Who comes up with this crap?

[spunkloaf]

Post images or texts here which you find to be abhorrent, misleading or obnoxious; then get ready for some debate because others here may not think it is so bad. :)

[spunkloaf]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314930_2401363549185_1103963452_32990333_80552113_ n.jpg

I'll start. Who comes up with this crap? Ok, dumb question, apparently it's "AiG Creations" or AnswersInGenesis.org. But who thinks this portrays an accurate model of the differences between God's word and man's opinion? Really, who? God never said he's against evolution. God never said he's against homosexual behavior. God never even said he's against abortion. "Laws" can even be brought to question. So, this looks like it's just all another extension of man's opinion, and God remains mute.

[Mister D]

Protestant fundies I'd imagine. I'm sure a trip to their website would answer all of your questions.

[Conley]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314930_2401363549185_1103963452_32990333_80552113_ n.jpg

I'll start. Who comes up with this crap? Ok, dumb question, apparently it's "AiG Creations" or AnswersInGenesis.org. But who thinks this portrays an accurate model of the differences between God's word and man's opinion? Really, who? God never said he's against evolution. God never said he's against homosexual behavior. God never even said he's against abortion. "Laws" can even be brought to question. So, this looks like it's just all another extension of man's opinion, and God remains mute.


How did you find this Spunk? It doesn't make much sense. The phrases on the right are supposed to be the opposite of those on the left?

[spunkloaf]

I asked myself the same thing, Conley. Does any of it make sense? Not really, looks like it was created to cater to the dumbshit mindset of thoughtless bible thumpers. This is definitely an instance of man creating God.

[spunkloaf]

Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.

[Mister D]

I asked myself the same thing, Conley. Does any of it make sense? Not really, looks like it was created to cater to the dumbshit mindset of thoughtless bible thumpers. This is definitely an instance of man creating God.


The last 3 make sense and the 4th kind of. I don't understand the first two.

[Conley]

I asked myself the same thing, Conley. Does any of it make sense? Not really, looks like it was created to cater to the dumbshit mindset of thoughtless bible thumpers. This is definitely an instance of man creating God.


Or definitely an instance of man creating a crappy nonsensical graphic ;)

[Conley]

Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.

[Mister D]

Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.


Instead of harassing your friend about his religious faith you decided to harass the readers here. Good choice.

[Conley]

I suppose they meant creationism.



Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.


Why not invite him here to discuss it? >:D

[Mister D]

Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.


They don't have to be but to Protestant fundies they are.

[Mister D]

I suppose they meant creationism.



Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.


Why not invite him here to discuss it? >:D


Now that's an idea and you will recruit someone at the same time. 8)

[Conley]

Spunk is going to win the contest ;)





Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.


They don't have to be but to Protestant fundies they are.


Do they believe the Bible literally?

[Mister D]

Spunk is going to win the contest ;)





Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.


They don't have to be but to Protestant fundies they are.


Do they believe the Bible literally?


Yeah. They are most definitely biblical literalists.

[Conley]

Spunk is going to win the contest ;)





Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.


They don't have to be but to Protestant fundies they are.


Do they believe the Bible literally?


Yeah. They are most definitely biblical literalists.


Ah, I didn't check out the website.

[Mister D]

Spunk is going to win the contest ;)





Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive. I believe in both of them and don't have a conflict.


They don't have to be but to Protestant fundies they are.


Do they believe the Bible literally?


Yeah. They are most definitely biblical literalists.


Ah, I didn't check out the website.


Generally speaking, that is. I haven't looked either but that's the only reason I can thin of that they would say such a thing.

[Conley]

No doubt you're right.

[Mister D]

No doubt you're right.


Now why the religious beliefs of his fellow Americans rile Spunkloaf up so much I don't know. ::) ;D

[Conley]

Well, if friends are damning his sexual orientation I can understand why he'd be upset. I dunno though.

[Mister D]

Well, if friends are damning his sexual orientation I can understand why he'd be upset. I dunno though.


I can see why he would disagree with them obviously but to each his own right?

[Conley]

Well, if friends are damning his sexual orientation I can understand why he'd be upset. I dunno though.


I can see why he would disagree with them obviously but to each his own right?


Sure, anyone can believe what they want. If it really bothered me I think I would just make new friends.

This is all hypothetical of course, because I am not Spunk. ;)

[Mister D]

Well, if friends are damning his sexual orientation I can understand why he'd be upset. I dunno though.


I can see why he would disagree with them obviously but to each his own right?


Sure, anyone can believe what they want. If it really bothered me I think I would just make new friends.

This is all hypothetical of course, because I am not Spunk. ;)


I think that, in one sense at least, we're all Spunk. ;)

[Conley]

Well, if friends are damning his sexual orientation I can understand why he'd be upset. I dunno though.


I can see why he would disagree with them obviously but to each his own right?


Sure, anyone can believe what they want. If it really bothered me I think I would just make new friends.

This is all hypothetical of course, because I am not Spunk. ;)


I think that, in one sense at least, we're all Spunk. ;)


That's true too. We are all Spunk and he is all us.

:weedsmoking:

[wingrider]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314930_2401363549185_1103963452_32990333_80552113_ n.jpg

I'll start. Who comes up with this crap? Ok, dumb question, apparently it's "AiG Creations" or AnswersInGenesis.org. But who thinks this portrays an accurate model of the differences between God's word and man's opinion? Really, who? God never said he's against evolution. God never said he's against homosexual behavior. God never even said he's against abortion. "Laws" can even be brought to question. So, this looks like it's just all another extension of man's opinion, and God remains mute.


ok I will bite.

it seems you are not up on things that God has said maybe I can clue you in .

Homosexuality..

Leviticus 18:22 - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 - If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Romans 1:26-27 - For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
I Corinthians 6:9(NIV) - Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB) - "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."
Jude 1:6-7 (NASB) - And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

now if you are able to wave bye bye by the time you are 18 you should be able to figure this out.

evolution..

depends on what you mean by it..

do you mean man evolved from a single cell omeaba .. No man was created by God as a special creation in Gods image,, In genesis God speaks all of creation into existance but when it came to Man he Formed man and breathed into him a living soul.. The difference between Man and all other animals is We have the spirit of god within us.

Now if you mean the 6 days that are spoken of as the creation of the world and everything in it, who is to say how long each day was in Gods timeframe.

we do not know wheter it was a literal 24 hr day or whether each day was a million years.

take for exaple the first day,

And God said let there be light, that doesn't mean the sun because the sun wasn't hung in space until the 4th day.
the first day of light could have been the beginning of the Big Bang theory.

Abortion:

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!

Dear reader, please answer a question: What is an "infant?" Get the answer in your mind and keep it there for a moment. Do you have it? Okay, please consider Job 3:16: "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light." Did you see that? Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses! Not masses of tissue! INFANTS! In God's eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being.

David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.

The same is the case in Psalm 139:13-16:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Who was in the womb? David! A literal and living person. The Bible never uses anything less than human terms to describe the unborn.

Notice that in Jeremiah 1:5 we are told that God KNEW Jeremiah:"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

To further confirm the fact that God views the unborn child as a person, please consider Exodus 21:22-23:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"

If the woman has a premature birth and the child lives ("no mischief follows"), then there's no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: "thou shalt give life for life." Why would God require the death penalty if He didn't consider the unborn child to be a human being?

Friend, like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

[spunkloaf]

Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.


Instead of harassing your friend about his religious faith you decided to harass the readers here. Good choice.


I can bring it up here because there is anonymity here, and people's feelings (probably) won't get hurt. What's your idea of harassment? Dare I ask?

[spunkloaf]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(

[Mister D]

Oh, to answer your question, a friend of mine posted it on Facebook. Instead of giving him shit publicly about it, I decided to quietly protest it here, where he can never see it.


Instead of harassing your friend about his religious faith you decided to harass the readers here. Good choice.


I can bring it up here because there is anonymity here, and people's feelings (probably) won't get hurt. What's your idea of harassment? Dare I ask?


I would call constant diatribes directed toward Christianity harassment but they don;t bother me. What does bother me is when yuo are called on it and get defensive.

[Mister D]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


How do you know that's the truth? What's logical about your position?

What do you believe about life Spunkloaf?

[spunkloaf]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


How do you know that's the truth? What's logical about your position?

What do you believe about life Spunkloaf?


What if God does exist the way Christianity portrays it? Fact: God has never made his presence known to us in any sort of way in the past or present, discounting ancient hearsay accounts which can't be totally reliable. If he truly did, none of us would have any qualms over how it happened, if it happened, when or why it happened, etc. It would be an eternal heavenly signal which would make itself known through and through. Every one of us would have a unified understanding of spirituality, and the world would be that much closer to perfect. This would be true of any religion, if any one of them was "correct." Yet here we're all divided, and we have wars, and we have distrust. Either God does exist and is really cruel, or he doesn't exist the traditional wat we think he does or even at all.

Logic brings me there.

[wingrider]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


then with all due respect if you refuse to accept the bible as the word of God then there is nothing to debate here.. thanks anyway

[MMC]

I guess the real point would be in bringing up.....does one believe in the afterlife. Despite religion or whether it was passed down from the belief of a Creator and or GOD. Or even thru the misconception of that some Superior beings created us and are Aliens. Even if you believe that from science we evolved from some speck of dirt.

That the Creator that created it all.....and that here you are and you live this one physical tiny miniscule fraction of a moment in all of this grand creation; and thats it? Done your life energy snuffed out forever. Never to be thought of or made again.

Yet what do we know.....We know that in many Ancient Civilizations that all have one thing in common. That man is more than just his physical self. With those from the beginning. Man has a spirit, and or soul. To the present, day and age. Man is made out energy. This is not one or two or even 3-5 Ancient Civilizations. It is all of them. It is not like Ancient man just sat back and said oh your dead. It's over. Life goes on for the rest of us.

Man was looking into what was going on with death. Was there still presence of that spirit, soul and or energy. Did it stay, change, dissipatate. We know they looked into these things as there were occurences of things that took place and gave rise to speculation of theory. Egyptians and others talk of death only being the beginning. Knowing or what they think they know is an afterlife. Or the next stage of the journey. There are many that do. Some thru religion as we all know. Also we know today that energy is not destroyed.

[spunkloaf]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


then with all due respect if you refuse to accept the bible as the word of God then there is nothing to debate here.. thanks anyway


That guilt tactic does not work with me. I use it at work all the time. "You refuse to....." In this case, there is no argument to be had. God is either there, or he is not. It would be illogical that God would hide himself and cause all this confusion. If God exists, then he would make it known and ease our woes. Yet he does not, and people have wars over something which we cannot understand. People feel so strongly about it. And they should, after all it's fundamental.

That being said, I have a feeling God may exist, yet I accept that I am way too small and my mind is too simple to understand how he manifests himself/itself in the universe as we know it. It's presumptuous to accept one image of God and shut out all others.

The fact that we are living beings and we have consciousness is the closest thing to a miracle as I can find, simply because it is the least typical phenomenon we know of. Out of all the matter we've observed in the universe so far, collectively we are the only clumps of matter capable of thinking and doing things with a conscience that we've found so far. That says something about how precious we are, but doesn't speak to why we are the way we are, or how we've developed.

[Conley]

That being said, I have a feeling God may exist, yet I accept that I am way too small and my mind is too simple to understand how he manifests himself/itself in the universe as we know it. It's presumptuous to accept one image of God and shut out all others.

The fact that we are living beings and we have consciousness is the closest thing to a miracle as I can find, simply because it is the least typical phenomenon we know of. Out of all the matter we've observed in the universe so far, collectively we are the only clumps of matter capable of thinking and doing things with a conscience that we've found so far. That says something about how precious we are, but doesn't speak to why we are the way we are, or how we've developed.


I agree with most of that. Well said Spunk.

[Conley]

Also, how can I guilt people at work into doing what I want? That'd be sweet. Only people I know who get special treatment are the ladies. >:D

[spunkloaf]

I guess the real point would be in bringing up.....does one believe in the afterlife. Despite religion or whether it was passed down from the belief of a Creator and or GOD. Or even thru the misconception of that some Superior beings created us and are Aliens. Even if you believe that from science we evolved from some speck of dirt.

That the Creator that created it all.....and that here you are and you live this one physical tiny miniscule fraction of a moment in all of this grand creation; and thats it? Done your life energy snuffed out forever. Never to be thought of or made again.

Yet what do we know.....We know that in many Ancient Civilizations that all have one thing in common. That man is more than just his physical self. With those from the beginning. Man has a spirit, and or soul. To the present, day and age. Man is made out energy. This is not one or two or even 3-5 Ancient Civilizations. It is all of them. It is not like Ancient man just sat back and said oh your dead. It's over. Life goes on for the rest of us.

Man was looking into what was going on with death. Was there still presence of that spirit, soul and or energy. Did it stay, change, dissipatate. We know they looked into these things as there were occurences of things that took place and gave rise to speculation of theory. Egyptians and others talk of death only being the beginning. Knowing or what they think they know is an afterlife. Or the next stage of the journey. There are many that do. Some thru religion as we all know. Also we know today that energy is not destroyed.


The first step on the path to examining human origin is to accept that we're made of physical matter just like everything else. I would say the second step is to realize that we're animals just as any other animal is an animal. None of this proves or disproves God. Then ask yourself what a soul is. In my eyes, a soul is an extension of our ego, where our consciousness literally fights to exist. We want to believe we can exist beyond death, which is why we create an afterlife. It is very comforting, and it puts to rest many questions about what consciousness is. Doesn't mean it explains it.

Do you remember being born? What happened before it? My guess is the afterlife will be identical to that. *nothingness* Now you have to question your experience, and what it means to be able to see the world for a short period of time inside a huge eternity of nothingness. That's where it gets deep. The human brain can't comprehend the meaning of nothing. Zero does not exist to us. We observe and learn. If there is nothing to observe, there is nothing to learn. It gets stranger when we try to make something of nothing; when reality explodes into existence where once there was a void. It makes no sense to us.

So we create God. Everybody comes to that conclusion eventually, whether religion is a part of their finding or not. If we can't understand it, something greater than us must have a plan for us. I accept that there may be a God. I will not accept that God manifests the way the Bible describes it, because we don't know shit about shit now and we certainly didn't know shit about shit 2000 years ago.

If the Bible makes people feel better about themselves, fine. But there are annoying things about organized religion which have divided us and spawned intolerance. I can't imagine that to be a good thing no matter what light I see it under. So I tolerate organized religion to an extent. When people start to become intolerable with me, or tell me I can't do things because of what they believe in, I have a problem.

[spunkloaf]

Also, how can I guilt people at work into doing what I want? That'd be sweet. Only people I know who get special treatment are the ladies. >:D


I'm a debt collector. When I'm on the phone, I hold up a mirror to people. Metaphorically. They know what is being demanded without me saying it. I ask them straight up "Are you refusing to pay this?" The answer is almost always "no," at which point I offer solutions to paying immediately. If they refuse, I step back to "So you are refusing to pay this?" Once you shape people's choices and show them black and white, it's difficult for them to say no. "Not now" is not an option which exists to me, yet every debtor thinks that is the way out of the conversation. As if I'm going to accept that and call back at a later point in time, just so they can tell me "Not now" yet again. Present things in black and white to people, force them to make a decision. You can't neglect your bills and make it look like you're in good faith all in one package. You're either a good citizen who pays when it's expected, or you don't pay and get labeled as a promise breaker. People want the best of both worlds. We're all gluttons for a good reputation.

[Conley]

Also, how can I guilt people at work into doing what I want? That'd be sweet. Only people I know who get special treatment are the ladies. >:D


I'm a debt collector. When I'm on the phone, I hold up a mirror to people. Metaphorically. They know what is being demanded without me saying it. I ask them straight up "Are you refusing to pay this?" The answer is almost always "no," at which point I offer solutions to paying immediately. If they refuse, I step back to "So you are refusing to pay this?" Once you shape people's choices and show them black and white, it's difficult for them to say no. "Not now" is not an option which exists to me, yet every debtor thinks that is the way out of the conversation. As if I'm going to accept that and call back at a later point in time, just so they can tell me "Not now" yet again. Present things in black and white to people, force them to make a decision. You can't neglect your bills and make it look like you're in good faith all in one package. You're either a good citizen who pays when it's expected, or you don't pay and get labeled as a promise breaker. People want the best of both worlds. We're all gluttons for a good reputation.


Got it. I was thinking you were guilting your coworkers. I can see how people who are in debt over their head are easy to threaten and eager to do whatever they can to get the collections agencies off their backs. I'm sure many have only themselves to blame. Does it ever wear on your emotionally though? I'm not sure I could do that kind of work and sleep well at night. I guess I could handle it better if it was all over the phone and I wasn't actually walking into to people's foreclosed homes and the end of their dreams and families.

[Mister D]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


How do you know that's the truth? What's logical about your position?

What do you believe about life Spunkloaf?


What if God does exist the way Christianity portrays it? Fact: God has never made his presence known to us in any sort of way in the past or present, discounting ancient hearsay accounts which can't be totally reliable. If he truly did, none of us would have any qualms over how it happened, if it happened, when or why it happened, etc. It would be an eternal heavenly signal which would make itself known through and through. Every one of us would have a unified understanding of spirituality, and the world would be that much closer to perfect. This would be true of any religion, if any one of them was "correct." Yet here we're all divided, and we have wars, and we have distrust. Either God does exist and is really cruel, or he doesn't exist the traditional wat we think he does or even at all.

Logic brings me there.


How do you know that God has never revealed his presence in any sort of way in the past or present? How can you call this a "fact"

[Mister D]

LoVE: I'm sorry, but God did not say those things. In fact God has never said anything. All laws, ideals and principles.....and religions.... are created by man, nothing more. That's the cold hard truth, you can't interpret it any other way unless you abandon logic. :(


then with all due respect if you refuse to accept the bible as the word of God then there is nothing to debate here.. thanks anyway


That guilt tactic does not work with me. I use it at work all the time. "You refuse to....." In this case, there is no argument to be had. God is either there, or he is not. It would be illogical that God would hide himself and cause all this confusion. If God exists, then he would make it known and ease our woes. Yet he does not, and people have wars over something which we cannot understand. People feel so strongly about it. And they should, after all it's fundamental.

That being said, I have a feeling God may exist, yet I accept that I am way too small and my mind is too simple to understand how he manifests himself/itself in the universe as we know it. It's presumptuous to accept one image of God and shut out all others.

The fact that we are living beings and we have consciousness is the closest thing to a miracle as I can find, simply because it is the least typical phenomenon we know of. Out of all the matter we've observed in the universe so far, collectively we are the only clumps of matter capable of thinking and doing things with a conscience that we've found so far. That says something about how precious we are, but doesn't speak to why we are the way we are, or how we've developed.


Yet you just claimed God has never manifested himself in any way. Now you have a feeling that God may exist? Your position appears to be a little confused although I agree with some of what you said.

[Mister D]

That being said, I have a feeling God may exist, yet I accept that I am way too small and my mind is too simple to understand how he manifests himself/itself in the universe as we know it. It's presumptuous to accept one image of God and shut out all others.

The fact that we are living beings and we have consciousness is the closest thing to a miracle as I can find, simply because it is the least typical phenomenon we know of. Out of all the matter we've observed in the universe so far, collectively we are the only clumps of matter capable of thinking and doing things with a conscience that we've found so far. That says something about how precious we are, but doesn't speak to why we are the way we are, or how we've developed.


I agree with most of that. Well said Spunk.


So do I

[Mister D]

I guess the real point would be in bringing up.....does one believe in the afterlife. Despite religion or whether it was passed down from the belief of a Creator and or GOD. Or even thru the misconception of that some Superior beings created us and are Aliens. Even if you believe that from science we evolved from some speck of dirt.

That the Creator that created it all.....and that here you are and you live this one physical tiny miniscule fraction of a moment in all of this grand creation; and thats it? Done your life energy snuffed out forever. Never to be thought of or made again.

Yet what do we know.....We know that in many Ancient Civilizations that all have one thing in common. That man is more than just his physical self. With those from the beginning. Man has a spirit, and or soul. To the present, day and age. Man is made out energy. This is not one or two or even 3-5 Ancient Civilizations. It is all of them. It is not like Ancient man just sat back and said oh your dead. It's over. Life goes on for the rest of us.

Man was looking into what was going on with death. Was there still presence of that spirit, soul and or energy. Did it stay, change, dissipatate. We know they looked into these things as there were occurences of things that took place and gave rise to speculation of theory. Egyptians and others talk of death only being the beginning. Knowing or what they think they know is an afterlife. Or the next stage of the journey. There are many that do. Some thru religion as we all know. Also we know today that energy is not destroyed.


The first step on the path to examining human origin is to accept that we're made of physical matter just like everything else. I would say the second step is to realize that we're animals just as any other animal is an animal. None of this proves or disproves God. Then ask yourself what a soul is. In my eyes, a soul is an extension of our ego, where our consciousness literally fights to exist. We want to believe we can exist beyond death, which is why we create an afterlife. It is very comforting, and it puts to rest many questions about what consciousness is. Doesn't mean it explains it.

Do you remember being born? What happened before it? My guess is the afterlife will be identical to that. *nothingness* Now you have to question your experience, and what it means to be able to see the world for a short period of time inside a huge eternity of nothingness. That's where it gets deep. The human brain can't comprehend the meaning of nothing. Zero does not exist to us. We observe and learn. If there is nothing to observe, there is nothing to learn. It gets stranger when we try to make something of nothing; when reality explodes into existence where once there was a void. It makes no sense to us.

So we create God. Everybody comes to that conclusion eventually, whether religion is a part of their finding or not. If we can't understand it, something greater than us must have a plan for us. I accept that there may be a God. I will not accept that God manifests the way the Bible describes it, because we don't know shit about shit now and we certainly didn't know shit about shit 2000 years ago.

If the Bible makes people feel better about themselves, fine. But there are annoying things about organized religion which have divided us and spawned intolerance. I can't imagine that to be a good thing no matter what light I see it under. So I tolerate organized religion to an extent. When people start to become intolerable with me, or tell me I can't do things because of what they believe in, I have a problem.


Belief in God most certainly has a psychological dimension but any claim that men create God cannot be substantiated. Moreover, you admit this when you say you accept the position that God may exist and is not a psychological projection. I'm just trying to undertsand your position. Forget about Chriastianity for a while. It's clouding your thinking.

[Conley]

Yes, it seems to be a big part of your argument is that none of us know very much at all for certain. In the same post you suggest that it's arrogant to assume anything regarding God. But by the same token it seems you are guilty of some of the same charges you make against organized religion. I can understand your issues with religion but to paint with such a broad brush seems foolish. One could make similar claims against atheists or agnostics, when in fact just like religions there are respectful and non-respectful individuals within those groups.

But yeah, like D said, let's leave Christianity behind for a moment in the discussion.

[Mister D]

Let's just focus on a generic God for now. I thin that will be helpful. Then whe can discuss particular interpretations or conceptions of the one true God.

[Elibe]

what do you want us to say? i believe in god but not sure where this is going

[Mister D]

what do you want us to say? i believe in god but not sure where this is going


Spunkloaf is at the wheel. Lets see where he takes us.

[Conley]

what do you want us to say? i believe in god but not sure where this is going


Spunkloaf is at the wheel. Lets see where he takes us.


:D

Carrie Underwood - Jesus, Take The Wheel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU#ws)

Just kidding Spunk...you have the floor. Good thread. 8)

[spunkloaf]

I guess the real point would be in bringing up.....does one believe in the afterlife. Despite religion or whether it was passed down from the belief of a Creator and or GOD. Or even thru the misconception of that some Superior beings created us and are Aliens. Even if you believe that from science we evolved from some speck of dirt.

That the Creator that created it all.....and that here you are and you live this one physical tiny miniscule fraction of a moment in all of this grand creation; and thats it? Done your life energy snuffed out forever. Never to be thought of or made again.

Yet what do we know.....We know that in many Ancient Civilizations that all have one thing in common. That man is more than just his physical self. With those from the beginning. Man has a spirit, and or soul. To the present, day and age. Man is made out energy. This is not one or two or even 3-5 Ancient Civilizations. It is all of them. It is not like Ancient man just sat back and said oh your dead. It's over. Life goes on for the rest of us.

Man was looking into what was going on with death. Was there still presence of that spirit, soul and or energy. Did it stay, change, dissipatate. We know they looked into these things as there were occurences of things that took place and gave rise to speculation of theory. Egyptians and others talk of death only being the beginning. Knowing or what they think they know is an afterlife. Or the next stage of the journey. There are many that do. Some thru religion as we all know. Also we know today that energy is not destroyed.


The first step on the path to examining human origin is to accept that we're made of physical matter just like everything else. I would say the second step is to realize that we're animals just as any other animal is an animal. None of this proves or disproves God. Then ask yourself what a soul is. In my eyes, a soul is an extension of our ego, where our consciousness literally fights to exist. We want to believe we can exist beyond death, which is why we create an afterlife. It is very comforting, and it puts to rest many questions about what consciousness is. Doesn't mean it explains it.

Do you remember being born? What happened before it? My guess is the afterlife will be identical to that. *nothingness* Now you have to question your experience, and what it means to be able to see the world for a short period of time inside a huge eternity of nothingness. That's where it gets deep. The human brain can't comprehend the meaning of nothing. Zero does not exist to us. We observe and learn. If there is nothing to observe, there is nothing to learn. It gets stranger when we try to make something of nothing; when reality explodes into existence where once there was a void. It makes no sense to us.

So we create God. Everybody comes to that conclusion eventually, whether religion is a part of their finding or not. If we can't understand it, something greater than us must have a plan for us. I accept that there may be a God. I will not accept that God manifests the way the Bible describes it, because we don't know shit about shit now and we certainly didn't know shit about shit 2000 years ago.

If the Bible makes people feel better about themselves, fine. But there are annoying things about organized religion which have divided us and spawned intolerance. I can't imagine that to be a good thing no matter what light I see it under. So I tolerate organized religion to an extent. When people start to become intolerable with me, or tell me I can't do things because of what they believe in, I have a problem.


Belief in God most certainly has a psychological dimension but any claim that men create God cannot be substantiated. Moreover, you admit this when you say you accept the position that God may exist and is not a psychological projection. I'm just trying to undertsand your position. Forget about Chriastianity for a while. It's clouding your thinking.


It's simple, I admit that I know very little and therefore believe nothing but what works here and now. I don't think knowing would change much, and I don't think it matters. God is not looking for any kind of companionship from us. God doesn't need recognition or fame or worship. Why would he need anything like that? He's God, for shit sake. For God to be angry or disappointed in Humans is to prove his own fallibility which is just absurd, so why fret about our misgivings or imperfections? Creation is a wave we ride on, the less we try to control it the easier things become.

I do believe in fate, but I don't know about being able to control fate or predict it. There will be a tomorrow, I can always seem to have faith in that. If I'm ever wrong about it, well then I'll probably be dead anyways and it wont matter that I was wrong. There will be gravity, I can trust that. There will always be enemies to make and friends to keep. If I wake up someday and the universe is inside out, I'm no longer breathing oxygen, and time moves in successions of reversing loops...then I will know I seriously overlooked something and that the universe is extremely paradoxical and unpredictably dynamic. For now I can trust that probably wont happen.

I'm not so hung up on Christianity like I used to be. If it seems that I attack it more than other religions, well let me just say this in my own defense: I only lash out at religious propaganda I find to be discouraging, and if I find more of that in one place than another, that would be a good reason why it seems I attack that religion more. It really is never anything personal, I like Christianity. It's a peaceful religion. Some Christians are dolts. But so are some atheists and agnostics.

[Mister D]

It's anything but simple, Spunkloaf. that's why I asked you to clarify. How do you know that God does not want any relationship with you at all? Better still, how could you possibly avoid it?

Fate is destiny. You have no control over fate. That works for you? I can understand that but it seems incredibly pessimistic.

[Elibe]

by definition we have no control over fate or destiny

free will is something different

[Mister D]

by definition we have no control over fate or destiny

free will is something different


Exactly

[spunkloaf]

It's anything but simple, Spunkloaf. that's why I asked you to clarify. How do you know that God does not want any relationship with you at all? Better still, how could you possibly avoid it?


I don't know it, but it is not likely, and it's not worth it to me to take a leap of faith for that position. Why do we need to assume that God is anything like us, or needs to have a relationship? A "relationship" with God is inherent, yes...but only if God exists.

What if YOU are God? You can't prove you're not. After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust. What if none of us are real? What if we're all just part of your dream? What does that make me, talking to you and giving you that knowledge? Did you give yourself that knowledge then? If not, who gave it to you since I'm just part of your dream?

What if we all share God status? What if we're all part of one collective consciousness, separated by physical bodies in space and time?

Conley just started up a deep thoughts thread, I'd like to talk more about that there. Sorry for all the "what if's" but I think it illustrates the point, that we think so shallow in terms of what consciousness and life is.



Fate is destiny. You have no control over fate. That works for you? I can understand that but it seems incredibly pessimistic.


You can think of it in different ways, but one single fate will become you. No more and no less. What it will be is not yet certain, but it will happen that way and only that way. It is because there are multiple choices we perceive free will, but you will behave a certain way and make one choice because of a certain chain of events. That does not mean choice is unimportant. There may be parallel universes which are identical to ours except for a choice you make, which changes everything else. Free will is not a resolved question, it still haunts our philosophical natures. It's not pessimistic, it's the truth.

[Mister D]

Why is it not likely? I suppose it really depends on your conception of God. What's your conception?


After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust.

Can we trust even that? You make a good point. Indeed, we take a great deal for granted and I'm well aware of that. It's something I often have to remind atheists and agnostics about. That's one of the reasons I believe in God. I trust in the reality of reality, so to speak. I believe this isn't all a result of randomness and thus without any meaning whatsoever. There is no way for me to know or verify this before hand. Meaning can only be experienced by living. I could say this a lot better with some time to think about it but we're just shooting the shit so...

I agree. Free will among much else is not a resolved issue but one cannot remain on the sidelines insisting he cannot know so what's the purpose of making a decision? You're in the game. You must decide.

[spunkloaf]

Why is it not likely? I suppose it really depends on your conception of God. What's your conception?


After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust.

Can we trust even that? You make a good point. Indeed, we take a great deal for granted and I'm well aware of that. It's something I often have to remind atheists and agnostics about. That's one of the reasons I believe in God. I trust in the reality of reality, so to speak. I believe this isn't all a result of randomness and thus without any meaning whatsoever. There is no way for me to know or verify this before hand. Meaning can only be experienced by living. I could say this a lot better with some time to think about it but we're just shooting the shit so...


It's easier to trust reality because we know there are permanent consequences for our actions. It's different if we're experiencing a non-realistic world, such as when we are dreaming. I could pick that subject apart forever as well.




I agree. Free will among much else is not a resolved issue but one cannot remain on the sidelines insisting he cannot know so what's the purpose of making a decision? You're in the game. You must decide.


Sadly, some people abandon control because they don't believe they have it.

[Conley]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.

[spunkloaf]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.

[Conley]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.


Or are they one and the same? You cannot divorce reality from perception. Your version of reality will only arrive filtered through the five senses.

[Mister D]

Why is it not likely? I suppose it really depends on your conception of God. What's your conception?


After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust.

Can we trust even that? You make a good point. Indeed, we take a great deal for granted and I'm well aware of that. It's something I often have to remind atheists and agnostics about. That's one of the reasons I believe in God. I trust in the reality of reality, so to speak. I believe this isn't all a result of randomness and thus without any meaning whatsoever. There is no way for me to know or verify this before hand. Meaning can only be experienced by living. I could say this a lot better with some time to think about it but we're just shooting the shit so...


It's easier to trust reality because we know there are permanent consequences for our actions. It's different if we're experiencing a non-realistic world, such as when we are dreaming. I could pick that subject apart forever as well.




I agree. Free will among much else is not a resolved issue but one cannot remain on the sidelines insisting he cannot know so what's the purpose of making a decision? You're in the game. You must decide.


Sadly, some people abandon control because they don't believe they have it.


I think your most important point though is that it is a trust. I'll avoid using the term "faith" for the sake of clarity. Our trust in reality isn't a religious impulse (although our search for meaning in our lives most certainly is) but it's not something we do because we have prior knowledge. It's a risk we take. It's a trust.

[spunkloaf]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.


Or are they one and the same? You cannot divorce reality from perception. Your version of reality will only arrive filtered through the five senses.



You have a point. Who sees the real, clear picture among us?

[Mister D]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.


Or are they one and the same? You cannot divorce reality from perception. Your version of reality will only arrive filtered through the five senses.


IOW, you can't truly separate subject and object. Agreed. In reality, there is no such thing as purely objective knowledge.

[Conley]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.


Or are they one and the same? You cannot divorce reality from perception. Your version of reality will only arrive filtered through the five senses.


IOW, you can't truly separate subject and object. Agreed. In reality, there is no such thing as purely objective knowledge.


We can share our perceptions with others to reach a consensus on our perceptions of reality, but that's about as close as we can get to objectivity.

[spunkloaf]

Why is it not likely? I suppose it really depends on your conception of God. What's your conception?


After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust.

Can we trust even that? You make a good point. Indeed, we take a great deal for granted and I'm well aware of that. It's something I often have to remind atheists and agnostics about. That's one of the reasons I believe in God. I trust in the reality of reality, so to speak. I believe this isn't all a result of randomness and thus without any meaning whatsoever. There is no way for me to know or verify this before hand. Meaning can only be experienced by living. I could say this a lot better with some time to think about it but we're just shooting the shit so...


It's easier to trust reality because we know there are permanent consequences for our actions. It's different if we're experiencing a non-realistic world, such as when we are dreaming. I could pick that subject apart forever as well.




I agree. Free will among much else is not a resolved issue but one cannot remain on the sidelines insisting he cannot know so what's the purpose of making a decision? You're in the game. You must decide.


Sadly, some people abandon control because they don't believe they have it.


I think your most important point though is that it is a trust. I'll avoid using the term "faith" for the sake of clarity. Our trust in reality isn't a religious impulse (although our search for meaning in our lives most certainly is) but it's not something we do because we have prior knowledge. It's a risk we take. It's a trust.


It's not even so much a risk we take, it's just all that we see is all we know. We're not aware of anything else, because this realm is all we experience. So we develop some basic principles and rules, do's and don'ts, and we expect consequences to be consistent. For all we know, we could have vast untapped powers as conscious individuals, yet we're ignoring them because we accept lives of limited potential.

[spunkloaf]

The "permanent consequences" are still just perceptions though. There's nothing to say they couldn't be malleable. Something as simple as what I perceive as yellow and what I perceive as blue will always make what I perceive to be green...and so on up the ladder in terms of complexity.


Aha! But those are two separate conversations. One of perception, and one of reality.


Or are they one and the same? You cannot divorce reality from perception. Your version of reality will only arrive filtered through the five senses.


IOW, you can't truly separate subject and object. Agreed. In reality, there is no such thing as purely objective knowledge.


We can share our perceptions with others to reach a consensus on our perceptions of reality, but that's about as close as we can get to objectivity.


This is true. It is why expression is an important art, no matter what form or language it comes packaged in. :)

[spunkloaf]

I am really enjoying this conversation by the way, props to both of you. O0

[Mister D]

Why is it not likely? I suppose it really depends on your conception of God. What's your conception?


After all, yours is the only experience you can truly trust.

Can we trust even that? You make a good point. Indeed, we take a great deal for granted and I'm well aware of that. It's something I often have to remind atheists and agnostics about. That's one of the reasons I believe in God. I trust in the reality of reality, so to speak. I believe this isn't all a result of randomness and thus without any meaning whatsoever. There is no way for me to know or verify this before hand. Meaning can only be experienced by living. I could say this a lot better with some time to think about it but we're just shooting the shit so...


It's easier to trust reality because we know there are permanent consequences for our actions. It's different if we're experiencing a non-realistic world, such as when we are dreaming. I could pick that subject apart forever as well.




I agree. Free will among much else is not a resolved issue but one cannot remain on the sidelines insisting he cannot know so what's the purpose of making a decision? You're in the game. You must decide.


Sadly, some people abandon control because they don't believe they have it.


I think your most important point though is that it is a trust. I'll avoid using the term "faith" for the sake of clarity. Our trust in reality isn't a religious impulse (although our search for meaning in our lives most certainly is) but it's not something we do because we have prior knowledge. It's a risk we take. It's a trust.


It's not even so much a risk we take, it's just all that we see is all we know. We're not aware of anything else, because this realm is all we experience. So we develop some basic principles and rules, do's and don'ts, and we expect consequences to be consistent. For all we know, we could have vast untapped powers as conscious individuals, yet we're ignoring them because we accept lives of limited potential.


But the point is that we don't really know it. We trust in reality. We trust in each other and in society. Human existence is always threatened by uncertainty and meaninglessness.

[Mister D]

I am really enjoying this conversation by the way, props to both of you. O0


I have to take a break for a bit.

BTW, I still think you're Hitler.

[spunkloaf]

I am really enjoying this conversation by the way, props to both of you. O0


I have to take a break for a bit.

BTW, I still think you're Hitler.


Me too.

And I'm flattered.