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DonGlock26
11-17-2012, 12:17 PM
http://youtu.be/jpD01pXsTAE

I think this is pretty well done. The collapse of powerful civilizations in the Bronze Age amazes me.


http://youtu.be/2yz0VxXIaIg


I'm getting this book for Christmas:

http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Bronze-Robert-Drews/dp/0691025916/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353172669&sr=8-2&keywords=bronze+age+collapse

The wife doesn't know that she bought it for me yet. ;)

shaarona
11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Pretty cool.............

Mister D
11-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Thanks. I'll check this out. The "Dark Age" fascinates me as well.

Peter1469
11-17-2012, 01:30 PM
very cool

Carygrant
11-17-2012, 02:43 PM
;)


It's great not to have your nonsense posts about the economy , Zimmerman , Mutt the Misfit and the Black revolution .
Keep your head own and you can win a Bronze ( Age) medal .

Chris
11-17-2012, 03:44 PM
It's great not to have your nonsense posts about the economy , Zimmerman , Mutt the Misfit and the Black revolution .
Keep your head own and you can win a Bronze ( Age) medal .

Carygrant, Warning: Other Discussions are for more serious discussion and stricter moderation. The rules apply but, on the positive side, we will also require that all posts make a contribution be it information, question or argumentation, and on the negative side we will not allow trolling, inflammatory remarks, personal attacks, or off-topic comments. See http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8250-Changes-to-The-Political-Forums. For this you have been warned repeatedly in the past.

Mister D
11-17-2012, 04:22 PM
This looks pretty good.

http://www.amazon.com/People-Sea-Philistines-Trude-Dothan/dp/0025322613/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353187111&sr=1-2&keywords=Sea+Peoples

Mister D
11-17-2012, 04:26 PM
Let us know how the book is, Don. I'm more inclined to view the marauders as a symptom rather than as the cause of the decline.

I think it's also important to point out that we call this a dark age primarily because we have no or few sources for the centuries following the collapse of 1200.

DonGlock26
11-17-2012, 07:32 PM
This looks pretty good.

http://www.amazon.com/People-Sea-Philistines-Trude-Dothan/dp/0025322613/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353187111&sr=1-2&keywords=Sea+Peoples

Yes, it does. Thanks for posting that.

DonGlock26
11-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Let us know how the book is, Don. I'm more inclined to view the marauders as a symptom rather than as the cause of the decline.

I think it's also important to point out that we call this a dark age primarily because we have no or few sources for the centuries following the collapse of 1200.

It was probably a Aegean-based migration caused by a natural disaster (volcano,earthquake storm, plus tsunamis) and/or invasion from the north (Dorians?). They were defeated by the Pharaoh and possibly transplanted to Canaan. The Archaic Greeks legends often had a Lebanese starting point. Perhaps, they had contact with the Philistines and considered them kin? Maybe some returned home to Greece?

Mister D
11-17-2012, 08:10 PM
It was probably a Aegean-based migration caused by a natural disaster (volcano,earthquake storm, plus tsunamis) and/or invasion from the north (Dorians?). They were defeated by the Pharaoh and possibly transplanted to Canaan. The Archaic Greeks legends often had a Lebanese starting point. Perhaps, they had contact with the Philistines and considered them kin? Maybe some returned home to Greece?

That the Philistines had a European origin seems clear now.

DonGlock26
11-18-2012, 11:19 AM
That the Philistines had a European origin seems clear now.

Up to now, language groups were among the best ways to track human migration in ancient times. But, now, DNA is becoming very useful. It is being used to solve the puzzle of the origin of the Etruscans. I suspect that it will be used in the future to track Bronze Age and early Iron Age movements of peoples, if it isn't already. Imagine, being able to find a Sea People battlefield with the possibility of DNA retrieval.

Chris
11-18-2012, 11:27 AM
DNA, like language, can be messy, as shows Neanderthals, Humans Interbred—First Solid DNA Evidence (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/). --If off topic, ignore.

corrocamino
12-02-2012, 07:45 AM
According to at least one distinguished archaeologist whom I have read (a book on ancient Anatolia), this book is a sterling piece of research into the identities of the multiplicity of peoples subsumed under "Sea Peoples" in contemporary Egyptian inscriptions (I have not read this book):

http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Peoples-Warriors-Mediterranean-1250-1150/dp/0500273871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354450308&sr=1-1&keywords=sea+peoples (http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Peoples-Warriors-Mediterranean-1250-1150/dp/0500273871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354450308&sr=1-1&keywords=sea+peoples)

It seems that there is to date no consensus about whether the advent of the Dorians in mainland Greece was a "demic infusion" or an "invasion". Evidently some of the mass-movements of the various "Sea Peoples" were indeed mass-migrations -- wife and family, bag and baggage.

My own perception of the "Dark Age" -- based on admittedly haphazard, rather unsystematic reading -- is that it primarily is "dark" because the Mycenaean Linear B writing habit was extinguished, as were the prolific Hittite cuneiform tablet records. (Some authorities attribute the end of the Hittites at Hattusha not to "Sea Peoples", but to the chronic nemesis of the Hittites, the "Kaska people" of the Pontic mountains; however, the "Sea Peoples" may well have destroyed the trade/supply lines of the Hittites).

Widespread destruction of cities at the end of the Bronze Age and derailment of literacy notwithstanding, there is rather abundant evidence of trade, wealth accumulation (per lavish grave goods), and art during the Dark Age. The Geometric pottery, for example, although devoid of naturalistic elements, is actually quite exquisite in many examples.

In southeastern Anatolia and northern Syria, the Hittite empire was rather quickly succeeded by a hybrid and diverse "neo-Hittite" culture, or cultures, some aspects of which were inscribed/written in Luwian hieroglyphics and cuneiform.

The Bronze Age collapse is variously dated to ca. 1,200-1,080 BC. I wonder if it was a culmination of a larger, episodic phenomenon: consider that the (re?)establishment of the Hittites at previously burned-out Hattusha happened around 1,650 BC, closely contemporary with the Second Intermediate Period in Egypt and the Hyksos incursion into the Nile Delta, and with the more or less concurrent end-days of the Indus Civilization and origins of the Vedic traditions.

To my mind, it all seems to resolve fundamentally as the knock-on effects of population growth exceeding the local carrying capacity in certain areas, forcing opportunistic raiding, migration/expansion/invasion. (The Viking raiding/colonizing habit, for comparison, is attributed to the obvious consequences of traditional primogeniture in inheritance among farmers and expanding population in a finite space.) Secondary factors complicate the picture, and the dearth of written records for long intervals will forever obscure our view. However, the vagaries of further archaeological discoveries may shine a fascinating light here and there. Meanwhile, the joy of speculation!

Peter1469
12-02-2012, 09:17 AM
Great post.


Secondary factors complicate the picture, and the dearth of written records for long intervals will forever obscure our view.

And the loss of so many ancient written records.

corrocamino
12-02-2012, 09:33 AM
The most abhorrent loss of ancient records is the wanton destruction by the imperial Spanish proselytizers of Mayan codices written on bark. All we have left of Mayan history, save only a few examples of the revelatory codices, are the mute stones of the "lost cities", and the partly deciphered glyphic writings devoted almost exclusively to elite ritual (a la Egyptian Book of the Dead). What a loss!

[On this note, I might happily recommend, "Breaking the Maya Code", by distinguished archaeologist Michael D. Coe -- fascinating not only from the standpoint of learning something of what the glyphic inscriptions say, but also because of the accounts of very diverse and confluential lives, full of fortuity, that have over a very long time contributed to the decipherments now available. Consider, for example, that Mark Twain's newspaper editor in Nevada (from his "Roughing It" days) was a major player! Also, the accounts of explorations of American diplomat John Lloyd Stephens and his accomplished artist/illustrator companion Frederick Catherwood in the Mayan world, available as reprint in several volumes. Stephens acutally purchased the magnificent ruins at Copan! The kind of discovery I used to fantasize about as a schoolboy!]

Mister D
12-02-2012, 01:47 PM
According to at least one distinguished archaeologist whom I have read (a book on ancient Anatolia), this book is a sterling piece of research into the identities of the multiplicity of peoples subsumed under "Sea Peoples" in contemporary Egyptian inscriptions (I have not read this book):

http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Peoples-Warriors-Mediterranean-1250-1150/dp/0500273871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354450308&sr=1-1&keywords=sea+peoples (http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Peoples-Warriors-Mediterranean-1250-1150/dp/0500273871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354450308&sr=1-1&keywords=sea+peoples)

It seems that there is to date no consensus about whether the advent of the Dorians in mainland Greece was a "demic infusion" or an "invasion". Evidently some of the mass-movements of the various "Sea Peoples" were indeed mass-migrations -- wife and family, bag and baggage.

My own perception of the "Dark Age" -- based on admittedly haphazard, rather unsystematic reading -- is that it primarily is "dark" because the Mycenaean Linear B writing habit was extinguished, as were the prolific Hittite cuneiform tablet records. (Some authorities attribute the end of the Hittites at Hattusha not to "Sea Peoples", but to the chronic nemesis of the Hittites, the "Kaska people" of the Pontic mountains; however, the "Sea Peoples" may well have destroyed the trade/supply lines of the Hittites).

Widespread destruction of cities at the end of the Bronze Age and derailment of literacy notwithstanding, there is rather abundant evidence of trade, wealth accumulation (per lavish grave goods), and art during the Dark Age. The Geometric pottery, for example, although devoid of naturalistic elements, is actually quite exquisite in many examples.

In southeastern Anatolia and northern Syria, the Hittite empire was rather quickly succeeded by a hybrid and diverse "neo-Hittite" culture, or cultures, some aspects of which were inscribed/written in Luwian hieroglyphics and cuneiform.

The Bronze Age collapse is variously dated to ca. 1,200-1,080 BC. I wonder if it was a culmination of a larger, episodic phenomenon: consider that the (re?)establishment of the Hittites at previously burned-out Hattusha happened around 1,650 BC, closely contemporary with the Second Intermediate Period in Egypt and the Hyksos incursion into the Nile Delta, and with the more or less concurrent end-days of the Indus Civilization and origins of the Vedic traditions.

To my mind, it all seems to resolve fundamentally as the knock-on effects of population growth exceeding the local carrying capacity in certain areas, forcing opportunistic raiding, migration/expansion/invasion. (The Viking raiding/colonizing habit, for comparison, is attributed to the obvious consequences of traditional primogeniture in inheritance among farmers and expanding population in a finite space.) Secondary factors complicate the picture, and the dearth of written records for long intervals will forever obscure our view. However, the vagaries of further archaeological discoveries may shine a fascinating light here and there. Meanwhile, the joy of speculation!

I think your perception is correct. The European Dark Ages are a early modern fiction while the dark age in question is called one primarily due to a dearth of source material.