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Hal Jordan
08-31-2017, 01:32 PM
It's time for another Town Hall. This Town Hall has a specific focus, the VIP system. This is a fairly unique system, and we (Mods and VIPs) are taking a serious look at it and were wanting input from the membership.

What are your general thoughts on the VIP system?

What ways would be beneficial for improving member input on forum management? Examples would include a suggestion box, Town Halls, ease in becoming VIPs, etc.

What are some ideas that you have for the VIP system?

Now, as this Town Hall has a specific focus, there are some ground rules that need to be set. The focus is the VIP system, and off-topic posts will lead to threadbans. The focus is not specific VIPs or former VIPs, and trying to make them a focus will lead to threadbans. With those warnings out of the way, let discussion commence.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 01:35 PM
VIP's are dropping like flies and I understand VIP activity is minimal outside of bitching.

Cletus
08-31-2017, 01:37 PM
Have the VIPs selected by the general membership.

jimmyz
08-31-2017, 02:11 PM
Aside from reading other member's opinions about specific VIPs and the VIP system in general I've not had the existence of a VIP forum or specific VIP members overtly affect me on tPF. I do understand they direct policy changes and probably have input in membership punishment.

I do second Cletus' idea that VIPs elected by members is a good idea. We could have a length of term and a good rotation of VIPs.

Do VIPs resign or are they elected out by the VIP membership?

Its difficult to opine on a sub-membership who's inner workings are secret.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 02:14 PM
I don't give the VIP's much thought. I don't know how they benefit the forum.

Bethere
08-31-2017, 02:40 PM
It's time for another Town Hall. This Town Hall has a specific focus, the VIP system. This is a fairly unique system, and we (Mods and VIPs) are taking a serious look at it and were wanting input from the membership.

What are your general thoughts on the VIP system?

What ways would be beneficial for improving member input on forum management? Examples would include a suggestion box, Town Halls, ease in becoming VIPs, etc.

What are some ideas that you have for the VIP system?

Now, as this Town Hall has a specific focus, there are some ground rules that need to be set. The focus is the VIP system, and off-topic posts will lead to threadbans. The focus is not specific VIPs or former VIPs, and trying to make them a focus will lead to threadbans. With those warnings out of the way, let discussion commence.
Whatever you guys decide you need to 1) introduce a democratic element into a decidedly undemocratic process, and 2) protect the minority , which at the moment is endangered/seriously under siege.

Thanks for listening.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 02:45 PM
Better an echo chamber than poisoned with low lifes, trolls and hyenas.

jimmyz
08-31-2017, 02:48 PM
Whatever you guys decide you need to 1) introduce a democratic element into a decidedly undemocratic process, and 2) protect the minority , which at the moment is endangered/seriously under siege.

Thanks for listening.
"Protect the minority" from what. Who is the minority? Why is "protection" needed on a political discussion board? Does the perceived minority need "protection" from words or ideas counter to theirs? That does not seem like how a board should be.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 02:49 PM
Whatever you guys decide you need to 1) introduce a democratic element into a decidedly undemocratic process, and 2) protect the minority , which at the moment is endangered/seriously under siege.

Thanks for listening.

If the VIP system is going to remain in place, I don't care how they are selected.



I don't know which minority you think is endangered or under siege or how the VIP system addresses that.

Bethere
08-31-2017, 02:56 PM
"Protect the minority" from what. Who is the minority? Why is "protection" needed on a political discussion board? Does the perceived minority need "protection" from words or ideas counter to theirs? That does not seem like how a board should be.

See #6.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 02:58 PM
See #6.


Which minority here is under siege and is in need of protection and how is that relative to the VIP system?

Bethere
08-31-2017, 03:02 PM
If the VIP system is going to remain in place, I don't care how they are selected.



I don't know which minority you think is endangered or under siege or how the VIP system addresses that.

I think it could use a little tweaking. How about electing a couple of members? One liberal and one conservative. Make sure the minority has representation on the mod team as well.

I don't want this to become a thread about me, and it will. So I am out of here. If anyone wants to talk more? Feel free to pm.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 03:05 PM
"Protect the minority" from what. Who is the minority? Why is "protection" needed on a political discussion board? Does the perceived minority need "protection" from words or ideas counter to theirs? That does not seem like how a board should be.

By that he means trolls like him.

Eddie, del, bo, those people temp banned basically.

tPF has never found a way to deal with trolls and they are pretty much ruining the forum, chasing off or otherwise keeping quality members away.

LW trolls are protected because they are LW, the RW trolls were banned a long time ago.

Bottom line, it's tine for tPF to take out the trash and attract better members.

Private Pickle
08-31-2017, 03:08 PM
Just get rid of the VIPs... Why create the clique in the first place?

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 03:11 PM
I think it could use a little tweaking. How about electing a couple of members? One liberal and one conservative. Make sure the minority has representation on the mod team as well.

I don't want this to become a thread about me, and it will. So I am out of here. If anyone wants to talk more? Feel free to pm.


How does one one determine whether the minority is liberal or conservative?

Hal Jordan
08-31-2017, 03:17 PM
Aside from reading other member's opinions about specific VIPs and the VIP system in general I've not had the existence of a VIP forum or specific VIP members overtly affect me on tPF. I do understand they direct policy changes and probably have input in membership punishment.

I do second Cletus' idea that VIPs elected by members is a good idea. We could have a length of term and a good rotation of VIPs.

Do VIPs resign or are they elected out by the VIP membership?

Its difficult to opine on a sub-membership who's inner workings are secret.
For the most part, VIPs have resigned in the past. There are circumstances where they can be removed, though.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:18 PM
As a former VIP, I can tell you the VIP system contributes very little to the forum in terms of benefits. For whatever reason, certain people, when they become a VIP, let the title go to their head. They forget they are just a member of a political forum, like the rest of us, and begin to assume an air of privilege and superiority. I've also seen blatant partisanship influence how certain VIP members conduct themselves behind the scenes, which has real consequences for the forum. We can see it in the ratio of conservatives banned to liberals banned since August 2016 (when the MODS started posting that data). As far as I'm concerned, there is simply no need for a VIP system. The MODS in consultation with ADMIN are more than adequate for the purposes of managing the forum. And the MODS tend to be less influenced by the petty grudges and partisanship that characterizes the daily reality of the forum. In short, the VIP system is a drain on the forum and a waste of everyone's time. The people who are most in favor of keeping it are the people who like the privilege and feeling of superiority it affords them. That is not a good reason to keep it around.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 03:18 PM
...What are your general thoughts on the VIP system?

What ways would be beneficial for improving member input on forum management? Examples would include a suggestion box, Town Halls, ease in becoming VIPs....

I would not favor having VIP's elected by the membership at large. I would support a system where admin announces someone is under consideration as a new VIP's, then solicits input from the members for a few days. The final decision is based on the feedback received.

Hal Jordan
08-31-2017, 03:20 PM
Have the VIPs selected by the general membership.

How would you suggest that be done? This question is for the others that suggested a more democratic method of selecting VIPs as well.

Hal Jordan
08-31-2017, 03:23 PM
Whatever you guys decide you need to 1) introduce a democratic element into a decidedly undemocratic process, and 2) protect the minority , which at the moment is endangered/seriously under siege.

Thanks for listening.
As I asked Cletus, how would you suggest making it more democratic?

Could you elaborate on your second point?

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 03:26 PM
I think admin should retain control over who is considered to become a VIP, but accept input from the membership before the final decision is made. Now the decision is made public as to who has been selected with no input from the membership at all.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:27 PM
Democracy in this context is unavoidably partisan.

Liberals will vote for liberals; conservatives will vote for conservatives; libertarians will vote for libertarians; etc.

Granted, there will be some variation, but in general the votes will be along partisan lines.

This logic also applies to the VIP system itself.

As the circle of VIPS expands, the more likely it is that partisan concerns will influence the process. I witnessed this firsthand.

That is why it is better to just leaves thing up to a small group of MODS who consult with ADMIN. That is not to say they will be immune to partisan influences, only that they will be less influenced by it.

Put another way, the management of the forum should be more technocratic than democratic, which means we shouldn't have a VIP system, let alone a popular vote to decide who becomes a VIP.

jimmyz
08-31-2017, 03:28 PM
The stumbling block with regular member democratic election of VIPs is the partisanship. So maybe that is not such a good idea.

IMO there is not solution needed for a problem that doesn't exist. I wouldn't wish VIP or Mod status on anyone.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:33 PM
The stumbling block with regular member democratic election of VIPs is the partisanship. So maybe that is not such a good idea.

IMO there is not solution needed for a problem that doesn't exist. I wouldn't wish VIP or Mod status on anyone.

MODS have real responsibilities, so I can see why you would say that about them. But VIPS have no real responsibilities or even accountability to the forum. They just talk among themselves in total secret and try to influence the MODS to pass rules and take actions they personally want to see happen. Nobody gets to see how VIPS effect the forum unless a VIP or a former VIP deigns to inform them. At least when MODS do things we can see public announcements and warnings and we can reference the forum rules and guidelines to cross reference their behavior. With VIPS, they have privileges and influence without the corresponding accountability. A VIP is just a regular member who has been given a fancy title and a little extra power. There is simply no reason to keep them around. I mean, can anyone give me a single example of how the VIP system has improved the forum? By definition, you cannot, since everything they do occurs in total secrecy.

Bethere
08-31-2017, 03:34 PM
As I asked Cletus, how would you suggest making it more democratic?

Could you elaborate on your second point?

I mean this with all respect. If you were really listening to what I was saying you would have asked this question via pm.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:36 PM
I mean this with all respect. If you were really listening to what I was saying you would have asked this question via pm.
In other words, you refuse to defend your arguments in public.

What a shocker.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:38 PM
Could you elaborate on your second point?
That's his way of saying the MODS are unfairly targeting the poor little liberals, despite the fact that more than twice as many conservatives have been banned since MODS started posting that data in August 2016.

This is what I mean by partisanship influencing the VIP system. There is simply no way to get around it, which is why the system needs to be done away entirely. All it does is give certain members the opportunity to exercise influence over the forum in secret.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 03:38 PM
In other words, you refuse to defend your arguments in public.

What a shocker.

Lies and spin work better behind the scenes than in the front page.

Hal Jordan
08-31-2017, 03:38 PM
Again, this is about the VIP system, not about members. Threadbans will follow.

Coming to you from the depths of inner space

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 03:39 PM
I think admin should retain control over who is considered to become a VIP, but accept input from the membership before the final decision is made. Now the decision is made public as to who has been selected with no input from the membership at all.

I don't think ADMIN wants to be involved.

The forum children keep dragging him into shit.

Captain Obvious
08-31-2017, 03:40 PM
Again, this is about the VIP system, not about members. Threadbans will follow.

Coming to you from the depths of inner space

Just get rid of it, its not working anyway.

gamewell45
08-31-2017, 03:42 PM
I honestly have no clear idea what the VIP's are and what their function here is.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:43 PM
Lies and spin work better behind the scenes than in the front page.

Bethere and other members of the clique are whining about being unfairly targeted by the MODS. What this really means is they don't get their way 100% of the time. All you need to do in order to disprove their hypothesis is look at how many conservatives have been banned versus liberals. You can also look at how long it took to ban liberals like Cigar versus conservatives, i.e., MUCH longer. Del has been given an even longer rope than Cigar had. This is only because the clique stands behind them. For whatever reason, certain liberals interpret any challenge or resistance to their whims as unfair. If they don't get everything they want, exactly the way they want, then something must be wrong. I mean, just look at how they responded to losing the 2016 elections. This is just how they are.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:46 PM
I honestly have no clear idea what the VIP's are and what their function here is.
It's pretty simple.

They get a fancy title and some bold blue lettering to set them apart from the regular members.

And they get their own private forum to talk to each other and the MODS about how the forum should be run.

But nobody gets to see what they talk about or how they're influencing the forum.

And some of the more privileged VIPS like it that way.

In short, it's just a gratuitous ego booster for certain members of the forum.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 03:47 PM
Again, this is about the VIP system, not about members. Threadbans will follow.

Coming to you from the depths of inner space

I only just saw this now.

I will try to keep it only to the VIP system and not members.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 04:01 PM
Have the VIPs selected by the general membership.

Why keep them around at all?

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:20 PM
What can you VIPs tell me about the VIP system? What is it for? How are VIPs selected? Are VIPS subject to appraisals?

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 04:27 PM
I was under the impression that VIP's were responsible for tweaking or establishing the rules of the forum
and providing feedback on the issuing of infractions and bans. Mods and admin should be able to do that themselves. It seems to me that the rules of the forum are established. Enforcing the rules is the problem, not creating more.

It it might be best to eliminate the position as it's redundant.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 04:28 PM
What can you VIPs tell me about the VIP system? What is it for? How are VIPs selected? Are VIPS subject to appraisals?

They are basically the ones who make the rules. They also advise ADMIN and us Mods when we need it. They look for ways to improve the forum and set the example for what is expected from the membership.

They choose other VIP's from the general membership based on quality of posts, adherence to the rules and participation.

The only "appraisal the that are subject to at present is that we expect them to be somewhat active, although like many of us, life does happen sometimes.

For the record, they do not Moderate nor do they have any say in how the Mod team handles rule violations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:30 PM
It's pretty simple.

They get a fancy title and some bold blue lettering to set them apart from the regular members.
And they get their own private forum to talk to each other and the MODS about how the forum should be run.
But nobody gets to see what they talk about or how they're influencing the forum.
And some of the more privileged VIPS like it that way.
In short, it's just a gratuitous ego booster for certain members of the forum.
I have a few questions.

What is this board's purpose? I assume it is to generate income for its owners.
Given that what role do moderators and VIPs each play in increasing net income?

What responsibilities do moderators have?
What responsibilities do VIPs have?

Given the clear divisiveness of the VIP system, operating in secret, is it helping to accomplish healthy board growth?

Are there metrics? How much additional traffic is generated by the VIPs? How much is generated by members?

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:33 PM
They are basically the ones who make the rules. They also advise ADMIN and us Mods when we need it. They look for ways to improve the forum and set the example for what is expected from the membership.
They choose other VIP's from the general membership based on quality of posts, adherence to the rules and participation.
The only "appraisal the that are subject to at present is that we expect them to be somewhat active, although like many of us, life does happen sometimes.
For the record, they do not Moderate nor do they have any say in how the Mod team handles rule violations.

So VIPs have no role in increasing the board's profitability through growth. Is that an oversight?

All of my posts are quality posts. How come I am not a VIP?

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:35 PM
Is there a visible list of VIPs?

Do they ever expire (short of expiring)? Should they?

If they are advising on rules why not eliminate them and ask for volunteers to discuss rules from time to time?

Who is growing the board?

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 04:35 PM
All of my posts are quality posts. How come I am not a VIP?

You're too rough around the edges and too conservative. You gotta be smooth and slick and moderate if you want to join the elite ranks of the VIPS.

Agent Zero
08-31-2017, 04:36 PM
I don't see the need for a VIP section but to be honest it doesn't affect me. I also feel we don't really need to vote for VIPs, this place is too much of a clique fest as it is.

My suggestion would be to pursue more honest and unbiased moderation and get rid of the VIP thing.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:36 PM
They are basically the ones who make the rules. They also advise ADMIN and us Mods when we need it. They look for ways to improve the forum and set the example for what is expected from the membership.

So VIPs are the legislative branch. They are accountable to no one.
The mods are both the executive branch and the judicial branch.

AeonPax
08-31-2017, 04:37 PM
`
`
As a member, you get to buy valuable VIP merchandise like coffee cups, kitchen magnets and jock straps at 50% off.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:39 PM
You're too rough around the edges and too conservative. You gotta be smooth and slick and moderate if you want to join the elite ranks of the VIPS.
I sense that VIPs are so moderate they are essentially invisible and perhaps worthless.

Fortunately, I have no desire for further fame and fortune (that I am willing to openly discuss anyway). :-)

Rough around the edges? me? LOL

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 04:40 PM
I sense that VIPs are so moderate they are essentially invisible and perhaps worthless.

Fortunately, I have no desire for further fame and fortune (that I am willing to openly discuss anyway). :-)

Rough around the edges? me? LOL
Invisible and worthless, yes. But influential nonetheless, and not in a good way.

Agent Zero
08-31-2017, 04:43 PM
Is there a visible list of VIPs?


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From the looks of the list, three or four never post, one, an excellent poster, was run off the forum by another one, a troll, who IMO should be defrocked of VIPhood immediately, of those who post, 7 appear to be liberal, 8 appear to be conservative, and the others: ?

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:50 PM
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From the looks of the list, three or four never post, one, an excellent poster, was run off the forum by another one who IMO should be defrocked of VIPhood immediately, of those who post, 7 appear to be liberal, 8 appear to be conservative, and the others:?
Thank you.

Maybe this group should propose rule changes for discussion by board members. It is not a list I would have expected for rule makers. What guides them?

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 04:52 PM
Thank you.

Maybe this group should propose rule changes for discussion by board members. It is not a list I would have expected for rule makers. What guides them?

Most of them are just fine. It's a small minority of partisans who are perverting the process.

stjames1_53
08-31-2017, 04:57 PM
VIP.............it creates animosity between the "elites" and the rest of the forum. It is used to shelter those who should otherwise hang by their own words.
Mods are a group onto themselves and are needed to regulate what would otherwise turn into a series of brawls.
If I understand it, the VIP is being used to move, politically, against other members. File a report against a VIP and it gets ignored. IF it is handled, it is done so out of sight to the rest of the forum. I have yet to see a VIP get the can when their actions far outdo the regular forum members. What would get me banned, for example, will go unpunished to them.
They can troll, insult, demean, and cause discord among the "troops"....in other words, they are protected and suffer no consequence, yet they are given the authority to act against any member they target by holding private meetings to determine who they get to f*&k with next. There is no reprisal allowed from the trenches.
So, my question is, since they serve no valuable service to the forum, why have that position at all?
This is supposed to be a member-run forum. That is the internet claim. In the final analysis, that hardly seems the case, since the fox is guarding the henhouse.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 04:58 PM
Most of them are just fine. It's a small minority of partisans who are perverting the process.
I see a couple of children, a couple of Marxists, a communist, some socialists..

I see one person I believe to have integrity, wisdom, and foresight.

But who is looking out for the healthy growth of the board? Who is generating more board traffic to increase revenues?

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 05:03 PM
I see a couple of children, a couple of Marxists, a communist, some socialists..

I see one person I believe to have integrity, wisdom, and foresight.

But who is looking out for the healthy growth of the board? Who is generating more board traffic to increase revenues?
Beats me. I don't have access to that data. And, frankly, that's not my concern. I don't make any money off this website. What I want is a place for good discussion of politics. The VIP system detracts from that.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 05:07 PM
Beats me. I don't have access to that data. And, frankly, that's not my concern. I don't make any money off this website. What I want is a place for good discussion of politics. The VIP system detracts from that.
To build a good system one must understand the system's purpose. If the purpose is unclear then one part of the system may seriously detract from the whole system.

The system's purpose, the board's purpose is to generate revenues, profit. Everything done must advance that purpose. It matters little that the member does not care or benefit financially.

If I were building a site I would want people involved who can bring in more active members. More active members mean more content and more eyeballs. More eyeballs mean more revenue.

resister
08-31-2017, 05:11 PM
Just get rid of the VIPs... Why create the clique in the first place?
Much agreed, why have a caste system when many of the members make a joke of the mission statement.

Adelaide
08-31-2017, 05:12 PM
To build a good system one must understand the system's purpose. If the purpose is unclear then one part of the system may seriously detract from the whole system.

The system's purpose, the board's purpose is to generate revenues, profit. Everything done must advance that purpose. It matters little that the member does not care or benefit financially.

If I were building a site I would want people involved who can bring in more active members. More active members mean more content and more eyeballs. More eyeballs mean more revenue.

The only profit that matters is that the site gets what it needs to operate. It is not a business that wants a profit. Any profit made would go towards improving the site, or for a rainy day. Hence, we have advertisements.

I would suggest the main purpose of the forum is for discussion, and that rather than building revenue we should aim to build content and by extension the number of members. Quality threads, quality posts, quality members. That kind of thing.

stjames1_53
08-31-2017, 05:12 PM
To build a good system one must understand the system's purpose. If the purpose is unclear then one part of the system may seriously detract from the whole system.

The system's purpose, the board's purpose is to generate revenues, profit. Everything done must advance that purpose. It matters little that the member does not care or benefit financially.

If I were building a site I would want people involved who can bring in more active members. More active members mean more content and more eyeballs. More eyeballs mean more revenue.

under our current system, how many new members have actually joined and remained?

Common
08-31-2017, 05:22 PM
VIP status should be based on Forum Participation and forum loyalty <are you here regularly etc> and they should be chosen by the Admin and the Mods. That ends the favoritism and the clique mentality and the partisan element that I believe always played into it.

Letting the General membership choose vips would be worse than just having 17 choose them.

I believe the VIPS should not have anything to say about forum rules and discipline nor should they be discussing other members.
VIP status should be just for forum loyalty and participation and have a non authoritive position and just have a hightlighted name to note their loyalty and status as a long time forum regular.

Its not a member run forum if you have just 17 people some of whom rarely post or start threads for discussion making the decisions for the rest that do.

Agent Cooper
08-31-2017, 05:23 PM
Why keep them around at all?
That's the truth.

The two mysteries of forums:
1. VIP status. Who wants it? Who needs it?
2. Post count. Get a forking life, for God's sake. When I see a poster with a high post count, I shun him/her. I don't much care for forum whores.

resister
08-31-2017, 05:23 PM
VIP.............it creates animosity between the "elites" and the rest of the forum. It is used to shelter those who should otherwise hang by their own words.
Mods are a group onto themselves and are needed to regulate what would otherwise turn into a series of brawls.
If I understand it, the VIP is being used to move, politically, against other members. File a report against a VIP and it gets ignored. IF it is handled, it is done so out of sight to the rest of the forum. I have yet to see a VIP get the can when their actions far outdo the regular forum members. What would get me banned, for example, will go unpunished to them.
They can troll, insult, demean, and cause discord among the "troops"....in other words, they are protected and suffer no consequence, yet they are given the authority to act against any member they target by holding private meetings to determine who they get to f*&k with next. There is no reprisal allowed from the trenches.
So, my question is, since they serve no valuable service to the forum, why have that position at all?
This is supposed to be a member-run forum. That is the internet claim. In the final analysis, that hardly seems the case, since the fox is guarding the henhouse.
This^ If it is input from the forum to improve the forum, let the forum tell the mods and ADMIN as a whole​ hold weekly town halls.

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 05:26 PM
I humbly suggest having no VIP members whatsoever. I'd also prefer no moderators. If words on a computer screen from anonymous people upset you that much, use the ignore feature or log off.

Common
08-31-2017, 05:30 PM
I humbly suggest having no VIP members whatsoever. I'd also prefer no moderators. If words on a computer screen from anonymous people upset you that much, use the ignore feature or log off.
Moderators are a must to maintan decorum and enforce the rules, Vips are not

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 05:39 PM
This^ If it is input from the forum to improve the forum, let the forum tell the mods and ADMIN as a whole​ hold weekly town halls.
A town hall type thing isn't needed on a weekly basis. Maybe monthly.

Common
08-31-2017, 05:43 PM
A town hall type thing isn't needed on a weekly basis. Maybe monthly.
I agree

Agent Zero
08-31-2017, 05:46 PM
I see a couple of children, a couple of Marxists, a communist, some socialists..

I see one person I believe to have integrity, wisdom, and foresight.


Thanks, but I'm not a VIP.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 05:47 PM
I see one person I believe to have integrity, wisdom, and foresight.

Thanks, but I'm not a VIP.
You can relax. You will always be safe from the comment above.

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 05:57 PM
Moderators are a must to maintan decorum and enforce the rules, Vips are not

I prefer a free market approach, with an ignore feature for those who are easily offended. What rules really need enforcing?

Common
08-31-2017, 06:03 PM
I prefer a free market approach, with an ignore feature for those who are easily offended. What rules really need enforcing?

Kalkin seriously? without mods the forum would be a Rage and hate and insult fest with some really low class members talking about others mothers and daughters and families in general.

I dont know of a single forum that does not have moderation

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 06:09 PM
Thanks, but I'm not a VIP. If you were, that would be an indictment of the program. A VIP should be someone who is a positive addition to the forum. Someone who rarely engages in baiting or trolling comments. Someone who contributes substantive comments which further a discussion. Obviously, that's not you.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 06:12 PM
I prefer a free market approach, with an ignore feature for those who are easily offended. What rules really need enforcing?
Why establish rules if you are unwilling or unable to enforce them?

The Xl
08-31-2017, 06:17 PM
We get free hookers and coke. Sucks to be you plebs.











Naw, nothing exciting really goes on in the VIP room anyway. Whatever changes happen to be made, it's whatever. If it gets done away with, whatever.

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 06:18 PM
Kalkin seriously? without mods the forum would be a Rage and hate and insult fest with some really low class members talking about others mothers and daughters and families in general.

I dont know of a single forum that does not have moderation

That's why the ignore feature is so important. Each individual member is then free to choose the level of vitriol they're willing to accept. If someone is so horrible that everone else ignores them, they will not affect the site at all. I know most prefer some semblence of rules, but, to me, an anonymous forum needs no rules. I know this won't actually happen, but I'd be fine with it if it did. Maybe the lone rule could be: If 75% of the forum has you on ignore, you get banned.

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 06:20 PM
Why establish rules if you are unwilling or unable to enforce them?

Or, even worse, they are selectively applied for political or personal reasons.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 06:22 PM
That's why the ignore feature is so important. Each individual member is then free to choose the level of vitriol they're willing to accept. If someone is so horrible that everone else ignores them, they will not affect the site at all. I know most prefer some semblence of rules, but, to me, an anonymous forum needs no rules. I know this won't actually happen, but I'd be fine with it if it did. Maybe the lone rule could be: If 75% of the forum has you on ignore, you get banned.
The Greeks practiced ostracism. Let's vote every other month for the person we would like to banish. Make the ban last for 60 days.

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 06:32 PM
The Greeks practiced ostracism. Let's vote every other month for the person we would like to banish. Make the ban last for 60 days.

I like that option, too, even if you or I were on the receiving end occasionally.

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 06:33 PM
I like that option, too, even if you or I were on the receiving end occasionally.
I post in other places.

Cthulhu
08-31-2017, 06:37 PM
I have a few questions.

What is this board's purpose? I assume it is to generate income for its owners.
Given that what role do moderators and VIPs each play in increasing net income?

What responsibilities do moderators have?
What responsibilities do VIPs have?

Given the clear divisiveness of the VIP system, operating in secret, is it helping to accomplish healthy board growth?

Are there metrics? How much additional traffic is generated by the VIPs? How much is generated by members?If this board were a for profit venture, as a former VIP - I'd have fired everybody.

Pretty much nothing you posted has anything to do with what they do.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

jimmyz
08-31-2017, 06:48 PM
Man... I come here for fun. Does anyone remember fun?. You post shit or real content. Click banners to profit and help forum costs and argue with people you dont know. What the F am I missing?

MisterVeritis
08-31-2017, 06:51 PM
If this board were a for profit venture, as a former VIP - I'd have fired everybody.Pretty much nothing you posted has anything to do with what they do.

Maybe that is why this board is not growing. If the VIPs are not doing anything of value why have them?

Agent Cooper
08-31-2017, 07:23 PM
I owned a forum for about 12 years. There were no rules. No bannings, no forbidden words, no rules. Period. It was lovely. Nobody got more bashing than me, simply because it was my forum. I just laughed.

Tahuyaman
08-31-2017, 07:32 PM
I owned a forum for about 12 years. There were no rules. No bannings, no forbidden words, no rules. Period. It was lovely. Nobody got more bashing than me, simply because it was my forum. I just laughed.
What happened to that forum?

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 07:41 PM
As a former VIP, I can tell you the VIP system contributes very little to the forum in terms of benefits. For whatever reason, certain people, when they become a VIP, let the title go to their head. They forget they are just a member of a political forum, like the rest of us, and begin to assume an air of privilege and superiority. I've also seen blatant partisanship influence how certain VIP members conduct themselves behind the scenes, which has real consequences for the forum. We can see it in the ratio of conservatives banned to liberals banned since August 2016 (when the MODS started posting that data). As far as I'm concerned, there is simply no need for a VIP system. The MODS in consultation with ADMIN are more than adequate for the purposes of managing the forum. And the MODS tend to be less influenced by the petty grudges and partisanship that characterizes the daily reality of the forum. In short, the VIP system is a drain on the forum and a waste of everyone's time. The people who are most in favor of keeping it are the people who like the privilege and feeling of superiority it affords them. That is not a good reason to keep it around.

If you look at the conservatives who were banned almost all of them were for blatant racism which is not a liberal characteristic, thus the imbalance you noted.

resister
08-31-2017, 07:45 PM
If you look at the conservatives who were banned almost all of them were for blatant racism which is not a liberal characteristic, thus the imbalance you noted.
Name some, it should be easy, I don't mean one or two either.

Your assertation that racism is a conservative characteristic but not present on the liberal side is pure partisan hackery:rollseyes:

Common
08-31-2017, 07:53 PM
Name some, it should be easy, I don't mean one or two either.

Your assertation that racism is a conservative characteristic but not present on the liberal side is pure partisan hackery:rollseyes:

Theres been quite a few banned for Racism and anti semetism, most only came here for a very brief time to post that garbage. However, crepitus and no else knows if they were conseravatives or just liberals signing on to break balls.

resister
08-31-2017, 07:57 PM
Theres been quite a few banned for Racism and anti semetism, most only came here for a very brief time to post that garbage. However, crepitus and no else knows if they were conseravatives or just liberals signing on to break balls.My thoughts exactly, you had the obvious storm fronters that get banned in 4 post of wretched jew hate. To him that = conservative:rollseyes:

He gleans quite a bit about a poster in 3 or 4 post:rollseyes:

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 07:58 PM
Name some, it should be easy, I don't mean one or two either.

Your assertation that racism is a conservative characteristic but not present on the liberal side is pure partisan hackery:rollseyes:

Just from the first page of the banned thread we have oboe, truth detector, Mr Rogers neighborhood, timelord, mac-7, and grassroots conservative. That's 6 out of 8+ one liberal.

Prosecution rests your honor.

resister
08-31-2017, 08:00 PM
Just from the first page of the banned thread we have oboe, truth detector, Mr Rogers neighborhood, timelord, mac-7, and grassroots conservative. That's 6 out of 8+ one liberal.

Prosecution rests your honor.
Just keep believing that no racism exist in the liberal party. They might not be so outright obvious about it, but it is surely there.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 08:03 PM
Theres been quite a few banned for Racism and anti semetism, most only came here for a very brief time to post that garbage. However, crepitus and no else knows if they were conseravatives or just liberals signing on to break balls.

None of those I listed were one-day-wonder stormfronters. Several of them were here for years, the rest for months at least.

Safety
08-31-2017, 08:04 PM
Name some, it should be easy, I don't mean one or two either.

Your assertation that racism is a conservative characteristic but not present on the liberal side is pure partisan hackery:rollseyes:

Oboe
Mac-7 - even though he was banned for refusing to stop criticizing Canadian members.
Jezabel
Grassroots conservative and grassroots
demystify
Cultsmasher
Akula
Chopped liver

Kalkin
08-31-2017, 08:05 PM
i owned a forum for about 12 years. There were no rules. No bannings, no forbidden words, no rules. Period. It was lovely. Nobody got more bashing than me, simply because it was my forum. I just laughed.

a.w.e.?

Chloe
08-31-2017, 08:09 PM
Oboe
Mac-7 - even though he was banned for refusing to stop criticizing Canadian members.
Jezabel
Grassroots conservative and grassroots
demystify
Cultsmasher
Akula
Chopped liver

Ugh, Chopped Liver was just a horrible human being in my opinion. Such a mean person.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 08:09 PM
Just keep believing that no racism exist in the liberal party. They might not be so outright obvious about it, but it is surely there.

Lol, I never said there is no racism in liberals, I said blatant racism is not a liberal characteristic. I sure there are some in the liberals but they are no where near as predominant or as loud about it.

resister
08-31-2017, 08:10 PM
Ugh, Chopped Liver was just a horrible human being in my opinion. Such a mean person.
Glad I never met him. I am continually underwhelmed by people.

hanger4
08-31-2017, 08:12 PM
Back to the topic y'all. Who is or isn't racist has no relevance here.

resister
08-31-2017, 08:14 PM
Back to the topic y'all. Who is or isn't racist has no relevance here.
OK, I have wondered why certain VIP's have two rows of bars?

stjames1_53
08-31-2017, 08:19 PM
and here I thought this was a town hall meeting about VIP's, not something that is destined for The Hole..........c'mon guys, let's get back on track, just this one time

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 08:20 PM
As far as the VIP SYSTEM goes I'm pretty indifferent. I don't know that they've really affected me one way or the other, and since their deliberations are carried out in secret I never will.

I also have no real desire to be one, and doubt I would ever get nominated anyway. I tend to be a bit "impulsive" at times. Lol.

Common
08-31-2017, 08:22 PM
Just from the first page of the banned thread we have oboe, truth detector, Mr Rogers neighborhood, timelord, mac-7, and grassroots conservative. That's 6 out of 8+ one liberal.

Prosecution rests your honor.
Many of them are one and the same person signing on as socks. Im not defending it, im just saying when someone signs on here just to post some crazy crap you nor anyone else knows who it is.

hanger4
08-31-2017, 08:23 PM
OK, I have wondered why certain VIP's have two rows of bars?

Nor do I, I've paid little to no attention to # of thanks, colored bars, rep points, avatars or whatever other goodies are given for whatever reasons. I hide post bits for data's sake.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 08:33 PM
Many of them are one and the same person signing on as socks. Im not defending it, im just saying when someone signs on here just to post some crazy crap you nor anyone else knows who it is.

Which ones?

Mister D
08-31-2017, 08:36 PM
Cultcrusher had at least 3 or 4 incarnations.

Agent Cooper
08-31-2017, 08:37 PM
What happened to that forum?

I got old and tired of it. I turned it over to a member who turned it into a Facebook thing.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:07 PM
Cultcrusher had at least 3 or 4 incarnations.

Among the names safety and I listed?

Dr. Who
08-31-2017, 09:10 PM
OK, I have wondered why certain VIP's have two rows of bars?

Hover your mouse over the bars and all will be revealed.

hanger4
08-31-2017, 09:16 PM
Hover your mouse over the bars and all will be revealed.

My phone has no mouse.

Adelaide
08-31-2017, 09:25 PM
My phone has no mouse.

They are "original ranters" - meaning, since the beginning of the forum, they have been here.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:27 PM
If you look at the conservatives who were banned almost all of them were for blatant racism which is not a liberal characteristic, thus the imbalance you noted.
I don't think people should be banned simply for being racists. The existence of such a rule can be attributed mostly to the influence of liberals. QED.

Dr. Who
08-31-2017, 09:28 PM
My phone has no mouse.
Ah, problem. The software was not designed with phones in mind. Blue bars are original Ranters, Red bars denote VIP members and Green Bars denote moderators.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:29 PM
Just from the first page of the banned thread we have oboe, truth detector, Mr Rogers neighborhood, timelord, mac-7, and grassroots conservative. That's 6 out of 8+ one liberal.

Prosecution rests your honor.

When those people were banned, nobody took up their defense.

When Cigar was on the chopping block, liberals rallied to the cause.

Pure partisanship.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:31 PM
I don't think people should be banned simply for being racists. The existence of such a rule can be attributed mostly to the influence of liberals. QED.

Notice I said blatant racism. They can be racist, but they can't do things like focus on it exclusively or blast the "n-word" out in public. Some things simply are not socially acceptable.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:33 PM
When those people were banned, nobody took up their defense.

When Cigar was on the chopping block, liberals rallied to the cause.

Pure partisanship.

Nobody took up their defense because everyone knew what these people were posting was indefensible.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:34 PM
Notice I said blatant racism. They can be racist, but they can't do things like focus on it exclusively or blast the "n-word" out in public. Some things simply are not socially acceptable.
As long as a poster is posting their genuine beliefs and political opinions, I don't really care how offensive it is. That would include "blatant racism". What I object to are people who refuse to discuss politics, who refuse to debate, and who refuse to make substantive arguments. So when those conservatives were banned, I didn't object because they were obnoxious trolling idiots. I pushed hard to get Truth Detector and Timelord banned, for example, because neither of them could debate an issue without constantly attacking and demeaning their opponent.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:35 PM
Nobody took up their defense because everyone knew what these people were posting was indefensible.

The implication being, that Cigar's endless trolling was somehow defensible? He was one of the most infracted members in the history of the forum. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:35 PM
As long as a poster is posting their genuine beliefs and political opinions, I don't really care how offensive it is. That would include "blatant racism". What I object to are people who refuse to discuss politics, who refuse to debate, and who refuse to make substantive arguments. So when those conservatives were banned, I didn't object because they were obnoxious trolling idiots. I pushed hard to get Truth Detector and Timelord banned, for example, because neither of them could debate an issue without constantly attacking and demeaning their opponent.

You may not care, obviously the forum at large does.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:37 PM
The implication being, that Cigar's endless trolling was somehow defensible? He was one of the most infracted members in the history of the forum. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Some was, some was not. Usually he had a point, but he had a strong tendency to go too far. Sometimes way too far.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:38 PM
You may not care, obviously the forum at large does.
I don't recall the forum "at large" voting on what rules we should have, so I'm not sure how you can make that claim.

In any case, the refusal to tolerate racism as a political opinion is clearly the result of liberal influence. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:38 PM
Some was, some was not. Usually he had a point, but he had a strong tendency to go too far. Sometimes way too far.

And, yet, he got a massive defense from liberal VIPS based purely on partisanship while nobody defended the conservative trolls who got banned.

Cletus
08-31-2017, 09:39 PM
How would you suggest that be done? This question is for the others that suggested a more democratic method of selecting VIPs as well.

What a slot is available, open the forum for nominations for a set period of time. When the nomination period is over, take the top 2 or 3 or whatever number you choose and open the forum for a general election, also for a set time period. What that time has expired, close the balloting and count the votes.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 09:42 PM
As long as a poster is posting their genuine beliefs and political opinions, I don't really care how offensive it is. That would include "blatant racism". What I object to are people who refuse to discuss politics, who refuse to debate, and who refuse to make substantive arguments. So when those conservatives were banned, I didn't object because they were obnoxious trolling idiots. I pushed hard to get Truth Detector and Timelord banned, for example, because neither of them could debate an issue without constantly attacking and demeaning their opponent.

I understand your point about people posting their genuine beliefs, however we also have good reason to keep blatant racism off of the public forum. One has to do with advertisements/google searches. There are certain things that we cannot allow if those are to continue. Without the ads, we would have to beg for donations, I'm sure.

The second is that we do not really want to attract blatant racists to the forum. If it is on the public forum, it can be found with a google search.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cletus
08-31-2017, 09:43 PM
Why keep them around at all?

I don't see a whole lot of use for them if they serve no real purpose. I am just suggesting that IF we are going to have them, they should be elected by the general membership.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:45 PM
I don't recall the forum "at large" voting on what rules we should have, so I'm not sure how you can make that claim.

In any case, the refusal to tolerate racism as a political opinion is clearly the result of liberal influence. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

I don't see how you can argue it is. Even our conservative members don't want to admit they support or even tolerate rascism.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 09:47 PM
And, yet, he got a massive defense from liberal VIPS based purely on partisanship while nobody defended the conservative trolls who got banned.

I couldn't speak for the vips, but I wish he had cleaned up his act a little so he could stick around.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:54 PM
I understand your point about people posting their genuine beliefs, however we also have good reason to keep blatant racism off of the public forum. One has to do with advertisements/google searches. There are certain things that we cannot allow if those are to continue. Without the ads, we would have to beg for donations, I'm sure.

The second is that we do not really want to attract blatant racists to the forum. If it is on the public forum, it can be found with a google search.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Then the solution is simple.

We just need to find a wealthy patron who is willing to subsidize our forum activity.

I will draft a letter and send it to the fifty richest people in the world explaining the situation.

I will dazzle them with my eloquence, brevity, and passion.

Money in the bank.

:grin:

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 09:56 PM
I don't see how you can argue it is. Even our conservative members don't want to admit they support or even tolerate rascism.
Toleration of racism is actually the norm in America, since it is perfectly legal and well within an individual's rights to hold racist beliefs.

Safety
08-31-2017, 10:23 PM
Toleration of racism is actually the norm in America, since it is perfectly legal and well within an individual's rights to hold racist beliefs.

..LoL, yet those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be called racists....funny that...and ironic.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:27 PM
..LoL, yet those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be called racists....funny that...and ironic.
Safety, this thread is not about your obsession with race, nor is it about your desire to find racism where none actually exists.

It's about the VIP system and all that comes with it.

Thanks.

Perianne
08-31-2017, 10:28 PM
..LoL, yet those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be called racists....funny that...and ironic.
Those that hold "racist beliefs" tend not to think of those beliefs as racist. The left has defined racism for everyone else and sometimes "racists" don't agree with those definitions.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:30 PM
Those that hold "racist beliefs" tend not to think of those beliefs as racist. The left has defined racism for everyone else and sometimes "racists" don't agree with those definitions.

The race card is all Safety has left at this point. Don't take it away from him.

Anyway, I think there is a pretty firm consensus among the regular members that the VIP system is pretty much worthless.

Either people want it done away with or they cannot see any reason to keep it.

In fact, I don't think I've seen a single post explaining why the VIP system is a good idea.

Adelaide
08-31-2017, 10:31 PM
Discuss the topic of the VIP system, or you will be thread banned.

Safety
08-31-2017, 10:33 PM
Toleration of racism is actually the norm in America, since it is perfectly legal and well within an individual's rights to hold racist beliefs.

This was your post.


..LoL, yet those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be called racists....funny that...and ironic.

This was my response to your post.


Safety, this thread is not about your obsession with race, nor is it about your desire to find racism where none actually exists.

It's about the VIP system and all that comes with it.

Thanks.

You opened the door, counselor, that makes it discussable. Furthermore, it addresses the subjectivity of the discussion as a whole, because if there are members here that think the VIPs are comprised of "liberal cliques", then the opportunity to expand the reasons why that mindset is present in the first place.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:35 PM
This was your post.



This was my response to your post.



You opened the door, counselor, that makes it discussable.
That post was an extension of a discussion of the forum rules concerning racist speech, rules that VIPS help to craft.

Your response was just race-obsessed drivel.

Please get back to the topic.

Perianne
08-31-2017, 10:36 PM
Discuss the topic of the VIP system, or you will be thread banned.

^ Sorry, Adelaide.

I have no opinion on VIP. I used to be one. I prefer just to visit the forum and let the mods make the decisions...as long as they are fair. VIPs don't seem to affect me one way or another.

Here is what I can say: I like the way the forum is moderated now. When I was here before there was waaaaaay too much trolling and hatefulness. If the VIPs facilitated that change, then I support them.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 10:37 PM
This was your post.



This was my response to your post.



You opened the door, counselor, that makes it discussable.

His was in the context of what is allowed on the forum, and therefore the rules that VIP's make. Yours drags it off topic. Please refrain from doing that so we don't have to resort to TB's. I hate having to use the full site on my phone so I can moderate.


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Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:37 PM
^ Sorry, Adelaide.

I have no opinion on VIP. I used to be one. I prefer just to visit the forum and let the mods make the decisions...as long as they are fair. VIPs don't seem to affect me one way or another.

Here is what I can say: I like the way the forum is moderated now. When I was here before there was waaaaaay too much trolling and hatefulness. If the VIPs facilitated that change, then I support them.
Based on my experience as a VIP, I can say the VIP system actually contributes to trolling, if anything.

Adelaide
08-31-2017, 10:39 PM
^ Sorry, Adelaide.

I have no opinion on VIP. I used to be one. I prefer just to visit the forum and let the mods make the decisions...as long as they are fair. VIPs don't seem to affect me one way or another.

Here is what I can say: I like the way the forum is moderated now. When I was here before there was waaaaaay too much trolling and hatefulness. If the VIPs facilitated that change, then I support them.

The VIPs were instrumental in that policy change, but it took place in 2016. A lot of members in this thread are discussing what the VIPs actually do because there have not been many VIP-group decisions since that one.

Safety
08-31-2017, 10:39 PM
That post was an extension of a discussion of the forum rules concerning racist speech, rules that VIPS help to craft.

Your response was just race-obsessed drivel.

Please get back to the topic.

Nope, it's all relative. It shows a pattern, and with patterns one can determine mindset. The same with saying the VIPs are not needed because they are comprised of "liberals". When people really read into the posts, they will see a noticeable pattern and should take that into consideration as to who is calling for it to be disbanded and the real reason why.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:42 PM
Nope, it's all relative. It shows a pattern, and with patterns one can determine mindset. The same with saying the VIPs are not needed because they are comprised of "liberals". When people really read into the posts, they will see a noticeable pattern and should take that into consideration as to who is calling for it to be disbanded and the real reason why.

I was discussing the forum RULES pertaining to racist speech, which necessarily concerns the VIP system, which is the topic of the thread.

Your comment was just a vague complaint about some unnamed posters who don't like being called racist, or something.

Stop dragging the thread off topic with your race obsession and your hypocrisy policing. Nobody is interested in it.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 10:42 PM
Nope, it's all relative. It shows a pattern, and with patterns one can determine mindset. The same with saying the VIPs are not needed because they are comprised of "liberals". When people really read into the posts, they will see a noticeable pattern and should take that into consideration as to who is calling for it to be disbanded and the real reason why.

Last request, please stick to the topic, which is not the mindsets of those responding to the thread. Thank you.


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Cletus
08-31-2017, 10:44 PM
Oboe
Mac-7 - even though he was banned for refusing to stop criticizing Canadian members.
Jezabel
Grassroots conservative and grassroots
demystify
Cultsmasher
Akula
Chopped liver

They couldn't have had too much of an impact because I only remember one name on that list.

Safety
08-31-2017, 10:44 PM
His was in the context of what is allowed on the forum, and therefore the rules that VIP's make. Yours drags it off topic. Please refrain from doing that so we don't have to resort to TB's. I hate having to use the full site on my phone so I can moderate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Disagree, for if the discussion about racism is going to be allowed "contextually", then a response to the discussion is not off-topic. Want to see off topic, then take note of the posts below....


The race card is all Safety has left at this point. Don't take it away from him.

Anyway, I think there is a pretty firm consensus among the regular members that the VIP system is pretty much worthless.

Either people want it done away with or they cannot see any reason to keep it.

In fact, I don't think I've seen a single post explaining why the VIP system is a good idea.


Safety, this thread is not about your obsession with race, nor is it about your desire to find racism where none actually exists.

It's about the VIP system and all that comes with it.

Thanks.

Perianne
08-31-2017, 10:44 PM
The VIPs were instrumental in that policy change, but it took place in 2016. A lot of members in this thread are discussing what the VIPs actually do because there have not seen many VIP-group decisions since that one.
Well, then, kudos to the VIPs being instrumental in that change. It was desperately needed.

Here is just a thought: Maybe the VIPs can be thought of like the House of Representatives. Any proposed changes to the forum could be aired to let people know what they are actually doing. Just like in Congress. Any bill filed is public knowledge. Secrecy is such things rarely works well.

It's just an idea. I know so little about how these things work that my ideas are essentially irrelevant. :)

Safety
08-31-2017, 10:46 PM
Last request, please stick to the topic, which is not the mindsets of those responding to the thread. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok, question....how can we discuss a topic, if we are not allowed to respond to criticisms introduced? If we are talking about forum members voting for VIPs and such, then can we not also discuss the politically motivated aspects of that vote and how it can be addressed equally?

Cletus
08-31-2017, 10:46 PM
Lol, I never said there is no racism in liberals, I said blatant racism is not a liberal characteristic.

Perhaps not, but covert or soft racism certainly is. It is almost universal among them. Please note, I said almost. I can think of maybe one or two who do not fall into that category.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 10:48 PM
Disagree, for if the discussion about racism is going to be allowed "contextually", then a response to the discussion is not off-topic. Want to see off topic, then take note of the posts below....
You saw the word "racism" and assumed, for whatever reason, that anything and everything pertaining to race and racism was suddenly on the table.

As usual, you are 100% wrong.

My discussion of racism specifically related to the RULES of the forum, which necessarily concerns the VIP system. Ergo, it was on topic.

Your comment was some vague remark about how certain posters don't like being called racists, which has absolutely nothing to do with the VIP system.

Maybe instead of dragging the thread totally off topic, you should try discussing the VIP system. Thus far, not a single poster has given a single reason why the system should remain in place. It appears you think it should stay. WHY?

Cletus
08-31-2017, 10:49 PM
You may not care, obviously the forum at large does.

Groupthink.

That doesn't make it right. I am inclined to agree with Ethereal on this.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 10:49 PM
Ok, question....how can we discuss a topic, if we are not allowed to respond to criticisms introduced? If we are talking about forum members voting for VIPs and such, then can we not also discuss the politically motivated aspects of that vote?

There was a general warning posted after that happened. I have now asked you personally twice to keep it on topic since that warning was posted.

I do not think that insinuating that members may be racist does anything to further the discussion. Do you have anything to add to the topic?


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Safety
08-31-2017, 11:11 PM
There was a general warning posted after that happened. I have now asked you personally twice to keep it on topic since that warning was posted.

I do not think that insinuating that members may be racist does anything to further the discussion. Do you have anything to add to the topic?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, going by what has been posted so far, it basically boils down to some not seeing the significance of the VIPs because they think it consists of "liberals" who do nothing but defend/protect other liberals. Now, I know that not to be the case, however, in order to quantify whether or not that accusation holds any water, there has to be some sort of vetting process to decipher why some think that way. Crepitus opened the query as to why those that align with conservatism are banned at a higher rate than those that align with liberalism, and in that process he established a baseline of those who were banned and for what reason. The topic drifted towards racism because that was the #1 qualifier of why those individuals were banned. That sets the precedence on addressing the validity of the claims made on whether or not there is bias in the VIP group as it was claimed to be. When someone made the statement that holding racist beliefs are protected, which they should be, then asking why those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be labeled as racist, should be an appropriate question to ask. That question does not "insinuate" anyone is racist, but rather clarifies that maybe those racist beliefs are not as tolerated as one would like them to be. Which is what the VIPs are tasked to do in regards to creating forum rules on racist posts.

Safety
08-31-2017, 11:18 PM
Furthermore, I see value in the VIPs as a whole, because on paper they are the ones that further discussion, have discretion on petty arguing, and basically attempt to set the decorum of how a debate is supposed to take place. Being human, of course sometimes people drift from their usual behavior, especially when a polarizing political event takes place, but that does not negate the overall temperament of the group. I have said before that it would be nice to have an equal representation of both ideologies on the team, but that would mean lowering the standards to allow those that do not have the temperament and candor to be inducted into the group. Obviously, if that were to occur, then it would be nothing more than a quota system that I know many here are against.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:18 PM
Well, going by what has been posted so far, it basically boils down to some not seeing the significance of the VIPs because they think it consists of "liberals" who do nothing but defend/protect other liberals. Now, I know that not to be the case, however, in order to quantify whether or not that accusation holds any water, there has to be some sort of vetting process to decipher why some think that way. @Crepitus (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1345) opened the query as to why those that align with conservatism are banned at a higher rate than those that align with liberalism, and in that process he established a baseline of those who were banned and for what reason. The topic drifted towards racism because that was the #1 qualifier of why those individuals were banned. That sets the precedence on addressing the validity of the claims made on whether or not there is bias in the VIP group as it was claimed to be. When someone made the statement that holding racist beliefs are protected, which they should be, then asking why those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be labeled as racist, should be an appropriate question to ask. That question does not "insinuate" anyone is racist, but rather clarifies that maybe those racist beliefs are not as tolerated as one would like them to be. Which is what the VIPs are tasked to do in regards to creating forum rules on racist posts.
It is the case.

Nobody defends conservative trolls when they're on the chopping block. Nobody.

But when a liberal troll is on the chopping block, the liberal VIPS rush to their defense.

It's pure partisanship.

And that is unavoidable given the nature of the VIP system.

They have a title, they have some power, they have secrecy, yet they have zero accountability to anyone.

Safety
08-31-2017, 11:20 PM
It is the case.

Nobody defends conservative trolls when they're on the chopping block. Nobody.

But when a liberal troll is on the chopping block, the liberal VIPS rush to their defense.

It's pure partisanship.

And that is unavoidable given the nature of the VIP system.

They have a title, they have some power, they have secrecy, yet they have zero accountability to anyone.

You accuse the VIPs of partisanship, by showing.....partisanship.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 11:20 PM
Groupthink.

That doesn't make it right. I am inclined to agree with Ethereal on this.

And what is "group think" but democracy in action?

resister
08-31-2017, 11:22 PM
And what is "group think" but democracy in action?
More like "sheepleness":rollseyes:

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:23 PM
Furthermore, I see value in the VIPs as a whole, because on paper they are the ones that further discussion, have discretion on petty arguing, and basically attempt to set the decorum of how a debate is supposed to take place. Being human, of course sometimes people drift from their usual behavior, especially when a polarizing political event takes place, but that does not negate the overall temperament of the group. I have said before that it would be nice to have an equal representation of both ideologies on the team, but that would mean lowering the standards to allow those that do not have the temperament and candor to be inducted into the group. Obviously, if that were to occur, then it would be nothing more than a quota system that I know many here are against.

How do VIPS further discussion anymore than any other members further discussion? Some VIPS don't even post that much. Finderskeepers, who I like a lot, hasn't been around in months, and she is still a VIP.

What does "have discretion on petty arguing" even mean? And how does it contribute positively to the forum?

Set the decorum? Again, what does that even mean? Do regular members also not contribute to decorum? Does this forum even have an objective definition of "decorum" by which to gauge the conduct of its members? If so, what is it and where can we find it?

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:23 PM
You accuse the VIPs of partisanship, by showing.....partisanship.
All I did was state facts. Not sure how that's partisan.

Ravens Fan
08-31-2017, 11:27 PM
Well, going by what has been posted so far, it basically boils down to some not seeing the significance of the VIPs because they think it consists of "liberals" who do nothing but defend/protect other liberals. Now, I know that not to be the case, however, in order to quantify whether or not that accusation holds any water, there has to be some sort of vetting process to decipher why some think that way. @Crepitus (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1345) opened the query as to why those that align with conservatism are banned at a higher rate than those that align with liberalism, and in that process he established a baseline of those who were banned and for what reason. The topic drifted towards racism because that was the #1 qualifier of why those individuals were banned. That sets the precedence on addressing the validity of the claims made on whether or not there is bias in the VIP group as it was claimed to be. When someone made the statement that holding racist beliefs are protected, which they should be, then asking why those that hold racist beliefs, don't like to be labeled as racist, should be an appropriate question to ask. That question does not "insinuate" anyone is racist, but rather clarifies that maybe those racist beliefs are not as tolerated as one would like them to be. Which is what the VIPs are tasked to do in regards to creating forum rules on racist posts.
@Safety TB'ed for off topic posts after several requests and a warning to stay on topic.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 11:39 PM
[tpfnotice Safety TB'ed for off topic posts after several requests and a warning to stay on topic.[/tpfnotice]

I would like to state publicly that I disagree with this ban, and that imho neither Safety 's nor my posts were off topic or accusatory of any members. They were in fact entirely pertinent to the discussion of vips and their function/usefulness here. While I am fairly indifferent to the continuation of the vips I have seen no evidence of favoritism or prejudice on their part.

I will take my TB for a rule 9 violation now.

Thank you and have a nice night.

Cletus
08-31-2017, 11:39 PM
And what is "group think" but democracy in action?

The two are not even similar.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:40 PM
I would like to state publicly that I disagree with this ban, and that imho neither @Safety (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1226) 's nor my posts were off topic or accusatory of any members. They were in fact entirely pertinent to the discussion of vips and their function/usefulness here. While I am fairly indifferent to the continuation of the vips I have seen no evidence of favoritism or prejudice on their part.

I will take my TB for a rule 9 violation now.

Thank you and have a nice night.

You and I were discussing the rules pertaining to racist speech, which is relevant to the VIP system since they help make the rules.

Safety was talking about something totally unrelated to that and kept at it.

Crepitus
08-31-2017, 11:43 PM
You and I were discussing the rules pertaining to racist speech, which is relevant to the VIP system since they help make the rules.

Safety was talking about something totally unrelated to that and kept at it.

Not in my opinion sir.

Good night.

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:45 PM
Not in my opinion sir.

Good night.

And to you, sir.

AZ Jim
08-31-2017, 11:48 PM
Well, on this matter of VIPS, let me check how I feel! 19778 Yep! I thought so...

resister
08-31-2017, 11:49 PM
I would like to state publicly that I disagree with this ban, and that imho neither @Safety (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1226) 's nor my posts were off topic or accusatory of any members. They were in fact entirely pertinent to the discussion of vips and their function/usefulness here. While I am fairly indifferent to the continuation of the vips I have seen no evidence of favoritism or prejudice on their part.

I will take my TB for a rule 9 violation now.

Thank you and have a nice night.
At least the thread can proceed on topic and not be derailed!

I fail to see the purpose of VIP, I am a member of other forums and have lurked on many, never seen such a thing!

Ethereal
08-31-2017, 11:51 PM
At least the thread can proceed on topic and not be derailed!

I fail to see the purpose of VIP, I am a member of other forums and have lurked on many, never seen such a thing!

Good point.

This is the only forum I've ever been on that had such a system.

Cletus
08-31-2017, 11:52 PM
It is also the only one I have ever seen that required mods to have a meeting and vote before taking action. It is the worst system I have ever seen.

Perianne
08-31-2017, 11:58 PM
Different is not always worse. At least the mods are asking our opinions about VIPs.

Cletus
09-01-2017, 12:02 AM
Different is not always worse. At least the mods are asking our opinions about VIPs.

I think it was the VIPS who were asking.

Ethereal
09-01-2017, 12:03 AM
Different is not always worse. At least the mods are asking our opinions about VIPs.
The VIPS are conspiring against you... it's a conspiracy.

:cool2:

resister
09-01-2017, 12:13 AM
The VIPS are conspiring against you... it's a conspiracy.

:cool2:
I was crazy once, they put me in a home. That is when the worms came out to play, Worms drive me crazy. I was crazy once, they put me in a home, that is when...:cool2:

Ravens Fan
09-01-2017, 12:15 AM
Come on guys... the topic.

resister
09-01-2017, 12:22 AM
Come on guys... the topic.
VIP based on a number of quality post? VIP revoked for infractions, warnings and TB's?

Ravens Fan
09-01-2017, 12:25 AM
VIP based on a number of quality post? VIP revoked for infractions, warnings and TB's?

Can you elaborate? Are you asking about what we have right now, or adding suggestions?


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resister
09-01-2017, 12:33 AM
Can you elaborate? Are you asking about what we have right now, or adding suggestions?


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A suggestion, nominate VIP"s directly based on forum activity and participation. Let the nominees stand on their own record.

Want my honest opinion? There it is!

resister
09-01-2017, 12:36 AM
A suggestion, nominate VIP"s directly based on forum activity and participation. Let the nominees stand on their own record.

Want my honest opinion? There it is!
Now obviously, their overall behavior should be considered!

Common
09-01-2017, 12:41 AM
Read this thread and you will readily see why we need moderators and not VIPS

Tahuyaman
09-01-2017, 12:50 AM
Read this thread and you will readily see why we need moderators and not VIPS
Even a town hall thread got derailed.

Common
09-01-2017, 12:53 AM
Even a town hall thread got derailed.
Didnt you expect that ?

resister
09-01-2017, 12:55 AM
Even a town hall thread got derailed.

A reflection of the world at large (same things have happened)

resister
09-01-2017, 12:56 AM
Read this thread and you will readily see why we need moderators and not VIPS
Either change it, or ditch it. IM_PEACH!!!!

Bethere
09-01-2017, 01:12 AM
Even a town hall thread got derailed.

You can't blame that on your mighty bethere!

resister
09-01-2017, 01:16 AM
You can't blame that on your mighty bethere!
Got any thing else to add? You know, about the topic?

You should make a thread about the "mighty" bethere. This one is about the VIP townhall!

Ravens Fan
09-01-2017, 01:21 AM
I would like to state publicly that I disagree with this ban, and that imho neither @Safety (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1226) 's nor my posts were off topic or accusatory of any members. They were in fact entirely pertinent to the discussion of vips and their function/usefulness here. While I am fairly indifferent to the continuation of the vips I have seen no evidence of favoritism or prejudice on their part.

I will take my TB for a rule 9 violation now.

Thank you and have a nice night.
@Crepitus TB'ed for violation of rule 9.

gamewell45
09-01-2017, 01:26 AM
The only thing I can think to add here is that having Town Hall meetings on a more frequent basis might be a good idea so people can air their questions, grievances and concerns in an open forum and hopefully not attack one another in the process. :)

resister
09-01-2017, 01:31 AM
The only thing I can think to add here is that having Town Hall meetings on a more frequent basis might be a good idea so people can air their questions, grievances and concerns in an open forum and hopefully not attack one another in the process. :)Every 3 weeks or one 24 hour period every 10 days?

gamewell45
09-01-2017, 01:40 AM
Every 3 weeks or one 24 hour period every 10 days?

You know, that is a very good question; Not sure about the frequency of the meetings; Perhaps every 3-4 weeks have an open forum for a 24 or 36 hour period? Or a certain amount of people could request one as felt necessary?

Ravens Fan
09-01-2017, 01:45 AM
You know, that is a very good question; Not sure about the frequency of the meetings; Perhaps every 3-4 weeks have an open forum for a 24 or 36 hour period? Or a certain amount of people could request one as felt necessary?

We have been spacing them about 2-3 months apart, but I personally wouldn't be against doing it more often, so long as they stay civil. I also like the idea of a group request, just unsure of how that would work.
But the idea will be discussed more after this wraps up.

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gamewell45
09-01-2017, 01:53 AM
We have been spacing them about 2-3 months apart, but I personally wouldn't be against doing it more often, so long as they stay civil. I also like the idea of a group request, just unsure of how that would work.


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I would suggest that a group of say, for example, 20 members fire off either a PM or a written request publicly within a certain time frame (to be determined) requesting the meeting and give a date in advance so all members would have adequate notice. Again, I'm just kicking ideas around; ideally some of the posters here will give some input as well.

Finally, I do believe for this to work, it's paramount that everyone conduct themselves in the proper mode of civil human behavior; it's okay to disagree but lets not make it personal since that discourages some posters from participating.

Just my two cents; now I'll let others make some suggestions as they may deem fit.

Ethereal
09-01-2017, 02:17 AM
The only thing I can think to add here is that having Town Hall meetings on a more frequent basis might be a good idea so people can air their questions, grievances and concerns in an open forum and hopefully not attack one another in the process. :)
I agree.

The regular membership should be given the opportunity to give their opinion on how the forum operates periodically.

stjames1_53
09-01-2017, 05:27 AM
This was your post.



This was my response to your post.



You opened the door, counselor, that makes it discussable. Furthermore, it addresses the subjectivity of the discussion as a whole, because if there are members here that think the VIPs are comprised of "liberal cliques", then the opportunity to expand the reasons why that mindset is present in the first place.

nope . Your buddy was the one that opened the door.
http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/87812-VIP-System-Town-Hall/page9
and you've kept it opened to derail this thread and make it all about race when in fact it has nothing to do with race.
You always make it about race. Even in this thread about VIP, you make it into your own personal crusade to call everyone around you a racist...........
You can't even stay on topic, regardless of what thread it is
Next time, read the thread title and try not to make it about your personal little war

Bethere
09-01-2017, 05:52 AM
I would suggest that a group of say, for example, 20 members fire off either a PM or a written request publicly within a certain time frame (to be determined) requesting the meeting and give a date in advance so all members would have adequate notice. Again, I'm just kicking ideas around; ideally some of the posters here will give some input as well.

Finally, I do believe for this to work, it's paramount that everyone conduct themselves in the proper mode of civil human behavior; it's okay to disagree but lets not make it personal since that discourages some posters from participating.

Just my two cents; now I'll let others make some suggestions as they may deem fit.

A public poll could be used like a discharge petition to force a town hall meeting. Designate a trigger threshold, like 20 votes--that's probably too high. I'll set up one in latest happenings now as an example of how it could be done.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/87839-Should-a-town-hall-meeting-be-held

Tahuyaman
09-01-2017, 10:41 AM
Didnt you expect that ?

I did. Does the forum's leadership group believe anything was accomplished here?

Ravens Fan
09-01-2017, 10:50 AM
I did. Does the forum's leadership group believe anything was accomplished here?

I do. I think overall, this has been a good discussion so far, with some constructive ideas given.


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Tahuyaman
09-01-2017, 11:04 AM
I do. I think overall, this has been a good discussion so far, with some constructive ideas given.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As far as I am concerned, the VIP issue is not something I have strong feeling about, but if people want more say in who is selected, it would be easy to accomplish that without making the process appear to be partisan.

Hal Jordan
09-02-2017, 10:14 PM
Are there any other thoughts or ideas?

resister
09-02-2017, 10:22 PM
Are there any other thoughts or ideas?
Eliminate it, it equals a cliuque!

Bethere
09-03-2017, 12:24 AM
Are there any other thoughts or ideas?

If the vip room is the only place where liberals have a voice, and it is, then it has a purpose.

Cletus
09-03-2017, 01:23 AM
If the vip room is the only place where liberals have a voice, and it is, then it has a purpose.

Has anyone kept you or Crepitus or Who or Wolf or any of the other forum Liberals from "having a voice"?

William
09-03-2017, 01:41 AM
If the vip room is the only place where liberals have a voice, and it is, then it has a purpose.

With respect, my friend, I understand what you are saying, and why you are saying it, but that is not, nor should it be, the purpose of the VIP room. It is, and should be, a place where VIPs can discuss and advise as to rule changes, etc. and bring problem areas to the attention of Admin and the mods. :smiley:

Bethere
09-03-2017, 02:24 AM
With respect, my friend, I understand what you are saying, and why you are saying it, but that is not, nor should it be, the purpose of the VIP room. It is, and should be, a place where VIPs can discuss and advise as to rule changes, etc. and bring problem areas to the attention of Admin and the mods. :smiley:

It's the wrong place to have this discussion. Hal already knows exactly what I am taking about via previous pms.

Suffice it to say that you of all people should know better. Recently, there was a concerted effort to chase you away from this forum. That didn't happen because we are all committed to good Christian felowship or to debating a wide variety of views.

It is gratifying for bethere to see you. I have faith in you.

William
09-03-2017, 02:43 AM
It's the wrong place to have this discussion. Hal already knows exactly what I am taking about via previous pms.

Suffice it to say that you of all people should know better. Recently, there was a concerted effort to chase you away from this forum. That didn't happen because we are all committed to good Christian felowship or a wide variety of views.

BTW. It is gratifying for bethere to see you. I have faith in you.

OK, sorry if I have butted in on a private conversation, and thanks for your confidence. :smiley:

And yes, I know of the efforts to get rid of me, which nearly succeeded, but Admin and my friends here - which include yourself - convinced me to stay.

All I was trying to do was to point out what the VIP room should be and what it is intended to be - no matter what some members, and some VIPs, think. I think the whole idea of VIPs is misunderstood by most of the membership.

Bethere
09-03-2017, 02:48 AM
OK, sorry if I have butted in on a private conversation, and thanks for your confidence. :smiley:

And yes, I know of the efforts to get rid of me, which nearly succeeded, but Admin and my friends here - which include yourself - convinced me to stay.

All I was trying to do was to point out what the VIP room should be and what it is intended to be - no matter what some members, and some VIPs, think. I think the whole idea of VIPs is misunderstood by most of the membership.

Point well taken.

Common
09-03-2017, 04:35 AM
Are there any other thoughts or ideas?
I posted actual thoughts and reasons earlier in this thread. Just reading this thread you can see why ruling by consensus wont work. There are too many opinions, persuasions, personality conflicts and of course the Political perspectives and along with all that comes the bickering


The VIP system was not an issue for a long time, its become an issue and you can all fill in your own reasons.


Having a VIP system creates a caste systm on the forum and a closed society, that chooses who can and cant be in the club amongst themselves, ridiculous. Since theyve started posting infractions there are posters on this forum who have never had an infraction and who could never be elected to VIP, the standards for VIP are what then? , obviously its not who obeys the rules or not, its who the VIPS like and who they dont, proof of that there are vips that have gotten infractions and are still VIPS.

Nothing runs right on a big group consensus, you get what you got here and on a smaller scale amongst the VIPS. There should be a few that members look to for leadership <mods> not a whole group in a private club. Obviously personalities come into play, interactions between vips and members on the main forum with different political views creates animosity, then they go behind closed doors and vote on that person, Ridiculous

If you are going to keep VIPS, they should be chosen by the admin and the moderators he chose, not amongst themselves making it a clique.

Personally I believe VIPS should be chosen by forum participation, being a regular poster for a period of time basically loyal to the forum. Its more a regular member status highlight of their names with vips having nothing to say how the forum is run and absolutely nothing to say on other members

Hal Jordan
09-03-2017, 11:10 PM
Okay, it seems that all thoughts regarding the VIP system have been given. We want to thank all of you for your input. The Mods and VIPs will take all of them into serious discussion. If there are any further thoughts, feel free to send them to me via PM. We will inform everyone of any changes coming forth. Again, thank you all for your input.