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Chris
09-22-2017, 09:54 AM
THE CORRECT WAY TO BE A CANNIBAL: Eat a rich or powerful person (https://theoutline.com/post/2298/the-correct-way-to-be-a-cannibal), a review of Hans Staden's 1557 True Story and Description of a Country of Wild, Naked, Grim, Man-eating People in the New World


If you are ever captured in the jungle by a group of men and women who taunt you, insisting they will soon devour your flesh, there are a few tricks you can use to avoid this fate. First, you can pretend to be French. It will probably help if you wail in agony, like a baby, leading them to wonder if it might be better not to consume your pathetic body. A horrible sickness may lead them to the same conclusion, and if you can stop eating for long enough to get skinny, they may likewise lose their appetite. Use this extra time to try pretend that your God is angry and causing them misfortune, and that maybe you can cure diseases with your own powers. Most importantly, lie, lie, lie, and lie, all while learning the local language and customs, trying to make a deal with whomever you can.

This, at least, is one lesson you can draw from Hans Staden's True Story and Description of a Country of Wild, Naked, Grim, Man-eating People in the New World, America (1557, Andreas Kolbe Publishing, with woodcuts), one of the foundational texts of South American identity.

According to the book, Staden, a German soldier, was captured by members of the Tupinambá tribe in what is now Brazil, and lived with them for years, wily putting all of these tactics to use, before managing to wrangle an escape route back to Europe, where he landed a book deal. He describes in brutal detail the ritualistic executions of indigenous peoples and white Christians alike, and the magical ceremonies in which their flesh was torn apart and devoured by drunken natives. One old woman sucks raw brains out of a man's skull, just moments after he is killed. Staden, our hero, makes complicated alliances and double-crosses his allies, assumes false identities and then discards them, and concocts elaborate performances to trick the chief who owns him. It's a riveting tale.

Mister D
09-22-2017, 10:11 AM
I read the account of Jean de Lery when I was in college. He was a French Calvinist missionary that became familiar with the Tupi of what is now Brazil. He also mentions cannibalism. His account was published in 1578.

resister
09-22-2017, 10:19 AM
Yummy! Longpig!
https://youtu.be/3sn55LVnFbQ

Mini Me
04-27-2018, 10:52 AM
THE CORRECT WAY TO BE A CANNIBAL: Eat a rich or powerful person (https://theoutline.com/post/2298/the-correct-way-to-be-a-cannibal), a review of Hans Staden's 1557 True Story and Description of a Country of Wild, Naked, Grim, Man-eating People in the New World
This sounds like an apt description of the GOP and Drumph regime! They eat their own, ya know!

Cletus
04-27-2018, 11:26 AM
One old woman sucks raw brains out of a man's skull, just moments after he is killed.


You should write a book telling people how you survived having your brain sucked out without being killed.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Can you corroborate any of this in any reputable North American ethnographic records?

Apparently, where this has occurred in pre-Columbian South America, the driving force was starvation, not unlike the Donner Party in the Golden State in the 1800's, and others.
https://newrepublic.com/article/118252/cannibalism-and-overpopulation-how-amazon-tribe-ate-their-dead

Mister D
05-09-2018, 11:25 AM
Can you corroborate any of this in any reputable North American ethnographic records?

Apparently, where this has occurred in pre-Columbian South America, the driving force was starvation, not unlike the Donner Party in the Golden State in the 1800's, and others.
https://newrepublic.com/article/118252/cannibalism-and-overpopulation-how-amazon-tribe-ate-their-dead
Not sure why you're asking. Brazil is in South America.

Cannibalism in Mesoamerica at least is well documented both historically and archaeologically.

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/analysis-of-human-bones-shows-aztecs.html#.UtsLvRB9KUk#cpIAo4qx6QYd3TiE.97

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/23/news/adfg-sacrifice23

Lummy
05-09-2018, 11:48 AM
Not sure why you're asking. Brazil is in South America.

Cannibalism in Mesoamerica at least is well documented both historically and archaeologically.

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/analysis-of-human-bones-shows-aztecs.html#.UtsLvRB9KUk#cpIAo4qx6QYd3TiE.97

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/23/news/adfg-sacrifice23
I'm asking because injuns is injuns is where you find them, and I'm not familar with any reliable accounts of pre-Columbian or precontact Native American cannibalism.

I really haven't even read anything about Native cannibalism in extreme circumstances, as has been recorded for mankind generally, either, though it wouldn't surprise me if there were instances.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 11:51 AM
I have thought that cannibalism in the New World was very rare except in the face of starvation.

Chris
05-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Europeans indulged in cannibalism until the 1900s, two new books claim (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html#ixzz5F1h1Xdzl) chronicles cannibalism in Europe.

Cannibalism in the New World, according to Why Cannibals Were on Every 16th-Century Map of the New World (https://hyperallergic.com/249898/why-cannibals-were-on-every-16th-century-map-of-the-new-world/), was largely attributed to natives.

https://i.snag.gy/ypWvxN.jpg

Lummy
05-09-2018, 12:53 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Aztecs. Ritual sacrifice was practiced, as they themselves recorded. But even in your article, what actually took place in those Mezo American cultures is disputed.

Consider Spanish accounts of cannibalism near and around the Caribbean, as per your maps.

And consider cannibalism in Africa, which has been ongoing for millenia and continues to this day, a fact in which some Africans take great pride. To make a long argument short, the Spanish brought African slaves with them to the New World. Some of those slaves escaped and sought refuge among Native Americans.

Ba- da -boom. I think that's when you begin to read accounts of cannibalism by the supposed native population.

As for the OP, if that reading is authentic, and the incidental map illustrations are authentic, I would suggest that it was a lie perpetrated mainly by Christian leaders, especially by The Church, (but not by the Faith) to incite new comers and settlers to slaughter the Natives wherever they came across them in order to make way for Christianity, especially the power of its political organizations.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:06 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Aztecs. Ritual sacrifice was practiced, as they themselves recorded. But even in your article, what actually took place in those Mezo American cultures is disputed.

Consider Spanish accounts of cannibalism near and around the Caribbean, as per your maps.

And consider cannibalism in Africa, which has been ongoing for millenia and continues to this day, a fact in which some Africans take great pride. To make a long argument short, the Spanish brought African slaves with them to the New World. Some of those slaves escaped and sought refuge among Native Americans.

Ba- da -boom. I think that's when you begin to read accounts of cannibalism by the supposed native population.

As for the OP, if that reading is authentic, and the incidental map illustrations are authentic, I would suggest that it was a lie perpetrated mainly by Christian leaders, especially by The Church, (but not by the Faith) to incite new comers and settlers to slaughter the Natives wherever they came across them in order to make way for Christianity, especially the power of its political organizations.
Cannibalism was practiced too. Only the extent and purpose is disputed.

What exactly am I to consider about any of this?

Um...no. In any case, cannibalism among native peoples is well attested and supported by archaeological evidence. We know it happened. We know it was ritualistic (i.e not the result of starvation). We see it in the southwest of what is now the US too, BTW. It seems the Anasazi had a hankering for forbidden morsels but that may have been impacted by changing climate and famine.

Well over 90% of New World population decline was the result of disease. I don't think your evaluation is particularly plausible.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:11 PM
Also, both Staden and Lery were Protestants.

DGUtley
05-09-2018, 02:15 PM
THE CORRECT WAY TO BE A CANNIBAL: Eat a rich or powerful person (https://theoutline.com/post/2298/the-correct-way-to-be-a-cannibal), a review of Hans Staden's 1557 True Story and Description of a Country of Wild, Naked, Grim, Man-eating People in the New World

I pulled this book from the library after you posted this last fall. Tough read.

jimmyz
05-09-2018, 02:15 PM
Isn't the cooking technique BBQ directly related to Barbacoa (sp?) used by indigenous Central, South Americans and Caribbean islanders back then? IIRC I saw woodcut prints depicting it. BBQing slaughtered human that is.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:16 PM
That reminds me. There was (note tense) also a lot of skepticism regarding Roman accounts of Celtic cannibalism but that too has now been laid to rest. Archaeological evidence shows that ritual cannibalism occurred in Celtic Britain.

jimmyz
05-09-2018, 02:24 PM
Like this

https://www.historytoday.com/sites/default/files/cannibals.jpg

Chris
05-09-2018, 02:27 PM
Isn't the cooking technique BBQ directly related to Barbacoa (sp?) used by indigenous Central, South Americans and Caribbean islanders back then? IIRC I saw woodcut prints depicting it. BBQing slaughtered human that is.

As depicted in "A Tupinamban Cannibal Feast" by Theodor De Bry from 1592:

https://i.snag.gy/wP96Jk.jpg

Chris
05-09-2018, 02:28 PM
Like this

https://www.historytoday.com/sites/default/files/cannibals.jpg

Yes, like that. :P


Also, in finding that I came across some European mixing of barbacoa (barbeque) with barbarian.

jimmyz
05-09-2018, 02:32 PM
Yes, like that. :P


Also, in finding that I came across some European mixing of barbacoa (barbeque) with barbarian.

It is recorded that human hands were considered a delicacy among cannibals. I'd like to think on their menu it read Human Fingers ten to an order in mild, medium and hot.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 02:40 PM
What exactly am I to consider about any of this?

What you will, I guess.

Um...no. In any case, cannibalism among native peoples is well attested and supported by archaeological evidence. We know it happened. We know it was ritualistic (i.e not the result of starvation).

No, we do not. Post your sources.


We see it in the southwest of what is now the US too, BTW. It seems the Anasazi had a hankering for forbidden morsels but that may have been impacted by changing climate and famine.

Source?


Well over 90% of New World population decline was the result of disease. I don't think your evaluation is particularly plausible.

Didn't say the decline of Native Americans was not the result of disease. It certainly was the result of disease, smallpox mainly, introduced to them by the military and/or settlers. But all this is elementary school education.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 02:42 PM
Give me all your sources that state pre-Columbian cannibalism was practiced ritualistically or was ever practiced at all north of what is now Central America/Mexico.

jimmyz
05-09-2018, 02:48 PM
Give me all your sources that state pre-Columbian cannibalism was practiced ritualistically or was ever practiced at all north of what is now Central America/Mexico.

Just one of many

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/07/us/new-data-suggests-some-cannibalism-by-ancient-indians.html

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:53 PM
What you will, I guess.


No, we do not. Post your sources.



Source?



Didn't say the decline of Native Americans was not the result of disease. It certainly was the result of disease, smallpox mainly, introduced to them by the military and/or settlers. But all this is elementary school education.
So you don't know either? OK.

Yes we do and I already did. Just two examples of course.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/06/0601_wireanasazi.html

Anyone with an elementary school education would know that the natives weren't "slaughtered". :rollseyes:

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:57 PM
Anasazi turds reveal all...

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2000/09/anasazi-ate-their-enemies

To uncover whether the butchered humans made it into someone's dinner, a team led by biochemist Richard Marlar of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver looked for traces of myoglobin, an oxygen-transporting molecule that occurs in skeletal and heart muscles but not in the gut. They developed an assay that distinguishes between human myoglobin and that of nine food animals such as bison and rabbits. The assay found human myoglobin in the coprolite, but no traces of it in any of 25 control human fecal samples. The authors report finding more human myoglobin on shards of a cooking pot, they report in the 7 September issue of Nature.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2000/09/anasazi-ate-their-enemies

Mister D
05-09-2018, 02:58 PM
The Tell Tale Turd...:grin:

Chris
05-09-2018, 03:04 PM
The Tell Tale Turd...:grin:

Incriminating crap, er, coprolite.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 03:51 PM
Just one of many

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/07/us/new-data-suggests-some-cannibalism-by-ancient-indians.html
Didn't read it, as it says at the outset that all it is doing is stirring up the pot. Reigniting a controversy does not prove anything.

jimmyz
05-09-2018, 03:53 PM
Didn't read it, as it says at the outset that all it is doing is stirring up the pot. Reigniting a controversy does not prove anything.

How about post# 25?

Lummy
05-09-2018, 03:54 PM
Anasazi turds reveal all...

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2000/09/anasazi-ate-their-enemies

To uncover whether the butchered humans made it into someone's dinner, a team led by biochemist Richard Marlar of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver looked for traces of myoglobin, an oxygen-transporting molecule that occurs in skeletal and heart muscles but not in the gut. They developed an assay that distinguishes between human myoglobin and that of nine food animals such as bison and rabbits. The assay found human myoglobin in the coprolite, but no traces of it in any of 25 control human fecal samples. The authors report finding more human myoglobin on shards of a cooking pot, they report in the 7 September issue of Nature.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2000/09/anasazi-ate-their-enemies
No, actually they do not reveal much of anything. What they seem to do is fire up imaginations.

It's fairly common for combatants in war to eat the hearts of their vanquished enemies. That has occurred into and including the Vietnam war and probably the various ME misadventures. That is to say, you have to rule that out -- you have to rule out this sort of behavior that is definitely not typical of a population. Better yet, bring on more definitive corroborating evidence that cannibalism was a common practice of the Anasazi.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 03:54 PM
Didn't read it, as it says at the outset that all it is doing is stirring up the pot. Reigniting a controversy does not prove anything.
That's not what it says.

Scientists have found what they say is the first direct evidence of cannibalism among prehistoric Indians in the American Southwest, belying the image of these people as steadfastly peaceful farmers.
The finding may well reignite a long-smoldering controversy over whether ancestral Indians ever made it a practice to eat human flesh, a conclusion deeply resented by their descendants.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 03:59 PM
No, actually they do not reveal much of anything. What they seem to do is fire up imaginations.

It's fairly common for combatants in war to eat the hearts of their vanquished enemies. That has occurred into and including the Vietnam war and probably the various ME misadventures. That is to say, you have to rule that out -- you have to rule out this sort of behavior that is definitely not typical of a population. Better yet, bring on more definitive corroborating evidence that cannibalism was a common practice of the Anasazi.

Source?
Yeah, I heard the Pentagon was saving millions by just having our troops eat Arab body parts. ROFL

Lummy
05-09-2018, 05:42 PM
Source?
Yeah, I heard the Pentagon was saving millions by just having our troops eat Arab body parts. ROFL
It's certainly within context of the unique morality of war that combatants could and would do this.

Here are a couple of sources:
https://www.historytoday.com/richard-sugg/eating-your-enemy
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japanese-troops-ate-flesh-of-enemies-and-civilians-1539816.html

Mister D
05-09-2018, 05:56 PM
It's certainly within context of the unique morality of war that combatants could and would do this.

Here are a couple of sources:
https://www.historytoday.com/richard-sugg/eating-your-enemy
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japanese-troops-ate-flesh-of-enemies-and-civilians-1539816.html

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Anyway...

From your first article:


How does the cannibalism described by McCall in Iraq compare with the man-eating of tribal societies? Most US citizens would distance themselves from such behaviour, whereas the cannibalism of the Tupinamba, the Iroquois and the Fiji islanders was accepted by all members of those societies, even by its victims.

Ba Bang! lol

In any case, the Iraq story seems bogus. OTOH, the many observations of Indian life are (further) supported by hard evidence. Also, that cannibalism was common in war is not contested. The Native Americans seemed rather fond of the practice.

Chris
05-09-2018, 06:02 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Anyway...

From your first article:



Ba Bang! lol

In any case, the Iraq story seems bogus. OTOH, the many observations of Indian life are (further) supported by hard evidence. Also, that cannibalism was common in war is not contested. The Native Americans seemed rather fond of the practice.


Fond, indeed, Hans Staden in his book relates how delicious: " that the Tupinambá were cannibals, gave vivid eyewitness accounts of the killing, preparing and eating of war captives. According to one anecdote, the Indians at one point gave him a delicious soup; after finishing his dinner, he found in the bottom of the cauldron some small skulls, which he later found out to be those of the boys in his choir." @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Staden#Cannibalism

But even if he was making it up there's too much scientific evidence support cannibalism in the New World to deny it.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:08 PM
Fond, indeed, Hans Staden in his book relates how delicious: " that the Tupinambá were cannibals, gave vivid eyewitness accounts of the killing, preparing and eating of war captives. According to one anecdote, the Indians at one point gave him a delicious soup; after finishing his dinner, he found in the bottom of the cauldron some small skulls, which he later found out to be those of the boys in his choir." @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Staden#Cannibalism

But even if he was making it up there's too much scientific evidence support cannibalism in the New World to deny it.

Damn that's chilling.
Exactly.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:13 PM
IBa Bang! lol

I didn't say it was a good source, just supportive.

Native Americans simply were not cannibals, at least as a rule, and had no reason to be, and until you can show some evidence of the accusation, they remain innocent outside the treachery of The Church and Christian power, approximately where Adam once stood.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:18 PM
Fond, indeed, Hans Staden in his book relates how delicious: " that the Tupinambá were cannibals, gave vivid eyewitness accounts of the killing, preparing and eating of war captives. According to one anecdote, the Indians at one point gave him a delicious soup; after finishing his dinner, he found in the bottom of the cauldron some small skulls, which he later found out to be those of the boys in his choir." @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Staden#Cannibalism
:yap:

A child's skull is not small. A spider monkey's skull is small.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:31 PM
I didn't say it was a good source, just supportive.

Supportive of what? Indians eating their captives? That's sort of our topic. I agree. It does support that contention.





Native Americans simply were not cannibals, at least as a rule, and had no reason to be, and until you can show some evidence of the accusation, they remain innocent outside the treachery of The Church and Christian power, approximately where Adam once stood.
What in the fuck?

Anyway...as far as cannibalism is concerned that Indians "had no reason" to be cannibals is precisely the point! It was very common ritualistic behavior. It is well attested and supported by hard scientific evidence. They weren't eating human flesh because they were starving unlike the Donner Party.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:32 PM
:yap:

A child's skull is not small. A spider monkey's skull is small.
A child's skull is typically and noticeably smaller than an adult's. Was this meant to be a serious response?

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:33 PM
A child's skull would be described as child size. A monkey's skull would be described as small.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:38 PM
What in the $#@!?
It is not a good article, I agree.

I defy you to produce good evidence that it was ritualistic behavior because there isn't any.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:38 PM
A child's skull would be described as child size. A monkey's skull would be described as small.
Maybe, but it would be perfectly natural and normal for someone to describe a child's skull as small.

Chris
05-09-2018, 06:39 PM
:yap:

A child's skull is not small. A spider monkey's skull is small.

Staden's account can be questioned and is. No one's corroborated it.

But there's other evidence a-plenty for cannibalism in the new world.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:41 PM
It is not a good article, I agree.

I defy you to produce good evidence that it was ritualistic behavior because there isn't any.
I've already produced plenty. The ball is in your court, chief. :wink:

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:43 PM
Staden's account can be questioned and is. No one's corroborated it.

But there's other evidence a-plenty for cannibalism in the new world.

And some in the Old. The same skepticism was shown toward Roman accounts of Celtic practices but we now know the Romans were simply relating what they observed.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:46 PM
Mind you, I have no doubt that lurid 16th Century woodcuts, for example, are...well lurid. That said, there was never any good reason to dismiss those eyewitness accounts out of hand and virtually no rational reason now in light of the evidence.

Chris
05-09-2018, 06:48 PM
And some in the Old. The same skepticism was shown toward Roman accounts of Celtic practices but we now know the Romans were simply relating what they observed.

I read somewhere as late as the early 1900s cannibalism was practiced in Europe. I forget the details.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:51 PM
I read somewhere as late as the early 1900s cannibalism was practiced in Europe. I forget the details.
I've never heard that but maybe there was some esoteric cult. That wouldn't surprise me.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:55 PM
I've already produced plenty. The ball is in your court, chief. :wink:
You've produced pop-science for the subway ride home is what you've produced.

Mister D
05-09-2018, 06:57 PM
You've produced pop-science for the subway ride home is what you've produced.
lol Keep the faith.

Lummy
05-09-2018, 06:58 PM
I've never heard that but maybe there was some esoteric cult. That wouldn't surprise me.
Here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/

It is not wise to argue any of this. Cannibals aplenty are still eating human flesh in Africa and loving every bite ... and so forth and so on ...

Mister D
05-09-2018, 07:11 PM
Here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/

It is not wise to argue any of this. Cannibals aplenty are still eating human flesh in Africa and loving every bite ... and so forth and so on ...
Not wise to argue any of what? What are you talking about? lol

Chris
05-09-2018, 07:20 PM
I've never heard that but maybe there was some esoteric cult. That wouldn't surprise me.

Here's one source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html

Seems to be a "refined" version of cannibalism.

Lummy
05-11-2018, 09:17 AM
I've already produced plenty. The ball is in your court, chief. :wink:
Mmm ... And I'm Injun, says the professor. :laughing7:

Mini Me
07-06-2018, 11:03 PM
Source?
Yeah, I heard the Pentagon was saving millions by just having our troops eat Arab body parts. ROFL

Ah, yes! Its the fingers of the left hand that are the tastiest!