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IMPress Polly
06-06-2017, 06:14 AM
People here probably know that I've struggled to appreciate the superhero film genre. I loved the Wonder Woman movie though! And, surprisingly, that's not even the first movie from this genre that I've actually liked this year: I also thought Logan was basically a good movie. Those mark the only two films from the genre to date that I can honestly say I've enjoyed, and I've seen a lot. Perhaps it helped that I'm not otherwise familiar with these characters and their adventures outside the movies, but let me focus on my favorite for our purposes here: the latest one, Wonder Woman.

The set-up for Diana's (nobody calls her Wonder Woman in the movie) origin story is a tad cheesy: the movie begins and ends with her staring at a picture sent to her from Bruce Wayne (a.k.a. Batman). Fortunately though, that's pretty much the only in-film advertising for other DC "universe" movies. That fact alone makes this film far less annoying to yours truly than a lot of the other superhero movies that get made these days. For example, last year's Batman vs. Superman was more in essence a two-hour commercial for other DC movies yet to come than it was a proper movie in its own right. I hate those kinds of films! Anyway...

The actual origin story begins with Diana being born and raised on the island of Themyscira and learning of its past. Themyscira is home to a race of female warriors called the Amazons, who were created by the gods of Mt. Olympus to shield humankind from the corrupting influence of the god of war, Ares. In the distant past, Ares slew all his fellow gods, but was mortally wounded by his father Zeus. Before dying, to guard against Ares' return, Zeus left behind a weapon for the Amazons capable of killing his renegade son, known as "the Godkiller", which Diana believes to be a ceremonial sword. Diana wants to train as an Amazon warrior, but her mother, Queen Hippolyta, refuses to allow it, insisting that Ares will never return. (Surprise! The queen is wrong. :tongue:) However, Diana and her aunt, General Antiope, disobey Hippolyta and begin training in secret. When the two are discovered by Hippolyta, Antiope convinces the queen to allow Diana's training to continue.

As a young woman, Diana rescues an American pilot after his plane crashes off the coast of Themyscira, whereafter the island is attacked by German soldiers who have been pursuing him. The Amazons fend off the invasion and use the Lasso of Truth (yes!! :laugh:) to discover that the Great War is going on outside their sheltered island and that the pilot, Steve Trevor, is an Allied spy who has infiltrated the German intelligence forces and discovered that they are researching a deadlier form of mustard gas. Believing Ares is responsible for the war, Diana arms herself with the ceremonial sword and leaves Themyscira with Steve to find and destroy Ares and thus end the war.

I won't spoil the second and third acts for you (unless you want me to), but the bottom line, thematically speaking, is that this all leads to a clever plot twist that has Diana seriously question whether human nature itself is the root problem and whether, accordingly, humanity is, in fact, worth saving at all. She enters this wider world on the naive side, only to discover just how disappointing and untrustworthy people can really be. But she finally musters the faith in human nature that she needs to complete her self-assigned mission when she witnesses a genuinely heroic and self-sacrificing act and concludes that there is a good side to humanity that it must be her goal to bring out through inspiration. And that right there is what makes this a worthy film from the genre, in my opinion: it offers a good justification for the existence of what might construed as a power fantasy. Diana is not simply aiming to make you feel strong for the sake of feeling that way, but rather in order to give you the willpower to do good things for others.

In contrast to the other DC films of this generation, Wonder Woman also does not take itself more seriously than is merited. There is a healthy balance of seriousness and humor to be found here, along with an emotional intelligence that can only come from a genuinely heartfelt project. One senses that the creators of this movie truly meant what they were trying to communicate, and that makes all the difference. One can tell. The movie never degenerates into a lot of predictability. I also found the way this movie makes fun of sexist attitudes to be enjoyable. I've always enjoyed that approach to tackling the subject since the days of Tank Girl and Mulan. :grin:

Of course, because this is the first "tent pole" superhero film to have a solo female lead, it has been subject to some controversies so pitiful that they're amusing. I've found the funniest one to be the calls to boycott the movie nationwide over one theater's decision to host one women-only screening. The theater in question responded defiantly by announcing a whole bunch more women-only screenings and that, furthermore, all proceeds would go to Planned Parenthood. All of them sold out. Another tragically amusing controversy revolved around lead actress Gal Gadot's ethnicity, as the film was banned in Lebanon just simply because Gadot is an Israeli. :rollseyes: Film critics broadly liked the movie, but the critiques of those who expressed overall disapproval were sometimes almost as amusing as these controversies. For example, a (male) writer for The Guardian criticized the Wonder Woman movie for "over-earnestness". You know, that's a new one on me. Never until the release of this film have I heard a professional film critic claim that a movie was insufficiently corporate and plastic in feel.

What I am trying to say is that the objections to Wonder Woman are largely pretty pathetic and reaching, so go see the movie. :smiley:

Ethereal
06-06-2017, 06:38 AM
I cannot read your review without knowing whether it contains spoilers.

Chris
06-06-2017, 10:37 AM
I hear she's sexy. ;)

The Xl
06-06-2017, 10:38 AM
I haven't been to a theater in like 7 years, but maybe I'll check it out.

IMPress Polly
06-06-2017, 11:22 AM
Ethereal wrote:
I cannot read your review without knowing whether it contains spoilers.

I only went into the first one-third of the movie in (some) specifics, which is why I didn't bother including any spoiler tags. That's in the second, third, and fourth paragraphs, so if you want everything to be a surprise, just skip those parts.


The XL wrote:
I haven't been to a theater in like 7 years, but maybe I'll check it out.

It might be time to pay another visit!


Chris wrote:
I hear she's sexy. http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/smilies/wink.png

Well my prediction on the conflation of sexy and sexualized among some well-meaning but misguided feminists (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/83675-Sexy-vs-Sexualized-The-Difference) did come true. The Guardian review I referenced in the OP was a classic example of such conservative-minded over-analysis. And some others did so as well. I haven't yet read the Feminist Frequency analysis (I will when I get home, as they've just posted it), but the title of it and a quick skim-reading I just did also suggest that their's will, somewhat predictably, be another mind-numbing example that fails to see the forest for the trees. I predict the aforementioned conflation will be an element of their critique as well, not unlike Anita's over-analysis of Mad Max: Fury Road, which she likewise characterized as "not a feminist movie." :rollseyes:

The film has a 93% fresh score on Rotten Tomatoes and practically every feminist on Earth loves it. There are just some people who possess a certain academic disconnection from reality.

Standing Wolf
06-06-2017, 11:57 AM
The film has a 93% fresh score on Rotten Tomatoes and practically every feminist on Earth loves it. There are just some people who possess a certain academic disconnection from reality.

My youngest son and I are going to go see WW this Sunday. He's a big-time student of film - knows obscure European and Japanese films and directors I've never heard of, etc. - so I have to say, in all honestly, that he sometimes strikes me as a bit...I don't want to say "pretentious"...but it just seems to me that he is looking too hard for reasons not to like something. We saw the new Guy Ritchie King Arthur film a few weeks ago, and I loved it; my son was talking about "motivation" and how the movie failed to establish this and that, and all I could say was, "But, it kicked ass!" Looking forward to seeing WW very much.

Chris
06-06-2017, 12:09 PM
I only went into the first one-third of the movie in (some) specifics, which is why I didn't bother including any spoiler tags. That's in the second, third, and fourth paragraphs, so if you want everything to be a surprise, just skip those parts.



It might be time to pay another visit!



Well my prediction on the conflation of sexy and sexualized among some well-meaning but misguided feminists (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/83675-Sexy-vs-Sexualized-The-Difference) did come true. The Guardian review I referenced in the OP was a classic example of such conservative-minded over-analysis. And some others did so as well. I haven't yet read the Feminist Frequency analysis (I will when I get home, as they've just posted it), but the title of it and a quick skim-reading I just did also suggest that their's will, somewhat predictably, be another mind-numbing example that fails to see the forest for the trees. I predict the aforementioned conflation will be an element of their critique as well, not unlike Anita's over-analysis of Mad Max: Fury Road, which she likewise characterized as "not a feminist movie." :rollseyes:

The film has a 93% fresh score on Rotten Tomatoes and practically every feminist on Earth loves it. There are just some people who possess a certain academic disconnection from reality.

I winked.

IMPress Polly
06-06-2017, 01:44 PM
Standing Wolf wrote:
My youngest son and I are going to go see WW this Sunday. He's a big-time student of film - knows obscure European and Japanese films and directors I've never heard of, etc. - so I have to say, in all honestly, that he sometimes strikes me as a bit...I don't want to say "pretentious"...but it just seems to me that he is looking too hard for reasons not to like something. We saw the new Guy Ritchie King Arthur film a few weeks ago, and I loved it; my son was talking about "motivation" and how the movie failed to establish this and that, and all I could say was, "But, it kicked ass!" Looking forward to seeing WW very much.

Oh Wonder Woman runs circles around the new King Arthur film in objective artistic quality.


Chris wrote:
I winked.

I know. :wink:

Hal Jordan
06-06-2017, 02:00 PM
Just so you know, you mentioned Tank Girl, and that's a comic book movie as well. There are actually many comic book movies that would surprise most people.

exotix
06-06-2017, 09:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q8fG0TtVAY




http://res.cloudinary.com/luvckye9s/image/upload/v1496802724/1_snek6y.png

Hal Jordan
06-06-2017, 11:45 PM
Phew. Just came from seeing Wonder Woman. I thought it was fantastic. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd be happy to discuss more specifics in PMs, though.

Coming to you from the depths of inner space

IMPress Polly
06-07-2017, 01:40 PM
Hal Jordan wrote:
Just so you know, you mentioned Tank Girl, and that's a comic book movie as well. There are actually many comic book movies that would surprise most people.

Really? I never knew that! I always thought it was just another one of those dystopian punk type movies that were fairly common back then. You know, back in that 1990-95 period, you had a lot of those. Some of the better-known/just-plain-better ones were like Total Recall, Ghost in the Shell, Robo Cop 2, and The Lawnmowerman, while the more common, B-grade variety of dystopian punk movies from that era included stuff like Waterworld, Judge Dredd, Robo Cop 3, and, my personal favorite, the infamous Super Mario Bros. movie. Tank Girl I just thought was one that fell distinctly into the latter category, distinguished mainly by the fact that it was an ultra-feminist (as in like pro-lesbianism-in-1995) one with a female lead. Movies like Tank Girl and Super Mario Bros. fell into the "so bad they're good" category, and I just liked the spirit behind Tank Girl, even if the film's logic was more than a little shaky and the props and costumes comically poor. I had no idea there was a corresponding comic book series. That must've been fun! :laugh:

Apparently, I've been informed of late, there have actually been a handful of female-led proper superhero movies before Wonder Woman as well. I had completely forgotten about the god-awful (as in just painful, not "so bad they're good") Catwoman and Elektra movies (and also didn't realize that the former counted as a hero character) and never knew that there was a(n apparently just as poor) Supergirl movie back in 1984. That's why I've taken to using the qualifying term "tent pole" when describing Wonder Woman as the first of its kind in the last week.


Phew. Just came from seeing Wonder Woman. I thought it was fantastic. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd be happy to discuss more specifics in PMs, though.

I thought it was outstanding as well. :smiley: I have deftly avoided revealing some of the best surprises in my review, including the ending, you may have noticed. I would be up for discussing anything you want to about it in private messages.

Hal Jordan
06-07-2017, 02:33 PM
Judge Dredd was also a comic book movie. Another (generally received as bad, I haven't seen it) one from the time period would be Barb Wire. I do still like The Crow, anther comic book movie from the time period (the sequels, not so much). The Mask and Men in Black also fit that bill. You know, I hadn't thought of how many comic book movies came out in the mid 90s. There were even two Tales From the Crypt movies. Timecop is another. Tennage Mutant Ninja Turtles started their movie series in 90, but the third one came out in 93. Close enough. From Hell, starring Johnny Depp and Ghost World, both released in 2001, were also comic book movies that most people wouldn't expect to be. Sorry, kinda went off on a major tangent there.

Anyway, I try to forget Catwoman and Elektra. I haven't seen the Supergirl movie. I say Wonder Woman is the first of its kind in a number of ways. First, it seems like a lot more effort went into making it than the others mentioned. I't's also the first A-list female comic character movie. Catwoman, Elektra, and Supergirl are all great characters, but they really weren't headliners. They became known through the stories of others. Wonder Woman, however, has long been one of the three pillars of the DC Universe. It's honestly shameful that it took them this long to finally make her movie. I'm about to bring up the biggest first, though. This is the first time a comic movie franchise has relied so heavily on a female led movie. DC really needed public perception of their franchise turned around before the numbers started trickling off. Wonder Woman was their chance to do it, since they hadn't managed to yet. Since their next movie is Justice League they needed to turn it around, and in a big way.

Oh man, the ending... The ending... Yes, we can definitely discuss that in PMs.

My biggest complaint with the movie is that some of the CGI was off, which you kinda expect, so it's not really a major gripe, especially when you consider that some of the CGI was done amazingly. I do have a particular scene that comes to mind with brilliant CGI.

Standing Wolf
06-07-2017, 02:42 PM
Apparently, I've been informed of late, there have actually been a handful of female-led proper superhero movies before Wonder Woman as well. I had completely forgotten about the god-awful (as in just painful, not "so bad they're good") Catwoman and Elektra movies (and also didn't realize that the former counted as a hero character)...

To her eternal credit, Halle Berry actually showed up to accept her (well deserved) Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Performance By An Actress for Catwoman.

http://www.tvmix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/halleberry.jpg


...and never knew that there was a(n apparently just as poor) Supergirl movie back in 1984..

I vaguely recall trying to stay awake through that one in the theatre. Helen Slater was Supergirl. She was much better as Judge Reinhold's wife/accomplice in the classic Ruthless People. She now plays Supergirl's adoptive mother in the WB Supergirl series.

Common
06-08-2017, 07:17 AM
Theres been a ton of movies with female heros

The underworld vampire series of movies all had a female hero lead and the Resident Evil movie series had a female lead Hero

Plus these 20 movies

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/greatest-female-action-movie-heroes/17224

Green Arrow
06-08-2017, 07:57 AM
Theres been a ton of movies with female heros

The underworld vampire series of movies all had a female hero lead and the Resident Evil movie series had a female lead Hero

Plus these 20 movies

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/greatest-female-action-movie-heroes/17224

None of those were major "tent-pole" comic movies though, which was Polly's point.

decedent
06-08-2017, 08:09 AM
I was surprised after DC's last two bombs that had no character.

For those not into superheroes, it was a great war movie. Gal Gadot had that Themisciran mediterranian look and sound. Chris Pine was a perfect Steve Trevor. I won't reveal the plot twist but there was a great scene where Steve is telling Dianna that being flawed is part of being human. The scene on the boat where she asks him to sleep beside here was cute as hell.


For me, the biggest hole in the movie was how they got from the island to London so fast in that boat. It should have taken weeks if Themiscira is actually in the Mediterranean.


I hear she's sexy. ;)

Yes. A nice accent too. Robin Wright looked good.

decedent
06-08-2017, 08:26 AM
DC really needed public perception of their franchise turned around before the numbers started trickling off. Wonder Woman was their chance to do it, since they hadn't managed to yet. Since their next movie is Justice League they needed to turn it around, and in a big way.


This feels like the first real JLA movie. So far so good, but the trailer is a bit disappointing. I don't think the JLA will have the same success as he Avengers.


My biggest complaint with the movie is that some of the CGI was off, which you kinda expect, so it's not really a major gripe, especially when you consider that some of the CGI was done amazingly. I do have a particular scene that comes to mind with brilliant CGI.

I thought it had one of the best movie explosions. The physics (especially the jumping) worked for me.

Common
06-08-2017, 08:51 AM
None of those were major "tent-pole" comic movies though, which was Polly's point.

Well ok,

Standing Wolf
06-08-2017, 09:06 AM
When I was a kid, 'Justice League of America' was one of my favorite titles. I can remember walking back from the grocery store where we bought comics - no comic shops in 1963 - reading JLA #21 - the first JLA-JSA crossover. (JLA #21 and #22 was also the first time I'd ever seen a storyline that extended beyond one issue.) In those days, the comics all had "letters pages" where readers could get a brief letter about the comic published, and one of the most popular pastimes of that feature was in casting an imagined JLA movie. George Reeves was deceased by then, so I can't recall who the popular choice for Superman was - probably Steve Reeves. Tuesday Weld was a frequent candidate for Wonder Woman. Gordon Scott was often mentioned as being a good choice for J'onn J'onzz. I can only imagine that, with the state of special effects technology as it then existed, a JLA movie attempt in those days would have been pretty horrendous.

Standing Wolf
06-08-2017, 11:21 AM
Speaking of "horrendous"...

http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w1200-h600-q90-c1200:600/wp-content/uploads/maxresdefault26.jpg

Justice League of America, the 1997 t.v. pilot.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cjYWnYkk_yY/VzuKj9ovC4I/AAAAAAAAFvI/yDF-XfnsLZ4OeQ2e39PGsrqEE-VtvCneACLcB/s1600/2012-04-15_163907_jla-justice-league-america-tv-pilot-12.jpg

Donald Ogden Stiers as The Martian Manhunter.

Common
06-08-2017, 11:23 AM
Speaking of "horrendous"...

http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w1200-h600-q90-c1200:600/wp-content/uploads/maxresdefault26.jpg

Justice League of America, the 1997 t.v. pilot.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cjYWnYkk_yY/VzuKj9ovC4I/AAAAAAAAFvI/yDF-XfnsLZ4OeQ2e39PGsrqEE-VtvCneACLcB/s1600/2012-04-15_163907_jla-justice-league-america-tv-pilot-12.jpg

Donald Ogden Stiers as The Martian Manhunter.

Good Job :) you hit a milestone and broke a record, you hit 23% activity. I take pride being the catalyst :)

Chris
06-08-2017, 12:28 PM
Good Job :) you hit a milestone and broke a record, you hit 23% activity. I take pride being the catalyst :)


Bad faith.

Standing Wolf
06-11-2017, 04:29 PM
Saw Wonder Woman this morning - absolutely fantastic! Aside from having a tough time picturing David Thewlis as Ares, God of War - particularly after watching him play a rather personally disgusting individual in Fargo this season - I enjoyed just about every bit of it. Thought I'd caught a couple of anachronisms - the waffle cone and the ERB hardcovers - but it turns out both were very much around (and popular) in '18. I wish filmmakers wouldn't feel obliged to always make the big final fight scene happen at night, but that's a minor quibble. It was really, really great!

Saw a trailer for Thor: Ragnorak, which looks to be visually spectacular. I enjoyed the first Thor, but the second one put me to sleep; probably my least favorite of all the Marvel movies. If this one does justice to the character and delivers even a halfway decent story, it could be another huge word of mouth film, like GOTG was.

Speaking of which...



https://youtu.be/MGurtL83zhY

Hal Jordan
07-11-2017, 10:50 AM
Wonder Woman update:

http://comicbook.com/movies/2017/07/11/wonder-woman-box-office-biggest-superhero-origin/

IMPress Polly
07-11-2017, 02:18 PM
I think one of the key reasons why Wonder Woman has become the second-highest grossing superhero origin movie of all time with the possibility of passing the first Spider-Man movie to become the very highest-grossing has to do with the breadth of its demographic appeal compared to other films in the genre. Where the superhero film genre overall averages a 62% male audience, this is the first one that has achieved approximate audience gender parity (http://variety.com/2017/film/news/wonder-woman-study-box-office-1202488262/). As much should lay to rest Hollywood's longstanding fear that appealing to women turns men off. Instead of losing male viewers relative to superhero origin story standards, Wonder Woman has retained them and added more female viewers than usual, drawing an expanded audience into DC's film universe. Let that be a lesson for makers of superhero and other action movies going forward!

Captain Obvious
07-11-2017, 02:49 PM
Superhero movies are Hollywoods new mass produced swill for the herd. That and kids movies which they still shovel out in heaps.

Easy to make, don't need much plot, box office generally exceeds budget.

meh... no thanks

Standing Wolf
07-11-2017, 02:56 PM
Superhero movies are Hollywoods new mass produced swill for the herd. That and kids movies which they still shovel out in heaps.

Easy to make, don't need much plot, box office generally exceeds budget.

meh... no thanks

Yeah, you're right, C.O. Stories about super-powered heroes defeating monsters and villains have only been around - so far as we know - for about four thousand years. It's probably just a fad.

http://cdn.biblicalarchaeology.org/wp-content/uploads/louvre-gilgamesh-epic.jpg

Cletus
07-11-2017, 03:03 PM
I think one of the key reasons why Wonder Woman has become the second-highest grossing superhero origin movie of all time with the possibility of passing the first Spider-Man movie to become the very highest-grossing has to do with the breadth of its demographic appeal compared to other films in the genre. Where the superhero film genre overall averages a 62% male audience, this is the first one that has achieved approximate audience gender parity (http://variety.com/2017/film/news/wonder-woman-study-box-office-1202488262/). As much should lay to rest Hollywood's longstanding fear that appealing to women turns men off. Instead of losing male viewers relative to superhero origin story standards, Wonder Woman has retained them and added more female viewers than usual, drawing an expanded audience into DC's film universe. Let that be a lesson for makers of superhero and other action movies going forward!


It's the costume.

Captain Obvious
07-11-2017, 03:10 PM
Yeah, you're right, C.O. Stories about super-powered heroes defeating monsters and villains have only been around - so far as we know - for about four thousand years. It's probably just a fad.

http://cdn.biblicalarchaeology.org/wp-content/uploads/louvre-gilgamesh-epic.jpg

Not sure what your point was, maybe you misunderstood my reply.

I just don't find repetetive mass produced story lines entertaining. Some demographic segments do I suppose.

IMPress Polly
07-12-2017, 07:04 AM
Cletus wrote: It's the costume.

I'm sure that's part of the appeal for many men. :wink:


Captain Obvious wrote:
I just don't find repetetive mass produced story lines entertaining. Some demographic segments do I suppose.

Traditionally, I'd have pretty well agreed with this summation of the genre, but between this film and Logan, I've got to say that the genre's storytelling quality does appear to be improving this year (at least outside of projects controlled by Marvel Studios anyway). I have spoken to what I feel I can without spoiling some of the best narrative surprises in the Wonder Woman movie (some things you really should just see for yourself), but to comment briefly on what made Logan stand out for me, while we have seen many stories about how normal (male) human beings become superheroes with special powers and whatnot, Logan in contrast does something that felt new to me in telling the story of how a superhero becomes a normal human, with the theme of it being better to be a normal person than this exciting fantasy. These two films give me some hope for the future of the genre, personally, beyond just its money-making prospects.

Cletus
07-12-2017, 10:03 AM
I'm sure that's part of the appeal for many men. :wink:

Not just with men.

Do you really think the movie would be as big as it is if Wonder Woman looked like Roseanne Barr or Whoopi Goldberg? People wouldn't go see it... men or women.

Standing Wolf
07-12-2017, 01:53 PM
I was reading an article yesterday about the fact that Marvel really messed up when they didn't follow up Scarlet Johansson's appearance in Iron Man 2, or at some other point, with a solo movie focusing on her background. I agree, that had - still has, really - the potential to be huge.

http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/scarlett_johansson_black_widow.jpg

IMPress Polly
07-12-2017, 02:39 PM
Cletus wrote:
Not just with men.

Do you really think the movie would be as big as it is if Wonder Woman looked like Roseanne Barr or Whoopi Goldberg? People wouldn't go see it... men or women.

It depends on what kind of movie you're making. There's a market for women of all body types just as there are women of all body types. Melissa McCarthy (whom you might recall from, among other films, last year's Ghostbusters remake), for example, may not be a blockbuster actress, but she does have an audience. She legitimizes comedy roles for women and helps many overweight women feel more normal.

But you're right, I suspect that most female fans of the particularity that is the superhero genre would prefer to see an idealized representation of womanhood on the screen so that they can fantasize about being her for two hours.

The Xl
07-12-2017, 04:18 PM
Superheroes are generally expected to look the part, be it male or female.

Standing Wolf
07-12-2017, 05:16 PM
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.q6Xglqn0IbbaHr6bAk8DVgEYEs&pid=15.1
WORST...SUPERHERO...EVER

kilgram
07-13-2017, 12:48 AM
Yeah, I enjoyed a lot the film.

PS: Your OP I think that has too much spoilers and a spoilers alert would have been appreciated :-D

CreepyOldDude
08-25-2017, 05:30 PM
To her eternal credit, Halle Berry actually showed up to accept her (well deserved) Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Performance By An Actress for Catwoman.

http://www.tvmix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/halleberry.jpg



I vaguely recall trying to stay awake through that one in the theatre. Helen Slater was Supergirl. She was much better as Judge Reinhold's wife/accomplice in the classic Ruthless People. She now plays Supergirl's adoptive mother in the WB Supergirl series.

I loved Catwoman. I've never understood why everyone is so down on it.

Standing Wolf
09-15-2017, 12:47 PM
Was sorting through a stack of older magazines yesterday, and I came across a copy of one called - and I'm going to self-censor this, because I don't know whether the program will do it if I don't - 'B*TCH'..."a thoughtful, feminist response to media and popular culture". I remembered buying it, but couldn't immediately remember why.

There used to be this great magazine and second-hand bookstore in town that stocked hundreds of different periodicals, famous and obscure, and kept not only the current issue but the previous four or five, and that's where I'd purchased it. Most stores destroy magazines after a very short time in order to get credit back from the publisher. I was trying to find an issue of 'Entertainment Weekly' at a Barnes & Noble a while back, and when I didn't see it on the shelves, I asked a clerk, who looked in the computer and said, "Yes, we got 17 copies of that issue in and sold one". I said, "Great, do you have them in the back?" and she said, "No, they've been destroyed". I ended up having to buy the thing on eBay.

Anyway, I quickly ascertained why I had bought this particular issue of 'B*TCH' - there was an extensive article in it about the origins and early publishing history of Wonder Woman, as well as a lot about her creator, William Moulton Marsten. Interesting guy - believed that women were far better suited than men to run the world, and that they eventually, inevitably would. Married, if not legally, to two women, who remained together after Marsten's death.

Polly, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that, as into both feminism and popular culture as you are, that this particular magazine is not unknown to you. :grin:

IMPress Polly
09-16-2017, 10:12 AM
Standing Wolf wrote:
Anyway, I quickly ascertained why I had bought this particular issue of 'B*TCH' - there was an extensive article in it about the origins and early publishing history of Wonder Woman, as well as a lot about her creator, William Moulton Marsten. Interesting guy - believed that women were far better suited than men to run the world, and that they eventually, inevitably would. Married, if not legally, to two women, who remained together after Marsten's death.

Polly, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that, as into both feminism and popular culture as you are, that this particular magazine is not unknown to you. :grin:

I'm familiar with B*tch magazine for sure. :grin: Not with the particular issue you mention though. However, I understand that there is a movie coming out later this year about the life of William Marsten and I am definitely interested in seeing that!

In the meanwhile, just thought I'd remind you and everyone that the Wonder Woman movie comes out on video on Tuesday. Just thought I'd shamelessly hawk the film one last time (before my year-end list of best 2017 stuff, that is). :wink:

Standing Wolf
09-16-2017, 11:39 AM
In the meanwhile, just thought I'd remind you and everyone that the Wonder Woman movie comes out on video on Tuesday. Just thought I'd shamelessly hawk the film one last time (before my year-end list of best 2017 stuff, that is). :wink:

Looking forward to seeing it again. Definitely one of the best I watched in 2017, although Wind River is #1 so far.

donttread
09-17-2017, 07:23 AM
I hear she's sexy. ;)

Seen many films without sexy people sell big lately?

AeonPax
09-17-2017, 07:53 PM
`
`
A few weeks ago, me, my daughters and a few of their friends went to see Wonder Woman, before school started. While the movie had already been out at least a month, the theater was rather packed. I like science fiction/fantasy movies and having seen WW in "Batman vs Superman", my curiosity was piqued.

I really enjoyed it as did those I saw it with. Jenkins did an excellent job directing this female action flick and I love Gal Gadot, and her WW costume. The younger crowd there, mainly females, went nuts at times. I see movies for escapism and this movie satisfied that. I've seen three times already.

Nonetheless, in critical review, there were flaws (none affected my enjoyment)
`




a) In the Wonder Woman mythos, she started appearing in comics during the 1940, fighting Nazi's, not WWI.

b) The idea of an American Indian in the movie (The Chief) seemed anachronistic and out of place in a WWI setting

c) The Steve Trevor love interest was forced and an unnecessary part of the subplot.

d) At one point it appeared like WW was shot in the gut but the film glossed by that.
`
What Wonder Woman does is cross over into mythology genre, similar to what Thor does, which is all fantasy. Mythology is steeped in the "magic" of the gods. WW obviously has supernatural powers. In such a literary environment, anything is possible. Hercules may even make an appearance down the road. So long as I find it entertaining, I'll support it.

Standing Wolf
09-17-2017, 07:58 PM
What they did to WW, in terms of changing the original story, is nothing compared with what they did with Superman. That was my biggest complaint with The Man of Steel, which of course takes place in this same universe. As for Steve Trevor, he was very much a part of the original WW story.

AeonPax
09-17-2017, 08:21 PM
What they did to WW, in terms of changing the original story, is nothing compared with what they did with Superman. That was my biggest complaint with The Man of Steel, which of course takes place in this same universe. As for Steve Trevor, he was very much a part of the original WW story.
`
A love interest? Perhaps. But to make out? hardly. Furthermore, WW was an Amazon and the Trevor subplot does not square with any of the Amazonian Greek mythology. Of course directors can change things to fit their own perception and style and the love/sex interest is in keeping with popular trends, but no matter which one rationalizes it, it is just not part of the Amazonian character mythos.

Standing Wolf
09-17-2017, 09:54 PM
A love interest? Perhaps. But to make out? hardly. Furthermore, WW was an Amazon and the Trevor subplot does not square with any of the Amazonian Greek mythology. Of course directors can change things to fit their own perception and style and the love/sex interest is in keeping with popular trends, but no matter which one rationalizes it, it is just not part of the Amazonian character mythos.

The Wonder Woman story, from its very beginnings, had very little to do with the Amazon mythos. A wonderful novel by Steven Pressfield, 'The Last of the Amazons', on the other hand, is probably the best thing ever written in that regard. I can't recommend it highly enough.

http://images.gr-assets.com/books/1386920780l/1318.jpg

Pressfield's works are eminently readable and exciting, yet so historically accurate and enlightening that one of his novels, Tides of War, is required reading at the U.S. Army War College.

Cletus
09-17-2017, 11:33 PM
`
`

Nonetheless, in critical review, there were flaws (none affected my enjoyment)
`



b) The idea of an American Indian in the movie (The Chief) seemed anachronistic and out of place in a WWI setting





There were actually about 10,000 of them in the Army. A group that gets largely overlooked in history is the Choctaw code talkers. Way before the Navajo did the same in WWII, a group of Choctaw confused the Germans by transmitting and receiving messages in Choctaw.

Hal Jordan
09-18-2017, 02:33 AM
`
`
A few weeks ago, me, my daughters and a few of their friends went to see Wonder Woman, before school started. While the movie had already been out at least a month, the theater was rather packed. I like science fiction/fantasy movies and having seen WW in "Batman vs Superman", my curiosity was piqued.

I really enjoyed it as did those I saw it with. Jenkins did an excellent job directing this female action flick and I love Gal Gadot, and her WW costume. The younger crowd there, mainly females, went nuts at times. I see movies for escapism and this movie satisfied that. I've seen three times already.

Nonetheless, in critical review, there were flaws (none affected my enjoyment)
`



a) In the Wonder Woman mythos, she started appearing in comics during the 1940, fighting Nazi's, not WWI.

b) The idea of an American Indian in the movie (The Chief) seemed anachronistic and out of place in a WWI setting

c) The Steve Trevor love interest was forced and an unnecessary part of the subplot.

d) At one point it appeared like WW was shot in the gut but the film glossed by that.



`
What Wonder Woman does is cross over into mythology genre, similar to what Thor does, which is all fantasy. Mythology is steeped in the "magic" of the gods. WW obviously has supernatural powers. In such a literary environment, anything is possible. Hercules may even make an appearance down the road. So long as I find it entertaining, I'll support it.
As to 1, I actually see that as the opposite of a flaw. Sure, Wonder Woman was created later, but it added a uniqueness to the film beyond what was already there. There are already too many movies based around WWII. WWI, however, has been overlooked by film, mostly because film's strongest years have been after WWII. With c, you have a fair point. With d, gunshots shouldn't mean much, maybe slight damage, at most. Remember, in the comics, she's comparable to Superman. She's at least his equal.

Hal Jordan
09-18-2017, 02:38 AM
`
A love interest? Perhaps. But to make out? hardly. Furthermore, WW was an Amazon and the Trevor subplot does not square with any of the Amazonian Greek mythology. Of course directors can change things to fit their own perception and style and the love/sex interest is in keeping with popular trends, but no matter which one rationalizes it, it is just not part of the Amazonian character mythos.

No, but it more than squares with the comic mythology. Steve Trevor was a major love interest for WW from her creation up to the DC reboot (new 52), which was in 2011. The director only shortened that love interest.

AeonPax
09-18-2017, 12:04 PM
As to 1, I actually see that as the opposite of a flaw. Sure, Wonder Woman was created later, but it added a uniqueness to the film beyond what was already there. There are already too many movies based around WWII. WWI, however, has been overlooked by film, mostly because film's strongest years have been after WWII. With c, you have a fair point. With d, gunshots shouldn't mean much, maybe slight damage, at most. Remember, in the comics, she's comparable to Superman. She's at least his equal.
`
De gustibus non est disputandum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_gustibus_non_est_disputandum) - Everyone has their own unique tastes. One is just as good as the other.

IMPress Polly
09-19-2017, 02:12 PM
AeonPax wrote:
I really enjoyed it as did those I saw it with. Jenkins did an excellent job directing this female action flick and I love Gal Gadot, and her WW costume.

So did I! I thought the direction and writing were very heartfelt and authentic in nature, and Gal Gadot's expressive face is just perfect for capturing the character's sense of righteous indignation! And screw those who dislike her WW costume! That's the coolest, most fun superhero costume I've ever seen before! YaY for corset armor! :laugh:


The younger crowd there, mainly females, went nuts at times. I see movies for escapism and this movie satisfied that. I've seen three times already.

I noticed that too! Opening day here was a vaguely similar experience to attending Geek Girl Con! There were grown women showing up in WW costumes, and the audience, led by the younger women, would sometimes cheer and clap at various scenes. (I might have joined in too. :wink:) I've been to the opening weekends of a lot of superhero movies before, but never have I seen quite that amount of excitement surrounding one. It was a ton of fun. :grin: This movie clearly meant something to many people, and especially to many women. Those seeing it for the first time on video will miss out on a major part of the experience. The audience made the WW movie experience for me to a substantial degree! They were sometimes more entertaining than the film itself. :laugh:

I think you're also spot-on on pinpointing the younger women as the most enthusiastic. The opening weekend Cinema Score polling found that audiences overall gave Wonder Woman an A, with one exception: women between the ages of 18 and 24 gave it a rare A+ instead. I think it was just that kind of summer for films. Girls Trip, for example (which is basically the logical inverse of the Fifty Shades movies), currently stands at a multiple of close to 4, making it possibly the most-liked movie of the summer by that standard of measure aside from Wonder Woman.

(If you're not familiar with box office lingo, a "multiple" refers to a film's total box office intake over the course of its theatrical run relative to its opening weekend performance in ticket sales. For example, if a film closes at a multiple of 2, that means it doubled its opening weekend box office performance over the course of its threatrical run, while if it closes at a multiple of 3, that means it earned triple its opening weekend sales over the course of its theatrical run, etc. Generally, studios are happy if a movie earns a multiple of 3 these days, as that tends to indicate that people who saw the movie liked it. Batman v. Superman and Suicide Squad sold a lot of tickets, but they had low multiples barely exceeding 2, which indicates that their ticket sales were front-loaded and therefore based more on pre-release marketing hype than on actual like of the films by those who saw them. Wonder Woman, by contrast, currently stands at a multiple of roughly 4, which means that it has genuinely earned its box office success. A multiple of 4 is unusually high, especially for the superhero genre, which suggests that audiences liked it more than a little. Girls Trip was a smaller movie that launched to just $31 million (though that was more than the expected $20 million) and now is situated at a $114 million domestic total: the same as Fifty Shades Darker, which represents a multiple approaching 4, and that's very rare (and certainly far higher than that of Fifty Shades Darker.) Almost everything else this summer flopped relative to its budget.)

I think Wonder Woman is my favorite new film since Carol (currently my absolute favorite movie) came out.


Nonetheless, in critical review, there were flaws (none affected my enjoyment)
`



a) In the Wonder Woman mythos, she started appearing in comics during the 1940, fighting Nazi's, not WWI.

b) The idea of an American Indian in the movie (The Chief) seemed anachronistic and out of place in a WWI setting

c) The Steve Trevor love interest was forced and an unnecessary part of the subplot.

d) At one point it appeared like WW was shot in the gut but the film glossed by that.






To me, as someone who has never opened a single Wonder Woman comic before, pure loyalty to the comic books didn't really matter to me. I thought World War 1 was a clever and distinctive backdrop that helped further differentiate Diana Prince's first movie adventure from that of Captain America.

As to the rest of these critiques, I just simply don't agree. Well okay, the romance subplot wasn't truly necessary, but I thought it was cute and fun, so there! :tongue:

In my opinion, the movie's biggest flaw was just using too much CGI in the final fight. I mean that's something most superhero movies do throughout, and it gets tiresome to me. It kinda gives things an unnecessarily cartoonish feel, I think, which is particularly unfortunate when the scene in question is supposed to be the most poignant and impactful one in the whole film, narratively. I found it really refreshing that they relied primarily on stunts for the action parts in the first two-thirds of the movie, and I think a lot of other people did too. I just wish they had made the whole movie that way.

It's also possible to make the argument that there exists a contradictory logic to the film using stylized violence to protest war. At least I've seen some people make that argument anyway. The contention is that the filmmakers and fans want to have our cake and eat it too. Well that's true to a certain degree! This is, after all, a blatant female power fantasy! (From a typical TV commercial: "Goddess. Warrior. Legend." :grin:) There may be a logical contradiction there, but it's not an impossible one to navigate, I don't think. The way to successfully have your cake and eat it too is to compromise and eat half the cake. That's what I think the Wonder Woman movie does by having our protagonist use a defense-based fighting style. There's a different feel to stylized defense-based fighting than there is to stylized offense-based fighting. I think it strikes the right balance, conveying Diana as more essentially assertive than aggressive as a character, even in battle, and that helps keep you psychologically connected to the purity of her motives.

Devil'sAdvocate
09-27-2017, 12:52 PM
I guess the fact that Wonder Woman was produced by the same company that made films full of misogyinst humor such as "The Hangover" doesn't matter to the OP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Warner_Bros._films

Kind of reminds me of that James Cameron "Avatar" film, which had an environmentalist message - a lot of liberals seemed to like it, but also seemed to not know or care that it was made by News Corporation, the same company that owns Fox News. *facepalm*

This is why expecting any major "media" franchise to genuinely care about some trendy "cause" like feminism is dumb, the primary motive behind the films is just profit, not "social justice" or any trendy cause like that, and if it's more profitable in 5 years, the same companies will put out a film with a "pro-Trump" message.

Thinking that you're "supporting a cause" just by buying an $8 dollar ticket to a mediocre movie is just feel-good 'slacktivism' at its dumbest.

IMPress Polly
09-27-2017, 02:00 PM
Devil's Advocate wrote:
I guess the fact that Wonder Woman was produced by the same company that made films full of misogyinst humor such as "The Hangover" doesn't matter to the OP:

I don't forgive The Hangover, but its existence doesn't preclude the fact that Wonder Woman is an awesome movie! :cool2:

Anyway, I notice that you have developed a bizarre obsession with patrolling all my threads, or at least the ones dealing with gender politics anyway. Do you treat other PF members the same way or is this specifically an obsession with me personally? I'm curious because it's starting to feel juuuuust a tad bit creepy.

Cletus
09-27-2017, 02:32 PM
I don't forgive The Hangover, but its existence doesn't preclude the fact that Wonder Woman is an awesome movie! :cool2:

Anyway, I notice that you have developed a bizarre obsession with patrolling all my threads, or at least the ones dealing with gender politics anyway. Do you treat other PF members the same way or is this specifically an obsession with me personally? I'm curious because it's starting to feel juuuuust a tad bit creepy.

If you don't want people to respond to your threads, don't post. The idea of another poster being obsessed with you is just plain silly. You are not really very interesting.

Captain Obvious
09-27-2017, 02:48 PM
If you don't want people to respond to your threads, don't post. The idea of another poster being obsessed with you is just plain silly. You are not really very interesting.

This newbie is a creeper though, I have little doubt the forum ladies have the skin crawls right now.

Devil'sAdvocate
09-27-2017, 02:51 PM
If you don't want people to respond to your threads, don't post. The idea of another poster being obsessed with you is just plain silly. You are not really very interesting.
If I was creeping on her, my interest stopped the second I viewed her profile and saw that selfie.

I'm drawn toward topics on "gender politics" as of late because of all the hysteria the subject has generated on social media in recent months. And folks hysterical about "gender politics" usually give ridiculous responses that I find funny.

Devil'sAdvocate
09-27-2017, 02:52 PM
This newbie is a creeper though, I have little doubt the forum ladies have the skin crawls right now.
That's what your wife said.

Captain Obvious
09-27-2017, 02:54 PM
lawl

Devil'sAdvocate
09-27-2017, 03:10 PM
Back to the topic, if the OP likes the film on its own right, cool.

I didn't read the whole essay, but the jist of it was that she viewed it as some kind of advancement of feminism and was encouraging people to see it for that reason. In fact I put her on ignore myself to save her the trouble.

But fact is it was produced by Warner Bros, the same company which produced films like "the Hangover" which was a comedy full of misogynist humor, which is why assuming the producers of films like this "really care about feminism" and aren't just jumping on the latest "social justice" bandwagon hoping to turn a profit is pretty naive to me.

Ethereal
09-27-2017, 05:37 PM
Finally got around to watching Wonder Woman (rented it on Red Box). Was the typical, formulaic superhero movie where everything in it - the characters, the dialog, the plot - exist only to provide an excuse for mindless action sequences. Any moral complexity or nuance that could be examined is literally kicked through walls and slammed into the ground like so many faceless Germans who are killed or maimed as the admittedly naive protagonist smashes her way across Europe. To the extent this underlying complexity is subject to examination, it is ultimately superficial, fleeting, and cheap. The ensemble cast are given similarly short shrift as their background stories are explained in the most perfunctory and cursory fashion, giving precious little insight into their present psychological states and underlying motivations. That said, the movie was not all bad. Like all big budget superhero movies, its strength lies in its visual splendor and scope. Gal Gadot is a competent actress who manages to portray the heroine effectively. And it does not hurt that she is physical perfection made manifest. However, these scant positives are not enough to redeem what is ultimately a hollow action movie whose hamfisted attempts to impart lessons of morality are overwhelmed by an interminable and obsessive fixation on explosions, implosions, and other forms of physical destruction.

2.5 stars out of 4.

Devil'sAdvocate
09-27-2017, 05:39 PM
Finally got around to watching Wonder Woman (rented it on Red Box). Was the typical, formulaic superhero movie where everything in it - the characters, the dialog, the plot - exist only to provide an excuse for mindless action sequences. Any moral complexity or nuance that could be examined is literally kicked through walls and slammed into the ground like so many faceless Germans who are killed or maimed as the admittedly naive protagonist smashes her way across Europe. To the extent this underlying complexity is subject to examination, it is ultimately superficial, fleeting, and cheap. The ensemble cast are given similarly short shrift as their background stories are explained in the most perfunctory and cursory fashion, giving precious little insight into their present psychological states and underlying motivations. That said, the movie was not all bad. Like all big budget superhero movies, its strength lies in its visual splendor and scope. Gal Gadot is a competent actress who manages to portray the heroine effectively. And it does not hurt that she is physical perfection made manifest. However, these scant positives are not enough to redeem what is ultimately a hollow action movie whose hamfisted attempts to impart lessons of morality are overwhelmed by an interminable and obsessive fixation on explosions, implosions, and other forms of physical destruction.

2.5 stars out of 4.
I figure that is what it would have been like, and that's what I see most of the Superhero films as anyway, so it was probably no different - they're mainly designed just to be light-hearted action which is fun for the whole family, not micro-analyzed like some philosophical treatise or viewed as some "serious political statement".

Chris
09-27-2017, 05:53 PM
Finally got around to watching Wonder Woman (rented it on Red Box). Was the typical, formulaic superhero movie where everything in it - the characters, the dialog, the plot - exist only to provide an excuse for mindless action sequences. Any moral complexity or nuance that could be examined is literally kicked through walls and slammed into the ground like so many faceless Germans who are killed or maimed as the admittedly naive protagonist smashes her way across Europe. To the extent this underlying complexity is subject to examination, it is ultimately superficial, fleeting, and cheap. The ensemble cast are given similarly short shrift as their background stories are explained in the most perfunctory and cursory fashion, giving precious little insight into their present psychological states and underlying motivations. That said, the movie was not all bad. Like all big budget superhero movies, its strength lies in its visual splendor and scope. Gal Gadot is a competent actress who manages to portray the heroine effectively. And it does not hurt that she is physical perfection made manifest. However, these scant positives are not enough to redeem what is ultimately a hollow action movie whose hamfisted attempts to impart lessons of morality are overwhelmed by an interminable and obsessive fixation on explosions, implosions, and other forms of physical destruction.

2.5 stars out of 4.


Well, then, as one who likes amoral action sequences I look forward to being entertained!

I would suppose the shallowness of lends it agendized reinterpretation.

Ethereal
09-27-2017, 05:54 PM
I figure that is what it would have been like, and that's what I see most of the Superhero films as anyway, so it was probably no different - they're mainly designed just to be light-hearted action which is fun for the whole family, not micro-analyzed like some philosophical treatise or viewed as some "serious political statement".
Yea, it was dumb. Germans bad, Americans good, with only scant moments of reflection on the moral ambiguities. I mean, you have to ask yourself how Wonder Woman reconciles her merciless destruction of dozens if not hundreds of German troops (many of whom are just naive young men fighting in a war they do not understand) with her ostensible commitment to saving humanity and protecting life. In other words, a movie that tries to revel in the transcendence of humanity utterly deprives the Germans of any humanity or complexity and treats them as mere props to be maimed, mangled, and destroyed by a flawless Amazonian beauty. But I did not expect anything more from this movie than gorgeous visuals, bombastic action, and light humor, which is why I feel as if I got my money's worth.

Green Arrow
09-27-2017, 07:00 PM
Yea, it was dumb. Germans bad, Americans good, with only scant moments of reflection on the moral ambiguities. I mean, you have to ask yourself how Wonder Woman reconciles her merciless destruction of dozens if not hundreds of German troops (many of whom are just naive young men fighting in a war they do not understand) with her ostensible commitment to saving humanity and protecting life. In other words, a movie that tries to revel in the transcendence of humanity utterly deprives the Germans of any humanity or complexity and treats them as mere props to be maimed, mangled, and destroyed by a flawless Amazonian beauty. But I did not expect anything more from this movie than gorgeous visuals, bombastic action, and light humor, which is why I feel as if I got my money's worth.

And that's something that has always bugged me. I get portraying WWII Germans as bad, they at least gave somewhat logical reason for that, but WWI Germans? How the fuck did we get around to treating them like the spawn of Satan?

Mister D
09-27-2017, 07:05 PM
And that's something that has always bugged me. I get portraying WWII Germans as bad, they at least gave somewhat logical reason for that, but WWI Germans? How the $#@! did we get around to treating them like the spawn of Satan?

The subjection of Germany was the whole point of both world wars. Anti-German (indeed, anti-European) attitudes have a long history among the liberal democracies.

Adelaide
09-28-2017, 08:50 AM
If I was creeping on her, my interest stopped the second I viewed her profile and saw that selfie.

I'm drawn toward topics on "gender politics" as of late because of all the hysteria the subject has generated on social media in recent months. And folks hysterical about "gender politics" usually give ridiculous responses that I find funny.

Do not insult other members.