't want to take the conversation over your head.

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 12:34 PM
You're a pathetic pinhead. The Pope is a better person than you will ever be, and the saints of the church are beautiful people, unlkike you.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/4/1270405122137/pope-easter-001.jpg

Your pedophile protecting Pope sits on his golden throne while your people suffer and yet you believe him infallible.

Every dollar you contribute to the Church makes YOU an accomplice. You support an institution of thieves and pedophiles. How does that feel?

Chris
10-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Your pedophile protecting Pope sits on his golden throne while your people suffer and yet you believe him infallible.

Every dollar you contribute to the Church makes YOU an accomplice. You support an institution of thieves and pedophiles. How does that feel?

AZ, that's really not very logical or factual. It's like the press stretching political facts and logic.

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 12:53 PM
Not long ago, AZZ claimed Catholicism was disappearing. At least he's trying to use the education I gave him then.

BTW, AZZ, to rid ourselves of the Christian influence on the Western mind it would take a major shift in our current way of life but I don't want to take the conversation over your head.

The influence of Catholicism in Western Society continues to decline. The same thing will eventually happen worldwide. Your church will eventually run out of people to convert and you certainly aren't retaining them. Latinos now make up over 1/3 of Catholics in the United States. Over 50% of Catholics under the age of 25 here are Latino. If it weren't for the influx from south of the border, Catholicism in the United States would be declining MUCH faster.

From the United States Conference Of Catholic Bishops http://old.usccb.org/hispanicaffairs/demo.shtml

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 01:03 PM
AZ, that's really not very logical or factual. It's like the press stretching political facts and logic.

It has been proven that Catholic Priests and Bishops have protected and enabled pedophiles. Even Ratzinger himself was a part of it.

Knowingly contributing money to an organization with a history of institutional pedophilia and deception makes you an accomplice.

Chris
10-03-2012, 01:31 PM
It has been proven that Catholic Priests and Bishops have protected and enabled pedophiles. Even Ratzinger himself was a part of it.

Knowingly contributing money to an organization with a history of institutional pedophilia and deception makes you an accomplice.

It's been proven, what, in court, that some did? We know that. But you're making a grand canyon leap to that's the surrent position of the Church and Pope. The "knowingly" falls a little short, and it's a long fall. This is why I think, personally, you're just making an inflammatory statement.

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 05:52 PM
The fact that Ratzinger was part of the cover up and enabled abuse to continue is well documented.

Vatican Declined to Defrock U.S. Priest Who Abused Boyshttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html


More documents link Ratzinger to abuse caseshttp://ncronline.org/news/accountability/more-documents-link-ratzinger-abuse-cases
Archbishop Ratzinger knew about sex-abuse in Church in Munichhttp://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/archbishop-ratzinger-knew-about-sex-abuse-in-church-in-munich/



The well established pattern of Sexual abuse within the Catholic Church has been so widespread and frequent it can only be described as institutional. Anyone who is proud to be a member and still calls it the one true church ought to have their head examined.

Thousand’s in Australia abused by Roman Catholic priests (http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/thousands-in-australia-abused-by-roman-catholic-priests/)September 24, 2012http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/category/vatican-rapes-and-sexcrimes/


"All who stay put inside the Roman Catholic religious system, live with a constant risk of having their children abused by some of these perverts. And all who accept Roman Catholicism as true Christianity becomes equally guilty of these crimes."

Chris
10-03-2012, 05:59 PM
Your links go to stories about the Church taking care of the issue.

Most sexual abuser are family members, I believe, do you also rant against family?

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 06:26 PM
Your links go to stories about the Church taking care of the issue.

Most sexual abuser are family members, I believe, do you also rant against family?

You must have missed these parts, Chris.

"The internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin directly to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, shows that while church officials tussled over whether the priest should be dismissed, their highest priority was protecting the church from scandal."


"Friday afternoon, The Associated Press reported that it had obtained church files showing that before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger resisted defrocking a California priest who molested children."

"The truth is that the Vatican is ran by a priesthood that is not a single day better than any mafia."


No one here is claiming a family member is the one true church, are they? What does that have to do with the topic on hand?

Peter1469
10-03-2012, 06:31 PM
You must have missed these parts, Chris.

"The internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin directly to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, shows that while church officials tussled over whether the priest should be dismissed, their highest priority was protecting the church from scandal."


"Friday afternoon, The Associated Press reported that it had obtained church files showing that before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger resisted defrocking a California priest who molested children."

"The truth is that the Vatican is ran by a priesthood that is not a single day better than any mafia."


No one here is claiming a family member is the one true church, are they? What does that have to do with the topic on hand?


"The truth is that the Vatican is ran by a priesthood that is not a single day better than any mafia."

Are you trying to tell us that the Church killed Jimmy Hoffa?

Chris
10-03-2012, 07:13 PM
You must have missed these parts, Chris.

"The internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin directly to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, shows that while church officials tussled over whether the priest should be dismissed, their highest priority was protecting the church from scandal."


"Friday afternoon, The Associated Press reported that it had obtained church files showing that before becoming pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger resisted defrocking a California priest who molested children."

"The truth is that the Vatican is ran by a priesthood that is not a single day better than any mafia."


No one here is claiming a family member is the one true church, are they? What does that have to do with the topic on hand?


You must have missed these parts, Chris.

"The internal correspondence from bishops...."

And you must've missed these parts from your own source that contradict you:
The Archbishop of Melbourne, Denis Hart, described the figures as “horrific and shameful”.
The Roman Catholic Church in the Australian state of Victoria has confirmed that more than 600 children have been sexually abused by its priests since the 1930s.

They were released in a submission to a state parliamentary inquiry into the handling of abuse cases.
Campaigners say the true number of abuse victims could be up to 10,000.

In its submission, the church said the 620 cases went back 80 years with the majority taking place between the 1960s and the 1980s. It says it is still investigating a further 45 cases.

In a statement, Archbishop Hart said it was important to be open “about the horrific abuse that has occurred in Victoria and elsewhere”.

“We look to this inquiry to assist the healing of those who have been abused, to examine the broad context of the church’s response, especially over the last 16 years, and to make recommendations to enhance the care for victims and preventative measures that are now in place,” the statement said....

AZFlyFisher
10-03-2012, 10:43 PM
Sorry, but you just pointed out the "Campaigners say the true number in the Australian state of Victoria could be up to 10,000."


I fail to see how that contradicts the abuse is institutional.

His comment about "the last 16 years" shows it's more recent than most Catholics will admit. Thank's for helping me prove my point, Chris.

Chris
10-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Because your source says the church is working to resolve the issue.

roadmaster
10-04-2012, 01:02 PM
Because your source says the church is working to resolve the issue.

How do you know they are not? How many organizations have pedophiles gotten into unnoticed? From coaches to teachers ect. You are not immune to having a friend that may be one. They should get the ones who truly covered for them but most Catholics are good people.

Chris
10-04-2012, 02:04 PM
How do you know they are not? How many organizations have pedophiles gotten into unnoticed? From coaches to teachers ect. You are not immune to having a friend that may be one. They should get the ones who truly covered for them but most Catholics are good people.

Whoa! I'm on your side and said similar earlier.

Stuck_In_California
10-09-2012, 07:15 AM
Your pedophile protecting Pope sits on his golden throne while your people suffer and yet you believe him infallible.

Every dollar you contribute to the Church makes YOU an accomplice. You support an institution of thieves and pedophiles. How does that feel?

Wow. What a pathetic excuse for a post. A pack of lies wrapped up in hate

Mister D
10-09-2012, 09:16 AM
Stuck, he agrees with you.

Stuck_In_California
10-09-2012, 09:53 AM
Stuck, he agrees with you.

oops

Stuck_In_California
10-09-2012, 09:55 AM
Almost all alleged abuse cases took place between a priest and a teenage boy. Guess what all you anti-Catholic Einsteins: Thats not pedophelia, thats homosexuality. So once again, the evil of homosexuality has reared its disgusting head and destroyed lives.

Mister D
10-09-2012, 01:28 PM
It is difficult to overlook the fact that the overwhelming majority of these cases involve both male perpetrators and male victims.

shaarona
10-09-2012, 02:39 PM
Almost all alleged abuse cases took place between a priest and a teenage boy. Guess what all you anti-Catholic Einsteins: Thats not pedophelia, thats homosexuality. So once again, the evil of homosexuality has reared its disgusting head and destroyed lives.

Some of these boys who have been molested are not yet teens. In any case.. there is no presumption of "consent".. It is what it is.. and its criminal.

The problem in the Catholic Church is that parents go to the Bishop instead of to law enforcement.

AZFlyFisher
10-09-2012, 03:14 PM
Almost all alleged abuse cases took place between a priest and a teenage boy. Guess what all you anti-Catholic Einsteins: Thats not pedophelia, thats homosexuality. So once again, the evil of homosexuality has reared its disgusting head and destroyed lives.

So you believe as Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone does, that homosexuality is to blame.

Yes, more than 80% of abuse victims have been male..... but THEY DIDN'T HAVE AS MUCH ACCESS TO LITTLE GIRLS. Read that again and think about it. 20% of victims were little girls. Little girls were raped more than little boys in the age group 1 - 7. The average age of all victims was 12.6 years old.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html



The scandal is in the abuse, cover up, and lies told by church officials throughout the organization, regardless of whether they were homosexual Catholics, pedophile Catholics, or hebephilic Catholics. Get it?

Your beloved Pope was even involved in the cover up. Your church is a disgrace and anyone who continues to support it is too.

Stuck_In_California
10-10-2012, 10:20 AM
So you believe as Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone does, that homosexuality is to blame.

Yes, more than 80% of abuse victims have been male..... but THEY DIDN'T HAVE AS MUCH ACCESS TO LITTLE GIRLS. Read that again and think about it. 20% of victims were little girls. Little girls were raped more than little boys in the age group 1 - 7. The average age of all victims was 12.6 years old.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html



The scandal is in the abuse, cover up, and lies told by church officials throughout the organization, regardless of whether they were homosexual Catholics, pedophile Catholics, or hebephilic Catholics. Get it?

Your beloved Pope was even involved in the cover up. Your church is a disgrace and anyone who continues to support it is too.

You are a full fledged liar and a despicalble vermin. I hope you rot in the place that is reserved for you in hell.

Stuck_In_California
10-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Some of these boys who have been molested are not yet teens. In any case.. there is no presumption of "consent".. It is what it is.. and its criminal.

The problem in the Catholic Church is that parents go to the Bishop instead of to law enforcement.


I never said that there is no problem; there is. The thing is that you can't fix a problem until you correctly identify the problem. And the problem is NOT pedophelia.

And here is the other thing: The statistics PROVE that the real problem, which is sex with minors, is far more prevalant in the general American population than it is in the Catholic priesthood. So this begs the question: Why do people zoom in on Catholic preists and not the actual problem in society? The answer is simple: Godless freaks hate the Catholic Church and want to use this as a beating stick. They don't give a shit about kids, because if they did they'd zoom in on where the real numbers lay. Jerks like this piece of shit AZFlyFisher, just want to attack the Church. AZFlyFisher does not give a flying frig about kids, she just wants to attack the Catholic Church, becusae thats what evil people have done for 2000 years.

shaarona
10-10-2012, 10:38 AM
I never said that there is no problem; there is. The thing is that you can't fix a problem until you correctly identify the problem. And the problem is NOT pedophelia.

And here is the other thing: The statistics PROVE that the real problem, which is sex with minors, is far more prevalant in the general American population than it is in the Catholic priesthood. So this begs the question: Why do people zoom in on Catholic preists and not the actual problem in society? The answer is simple: Godless freaks hate the Catholic Church and want to use this as a beating stick. They don't give a shit about kids, because if they did they'd zoom in on where the real numbers lay. Jerks like this piece of shit AZFlyFisher, just want to attack the Church. AZFlyFisher does not give a flying frig about kids, she just wants to attack the Catholic Church, becusae thats what evil people have done for 2000 years.

Of course its pedophelia..

My son and his family are Catholic.. and you haven't lived until you have supper with a large Catholic family who are furious about pedophelia in the church.

You have terrible bad manners with your name calling and projections on to others.

Stuck_In_California
10-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Of course its pedophelia.. ........

Heloooooo.... ...didn't we just address this? Pedophelia is sex attaraction to pre-pubescent kids. Men haveing sex with teenage men is NOT pedophelia!!!


......My son and his family are Catholic.. and you haven't lived until you have supper with a large Catholic family who are furious about pedophelia in the church............

My family is Italian, so I have had supper with an Italian family, and thank God my family is noy as stupid as yours is.

AZFlyFisher
10-10-2012, 02:29 PM
I never said that there is no problem; there is. The thing is that you can't fix a problem until you correctly identify the problem. And the problem is NOT pedophelia.

And here is the other thing: The statistics PROVE that the real problem, which is sex with minors, is far more prevalant in the general American population than it is in the Catholic priesthood. So this begs the question: Why do people zoom in on Catholic preists and not the actual problem in society? The answer is simple: Godless freaks hate the Catholic Church and want to use this as a beating stick. They don't give a shit about kids, because if they did they'd zoom in on where the real numbers lay. Jerks like this piece of shit AZFlyFisher, just want to attack the Church. AZFlyFisher does not give a flying frig about kids, she just wants to attack the Catholic Church, becusae thats what evil people have done for 2000 years.

You are in complete denial regarding the institutional abuse within the organization you support financially and promote as "correct" and "the light of the world." Sexual abuse among the general public is overwhelmingly against females. There is a difference. The Catholic Church worked very hard for many years to cover up the abuse and protect the abusers. There's another difference.

694

You said:

"The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, because any merely human organization would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit."

I say bullshit. There is nothing divine about the Catholic Church. Where was the protection of the "Holy Spirit" when the Priests were fondling toddlers and raping them?

AZFlyFisher
10-13-2012, 11:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5RgcwIhEkL0

Morningstar
10-13-2012, 11:17 PM
The scandal is in the abuse, cover up, and lies told by church officials throughout the organization, regardless of whether they were homosexual Catholics, pedophile Catholics, or hebephilic Catholics. Get it?



Religion is the scandal. That's all.

AZFlyFisher
10-14-2012, 02:10 AM
Religion is the scandal. That's all.

736

Chris
10-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Religion is the scandal. That's all.

Aren't you two committing the common logical fallacy of overgeneralization? It simply does not follow from the sins of some that an entire group is sinful.

Morningstar
10-14-2012, 10:14 AM
Aren't you two committing the common logical fallacy of overgeneralization? It simply does not follow from the sins of some that an entire group is sinful.

The entire group covers it up. Therefore, they are accomplices, and guilty as well.

truthmatters
10-14-2012, 10:20 AM
organized religion is the problem


not religion

Chris
10-14-2012, 10:27 AM
The entire group covers it up. Therefore, they are accomplices, and guilty as well.

Again, a gross overgeneralization. That's bigotry.

Morningstar
10-15-2012, 12:50 PM
Again, a gross overgeneralization. That's bigotry.

The Catholic Church, as an institution, doesn't cover up pedophilia? I think you'll have a hard time defending that claim...

Captain Obvious
10-15-2012, 04:11 PM
organized religion is the problem


not religion

Agreed

Chris
10-15-2012, 06:31 PM
The Catholic Church, as an institution, doesn't cover up pedophilia? I think you'll have a hard time defending that claim...

A church is its people, not it's organization. Once again, did all the people commit and/or cover it up as your overgeneralization suggests?

Here, let me try and show the error of your logic. It is well known that most molestations are incestuous or interfamilial. By your logic then, families, as a social organization, are evil. Absurd.

Chris
10-15-2012, 06:33 PM
organized religion is the problem


not religion


Agreed

Assume that's true, that organization is the problem. What's the biggest organizational problem in the world besides government? Yet liberals who decry organized religion worship government.

Morningstar
10-15-2012, 06:36 PM
A church is its people, not it's organization. Once again, did all the people commit and/or cover it up as your overgeneralization suggests?

Here, let me try and show the error of your logic. It is well known that most molestations are incestuous or interfamilial. By your logic then, families, as a social organization, are evil. Absurd.
1. The Catholic Church is a hierarchichal organization. Period.

2.Your example doesn't follow my line of logic.

3. Anyway, there are a lot of catholic priests buggering little boys. Seems to be a wee bit of a problem.

roadmaster
10-15-2012, 06:39 PM
We are the Church not buildings. Anyone can walk into a building.

Chris
10-15-2012, 06:43 PM
1. The Catholic Church is a hierarchichal organization. Period.

2.Your example doesn't follow my line of logic.

3. Anyway, there are a lot of catholic priests buggering little boys. Seems to be a wee bit of a problem.

Thank you for finally reducing your overgeneralization to "a lot", now produce some facts to show what "a lot" is relative to. Here, let me help you:

What percentage of catholic priests do you estimate to be child molesters? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081027005343AAP3Vub)
According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[ According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.

Morningstar
10-15-2012, 06:50 PM
We are the Church not buildings. Anyone can walk into a building.

The Hierarchy is the church.

Chris
10-15-2012, 06:58 PM
The Hierarchy is the church.

It's a part of the Church.

Why is lumping so common among liberals: the church, the rich, the poor, the unions, the tea party, etc?

roadmaster
10-15-2012, 09:26 PM
The Hierarchy is the church.

How many ex-prisoners do you know that will admit they were raped in prison? The majority won't. How many did this coach rape before getting caught even when an internal investigation was done? Now look at kids, you have to have people to come out against them. Many in the Catholic Church would have done something if they had known. Do you not think they also had children in danger? Some kids won't say anything until they get a lot older. I am not Catholic but I am sure if these kids would have came to the women and good men of the Church something would have been done faster. You can't blame the whole Church building.

AZFlyFisher
10-16-2012, 01:39 AM
Thank you for finally reducing your overgeneralization to "a lot", now produce some facts to show what "a lot" is relative to. Here, let me help you:

What percentage of catholic priests do you estimate to be child molesters? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081027005343AAP3Vub)

If you can believe your "source."


The 6,115 priests who are now counted by the U.S. bishops as accused comprise 5.6% of the 109,694 priests in ministry 1950-2002. Yet as recently as November 2002, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, stated in an interview (http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news5/2002_11_30_Ratzinger_Interview.htm): "In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type."

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_Priests.htm

The big difference is when abusers in the general population are caught, they are not told to move to the next town by authorities who don't want publicity. How many Catholic Priests were repeat offenders after being transferred? How many butt rapes of little boys could have been prevented if they had called the police instead?

Chris
10-16-2012, 05:45 AM
If you can believe your "source."


The 6,115 priests who are now counted by the U.S. bishops as accused comprise 5.6% of the 109,694 priests in ministry 1950-2002. Yet as recently as November 2002, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, stated in an interview (http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news5/2002_11_30_Ratzinger_Interview.htm): "In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type."

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_Priests.htm

The big difference is when abusers in the general population are caught, they are not told to move to the next town by authorities who don't want publicity. How many Catholic Priests were repeat offenders after being transferred? How many butt rapes of little boys could have been prevented if they had called the police instead?

My source said 1-2% are molesters. Your source said 5% "are accused". Miss that? Accused. Ratzinger is correct.


The big difference is when abusers in the general population are caught, they are not told to move to the next town by authorities who don't want publicity.

You know this how? You don't.


How many Catholic Priests were repeat offenders after being transferred?

How many non-priests are?


How many butt rapes of little boys could have been prevented if they had called the police instead?

Be it by priests or not.


Another bit of information: Mean Men (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/07/mean-men.html): "The priesthood is being cast as the refuge of pederasts. In fact, priests seem to abuse children at the same rate as everyone else."