Homosexuality: Nature vs. Nurture Poll

[Adelaide]

This topic has come up in previous threads I have participated on and I am curious where everyone stands on the issue: Is homosexuality (or bisexuality) something that an individual is born to, or is it something caused by environmental/social factors? Or both?

What is the reasoning for your decision or belief?

[Carygrant]

Couldn't care less frankly .
Overall they are a huge asset to a community and a society and I am far more worried about "Guns and God " Hilly Billy people in America than I am about ordinary people who make different loving and fucking choices .
Are Hilly Billy people the result of genetic mutation or does the American way of eating and drinking help produce these misfits ?

[Kizzume]

I think it's both. I think some people are born with a predisposition and their environment plays the rest of the role. I know for myself, I did not make any sort of conscious choice to be gay and I've never met or heard of another gay person saying that it WAS a conscious choice--but maybe there are some rare, rare few who did choose it consciously, who knows--but I know in the case of myself and a number of other gay men (certainly not every gay man I know), there were either a lack of a father or the father was abusive, and church was very important at early ages. For myself I somewhat blame the church I went to, which literally taught in Sunday school that the desire to look at naked women is sinful, and I always wanted to do the right thing. But that's not everyone's story, but still, I think it's both the environment and genetics.

[oceanloverOH]

I echo Kizzume's response. I don't believe environmental/social factors alone could cause a person to commit to a lifestyle that can possibly result in experiencing prejudice, oppression, ostracism and unfortunately, sometimes even emotional/physical violence from those who disagree. I too think there is a genetic predisposition to what is natural and comfortable for each person, and environmental/social factors come into play as the person matures.

[Mister D]

Couldn't care less frankly .
Overall they are a huge asset to a community and a society and I am far more worried about "Guns and God " Hilly Billy people in America than I am about ordinary people who make different loving and fucking choices .
Are Hilly Billy people the result of genetic mutation or does the American way of eating and drinking help produce these misfits ?

Why are gays a "huge asset to a community and a society"?

[Chris]

Couldn't care less frankly .
Overall they are a huge asset to a community and a society and I am far more worried about "Guns and God " Hilly Billy people in America than I am about ordinary people who make different loving and fucking choices .
Are Hilly Billy people the result of genetic mutation or does the American way of eating and drinking help produce these misfits ?

Thread banned.

[Chris]

Science generally agrees it's a combination of nature and nurture.


The American Academy of Pediatrics (2004) has stated that "sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences." The amount that each influence plays is highly debated. One study on Swedish twins suggested that there was a moderate, primarily genetic, familial effect, and moderate to large effects of the non-shared environment (social and biological) on same-sex sexual behaviour.

The American Psychological Association (2007) has stated that: "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people." It also stated that for most people, sexual orientation is determined at an early age.

The American Psychiatric Association (2000) has stated that, "...to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological aetiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse."

More @ Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture? (http://www.integratedsociopsychology.net/homosexuality-nature_or_nurture.html)

[truthmatters]

If you think a hetro human can be turned gay then you think YOU could be turned gay.

There is NOTHING in this world you could do to me to make me want pussy.


I know this way down in my soul.


that is why I would NEVER seek to claim a gay person should try to want something other than they are already programmed for

[hanger4]

I don't know one way or the other, I'll leave that up to the experts in the respective fields of science.


I do believe if it's conclusively found to be genetic then the religious right/right to lifers and homosexuals will become strange bed-fellows in the fight to ban abortions.

[Chris]

If you think a hetro human can be turned gay then you think YOU could be turned gay.

There is NOTHING in this world you could do to me to make me want pussy.


I know this way down in my soul.


that is why I would NEVER seek to claim a gay person should try to want something other than they are already programmed for


If you think a hetro human can be turned gay then you think YOU could be turned gay.

Can you cite the participant in this discussion who said anything like that? Most seem to be saying that you can be born with a predisposition, which can exxpress itself or not depending on environment.

[truthmatters]

I propose the people who they think are CHANGED by enviroment were Bi people who were made Gay by some event or series of events.

[Chris]

I propose the people who they think are CHANGED by enviroment were Bi people who were made Gay by some event or series of events.

OK, so no one said what you initially claimed.

Another question, do you understand the difference between genotype and phenotype? Do you understand the phrase genetic disposition?

[truthmatters]

are you claiming someone can not be genetically predisposed to being Bi?

[hanger4]

are you claiming someone can not be genetically predisposed to being Bi?

I do believe you just answered Chris' question.

A simple no would have sufficed.

[Chris]

are you claiming someone can not be genetically predisposed to being Bi?

No, that is actually what I am saying, and so are others in this thread. So what exactly are you saying? Do you understand what genetic disposition means? Do you understand genotype and phenotype and how that relates here? That even with a genetic disposition it may or may not be expressed depending on environmental factors?

[truthmatters]

yes society does force some homosexuals to feign being hetro.

It makes for some pretty miserable human beings

[oceanloverOH]

No, that is actually what I am saying, and so are others in this thread. So what exactly are you saying? Do you understand what genetic disposition means? Do you understand genotype and phenotype and how that relates here? That even with a genetic disposition it may or may not be expressed depending on environmental factors?

Give it up, Chris. :deadhorse:

[roadmaster]

I have never met a guy that told me in confidence he was born gay. Many factors come to play. Some are abused as children, some went to juvy and was raped by other boys. Bad relationships with women and the list goes on. But these are only excuses, the same reason why some men cheat on their wife. Lust of the flesh, the thrill of having something different. Married men will do this because they see it as a rush. People ask why would they chose to be gay. They are fulfilling their wants. People that are not gay won't understand them but if you cross the line it is dangerous. I have talked to many in my lifetime some were never abused but started out with toys they said they were buying for their wife or girlfriend but it ended up for them. It's like asking a man why they cheated having a beautiful wife and cheated with an ugly woman inside and out.
Cross over any line and you can fall subject to anything.
You can put science into this all you want but it's all about the person and the choice they make.

[Chris]

Give it up, Chris. :deadhorse:

I hope you're not saying matters is a dead horse! ;-)

Seems she's come around to the general view expressed by others on nature vs nurture.

[KC]

Chris has the patience of a saint.

I don't really know, but I'm inclined to believe that homosexual preferences are a combination of nature and nurture.

[Adelaide]

I have never met a guy that told me in confidence he was born gay. Many factors come to play. Some are abused as children, some went to juvy and was raped by other boys. Bad relationships with women and the list goes on. But these are only excuses, the same reason why some men cheat on their wife. Lust of the flesh, the thrill of having something different. Married men will do this because they see it as a rush. People ask why would they chose to be gay. They are fulfilling their wants. People that are not gay won't understand them but if you cross the line it is dangerous. I have talked to many in my lifetime some were never abused but started out with toys they said they were buying for their wife or girlfriend but it ended up for them. It's like asking a man why they cheated having a beautiful wife and cheated with an ugly woman inside and out.
Cross over any line and you can fall subject to anything.
You can put science into this all you want but it's all about the person and the choice they make.

I probably have more gay friends than straight, and they all grew up in upper-middle class environments with no abuse - overachievers in high school, overachievers in university, overachievers in life; the quintessential positive experience. A lot, if not all, will say that they always knew from the time they first felt sexual attraction.

I'm not sure where you are getting any of your information so I'll just assume it's conjecture.

[Adelaide]

I think it's both. I think some people are born with a predisposition and their environment plays the rest of the role. I know for myself, I did not make any sort of conscious choice to be gay and I've never met or heard of another gay person saying that it WAS a conscious choice--but maybe there are some rare, rare few who did choose it consciously, who knows--but I know in the case of myself and a number of other gay men (certainly not every gay man I know), there were either a lack of a father or the father was abusive, and church was very important at early ages. For myself I somewhat blame the church I went to, which literally taught in Sunday school that the desire to look at naked women is sinful, and I always wanted to do the right thing. But that's not everyone's story, but still, I think it's both the environment and genetics.

Very good post, and I appreciate that you've shared your own experience.

[Mister D]

I think it's both. I think some people are born with a predisposition and their environment plays the rest of the role. I know for myself, I did not make any sort of conscious choice to be gay and I've never met or heard of another gay person saying that it WAS a conscious choice--but maybe there are some rare, rare few who did choose it consciously, who knows--but I know in the case of myself and a number of other gay men (certainly not every gay man I know), there were either a lack of a father or the father was abusive, and church was very important at early ages. For myself I somewhat blame the church I went to, which literally taught in Sunday school that the desire to look at naked women is sinful, and I always wanted to do the right thing. But that's not everyone's story, but still, I think it's both the environment and genetics.

What church was this?

[Peter1469]

I said a combination; and I don't mean a combo in the same person. Some may well be genetically predisposed as described by Kizz. Others may just make the choice because of environment - if they are not intimidated by conventional wisdom over these issues.

[Kizzume]

What church was this?

South Lakeshore Christian Church.

[Kizzume]

I said a combination; and I don't mean a combo in the same person. Some may well be genetically predisposed as described by Kizz. Others may just make the choice because of environment - if they are not intimidated by conventional wisdom over these issues.

I'm having a bit of a problem with your wording--and it may not have been what you were trying to imply--but when you say "others may just make the choice because of environment" it makes it sound like something someone consciously chose, which I just highly disagree with based on my own experiences and in talking with other gay people and reading about other gay people. There's a very significant difference between someone making a conscious choice and a subconscious choice.

[Chris]

I said a combination; and I don't mean a combo in the same person. Some may well be genetically predisposed as described by Kizz. Others may just make the choice because of environment - if they are not intimidated by conventional wisdom over these issues.

Would not your distinction be one between orientation and behavior? A prisoner while not being so oriented may be force to engage in homosexual behavior without ever being gay.

[Mister D]

I'm having a bit of a problem with your wording--and it may not have been what you were trying to imply--but when you say "others may just make the choice because of environment" it makes it sound like something someone consciously chose, which I just highly disagree with based on my own experiences and in talking with other gay people and reading about other gay people. There's a very significant difference between someone making a conscious choice and a subconscious choice.

I think that at least some of the homosexual behavior in prison, for example, is by conscious choice albeit a choice made under unnatural conditions.

[Mister D]

Would not your distinction be one between orientation and behavior? A prisoner while not being so oriented may be force to engage in homosexual behavior without ever being gay.

Exactly.

[Peter1469]

I'm having a bit of a problem with your wording--and it may not have been what you were trying to imply--but when you say "others may just make the choice because of environment" it makes it sound like something someone consciously chose, which I just highly disagree with based on my own experiences and in talking with other gay people and reading about other gay people. There's a very significant difference between someone making a conscious choice and a subconscious choice.

I think I would classify those people as bisexual, not gay.

When I was in Chancellorsville in 1999 eating breakfast there were a bunch of college kids next to my group. One dude was telling his group about his homosexual relationship that was just an experiment and for fun. He didn't want a long term relationship but enjoyed the experience and didn't care what, if anything, anyone else thought about it.

[Peter1469]

Would not your distinction be one between orientation and behavior? A prisoner while not being so oriented may be force to engage in homosexual behavior without ever being gay.

That is why I said combo.

[Adelaide]

I think that at least some of the homosexual behavior in prison, for example, is by conscious choice albeit a choice made under unnatural conditions.

A think that a lot of that behaviour isn't about orientation, but about power. Never been to prison except for research purposes, so maybe I'm wrong. When I think of sexual behaviour in prison I think prison sexual assault.

[Mister D]

A think that a lot of that behaviour isn't about orientation, but about power. Never been to prison except for research purposes, so maybe I'm wrong. When I think of sexual behaviour in prison I think prison sexual assault.

I'm sure some is but much homosexual behavior isn't predatory. You see that even on prison documentaries.

[Chris]

An interesting summary of evolutionary aspects of why there are homosexuals: The Evolutionary Mystery of Homosexuality (http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/135762/).

[LiarSOB]

From what I saw, there is about 10 % gays in every school, and some are pushy, some are sleek, some are crazy. The pushy ones become gay rapists, the sleek ones turn straight guys gay, and the crazy ones become visible. Also someone told me that the more a school is away from the 50-50 female-male ratio, the more gays-lesbians it produces. I think this is true, because it is harder to organize a "make-friends" trip between single-sex schools than between co-educated schools. So the genetic disposition is widespread if not universal, but it is the environment that completes the job of turning guys gay, I think.

[Conley]

From what I saw, there is about 10 % gays in every school, and some are pushy, some are sleek, some are crazy. The pushy ones become gay rapists, the sleek ones turn straight guys gay, and the crazy ones become visible. Also someone told me that the more a school is away from the 50-50 female-male ratio, the more gays-lesbians it produces. I think this is true, because it is harder to organize a "make-friends" trip between single-sex schools than between co-educated schools. So the genetic disposition is widespread if not universal, but it is the environment that completes the job of turning guys gay, I think.

What country did you observe this in?

[LiarSOB]

What country did you observe this in?
US, UK, and France.

[RightWingHomosexual]

As a homosexual (I despise the term "gay" because its a political term) I do not beleive we are born this way (as Lady Gaga states) I beleive that it is developed over time. Sexual molestation, porn, the over-sexualized environment we live in, will certainly turn many straight men, gay. However, I have also met 100% homosexual men (one I dated) who left the lifestyle and jumped the fence, married, had children and currently live happy, wonderful, productive lives. I reject the "gay gene" arguement as political (like HIV). Homosexuality is certainly there, and it may be a genetic factor at birth (like having blue or brown eyes) but environment plays a large role.

[Seriy]

Homosexuality is not a genetic. Only goofs trust this major liberal media that raves a propaganda and invents all kind of junk science that people are born gays. People are not born as GLBT, they become them. Sometimes homosexuality is a mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse by adults.

[Chris]

Homosexuality is not a genetic. Only goofs trust this major liberal media that raves a propaganda and invents all kind of junk science that people are born gays. People are not born as GLBT, they become them. Sometimes homosexuality is a mental disorder caused by childhood sexual abuse by adults.

Not big on science are you.

[Seriy]

We mustn't forget the true terrible fact that sodomites or fags as they are called, introduced AIDS to America in 1980s XX Century. Ignorance of morons is going on and on.

[Peter1469]

We mustn't forget the true terrible fact that sodomites or fags as they are called, introduced AIDS to America in 1980s XX Century. Ignorance of morons is going on and on.

In other places, like Africa, it is a hetero disease.

[Adelaide]

We mustn't forget the true terrible fact that sodomites or fags as they are called, introduced AIDS to America in 1980s XX Century. Ignorance of morons is going on and on.

Actually, it was introduced to the United States in the 60s or 70s from individuals from Haiti who had been in contact with infected individuals from Congo. The first confirmed case in the United States was in 1969 through tissue testing done later in the late 1980s.

[Seriy]

Actually, it was introduced to the United States in the 60s or 70s from individuals from Haiti who had been in contact with infected individuals from Congo. The first confirmed case in the United States was in 1969 through tissue testing done later in the late 1980s.
The AIDS epidemic outbreak indeed exploded since the 80s. First people considered it was just GLBT illness, but tragically it struck heteros mostly among fornicators and adulterers, also, many innocent people fell victims to AIDS due to blood aid, because blood banks had no idea about AIDS dangers.

[Chris]

The AIDS epidemic outbreak indeed exploded since the 80s. First people considered it was just GLBT illness, but tragically it struck heteros mostly among fornicators and adulterers, also, many innocent people fell victims to AIDS due to blood aid, because blood banks had no idea about AIDS dangers.

Seriy, give up while your behind, AIDs is not a gay disease. It's a shame there are still people who spread such nonsense.

[Seriy]

Seriy, give up while your behind, AIDs is not a gay disease. It's a shame there are still people who spread such nonsense.
In fact it is not a gay disease, Chris. But it was brought to America by homosexuals, before it exploded into an outbreak in 1980s among all types of sexually oriented people.

[Adelaide]

The AIDS epidemic outbreak indeed exploded since the 80s. First people considered it was just GLBT illness, but tragically it struck heteros mostly among fornicators and adulterers, also, many innocent people fell victims to AIDS due to blood aid, because blood banks had no idea about AIDS dangers.

You said introduced and were wrong. Scientific evidence proves you wrong. Yes, it became a more widespread problem and it did "explode" in the 80s but it was introduced to the United States much earlier than the 80s.

[Greenridgeman]

We mustn't forget the true terrible fact that sodomites or fags as they are called, introduced AIDS to America in 1980s XX Century. Ignorance of morons is going on and on.


Actually, I think it got here in the 60's, just was not recognized for a while.

Sexuality of initial victims I do not know.

[Seriy]

I normally agree with Adelaide and with Greenridgeman that AIDS takes its roots in the 60s era, but at those times people had no attentions paid on this killer.

[Peter1469]

I normally agree with Adelaide and with Greenridgeman that AIDS takes its roots in the 60s era, but at those times people had no attentions paid on this killer.

They didn't know it existed at that time.

[spunkloaf]

Seriy, what is your point in bringing it up anyways?

[Adelaide]

They didn't know it existed at that time.

No, they knew it existed. I don't think they realised what they had on their hands, or what could potentially happen. It was discovered in Congo but science and medicine was not sophisticated enough to be able to fully understand the implications. Not understanding the disease, means not understanding transmission, means not being able to grasp what could happen on a large scale. It's not that attention wasn't paid, but that those who saw and found the disease had absolutely no idea what to do with that information.

[Peter1469]

No, they knew it existed. I don't think they realised what they had on their hands, or what could potentially happen. It was discovered in Congo but science and medicine was not sophisticated enough to be able to fully understand the implications. Not understanding the disease, means not understanding transmission, means not being able to grasp what could happen on a large scale. It's not that attention wasn't paid, but that those who saw and found the disease had absolutely no idea what to do with that information.

Thanks for the info. Would it be fair to say that the general population had no clue at that time?

[Adelaide]

Thanks for the info. Would it be fair to say that the general population had no clue at that time?

Absolutely. The small amount of physicians and scientists that had single cases on their hands ended up preserving tissue samples that were later analysed in the 80s and 90s. They knew it was something, but that they lacked the appropriate diagnostic tools to figure it out. Couple that with the fact that the first cases were in different places and not on a large scale, there was no communication between those who found the disease in Congo, or those in Haiti or those in the initial cases in the United States and a single case of a disease makes it incredibly difficult to understand. Very rare diseases today are a good example - who knows if there are cases in places with few physicians, and whether those few physicians would understand what they were dealing with, and without a large sample group do you really have enough information to go on? It wasn't until there were multiple cases in the United States that communication about the disease became a priority.

[Common]

I think it's both. I think some people are born with a predisposition and their environment plays the rest of the role. I know for myself, I did not make any sort of conscious choice to be gay and I've never met or heard of another gay person saying that it WAS a conscious choice--but maybe there are some rare, rare few who did choose it consciously, who knows--but I know in the case of myself and a number of other gay men (certainly not every gay man I know), there were either a lack of a father or the father was abusive, and church was very important at early ages. For myself I somewhat blame the church I went to, which literally taught in Sunday school that the desire to look at naked women is sinful, and I always wanted to do the right thing. But that's not everyone's story, but still, I think it's both the environment and genetics.

Extremely fair minded post and I believe totally honest. Now heres where I get into alot of trouble.
I believe gay men are most likely born or genetically predisposed. I say most likely because I really dont know. I dont think anyone else does either.
I believe there are women who are the same born into it but I believe theres many women that ease into it that are genetically heterosexual. I believe its easier for women to change emotionaly, traumatically or environmentally. I say this because I know a person who is very close to me that decided she wanted to be in a gay relationship at 46 after two marriages and being a grandmother. My wife asked her point blank are you a homosexual, she said no I just do not want to live in a relationship with any more men but I am not a homosexual in the sense thats what ive always wanted. She also denied being bisexual, she says I dont want anything to do with me anymore.
Either way homosexuals are different, I know they hate to hear that but its just the way it is, 97% of humans are heterosexual 3% homosexual how can anyone call that normal

[nic34]

It's not normal, it's natural. That 97% - 3% holds true in all of the rest of the world.

And it is not a choice. If you are straight, would you wake up some day and decide to be gay?

[junie]

It's not normal, it's natural. That 97% - 3% holds true in all of the rest of the world.

And it is not a choice. If you are straight, would you wake up some day and decide to be gay?



some days you just might wake up feeling pretty and witty........... you know? :dontknow:

[Chris]

It's not normal, it's natural. That 97% - 3% holds true in all of the rest of the world.

And it is not a choice. If you are straight, would you wake up some day and decide to be gay?

And there are statistical norms and social norms.

[junie]

It's not normal, it's natural. That 97% - 3% holds true in all of the rest of the world.

And it is not a choice. If you are straight, would you wake up some day and decide to be gay?



exactly and we live in a free country so, so what IF it was some individual consenting adult's "choice" in the bedroom anyway...?

[roadmaster]

It's not normal, it's natural. That 97% - 3% holds true in all of the rest of the world.

And it is not a choice. If you are straight, would you wake up some day and decide to be gay?

A few of my friends did after bad relationships with women. How about the bi-sexuals are they just confused?

[spunkloaf]

I should point out that just because one theory may get the most votes, that doesn't mean we know the answer.

[KC]

I should point out that just because one theory may get the most votes, that doesn't mean we know the answer.

Right, it just means it is the most popular belief.

[Greenridgeman]

I normally agree with Adelaide and with Greenridgeman that AIDS takes its roots in the 60s era, but at those times people had no attentions paid on this killer.


It was here awhile before it was identified.

It sure killed the old TV show, "Great Chefs of San Francisco".

[Mister D]

I should point out that just because one theory may get the most votes, that doesn't mean we know the answer.

To date, we don't know.

[Mister D]

A few of my friends did after bad relationships with women. How about the bi-sexuals are they just confused?

The "bisexual" men I have met are gay men trying to convince themselves and others they are not 100% homosexual.

[Adelaide]

A few of my friends did after bad relationships with women. How about the bi-sexuals are they just confused?

Bisexuals are attracted to both male and females - that's not confusion. Sexuality isn't black and white. You aren't either straight or gay. Some people are even asexual. Confusions implies not knowing yourself, which would apply to those who are questioning their sexuality, not those who embrace it.

[Greenridgeman]

Bisexuals are attracted to both male and females - that's not confusion. Sexuality isn't black and white. You aren't either straight or gay. Some people are even asexual. Confusions implies not knowing yourself, which would apply to those who are questioning their sexuality, not those who embrace it.



"You aren't either straight or gay"

Speak for yourself.

Some people are ALL gay and some are ALL straight.

[Adelaide]

"You aren't either straight or gay"

Speak for yourself.

Some people are ALL gay and some are ALL straight.

I'm saying you aren't one or the other and that they're the only sexual orientations, hence the italicized "or".

[roadmaster]

Bisexuals are attracted to both male and females - that's not confusion. Sexuality isn't black and white. You aren't either straight or gay. Some people are even asexual. Confusions implies not knowing yourself, which would apply to those who are questioning their sexuality, not those who embrace it. LOL you will excuse anything. But in a way you proved my point, it's a choice.

[jillian]

This topic has come up in previous threads I have participated on and I am curious where everyone stands on the issue: Is homosexuality (or bisexuality) something that an individual is born to, or is it something caused by environmental/social factors? Or both?

What is the reasoning for your decision or belief?

every person i know who is gay believes it is a combination of nurture and nature... like any other genetic predisposition, it might manifest under certain circumstances.

[jillian]

LOL you will excuse anything. But in a way you proved my point, it's a choice.

are you still saying that?

you wake up every morning and have to choose not to be attracted to someone of the same sex? i doubt it.

people are who they are.

[roadmaster]

are you still saying that?

you wake up every morning and have to choose not to be attracted to someone of the same sex? i doubt it.

people are who they are. So are people who like animals but they did make a choice.

[jillian]

So are people who like animals but they did make a choice.

thanks for the thoughtful response.

/sarcasm

[BillyBob]

So are people who like animals but they did make a choice.

You mean like the Donkey Shows in Tijuana?

[roadmaster]

thanks for the thoughtful response.

/sarcasm
Why do you have something against them? I do hope you are not judging.

[spunkloaf]

The "bisexual" men I have met are gay men trying to convince themselves and others they are not 100% homosexual.

If you wanted to get down to brass tacks, it would be hard to find anybody who is %100.0000 straight or gay though. Myself for example, I find Angela Stone's squirting abilities very attractive. It is only a general implied notion I gather from human interactions. Some of my straightest friends have told me of homosexual encounters. You are correct though, I tried telling people around me that I'm bisexual just to "break the ice" so to speak. It's ridiculous how I need to walk on eggshells, and everybody else can be open and comfortable talking about their NORMAL sex lives.

[BillyBob]

Why do you have something against them? I do hope you are not judging.

Good point. Who is she to say that bestiality is wrong?

[BillyBob]

If you wanted to get down to brass tacks, it would be hard to find anybody who is 0.0000 straight or gay though. Myself for example, I find Angela Stone's squirting abilities very attractive. It is only a general implied notion I gather from human interactions. Some of my straightest friends have told me of homosexual encounters. You are correct though, I tried telling people around me that I'm bisexual just to "break the ice" so to speak. It's ridiculous how I need to walk on eggshells, and everybody else can be open and comfortable talking about their NORMAL sex lives.

Most people are clearly heterosexual. Just because some folks are confused about their sexuality doesn't automatically mean everyone is. I realize thinking they are might help you feel better about your own particular persuasion, but it's just not true.

[Mister D]

If you wanted to get down to brass tacks, it would be hard to find anybody who is 0.0000 straight or gay though. Myself for example, I find Angela Stone's squirting abilities very attractive. It is only a general implied notion I gather from human interactions. Some of my straightest friends have told me of homosexual encounters. You are correct though, I tried telling people around me that I'm bisexual just to "break the ice" so to speak. It's ridiculous how I need to walk on eggshells, and everybody else can be open and comfortable talking about their NORMAL sex lives.

I'm pretty sure I'm at 100%. :smiley: On the other hand, I think straight females are generally more open to experimentation of that kind.

I also noticed a genuine hatred for women among these guys. Not the silly accusations you see on places like this forum. I mean a real contempt that comes across subtly.

[BillyBob]

I think straight females are generally more open to experimentation of that kind.


And we should encourage them every chance we get.

[Chris]

every person i know who is gay believes it is a combination of nurture and nature... like any other genetic predisposition, it might manifest under certain circumstances.

Nature, nurture, and choice. Whether you are straight or gay you make choices to engage is sexual behavior. We're not robots.

[jillian]

Nature, nurture, and choice. Whether you are straight or gay you make choices to engage is sexual behavior. We're not robots.

really?

serious question... do you believe that under any set of circumstances you could be attracted to a man?

[Chris]

really?

serious question... do you believe that under any set of circumstances you could be attracted to a man?

Seriously, look at what i said. You don't choose when and where and with whom you have sex? Animals don't choose, people do.

[jillian]

Seriously, look at what i said. You don't choose when and where and with whom you have sex? Animals don't choose, people do.

ohhh.. i see. so you believe that homosexuals should have sex with people they find repellent sexually.

not going to happen and it's not a reasonable thing to demand of people.

actually, it's a pretty awful thing to demand of people.

[Chris]

ohhh.. i see. so you believe that homosexuals should have sex with people they find repellent sexually.

not going to happen and it's not a reasonable thing to demand of people.

actually, it's a pretty awful thing to demand of people.

Can you show me the words in what I posted that say anything like that? Look at what I said, and then clarified, read slowly, carefully, read what it says, not what you want to interject into it.

[jillian]

Can you show me the words in what I posted that say anything like that? Look at what I said, and then clarified slowly, carefully, read what it says, not what you want to interject into it.

in other words, you're refusing to actually discuss this issue and just want to play.

my question was simple.

you believe either
a) that you choose to not be attracted to people of the same sex
b) that you should be abstinent if you are attracted to people of the same sex; or
c) that someone attracted to people of one sex can force themselves to have sex with people to whom they are not attracted.

your turn.

[roadmaster]

Good point. Who is she to say that bestiality is wrong?

The ones into this say we all came from animals. They will argue that the animal is willing and that they were born that way. You are correct, who is she to say that they are not.

[BillyBob]

ohhh.. i see. so you believe that homosexuals should have sex with people they find repellent sexually.


They'd be much better off not having sex at all.

[Chris]

in other words, you're refusing to actually discuss this issue and just want to play.

my question was simple.

I'm refusing to discuss your straw men, yes, why should I, you can make them up and argue with your self, you don't need me to join you.

[jillian]

The ones into this say we all came from animals. They will argue that the animal is willing and that they were born that way. You are correct, who is she to say that they are not.

talking about animals is idiocy. we are talking about consenting adults.

but i'm sure you don't have any understanding of how vile and offensive your analogy is.

[Chris]

The ones into this say we all came from animals. They will argue that the animal is willing and that they were born that way. You are correct, who is she to say that they are not.

Since an animal can't communicate it I'd say it's safe to say they're no rational enough to choose and consent.

[roadmaster]

talking about animals is idiocy. we are talking about consenting adults.

but i'm sure you don't have any understanding of how vile and offensive your analogy is.

They were animals in their first lives. How do you know if they weren't born that way?Do you think they woke up one day and said to themselves they are attracted to animals?

[Greenridgeman]

really?

serious question... do you believe that under any set of circumstances you could be attracted to a man?



I couldn't.

Even when offered a lot of money I coudn't even fake it.

[jillian]

I couldn't.

Even when offered a lot of money I coudn't even fake it.

exactly.

which is why you know it isn't a choice.

[BillyBob]

talking about animals is idiocy. we are talking about consenting adults.

Oh, so you're saying that bestiality is vile but homosexuality is perfectly fine? Who are you to make this determination? Are you a bigot?!!



but i'm sure you don't have any understanding of how vile and offensive your analogy is.

I'm sure you don't have any understanding how vile and offensive your bigotry is. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing you didn't understand.

[Greenridgeman]

exactly.

which is why you know it isn't a choice.


I'm not the one asserting nobody is 100% straight.

[Chris]

exactly.

which is why you know it isn't a choice.

See, you're doing a fine job of arguing that straw man without me. :-)

[BillyBob]

exactly.

which is why you know it isn't a choice.


No, he could choose to let some guy slip his peeny into his ass. He just won't. He could also choose to fight a lion barehanded, drink poison and shoot himself in the head. But it doesn't look as if he'll choose those options either.

[junie]

Oh, so you're saying that bestiality is vile but homosexuality is perfectly fine? Who are you to make this determination? Are you a bigot?!!




I'm sure you don't have any understanding how vile and offensive your bigotry is. It certainly wouldn't be the first thing you didn't understand.



is anybody surprised you fail to grasp the concept of consent? (deliberately) zzz

[BillyBob]

is anybody surprised you fail to grasp the concept of consent? (deliberately) zzz


So as long as your donkey gives his consent to have sex with you, you can legally be wed?

[Greenridgeman]

So as long as your donkey gives his consent to have sex with you, you can legally be wed?

I had some dogs that gave consent to sodomize to each other.

I tied bricks to their tails and stopped that crap.

[spunkloaf]

So as long as your donkey gives his consent to have sex with you, you can legally be wed?

The reason this is a dumb conversation is because you don't want to understand anything, and you're so confident to know something about homosexuality but you haven't the slightest clue. It's offensive. I see your behavior here and I have to ask why any of us even try to have conversations? Are you here to teach everybody a lesson or to learn something?

[killianr1]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BillyBob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=282580#post282580) So as long as your donkey gives his consent to have sex with you, you can legally be wed?
The reason this is a dumb conversation is because you don't want to understand anything, and you're so confident to know something about homosexuality but you haven't the slightest clue. It's offensive. I see your behavior here and I have to ask why any of us even try to have conversations? Are you here to teach everybody a lesson or to learn something? I did not wake up one day and decide I was gay. I doubt that any straight person woke up one day and decided they wanted to be heterosexual. So I do not think it is a choice............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................... ........... And as for gay marriage, I think it is the most expedient way for gays to achieve equal protection under the law for their partner. Right now I show little support to either side. I would start lobbying against gay marriage if my conservative friends would start lobbying for civil unions and equal protection under the law. It is a very simple and easy way to take the offensiveness of the gay marriage issue.

[Peter1469]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BillyBob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=282580#post282580) So as long as your donkey gives his consent to have sex with you, you can legally be wed? I did not wake up one day and decide I was gay. I doubt that any straight person woke up one day and decided they wanted to be heterosexual. So I do not think it is a choice............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................... ........... And as for gay marriage, I think it is the most expedient way for gays to achieve equal protection under the law for their partner. Right now I show little support to either side. I would start lobbying against gay marriage if my conservative friends would start lobbying for civil unions and equal protection under the law. It is a very simple and easy way to take the offensiveness of the gay marriage issue.

I agree.

[spunkloaf]

I agree.

I'm much more sympathetic of this attitude, but I still don't understand the argument against gay marriage to begin with. Why can't it be God's responsibility to judge the "morality" of gay marriage? As if marriage is an institution that would lose some kind of real estate value by letting gays marry; that is absolutely absurd to me. Even if nobody has to agree with me, how can there be

[Chris]

I'm much more sympathetic of this attitude, but I still don't understand the argument against gay marriage to begin with. Why can't it be God's responsibility to judge the "morality" of gay marriage? As if marriage is an institution that would lose some kind of real estate value by letting gays marry; that is absolutely absurd to me. Even if nobody has to agree with me, how can there be

In all the years I've seen arguments on this topic I have yet to hear one person explain the harm in removing restrictions on gays to marry.

[Adelaide]

In all the years I've seen arguments on this topic I have yet to hear one person explain the harm in removing restrictions on gays to marry.

I think you mean that you've yet to hear an explanation that makes sense. If someone thinks that same-sex marriage is evil and sinful then don't get "gay married". It seems pretty simple.

[Chris]

I think you mean that you've yet to hear an explanation that makes sense. If someone thinks that same-sex marriage is evil and sinful then don't get "gay married". It seems pretty simple.

No, I have yet to hear an explanation. I've heard it's a sin, a redefining of a word, a change in tradition, etc, but never an explanation of the purported harm.

[Perianne]

Mother and son want to marry. Why not?

http://www.naijaurban.com/40yearold-mother-sleeps-son-pregnant/

[jillian]

for a lot of reasons.... including the fact that it started as child abuse.

but don't let that deter you.

[Perianne]

but don't let that deter you.

From what?

[Dr. Who]

Mother and son want to marry. Why not?

http://www.naijaurban.com/40yearold-mother-sleeps-son-pregnant/

There is this little thing about incest, and child abuse aside, inbreeding can result in birth defects.

[jillian]

From what?

from implying, on a thread about homosexuality, that it should be likened to incest.

[Perianne]

...we are talking about consenting adults...


for a lot of reasons.... including the fact that it started as child abuse...


from implying, on a thread about homosexuality, that it should be likened to incest.

Thanks for the analysis, but I implied nothing except that this relationship is between consenting adults. BTW, the son was 20 when the affair started. Who are we, as a people, to judge what two consenting adults choose to do?

[Chris]

There is this little thing about incest, and child abuse aside, inbreeding can result in birth defects.

Agree, because it can result in harm.

[Mister D]

Thanks for the analysis, but I implied nothing except that this relationship is between consenting adults. BTW, the son was 20 when the affair started. Who are we, as a people, to judge what two consenting adults choose to do?

The morons who champion gay marriage don't think things through.

[Chris]

The morons who champion gay marriage don't think things through.

What is supposed to be thought through and why?

[Mister D]

What is supposed to be thought through and why?

You support polygamy. for example. That's fine. Just acknowledge it.

[Chris]

The morons who champion gay marriage don't think things through.


What is supposed to be thought through and why?


You support polygamy. for example. That's fine. Just acknowledge it.

Non sequitur straw man.

[Mister D]

Non sequitur straw man.

We may take that as an acknowledgement that you didn't think this through too well. Thanks.

[Chris]

We may take that as an acknowledgement that you didn't think this through too well. Thanks.

You can make up whatever you wish I suppose.

[Mister D]

You can make up whatever you wish I suppose.

And you can support polygamy. no worries.

[Chris]

And you can support polygamy. no worries.

Why are you making things up? How do you justify that?

[Mister D]

Why are you making things up? How do you justify that?

Polygamy is justified by your logic. Are you going to pretend it causes harm again? lol

[Chris]

Polygamy is justified by your logic. Are you going to pretend it causes harm again? lol

First you put words in my mouth now you put logic in my head? How do you justify straw men like that?

[Mister D]

First you put words in my mouth now you put logic in my head? How do you justify straw men like that?

Listen, bigot, just don't think you can interfere with what consenting adults want to do. :wink:

[Chris]

Listen, bigot, just don't think you can interfere with what consenting adults want to do. :wink:

From straw man to ad hom. Quite impressive.

[Mister D]

From straw man to ad hom. Quite impressive.

Your reasoning on this subject hasn't been impressive at all. I'd run from it too.

[Chris]

Your reasoning on this subject hasn't been impressive at all. I'd run from it too.

Tell me more about my reasoning, D, let your imagination go wild, really really impress us.

[Mister D]

Tell me more about my reasoning, D, let your imagination go wild, really really impress us.

I've told you all you need to know. :smiley:

[Chris]

I've told you all you need to know. :smiley:

I see. Ran out of straw I guess.

[Mister D]

I see. Ran out of straw I guess.

Demonstrating the inconsistency of your position didn't take long. It never does. It just takes you time to see it ut in this case you hurried. Thanks.

[Chris]

Demonstrating the inconsistency of your position didn't take long. It never does. It just takes you time to see it ut in this case you hurried. Thanks.

With straw men anything can be demonstrated. You certainly should applaud yourself.

[Mister D]

With straw men anything can be demonstrated. You certainly should applaud yourself.

For what? It's too easy.

[Chris]

For what? It's too easy.

Making things up sure is. Ever consider writing fiction for a career? You might then even make some money for it.

[Mister D]

Making things up sure is. Ever consider writing fiction for a career? You might then even make some money for it.

I'm not surprised you can't or won't face the consequences of your poor reasoning. Ever consider a little more reflection before opining?

[Chris]

I'm not surprised you can't or won't face the consequences of your poor reasoning. Ever consider a little more reflection before opining?

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

[Mister D]

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug

[Chris]

I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

[Mister D]

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug

Watch he'll do this all day. :laugh:

[Chris]

I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug

Watch he'll do this all day. :laugh:

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

Always amazes me how fault goes to the one pointing out another's logical fallacies.

[Mister D]

Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.

Always amazes me how fault goes to the one pointing out another's logical fallacies.

It no longer amazes me how often you retreat into "ad hom!", "contradiction!", "straw man!". :wink:

[Chris]

It no longer amazes me how often you retreat into "ad hom!", "contradiction!", "straw man!". :wink:

Always amazes me how fault goes to the one pointing out another's logical fallacies.

[Mister D]

Always amazes me how fault goes to the one pointing out another's logical fallacies.

You merely claim them. :smiley:

[Chris]

You merely claim them. :smiley:

No, I pointed it out. Said you were putting words in my mouth. The implication is clear I don't think what you invented as a straw man. It makes no sense for me to defend you inventions. You can post logical fallacies till the cows come home for all I care. Why don't you link up with jillian, the two of you sound the same in this regard.

[Mister D]

No, I pointed it out. Said you were putting words in my mouth. The implication is clear I don't think what you invented as a straw man. It makes no sense for me to defend you inventions. You can post logical fallacies till the cows come home for all I care. Why don't you link up with jillian, the two of you sound the same in this regard.


You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it along with much else. Sorry if that makes you angry. Do more thinking and less talking, perhaps? Or not. Shrug

Sorry, I don't care much for Jillian or her fan club. :smiley:

[Chris]

You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it along with much else. Sorry if that makes you angry. Do more thinking and less talking, perhaps? Or not. Shrug

Sorry, I don't care much for Jillian or her fan club. :smiley:

Uh, I don't. It is therefore a straw man.

But you'd be a perfect match since you both engage in and defend made up straw men.

[Mister D]

Uh, I don't. It is therefore a straw man.

But you'd be a perfect match since you both engage in and defend made up straw men.

Yes, you do. How could you not? Your own logic traps you. :smiley:

[Chris]

Yes, you do. How could you not? Your own logic traps you. :smiley:

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

[junie]

You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it along with much else. Sorry if that makes you angry. Do more thinking and less talking, perhaps? Or not. Shrug

Sorry, I don't care much for Jillian or her fan club. :smiley:



lol hey, i resemble that remark! :kiss:

[Mister D]

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

It's like pulling teeth with this guy. :laugh: Thank you. You could save us all a lot of time by adopting Cigar's MO at the start.

[Mister D]

lol hey, i resemble that remark! :kiss:

You're old. Yuck.

[junie]

You're old. Yuck.



lol oh pardon me s0n, i didn't realize you came here to cruise for young chicks.


i hope someone has warned Chloe !!! :laughing4:

[Chris]

It's like pulling teeth with this guy. :laugh: Thank you. You could save us all a lot of time by adopting Cigar's MO at the start.

You're right, it's like pulling teeth to get me to defend your made up straw men. Why would I? Better yet, why do you make them up?

[Mister D]

You're right, it's like pulling teeth to get me to defend your made up straw men. Why would I? Better yet, why do you make them up?

You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it. Less talking and more thinking next time.

[Chris]

The morons who champion gay marriage don't think things through.


What is supposed to be thought through and why?


You support polygamy. for example. That's fine. Just acknowledge it.


Non sequitur straw man.


We may take that as an acknowledgement that you didn't think this through too well. Thanks.


You can make up whatever you wish I suppose.


And you can support polygamy. no worries.


Why are you making things up? How do you justify that?


Polygamy is justified by your logic. Are you going to pretend it causes harm again? lol


First you put words in my mouth now you put logic in my head? How do you justify straw men like that?


Listen, bigot, just don't think you can interfere with what consenting adults want to do. :wink:


From straw man to ad hom. Quite impressive.


Your reasoning on this subject hasn't been impressive at all. I'd run from it too.


Tell me more about my reasoning, D, let your imagination go wild, really really impress us.


I've told you all you need to know. :smiley:


I see. Ran out of straw I guess.


Demonstrating the inconsistency of your position didn't take long. It never does. It just takes you time to see it ut in this case you hurried. Thanks.


With straw men anything can be demonstrated. You certainly should applaud yourself.


For what? It's too easy.


Making things up sure is. Ever consider writing fiction for a career? You might then even make some money for it.


I'm not surprised you can't or won't face the consequences of your poor reasoning. Ever consider a little more reflection before opining?


Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.


I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug


Why would I defend your made up straw men? I didn't make them up, you did, you defend them.


I guess inconsistency is a way out for you. lol Shrug

Watch he'll do this all day. :laugh:


It's like pulling teeth with this guy. :laugh: Thank you. You could save us all a lot of time by adopting Cigar's MO at the start.


You're right, it's like pulling teeth to get me to defend your made up straw men. Why would I? Better yet, why do you make them up?


You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it. Less talking and more thinking next time.

Deja vu much?

[Mister D]

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

You do support polygamy and your logic justifies it. Less talking and more thinking next time. Liberaltarianism....:rollseyes:

[junie]

Deja vu much?



funny, i was just thinking how every single thread is like groundhog day with you. zzz

[Chris]

What's that definition of insanity, repeating the same action expecting a different result? You can keep making up straw men, but they will never amount to anything more than straw men.

[Chris]

funny, i was just thinking how every single thread is like groundhog day with you. zzz

Here you go, D, another teammate.

[Mister D]

Here you go, D, another teammate.

I have it all under control. Thanks though, Junie!

[Common]

Here you go, D, another teammate.

there ya go with your one liners

[Common]

I share the same view of gay marriage as Mr D, I just cant get past two men being married as being just ridiculous.
Whos the husband whos the wife I mean really.

[Dr. Who]

I share the same view of gay marriage as Mr D, I just cant get past two men being married as being just ridiculous.
Whos the husband whos the wife I mean really.LOL you could say the same of some hetero marriages. Roles ain't what they used to be.

[Common]

LOL you could say the same of some hetero marriages. Roles ain't what they used to be.

Not true it is not the same and I know you realize that. We even have to change the language of ageless traditional marriage vows. Do you take this man to be your lawful wedded husband. DO YOU take this man to be your lawful wedded wife. GTFO its absurd it shouldnt be and this is about a group of people that arent satisfied with civil unions that gives them every right as married couples they want to destroy the tradition of marriage for the other 96.5% humans for whatever the reason.

[auelle]

Not true it is not the same and I know you realize that. We even have to change the language of ageless traditional marriage vows. Do you take this man to be your lawful wedded husband. DO YOU take this man to be your lawful wedded wife. GTFO its absurd it shouldnt be and this is about a group of people that arent satisfied with civil unions that gives them every right as married couples they want to destroy the tradition of marriage for the other 96.5% humans for whatever the reason.

How is the tradition destroyed? Are heterosexual people just never going to marry again? Are they all going to have to divorce and hate their kids?

Why?

If you want to make up special words like "civil union" that are synonyms to existing words, i will play the semantic game.

If it is exactly the same how is it different.

[Kabuki Joe]

...I personally think it's nature, just like with every thing else in the world...

[Chris]

...I personally think it's nature, just like with every thing else in the world...

Isn't nature also the environment that nurtures?

[Kabuki Joe]

LOL you could say the same of some hetero marriages. Roles ain't what they used to be.

...which is why the divorce rate is so high...