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wingrider
09-28-2011, 10:05 PM
BOSTON (AP) — A man was arrested Wednesday and accused of plotting an assault on the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol using remote-controlled aircraft armed with explosives — the latest of several terrorism cases to spring from federal sting operations.

Asked at one point about possibly killing women and children, Ferdaus allegedly said all unbelievers of Islam were his enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-us-man-planned-blow-pentagon-210116487.html

seems like these radicals won't quit until they plunge the whole world into a religious war.. do they want america to do to all muslims what was done to japanese during WWII. ? I would hate to see that but we cannot continue to put up with these kinds of attacks.

Conley
09-28-2011, 10:11 PM
He sounds like a complete crackpot...good thing he was caught that early though I doubt he would have gotten very far with his plan anyway.

I think internment camps would be too much. You can't go rounding up American citizens based on their religion, and it's not practical or necessary.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 09:09 AM
BOSTON (AP) — A man was arrested Wednesday and accused of plotting an assault on the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol using remote-controlled aircraft armed with explosives — the latest of several terrorism cases to spring from federal sting operations.

Asked at one point about possibly killing women and children, Ferdaus allegedly said all unbelievers of Islam were his enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-us-man-planned-blow-pentagon-210116487.html

seems like these radicals won't quit until they plunge the whole world into a religious war.. do they want america to do to all muslims what was done to japanese during WWII. ? I would hate to see that but we cannot continue to put up with these kinds of attacks.


We should be severely restricting the migration of Muslims into the US. I would certainly agree with that. The US has nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose by allowing the growth of Muslim communities. Soem may object abnd say it's unfair but it's not about fairness.

Pendragon
09-29-2011, 11:09 AM
BOSTON (AP) — A man was arrested Wednesday and accused of plotting an assault on the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol using remote-controlled aircraft armed with explosives — the latest of several terrorism cases to spring from federal sting operations.

Asked at one point about possibly killing women and children, Ferdaus allegedly said all unbelievers of Islam were his enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-us-man-planned-blow-pentagon-210116487.html

seems like these radicals won't quit until they plunge the whole world into a religious war.. do they want america to do to all muslims what was done to japanese during WWII. ? I would hate to see that but we cannot continue to put up with these kinds of attacks.


We should be severely restricting the migration of Muslims into the US. I would certainly agree with that. The US has nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose by allowing the growth of Muslim communities. Soem may object abnd say it's unfair but it's not about fairness.


You are correct in that it is not a matter of fairness. It is the basis of this country that you are seeking to attack!

We have the same amount to gain from a Muslim immigrant as any other.

Should we outlaw converting to Islam as well?

Mister D
09-29-2011, 11:15 AM
BOSTON (AP) — A man was arrested Wednesday and accused of plotting an assault on the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol using remote-controlled aircraft armed with explosives — the latest of several terrorism cases to spring from federal sting operations.

Asked at one point about possibly killing women and children, Ferdaus allegedly said all unbelievers of Islam were his enemies.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-us-man-planned-blow-pentagon-210116487.html

seems like these radicals won't quit until they plunge the whole world into a religious war.. do they want america to do to all muslims what was done to japanese during WWII. ? I would hate to see that but we cannot continue to put up with these kinds of attacks.


We should be severely restricting the migration of Muslims into the US. I would certainly agree with that. The US has nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose by allowing the growth of Muslim communities. Soem may object abnd say it's unfair but it's not about fairness.


You are correct in that it is not a matter of fairness. It is the basis of this country that you are seeking to attack!

We have the same amount to gain from a Muslim immigrant as any other.

Should we outlaw converting to Islam as well?


What is the basis of this country? ??? Hopefully this won't provoke some inane "nation of immigrants" comment...

Nonsense. All immigrants do not even come close to offering the same benefits to this society. Yeah, Chinese programmers and grade school educated Mestizo lettuce pickers really fill the same niche in our society. You're a grown man and an otherwise intelligent human being. Do you actually believe this stuff?

Strawman.

Conley
09-29-2011, 11:54 AM
What if it's a Muslim programmer?

How do you feel about LoVE's idea to round them all up and put them in camps?

Mister D
09-29-2011, 12:03 PM
What if it's a Muslim programmer?

How do you feel about LoVE's idea to round them all up and put them in camps?


We have nothing whatsoever to gain from allowing a Muslim minority to continue to grow. I don't care if the migrants are programmers or ditch diggers.

LoVE's solution is too extreme.

Conley
09-29-2011, 12:45 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.

Conley
09-29-2011, 01:14 PM
I also believe American Muslims could be a real asset to the U.S. intelligence and the fight against terrorism. We've read about problems with finding enough translators and agents with familiarity of the region. We all agree there is plenty of room for our intel ops to be improved right? Of course these individuals would need to be thoroughly screened, not just because of their backgrounds but because of instances like that which occurred with Bradley Manning.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 01:22 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.


One would reasonably conclude that there will be more as the Muslim community grows and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Yeah, from what I understand there are a significant number of prison conversions particularly among black inmates. To add to your observation, not only don't these converts have any connection to the cause of Islamic extremism they don't even have a historical link with Islam.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 01:24 PM
I also believe American Muslims could be a real asset to the U.S. intelligence and the fight against terrorism. We've read about problems with finding enough translators and agents with familiarity of the region. We all agree there is plenty of room for our intel ops to be improved right? Of course these individuals would need to be thoroughly screened, not just because of their backgrounds but because of instances like that which occurred with Bradley Manning.


I don't doubt it but, IMO, that hardly outweighs the potential danger of a growing Muslim community.

Conley
09-29-2011, 01:59 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.


One would reasonably conclude that there will be more as the Muslim community grows and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Yeah, from what I understand there are a significant number of prison conversions particularly among black inmates. To add to your observation, not only don't these converts have any connection to the cause of Islamic extremism they don't even have a historical link with Islam.


That's a good point. I was thinking specifically of individuals guilty of planning these solo attacks (the guy in Times Square being another) but there are a huge number of prison conversions and those presumably could also end up as part of a cell.

Conley
09-29-2011, 02:02 PM
I also believe American Muslims could be a real asset to the U.S. intelligence and the fight against terrorism. We've read about problems with finding enough translators and agents with familiarity of the region. We all agree there is plenty of room for our intel ops to be improved right? Of course these individuals would need to be thoroughly screened, not just because of their backgrounds but because of instances like that which occurred with Bradley Manning.


I don't doubt it but, IMO, that hardly outweighs the potential danger of a growing Muslim community.


Sure. Those individuals will be few and far between. I'm not saying we should open our borders or even that immigrants would have the potential to fill these roles. I just mean that as a nation we should at least respect our own citizens and recognize the contributions that could be made. If we begin acting like all Muslims are the enemy then we will be hurting ourselves in the long run. It's a big jump from treating say, Iranian Muslims with suspicion to treating our own citizens that way. Just like the airport security screenings, there are smart ways of doing it and it involves critical thinking.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 02:11 PM
I also believe American Muslims could be a real asset to the U.S. intelligence and the fight against terrorism. We've read about problems with finding enough translators and agents with familiarity of the region. We all agree there is plenty of room for our intel ops to be improved right? Of course these individuals would need to be thoroughly screened, not just because of their backgrounds but because of instances like that which occurred with Bradley Manning.


I don't doubt it but, IMO, that hardly outweighs the potential danger of a growing Muslim community.


Sure. Those individuals will be few and far between. I'm not saying we should open our borders or even that immigrants would have the potential to fill these roles. I just mean that as a nation we should at least respect our own citizens and recognize the contributions that could be made. If we begin acting like all Muslims are the enemy then we will be hurting ourselves in the long run. It's a big jump from treating say, Iranian Muslims with suspicion to treating our own citizens that way. Just like the airport security screenings, there are smart ways of doing it and it involves critical thinking.


American citizenship is becoming increasingly meaningless but I agree that we are under a different obligation when it comes to our current citizens. At least for now. On the other hand, I don't think we will be hurting ourselves at all by denying entry to individuals from certain regions. It's just common sense.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 02:13 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.


One would reasonably conclude that there will be more as the Muslim community grows and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Yeah, from what I understand there are a significant number of prison conversions particularly among black inmates. To add to your observation, not only don't these converts have any connection to the cause of Islamic extremism they don't even have a historical link with Islam.


That's a good point. I was thinking specifically of individuals guilty of planning these solo attacks (the guy in Times Square being another) but there are a huge number of prison conversions and those presumably could also end up as part of a cell.


I don't have the fact at hand but I think that has already happened..

Conley
09-29-2011, 02:57 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.


One would reasonably conclude that there will be more as the Muslim community grows and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Yeah, from what I understand there are a significant number of prison conversions particularly among black inmates. To add to your observation, not only don't these converts have any connection to the cause of Islamic extremism they don't even have a historical link with Islam.


That's a good point. I was thinking specifically of individuals guilty of planning these solo attacks (the guy in Times Square being another) but there are a huge number of prison conversions and those presumably could also end up as part of a cell.


I don't have the fact at hand but I think that has already happened..


No doubt...perhaps it was one of the more poorly thought out plots. Many of them seem fairly ridiculous.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 03:22 PM
A surprising number of cases I read about are from American born Muslims. I think many of them are desperate to belong to something, want to stick it to The Man, and probably have some significant mental illness. They end up getting recruited into these things online without really having any real connection to the cause (in terms of family, history, etc.). It's an odd phenomenon.


One would reasonably conclude that there will be more as the Muslim community grows and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Yeah, from what I understand there are a significant number of prison conversions particularly among black inmates. To add to your observation, not only don't these converts have any connection to the cause of Islamic extremism they don't even have a historical link with Islam.


That's a good point. I was thinking specifically of individuals guilty of planning these solo attacks (the guy in Times Square being another) but there are a huge number of prison conversions and those presumably could also end up as part of a cell.


I don't have the fact at hand but I think that has already happened..


No doubt...perhaps it was one of the more poorly thought out plots. Many of them seem fairly ridiculous.


I think that Padilla guy was a prison convery.

Conley
09-29-2011, 03:32 PM
Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois, where he joined the Latin Kings street gang and was arrested several times. During his gang years, he maintained several aliases, such as José Rivera, José Alicea, José Hernandez, and José Ortiz. He was convicted of aggravated assault and manslaughter as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.[2] After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam.[3] One of his early religious instructors was an Islamic teacher who professed a nonviolent philosophy, and Padilla appeared at the time to be faithful to his mentor's teachings.[4] Padilla and Adham Amin Hassoun both attended Masjid Al-Iman mosque in Fort Lauderdale, Florida "for most of the 1990s and were reportedly friends."[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28prisoner%29

Interesting case...he was held as a material witness for 9/11 and accused of plans for a dirty bomb but the actual charges brought were much less significant.

Conley
09-29-2011, 03:35 PM
On November 22, 2005, CNN's front page broke the news that Padilla had been indicted on charges he "conspired to murder, kidnap and maim people overseas."[22] Padilla's lawyer correlated the indictment's timing as avoidance of an impending Supreme Court hearing on the Padilla case: "the administration is seeking to avoid a Supreme Court showdown over the issue".[23] None of the original allegations put forward by the U.S. government three years prior, the claims that held Padilla in the majority in solitary confinement throughout that period, were part of the indictment: "Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced Padilla is being removed from military custody and charged with a series of crimes" and "There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but his lawyers said the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."[24] Considering Padilla was held for years in military custody with no formal charges brought, many were shocked by this move by the George W. Bush presidential administration,[25] and some[who?] reasoned that a repeat of such a process would allow the U.S. government to detain citizens indefinitely without presenting the cause that would eventually be tried.

On September 19, 2011, a three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has thrown out the 17-year prison sentence imposed on Jose Padilla, ruled that the sentence imposed by a Miami federal judge was too lenient, and sent the case back for a new sentencing hearing. The Court said, "Padilla's sentence of 12 years below the low end of the (sentencing) guidelines range reflects a clear error of judgment about the sentencing of this career offender."[47][48]

Mister D
09-29-2011, 03:37 PM
Apparently, Everlast of House of Pain is now a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Islam

Sentence ruled too lenientOn September 19, 2011, a three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has thrown out the 17-year prison sentence imposed on Jose Padilla, ruled that the sentence imposed by a Miami federal judge was too lenient, and sent the case back for a new sentencing hearing. The Court said, "Padilla's sentence of 12 years below the low end of the (sentencing) guidelines range reflects a clear error of judgment about the sentencing of this career offender."[47][48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner)

Edit: I see you already posted this

Mister D
09-29-2011, 03:38 PM
The London bombers were also "home grown" as they say.

Conley
09-29-2011, 03:46 PM
:D House of Pain I remember that video. Is he a terrorist now? Wouldn't surprise me if he has a record but I haven't heard about anything big time.

Conley
09-29-2011, 03:49 PM
The London bombers were also "home grown" as they say.


Yeah, disturbing.

* Mohammad Sidique Khan: aged 30 and of Pakistani descent. Khan detonated his bomb just after leaving Edgware Road on a train travelling toward Paddington, at 8:50 a.m. He lived in Beeston, Leeds, with his wife and young child, where he worked as a learning mentor at a primary school. The blast killed seven people, including Khan himself.

* Shehzad Tanweer: aged 22 and also of Pakistani descent. He detonated a bomb aboard a train travelling between Liverpool Street and Aldgate, at 8:50 a.m. He lived in Leeds with his mother and father, working in a fish and chip shop. He was killed by the explosion along with seven members of the public.

* Germaine Lindsay: 19-year-old Jamaican-born Lindsay detonated his device on a train travelling between King's Cross-St. Pancras and Russell Square, at 8:50 a.m. He lived in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, with his pregnant wife and young son. His blast killed 27 people, including Lindsay himself.

* Hasib Hussain: the youngest of the quartet at 18 years of age, Hussain, who was of Pakistani descent, detonated his bomb on the top deck of a double-decker bus at 9:47 a.m. He lived in Leeds with his brother and sister-in-law. Fourteen people, including Hussain, perished in the explosion in Tavistock Square.

Charles Clarke, Home Secretary when the attacks occurred, described the bombers as "cleanskins," a term describing them as previously unknown to authorities until they carried out their attacks.[7] On the day of the attacks, all four had travelled to Luton, Bedfordshire, by car, then to London by train. They were recorded on CCTV arriving at King's Cross station at about 08:30 am.

On 12 July 2005, the BBC reported that the Metropolitan Police Service's anti-terrorism chief Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke had said that property belonging to one of the bombers had been found at both the Aldgate and Edgware Road blasts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings#Profiles

Mister D
09-29-2011, 03:54 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.

Conley
09-29-2011, 03:58 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 05:29 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.

Conley
09-29-2011, 05:34 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


Not poor, just isolated. Some of them just have these out there have ridiculous dreams of planning to set off a dirty bomb without having any access to materials or something similarly far-fetched. The four you mentioned obviously were quite different and part of a coordinated plot.

Conley
09-29-2011, 05:36 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


There have been many suicide bombers who were desperately poor and their families were promised benefit from the act.

Conley
09-29-2011, 05:37 PM
Interesting article about the psychology:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/what-motivates-suicide-bombers-0

Mister D
09-29-2011, 05:54 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


There have been many suicide bombers who were desperately poor and their families were promised benefit from the act.


No doubt. There have also been mentally handicapped suicide bombers who were preyed upon by Palestinian heroes. How many of the 19 9/11 hijackers or the London savages could be characterized as desperately poor?

Mister D
09-29-2011, 05:56 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


Not poor, just isolated. Some of them just have these out there have ridiculous dreams of planning to set off a dirty bomb without having any access to materials or something similarly far-fetched. The four you mentioned obviously were quite different and part of a coordinated plot.


I'd imagine that some may be isolated loners looking for something to believe in but I also believe that's a bit of a cliche. I think some of these guys are intelligent men who genuinely believe in that they are doing.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 05:58 PM
Interesting article about the psychology:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/what-motivates-suicide-bombers-0


Some of it seems rather obvious though.

Conley
09-29-2011, 06:06 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


Not poor, just isolated. Some of them just have these out there have ridiculous dreams of planning to set off a dirty bomb without having any access to materials or something similarly far-fetched. The four you mentioned obviously were quite different and part of a coordinated plot.


I'd imagine that some may be isolated loners looking for something to believe in but I also believe that's a bit of a cliche. I think some of these guys are intelligent men who genuinely believe in that they are doing.


Yeah, there are enough instances of both probably. I believe a lot of the intelligent guys plan the attacks but they aren't the ones to carry it out. Some of that article is pretty obvious, but it also notes that they tend to isolate the suicide bombers to keep them from losing their nerve by spending time with family.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 06:09 PM
I didn't know one of the guys was Jamaican.


This kind of blows my 'loser' theory to hell too, a couple of these guys had wives and kids. Sick fucks.



I'm surprised you would think that. Many terrorists are educated and come from relatively well off families. More often than not these aren't desperately poor people.


Not poor, just isolated. Some of them just have these out there have ridiculous dreams of planning to set off a dirty bomb without having any access to materials or something similarly far-fetched. The four you mentioned obviously were quite different and part of a coordinated plot.


I'd imagine that some may be isolated loners looking for something to believe in but I also believe that's a bit of a cliche. I think some of these guys are intelligent men who genuinely believe in that they are doing.


Yeah, there are enough instances of both probably. I believe a lot of the intelligent guys plan the attacks but they aren't the ones to carry it out. Some of that article is pretty obvious, but it also notes that they tend to isolate the suicide bombers to keep them from losing their nerve by spending time with family.


In Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine that's probably true. I know it is in Palestine. The cells in the west though seem different.

Conley
09-29-2011, 06:11 PM
True. That is an important distinction as well.

Mister D
09-29-2011, 06:13 PM
True. That is an important distinction as well.


I'm curious if they are recruited here or if the came here with this in mind no matter vague it was at the time of their entry into the US.

Conley
09-29-2011, 06:15 PM
True. That is an important distinction as well.


I'm curious if they are recruited here or if the came here with this in mind no matter vague it was at the time of their entry into the US.


Yes that is a good question.

For me the "home grown" London attack is the most disturbing example of all.