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Chris
10-18-2012, 06:49 PM
Other night in another thread a liberal raised the Sweden canard once again, in short, that we should look at Sweden as example of how well a socialist country can do. OK, let's look...


...Sweden has been advancing rapidly since its disastrous 25-year experiment with Socialism led to a change of course in the early 1990s. Since 1993, while cutting its debt from 73 percent of GDP to 37 percent, its economy has been growing at an impressive 2.8 percent a year — slightly ahead of the U.S.A.’s 2.5 percent. Per capita GDP hit a low of 72 percent of U.S. GDP in the 1990s, but has since been skyrocketing and now stands at nearly 84 percent of U.S. GDP.

Swedish austerity is freeing up more and more of the private sector’s wealth creation engine while the U.S. goes in the opposite direction, spending itself deeper into debt and allowing more and more of GDP to be tied up in the inefficiencies of the public sector....

“When individuals and families get to keep more their income,” reasoned a statement accompanying the government’s budget, “their independence and their opportunities to shape their own lives also increase.” That sounds like the opposite of Keynesianism. It sounds like common sense.

Read more @ No Matter Who Wins On 11/6, Disgruntled Americans Will Move To...Sweden (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kylesmith/2012/10/11/no-matter-who-wins-on-116-disgruntled-americans-will-move-to-sweden/).


"its economy has been growing" in the above citation is a reference to:


Sweden, like Norway, is often held up as a country which is "socialist and successful."

In July I deconstructed the Norwegian "Miracle," the other "socialist and successful" country. It's Sweden's turn now....

And how did that "socialism" work for Sweden? Its economy grew only 1.4% per year from 1980 to 1993, when the U.S. was growing 3.0% per year. And over those last five years, 1988-1993, it stopped growing altogether -- 0% growth. It fell farther behind the U.S: from 81% as rich to 72% as rich. Its debt grew to 70% of GDP....

Around 1993, Sweden's government changed its behavior: it started spending less....

That is what I call "austerity": the government simply spending less. And how did that work out for Sweden? Since 1993, its economy grew 2.8% per year, or double its previous rate, while ours grew only 2.5% per year. Its debt was cut from a high of 73% of GDP to 37%....

http://i.snag.gy/aPCrb.jpg

http://i.snag.gy/wROYk.jpg

Read more @ The Swedish Model: Government Austerity (http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/the_swedish_model_government_austerity.html)



"Norwegian "Miracle" in the above citation is a reference to.... Well, I'll let you read that @ The Norwegian 'Miracle' (http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/the_norwegian_miracle.html).

Peter1469
10-18-2012, 06:53 PM
The liberals aren't going to like this, one bit.....

Chris
10-18-2012, 07:38 PM
Right, it seems their canard has turned into a petard.

http://i.snag.gy/9stVB.jpg

Mister D
10-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Where is Joaquin?

Chris
10-19-2012, 05:00 PM
Where is Joaquin?

Let's say taking a break.


That third link, Norwegian Miracle, looks at the homegenirty aspect of Norway that you and Maine and I and others have pointed out:
So the simple-minded story is that Norway is some great socialist state yet its economy is humming along just nicely. Let me summarize its real keys to prosperity.


A tiny, non-diverse, predominantly white and Christian population.
Drilling in its ocean for oil to become one of the biggest oil exporters on the planet, and the biggest by far on a per capita basis, all during a time when oil prices quintupled.
Letting its carbon footprint grow at one of the fastest paces in Europe, a pace almost five times faster than the U.S.'s.
Shrinking its government spending, the equivalent to the U.S. federal government cutting its spending in half over 16 years. Shrinking its government spending to about the level of the U.S.'s, and smaller than most of Europe's.
A tax system that is flatter than flat; it is regressive -- the rich pay less than the non-rich.

Deadwood
10-19-2012, 05:26 PM
What they should be pointing to is not socialism, but a free enterprise system with a social safety net.

Canada has its problems, but has walked through the recession and economic downturn where the US, on the same continent, has limped and stumbled. The Canadian Conservative government has lowered tax rates that ultimately increased tax based revenue, and increased spending, reduced regulations and helped drive the economy. The result is an economy skyrocketing in comparison to the US, half the unemployment, although it has been rising the last two months.

The US has always resisted any idea of looking outside its own borders for solutions to its problems where Canada openly fishes for solutions, cherry picking what will work here and rejecting what doesn't.

The country needs to sharpen up on its medical care delivery system, get a handle on the education system - which is still far superior to the US, and quit obsessing on a crime problem that doesn't exist. They spent a billion dollars on a gun registry system where every gun owner had to pay a fee to be on a federal registry accessible to all police forces. They failed as the software could not be developed all the while less than 3% of the population owns guns, most of them hunters in the north. They also hit a constitutional snag in that First Nations have a right to own guns as a cultural thing.

Finally they need to stop using the national criminal code to stop drug lords and manufacturers and drive the provinces to use the agricultural and manufacturing laws to impose extreme financial penalties.

OK, I'm don't with that rant....

Mister D
10-20-2012, 09:41 AM
Let's say taking a break.


That third link, Norwegian Miracle, looks at the homegenirty aspect of Norway that you and Maine and I and others have pointed out:

Good info. I'll keep this in mind when and if Sweden comes up again. :grin:

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 04:43 PM
Chris, is Sweden today more or less socialist than the USA?

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 04:47 PM
What they should be pointing to is not socialism, but a free enterprise system with a social safety net.



Of course. The problem in the USA is that we are a nation of loudmouthed idiots, who on one side want to embrace pure socialism, and on the other side want anarcho-capitalism.

Ignorant, hateful, and just plain stupid people abound in this country. And they get the government they deserve.

garyo
10-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Easy solution would be term limits on politicians and the vast majority of this waste would come to a halt because lobbyist wouldn't be able to do business as usual and the good old boy system would be severely weakened.

Peter1469
10-20-2012, 05:17 PM
Chris, is Sweden today more or less socialist than the USA?

The more telling question is which direction each country is heading....

Chris
10-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Exactly, Sweden, Norway and much of Europe are abandoning failing social democracy while we pursue it.

Chris
10-20-2012, 05:21 PM
Of course. The problem in the USA is that we are a nation of loudmouthed idiots, who on one side want to embrace pure socialism, and on the other side want anarcho-capitalism.

Ignorant, hateful, and just plain stupid people abound in this country. And they get the government they deserve.


Nice name calling, now did you have an argument?

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 05:56 PM
Nice name calling, now did you have an argument?

No. That was a statement.

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 05:58 PM
The more telling question is which direction each country is heading....

Not really.

For example, let's say paradise exists at a certain point on the map. If you are east of paradise, you should be traveling westward, but, if you continue traveling westward after reaching paradise, you have gone from heading in the right direction to heading in the wrong direction.

See what I mean?

Peter1469
10-20-2012, 06:16 PM
Not really.

For example, let's say paradise exists at a certain point on the map. If you are east of paradise, you should be traveling westward, but, if you continue traveling westward after reaching paradise, you have gone from heading in the right direction to heading in the wrong direction.

See what I mean?


Oh sure.

Just wrong analogy. Sweden and other Western European states have discovered that their socialist programs are unsustainable and are move away from them. We are doubling down on them.

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 06:19 PM
Oh sure.

Just wrong analogy. Sweden and other Western European states have discovered that their socialist programs are unsustainable and are move away from them. We are doubling down on them.

I understand what you are saying. But we can't simplify it as "moving right", or "moving left", unless we know the starting point.

Keep moving right far enough, and you're in bed with Hitler. I prefer the middle way, personally...

Peter1469
10-20-2012, 06:26 PM
I understand what you are saying. But we can't simplify it as "moving right", or "moving left", unless we know the starting point.

Keep moving right far enough, and you're in bed with Hitler. I prefer the middle way, personally...

Hitler was far left with the totalitarians.

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Hitler was far left with the totalitarians.

Ok.

I don't know if I have the energy for that argument tonight, lol...

Peter1469
10-20-2012, 06:37 PM
Ok.

I don't know if I have the energy for that argument tonight, lol...

I use this version of the political paradigm when considering only a 2 dimensional model.

Left = total government control
Right = anarchy.

Start on the right, add bits of government as you move left.

Chris
10-20-2012, 08:48 PM
No. That was a statement.

Ah, ok, then, nice name calling statement. Did you have an argument?

Chris
10-20-2012, 08:51 PM
Not really.

For example, let's say paradise exists at a certain point on the map. If you are east of paradise, you should be traveling westward, but, if you continue traveling westward after reaching paradise, you have gone from heading in the right direction to heading in the wrong direction.

See what I mean?


There is no Paradise, never has been, never will be. That's the problem with your analogy.

East of Eden was a great movie though.

Chris
10-20-2012, 08:55 PM
I use this version of the political paradigm when considering only a 2 dimensional model.

Left = total government control
Right = anarchy.

Start on the right, add bits of government as you move left.

One dimension that. I often say it that way too, but...


Two would separate them out into a square or diamond:

http://i.snag.gy/ruPMI.jpg


Three... Positive & Negative Liberties in Three Dimensions (http://www.friesian.com/quiz.htm):

http://i.snag.gy/qLLLC.jpg

Three dimensions is what I posted about Friedman in his preface to Freedom and Capitalism.

Three dimensions is needed to understand China, and Sweden and Norway.

Peter1469
10-20-2012, 09:24 PM
One dimension that. I often say it that way too, but...


Two would separate them out into a square or diamond:

http://i.snag.gy/ruPMI.jpg


Three... Positive & Negative Liberties in Three Dimensions (http://www.friesian.com/quiz.htm):

http://i.snag.gy/qLLLC.jpg

Three dimensions is what I posted about Friedman in his preface to Freedom and Capitalism.

Three dimensions is needed to understand China, and Sweden and Norway.

Right. But my 2 dimension version is easy to use in a one sentence argument. Left = total government. Right = anarchy. Your models are over most people's heads.

Chris
10-20-2012, 10:04 PM
Right. But my 2 dimension version is easy to use in a one sentence argument. Left = total government. Right = anarchy. Your models are over most people's heads.

But that seems also to confuse some such that they associate right and liberty, left and government.

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 10:14 PM
There is no Paradise, never has been, never will be. That's the problem with your analogy.

East of Eden was a great movie though.
And I was certain that some fool would post that silly retort...

Morningstar
10-20-2012, 10:15 PM
There is no Paradise, never has been, never will be. That's the problem with your analogy.

East of Eden was a great movie though.
And I was certain that some fool would post that silly retort...

And no, it wasn't a great movie. But it is a great novel...

Chris
10-22-2012, 06:20 AM
And I was certain that some fool would post that silly retort...

And no, it wasn't a great movie. But it is a great novel...

So simple almost silly to simply call something silly. Pray, tell us why? So far to bolster you're argument all you have going is a logical fallacy.

(Agree the book's better but the movie more popular and familiar.)

Chris
10-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Let's follow this up with an example of socialist failure.


...The majority of Danish politicians intuitively believe that capitalists are an unpleasant necessity to generate the revenues to fund the social welfare state. Denmark has the highest total tax pressure in the world and is towering far above the European average. It also has the smallest private sector in Europe, one that supports one of the biggest public sectors. Add to that a generous entitlement system allowing unemployed and unemployable citizens an income well above that achieved by full time employees in the private sector in many European countries, and you will observe a need for tax revenues nearly unmatched anywhere else in the world.

...The recent rise of socialists that continue to hand out huge public expenditures combined with the broadly supported tax reform is going nowhere in terms of really moving the dial between public and private sectors. Even more, it highlights the fundamental challenges of a social welfare society, and the extreme vulnerability of business and capitalism operating within it.

In order to undertake a friendly business policy, one would need to gain the support of an overwhelming majority that in the short term would have to accept lower public expenditures and cut back on many of their perceived “rights” and entitlements. But rather than implement actual changes to the system, both voters and politicians like to create the illusion of reforms and security....

...So is there really any hope for reforms, rationality, courage and capitalism in a welfare society? The answer is no....

So if there is no hope for reforms of the welfare society, the next question must be whether capitalism can exist or co-exist in the long-term in a social welfare state. Essentially, the answer has to be no. A social welfare society that wants to embrace and benefit from some form of real capitalism in the long run will need to: set very stringent parameters for the amount of welfare available to its citizens as a percentage of GDP; set a maximum limit for taxation and government debt levels; secure strong fundamental incentives written into a constitution; and, secure basic negative rights for its individual citizens.

In addition, it will need to embrace a different rhetoric and give up on equality of outcome as a key objective. It needs to welcome, encourage and praise large contributors to the economy rather than vilify them and berate them for populist purposes. It needs to demand responsibility from the citizens for their own economic situation and be very firm on abuse or exploitation of public support or services. It needs to stop victimizing large groups of the society and stop pricing them out of employment through minimum wages and similar initiatives. It needs to stop its politicians corrupting the democratic process through bribing particular voter groups to gain power....

The article ends by pointing out that the 2012 Economic Freedom of the World report ranked America’s economic freedom at 18th place, behind Denmark.

Read all @ European Socialism: Why America Doesn't Want It (http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/)

Chris
02-06-2013, 09:40 AM
Another article on this topic:


SMALLISH countries are often in the vanguard when it comes to reforming government. In the 1980s Britain was out in the lead, thanks to Thatcherism and privatisation. Tiny Singapore has long been a role model for many reformers. Now the Nordic countries are likely to assume a similar role.

...The idea of lean Nordic government will come as a shock both to French leftists who dream of socialist Scandinavia and to American conservatives who fear that Barack Obama is bent on “Swedenisation”. They are out of date. In the 1970s and 1980s the Nordics were indeed tax-and-spend countries. Sweden’s public spending reached 67% of GDP in 1993. Astrid Lindgren, the inventor of Pippi Longstocking, was forced to pay more than 100% of her income in taxes. But tax-and-spend did not work: Sweden fell from being the fourth-richest country in the world in 1970 to the 14th in 1993.

Since then the Nordics have changed course—mainly to the right. Government’s share of GDP in Sweden, which has dropped by around 18 percentage points, is lower than France’s and could soon be lower than Britain’s. Taxes have been cut: the corporate rate is 22%, far lower than America’s. The Nordics have focused on balancing the books. While Mr Obama and Congress dither over entitlement reform, Sweden has reformed its pension system (see Free exchange). Its budget deficit is 0.3% of GDP; America’s is 7%.

On public services the Nordics have been similarly pragmatic. So long as public services work, they do not mind who provides them. Denmark and Norway allow private firms to run public hospitals. Sweden has a universal system of school vouchers, with private for-profit schools competing with public schools. Denmark also has vouchers—but ones that you can top up. When it comes to choice, Milton Friedman would be more at home in Stockholm than in Washington, DC.

All Western politicians claim to promote transparency and technology....

But there is something yet for progressives, well, sort of...


This may sound like enhanced Thatcherism, but the Nordics also offer something for the progressive left by proving that it is possible to combine competitive capitalism with a large state: they employ 30% of their workforce in the public sector, compared with an OECD average of 15%. They are stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies: Sweden let Saab go bankrupt and Volvo is now owned by China’s Geely. But they also focus on the long term—most obviously through Norway’s $600 billion sovereign-wealth fund—and they look for ways to temper capitalism’s harsher effects. Denmark, for instance, has a system of “flexicurity” that makes it easier for employers to sack people but provides support and training for the unemployed, and Finland organises venture-capital networks.

@ The next supermodel (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-both-right-and-left-could-learn-nordic-countries-next-supermodel)

Carygrant
02-06-2013, 12:34 PM
Acutely funny Topic built on Tea Party type propaganda releases .
The one person blog on which this Topic is based writes in a Conservative rag and the author is an engineer .More later , if I can summon up the interest .
In the mean time , a few hard facts to place the drivel in perspective :-



The World Economic Forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum) 2009–2010 competitiveness index ranks Sweden the 4th most competitive economy in the world. In the World Economic Forum 2010–2011 Global Competitiveness Report, Sweden climbed two positions, and is now ranked 2nd in the world. Sweden is ranked 6th in the IMD Competitiveness Yearbook 2009, scoring high in private sector efficiency According to the book, The Flight of the Creative Class, by the U.S. economist, Professor Richard Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Florida) of the University of Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto), Sweden is ranked as having the best creativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity) in Europe for business and is predicted to become a talent magnet for the world's most purposeful workers. The book compiled an index to measure the kind of creativity it claims is most useful to business—talent, technology and tolerance.
Sweden maintains its own currency, the Swedish krona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_krona) (SEK), a result of the Swedes having rejected the euro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) in a referendum. The Swedish Riksbank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_Riksbank)—founded in 1668 and thus making it the oldest central bank in the world—is currently focusing on price stability with an inflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation) target of 2%. According to the Economic Survey of Sweden 2007 by the OECD, the average inflation in Sweden has been one of the lowest among European countries since the mid-1990sYeah .

A real crummy place to live in . ROFL

Chris
02-06-2013, 12:37 PM
Acutely funny Topic built on Tea Party type propaganda releases .
The one person blog on which this Topic is based writes in a Conservative rag and the author is an engineer .More later , if I can summon up the interest .
In the mean time , a few hard facts to place the drivel in perspective :-



The World Economic Forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum) 2009–2010 competitiveness index ranks Sweden the 4th most competitive economy in the world. In the World Economic Forum 2010–2011 Global Competitiveness Report, Sweden climbed two positions, and is now ranked 2nd in the world. Sweden is ranked 6th in the IMD Competitiveness Yearbook 2009, scoring high in private sector efficiency According to the book, The Flight of the Creative Class, by the U.S. economist, Professor Richard Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Florida) of the University of Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto), Sweden is ranked as having the best creativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity) in Europe for business and is predicted to become a talent magnet for the world's most purposeful workers. The book compiled an index to measure the kind of creativity it claims is most useful to business—talent, technology and tolerance.
Sweden maintains its own currency, the Swedish krona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_krona) (SEK), a result of the Swedes having rejected the euro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) in a referendum. The Swedish Riksbank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_Riksbank)—founded in 1668 and thus making it the oldest central bank in the world—is currently focusing on price stability with an inflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation) target of 2%. According to the Economic Survey of Sweden 2007 by the OECD, the average inflation in Sweden has been one of the lowest among European countries since the mid-1990s

I don't get the ad hom in your first paragraph when your second paragraph just repeats and verifies the point of the latest article posted in this thread, post #30. Perhaps you could clarify, which is your point for the same of discussion here.

Mister D
02-06-2013, 01:07 PM
It appears that Cary did not get passed your opening remarks in post #1 and thus missed the point entirely.

Mister D
02-06-2013, 01:10 PM
Let me add that his comment was entirely unserious.

Chris
02-06-2013, 01:28 PM
It appears that Cary did not get passed your opening remarks in post #1 and thus missed the point entirely.

Ah, like reading just headlines.

But his second paragraph does support the entire point here, that as nations move toward socialism they fall in various economic indices, and as they move toward freer markets they rise. We used to be much higher than we are now, we started to fall during the Bush Era and continue to do so under Obama.

Mister D
02-06-2013, 01:36 PM
Ah, like reading just headlines.

But his second paragraph does support the entire point here, that as nations move toward socialism they fall in various economic indices, and as they move toward freer markets they rise. We used to be much higher than we are now, we started to fall during the Bush Era and continue to do so under Obama.

Exactly. He proceeded to support both the article and the author he disparaged. :laugh: Only Carygrant...