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Kabuki Joe
12-07-2012, 02:54 PM
...I saw an article on FB about same-sex marriage (from my local FOX affiliate) and it bugs me when religious people say GOD loves everyone, including the gays...really?...here's what happened to sodom and gomorrah...well, in theory anyway:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml)

Mister D
12-07-2012, 03:09 PM
What bugs you about it?

GrassrootsConservative
12-07-2012, 04:26 PM
The whole idea of Christianity is that God will judge people, and you should tolerate them.

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Mister D
12-07-2012, 04:31 PM
The whole idea of Christianity is that God will judge people, and you should tolerate them.

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

That's not the whole idea of Christianity. lol In any case, what does that have to do with the OP?

Kabuki Joe
12-07-2012, 05:02 PM
...because god doesn't love gays (people that live in "sodomy") otherwise he wouldn't nuke sodom and gomorrah...


Kabuki Joe

roadmaster
12-07-2012, 08:42 PM
...because god doesn't love gays (people that live in "sodomy") otherwise he wouldn't nuke sodom and gomorrah...


Kabuki Joe
You are not looking at it through His eyes. That would be like saying He hates liars. Have you ever lied because I know I have. Just because He doesn't approve of the sin doesn't mean He hates the person. In Sodom and Gomorrah their was more going on than just men with men ect. These people were evil.

Peter1469
12-07-2012, 08:50 PM
You are not looking at it through His eyes. That would be like saying He hates liars. Have you ever lied because I know I have. Just because He doesn't approve of the sin doesn't mean He hates the person. In Sodom and Gomorrah their was more going on than just men with men ect. These people were evil.

One theory with S & G as well as pre-flood earth was than man was tainted with the DNA of the nephilim. Morality, or the lack thereof, was not God's concern.

Seriy
01-15-2013, 10:59 PM
All true Christians who fear God and obey His Commandments know well what God warns in KJV Bible dealing with sin called homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22. Romans 1:25-27,32. Jude 1:7. 2 Peter 2:12-13.

GrassrootsConservative
01-15-2013, 11:03 PM
All true Christians who fear God and obey His Commandments know well what God warns in KJV Bible dealing with sin called homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22. Romans 1:25-27,32. Jude 1:7. 2 Peter 2:12-13.

That's right. God calls all his true followers to hate gays and rape virgins. (And pay them for it)


28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A28-29&version=NIV#fen-NIV-5500a)] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A28-29&version=NIV

The word of God, for the people of God. Thanks be to God.

Seriy
01-15-2013, 11:28 PM
That's right. God calls all his true followers to hate gays and rape virgins. (And pay them for it)
Actually God judges fornicators who rape those virgins. We all familiar in KJV Bible in dealing with whoremongers, fornicators, and adulterers in Hebrews 13:4.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A28-29&version=NIV

The word of God, for the people of God. Thanks be to God.

Agravan
01-16-2013, 12:29 AM
Welcome Seriy, you have just met the most Theophobic character on this site. GRC has a visceral htred of all things Christian and fancies himself an expert in the negatives of all, but especially Christian, religions.
My advice, do not engage his intolerance because, despite being proven wrong many times, will never concede defeat but will continue to crow about being right and winning.
His other beliefs are all rational, mostly, conservative principles, but on religion, he is worse than the furthest left, insanely irrational, lefty atheist. You will find some rational atheists on this site, who do not go out of their way to antagonize Christians. Welcome to the site.

GRC, no slam intended, just warning him what to expect. We agree on 95% of your views, but you are utterly irrational on religion, Bud. Just chill, no one is trying to convert you. You're safe.

Seriy
01-16-2013, 12:42 AM
Welcome Seriy, you have just met the most Theophobic character on this site. GRC has a visceral htred of all things Christian and fancies himself an expert in the negatives of all, but especially Christian, religions.
My advice, do not engage his intolerance because, despite being proven wrong many times, will never concede defeat but will continue to crow about being right and winning.
His other beliefs are all rational, mostly, conservative principles, but on religion, he is worse than the furthest left, insanely irrational, lefty atheist. You will find some rational atheists on this site, who do not go out of their way to antagonize Christians. Welcome to the site.

GRC, no slam intended, just warning him what to expect. We agree on 95% of your views, but you are utterly irrational on religion, Bud. Just chill, no one is trying to convert you. You're safe.
I believe what I believe. Thanks.

Agravan
01-16-2013, 12:45 AM
I believe what I believe. Thanks.

So do I. Good luck to you then...

Seriy
01-16-2013, 01:00 AM
So do I. Good luck to you then...
Thanks :)

Agravan
01-16-2013, 01:08 AM
Thanks :)
http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=619&type=sigpic&dateline=1358315077
Christian Right Wing lone wolf


You are not alone.

Carygrant
01-16-2013, 05:14 AM
That's right. God calls all his true followers to hate gays and rape virgins. (And pay them for it)


Do you regularly follow God's word and rape Virgins ?
This could change my whole outlook .

Seriy
01-16-2013, 10:04 AM
You are not alone.
I know it.

TheDictator
03-21-2013, 09:17 PM
God does not hate anyone, God loved Hittler when he was alive. God loves the homosexual, child rapist, the child murderer, the racist and all kinds of sinners. Just because God loves you does not mean he will not send you to hell. Only those who are washed with the blood of Christ will have their sins Removed. A homosexual ( or any sinner ) who believes what they do is not a sin can not be washed by the blood of Christ because of a lack of faith.

spunkloaf
04-09-2013, 06:39 PM
...I saw an article on FB about same-sex marriage (from my local FOX affiliate) and it bugs me when religious people say GOD loves everyone, including the gays...really?...here's what happened to sodom and gomorrah...well, in theory anyway:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml)

God has a plan, right?

But we have free will, right?

...But God has a plan, right?

This could make a person dizzy.

Let me just put this into perspective. I do believe that there is, in a sense, a plan for everything. Every celestial event, from back holes to supernovas down to planets and living organisms and their molecular makeup, follow an order. Things can be predicted because they follow the laws of physics. One can say that this is like God's plan.

It's hard to make room for free will in this sense because we are all governed by a plan.

If it's God's plan that somebody will turn out to be gay, like myself, then how can he hate his own creation?

Do you think I would choose to be straight and make an easier life for myself in this world without having to put up with people who say God doesn't love gay people? I would in a heartbeat. It doesn't work like that. I didn't choose this life, it happened, and I don't know why. I wish it didn't, but I have to live with it because it's the only life I have. I'm not even "out" to most people in my life because I don't like it to be something that defines me.

You don't have to understand what it's like to be gay, or you'd probably be gay. I don't understand what it's like to be straight, or I'd be straight. If a man understood what it was like to be a woman, he would be a woman. Vice-versa. We are what we are. Some things simply cannot change.

I would hate living in a world where God would end up casting me into the depths of hell because of something I am incapable of changing. Are you able to understand this conundrum at all? Do you believe gay people are just here to make life miserable for themselves and everybody else? Who could live like that?

Mister D
04-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Did you have to, Spunk?

Edit: My apologies. It was Dictator.

spunkloaf
04-09-2013, 06:56 PM
God does not hate anyone, God loved Hittler when he was alive. God loves the homosexual, child rapist, the child murderer, the racist and all kinds of sinners. Just because God loves you does not mean he will not send you to hell. Only those who are washed with the blood of Christ will have their sins Removed. A homosexual ( or any sinner ) who believes what they do is not a sin can not be washed by the blood of Christ because of a lack of faith.

So...homosexuals were damned from the beginning. Not because they "choose" to be gay, but because God's plan doesn't allow them to have the faith in order to be saved from being gay. I was gonna say, "I can be washed in the blood of Christ to cure my homosexuality? Sign me up!" But I inherently lack faith, you say, so God can't help me.

People such as yourself are the reason I used to harbor hatred in my heart towards Christianity. My faith in and witness to the goodness of mankind has eradicated that hatred and I try to love everybody. You could say that God has cured me in a sense. Life is so much better not worrying about what other people think, and spreading a message of love and good will. I hope you can find it in your heart to live similarly. God bless.

spunkloaf
04-09-2013, 06:58 PM
Did you have to, Spunk?

Edit: My apologies. It was Dictator.

I'm trying to understand things. Seems like everybody has an answer. I want to know what it is. God help me.

Peter1469
04-09-2013, 07:07 PM
I'm trying to understand things. Seems like everybody has an answer. I want to know what it is. God help me.

No. Homos weren't damned at all. The entire unclean thing was abut the nephilim. It was the mix of the fallen angles with man that caused a problem, no homos. It was genetics. You are safe, Spunk.

Chris
04-09-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm trying to understand things. Seems like everybody has an answer. I want to know what it is. God help me.

There are no answers, only questions.

But then I don't believe things--the universe, like, everything--was planned, designed, and when man tries to do that, fails.

Of course there's always 42.

Greenridgeman
04-10-2013, 08:25 AM
All true Christians who fear God and obey His Commandments know well what God warns in KJV Bible dealing with sin called homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22. Romans 1:25-27,32. Jude 1:7. 2 Peter 2:12-13.


If it bothered God that much, I think He would have put it in the 10 Commandments.

Chris
04-10-2013, 08:48 AM
Leviticus 18:22 -- about temple ritual
Romans 1:25-27,32 -- about unnatural acts and needs to be read in context of Romans 2: 1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."
Jude 1:7 -- not about homosexuality
2 Peter 2:12-13 -- not about homosexuality

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 01:19 PM
God has a plan, right? Yes

But we have free will, right? Yes

...But God has a plan, right?

This could make a person dizzy. Ok, no one said it was easy to understand. God ways are not easy for man to understand.

Let me just put this into perspective. I do believe that there is, in a sense, a plan for everything. Every celestial event, from back holes to supernovas down to planets and living organisms and their molecular makeup, follow an order. Things can be predicted because they follow the laws of physics. One can say that this is like God's plan. Yes, I agree, God made physics and gave it it's laws.

It's hard to make room for free will in this sense because we are all governed by a plan. Not really. Because God gave us free will to break away from his will or plan. By doing so we bring on ourselves all kinds of problems.

If it's God's plan that somebody will turn out to be gay, like myself, then how can he hate his own creation? It was never God's plan that someone become gay.

Do you think I would choose to be straight and make an easier life for myself in this world without having to put up with people who say God doesn't love gay people? I would in a heartbeat. It doesn't work like that. I didn't choose this life, it happened, and I don't know why. I wish it didn't, but I have to live with it because it's the only life I have. I'm not even "out" to most people in my life because I don't like it to be something that defines me. Someone maybe predisposed to being Gay just like being predisposed to being an alcoholic or being a murderer. You do not have to act on your predisposion, you have free will.

You don't have to understand what it's like to be gay, or you'd probably be gay. I don't understand what it's like to be straight, or I'd be straight. If a man understood what it was like to be a woman, he would be a woman. Vice-versa. We are what we are. Some things simply cannot change. It is the behavior that is a sin. Again you do not have to act on the behavior. People can change if they want to.

I would hate living in a world where God would end up casting me into the depths of hell because of something I am incapable of changing. Are you able to understand this conundrum at all? Do you believe gay people are just here to make life miserable for themselves and everybody else? Who could live like that? Again God cast people in hell for not being washed by the blood of Christ and not doing the will of God.

jillian
04-12-2013, 01:25 PM
...I saw an article on FB about same-sex marriage (from my local FOX affiliate) and it bugs me when religious people say GOD loves everyone, including the gays...really?...here's what happened to sodom and gomorrah...well, in theory anyway:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/cultures/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml)

do you think G-d does anything imperfectly?

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 01:34 PM
So...homosexuals were damned from the beginning. Not because they "choose" to be gay, but because God's plan doesn't allow them to have the faith in order to be saved from being gay. I was gonna say, "I can be washed in the blood of Christ to cure my homosexuality? Sign me up!" But I inherently lack faith, you say, so God can't help me.


All sin was damned from the beginning. You can't by forgiven of sin that you refuse to acknowledge as sin.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 01:41 PM
People such as yourself are the reason I used to harbor hatred in my heart towards Christianity. My faith in and witness to the goodness of mankind has eradicated that hatred and I try to love everybody. You could say that God has cured me in a sense. Life is so much better not worrying about what other people think, and spreading a message of love and good will. I hope you can find it in your heart to live similarly. God bless.

I can't help who you hate or why. I teach truth as I see it from the Bible, I'm sorry if that upsets someone, but I'm still going to believe what the Bible teaches.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 01:44 PM
If it bothered God that much, I think He would have put it in the 10 Commandments.

He did.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 01:47 PM
do you think G-d does anything imperfectly?

If Gd is God then no.

Chris
04-12-2013, 01:49 PM
All sin was damned from the beginning. You can't by forgiven of sin that you refuse to acknowledge as sin.

It that's the case then all was predetermined and thus there can be no free will and without free will to choose there can be no sin. Truth cannot violate the logical law of noncontradiction.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 02:51 PM
It that's the case then all was predetermined and thus there can be no free will and without free will to choose there can be no sin. Truth cannot violate the logical law of noncontradiction.

With all do respect, God is not confined to your definition of what free will is and neither am I. In my belief system there is a predetermined plan that includes man's free will.

Chris
04-12-2013, 03:22 PM
With all do respect, God is not confined to your definition of what free will is and neither am I. In my belief system there is a predetermined plan that includes man's free will.

Then God is not confined by anything you, or I, or anyone, such as the writers of the Bible, say about him. He is unknowable.

I won't argue that belief/faith lies outside reason, it does.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 05:45 PM
Then God is not confined by anything you, or I, or anyone, such as the writers of the Bible, say about him. He is unknowable.

I won't argue that belief/faith lies outside reason, it does.


Good point, in some ways your right and others your wrong.

1st point - God is unknowable, unless he reveals himself to man.

2nd point- there are about 40 writers of the Bible, but only one Author.

3rd point- that author ( God ) has chosen to use the Bible to reveal himself to the world.

4th point reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.

Conley
04-12-2013, 06:14 PM
...because god doesn't love gays (people that live in "sodomy") otherwise he wouldn't nuke sodom and gomorrah...


Kabuki Joe

This might come as a shock to you but I've heard wild stories about married dudes having sex with their wives and sometimes things get slippery, wrong hole wham bam whaddya know. Sometimes it's even intentional. Yeah, I'm talking bout the Hershey Highway. I know, CRAZY. I guess God doesn't love straight married couples who fool around in the bedroom either.

There are so many stupid reasons offered up to bash gays and this whole sodomy things has to be about one of the stupidest...

jillian
04-12-2013, 06:17 PM
If Gd is God then no.

Then His gay children are perfect, too.

Chris
04-12-2013, 06:46 PM
Good point, in some ways your right and others your wrong.

1st point - God is unknowable, unless he reveals himself to man.

2nd point- there are about 40 writers of the Bible, but only one Author.

3rd point- that author ( God ) has chosen to use the Bible to reveal himself to the world.

4th point reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.

In some ways I'm right and some ways wrong...according to your personal beliefs.


God is unknowable, unless he reveals himself to man.

(A) Assume God perfect, how can something perfect reveal perfection to imperfect man?


there are about 40 writers of the Bible, but only one Author.

(B) There are about 40 authors who believed they were inspired. Return to (A).


that author ( God ) has chosen to use the Bible to reveal himself to the world.

I understand you believe this, but you also understand you do not know this. Return to (A) and (B).


reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.

Explain what you could possibly mean by that. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Just isn't any reason there, just hope, faith.


Here, explain in a reasonable way why you put faith in faith.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 07:13 PM
This might come as a shock to you but I've heard wild stories about married dudes having sex with their wives and sometimes things get slippery, wrong hole wham bam whaddya know. Sometimes it's even intentional. Yeah, I'm talking bout the Hershey Highway. I know, CRAZY. I guess God doesn't love straight married couples who fool around in the bedroom either.

There are so many stupid reasons offered up to bash gays and this whole sodomy things has to be about one of the stupidest...

Sodomy may not be a sin but the act of homosexuality is. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of sex in the wrong body part, but because of Homosexual acts.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 07:18 PM
Then His gay children are perfect, too.

Well using your logic then God's child molesting children are also perfect.

Conley
04-12-2013, 07:18 PM
Sodomy may not be a sin but the act of homosexuality is. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of sex in the wrong body part, but because of Homosexual acts.

Ahhh, ok. Thanks. If I can ask...do you mind clarifying "the act of homosexuality". I don't really know what that means.

jillian
04-12-2013, 07:26 PM
Well using your logic then God's child molesting children are also perfect.

interestingly, people aren't generally born as child molesters. that normally comes from having been molested themselves.

... as opposed to homosexuals who are born what they are.

unless you think you wake up every day and make a decision not to be gay.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 07:39 PM
Chris:

What Law is there that says perfection can't reveal itself to imperfection?

Neather one of us can prove we are right to the other.


Using your so called reason you can't prove your argument. I also using my faith can't prove my argument.


Your reason is only your system of belief based on what ever you base it on.


My faith is also a system of belief based on what I see as proof coming from the Bible. So reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 07:47 PM
Ahhh, ok. Thanks. If I can ask...do you mind clarifying "the act of homosexuality". I don't really know what that means.

It is a sexual act between people of the same sex.

Conley
04-12-2013, 07:57 PM
It is a sexual act between people of the same sex.

But I mean like swordfighting, BJs, what exactly? And that's not even getting into lesbians. How does the Bible define the sexual act? It seems like you're certain of this so if you could tell us all exactly what is allowed and what isn't it would probably save a lot of souls.

Chris
04-12-2013, 08:06 PM
Sodomy may not be a sin but the act of homosexuality is. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of sex in the wrong body part, but because of Homosexual acts.

No, that was sex with angels. The story is very explicit about this.

Genesis 19

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.


Jude 1:7 reference to "going after strange flesh" has to do with angels.


There is nothing in the text of the story at all having to do with homosexuality.

TheDictator
04-12-2013, 08:08 PM
interestingly, people aren't generally born as child molesters. that normally comes from having been molested themselves.

... as opposed to homosexuals who are born what they are.

unless you think you wake up every day and make a decision not to be gay.

Not True, It has not been proven that a person is born gay.

There are research studies that show that there may be a predisposion to behaviors like Alcoholism, homosexuality, murder, molestation, and so on in a person's DNA. There are lot of cases where people molest children and they have not been molested themselves so that does not fly with me.

Conley
04-12-2013, 08:40 PM
Not True, It has not been proven that a person is born gay.

There are research studies that show that there may be a predisposion to behaviors like Alcoholism, homosexuality, murder, molestation, and so on in a person's DNA. There are lot of cases where people molest children and they have not been molested themselves so that does not fly with me.

Do you recognize a difference between pedophilia, murderers, molesters and consenting adults?

roadmaster
04-12-2013, 08:53 PM
Do you recognize a difference between pedophilia, murderers, molesters and consenting adults? And some can be all three. Were they born that way too?

Conley
04-12-2013, 09:13 PM
And some can be all three. Were they born that way too?

Are they all born in God's image?

roadmaster
04-12-2013, 09:39 PM
Are they all born in God's image? Yes, but they have free will, like all of us. He came here, died for us, brought His message, what more could He do? But still till our last breaths He will be there with His arms open wide. My beliefs tell me He is just to the end if a person call on Him.

Mister D
04-12-2013, 09:40 PM
Gonna drop my two cents but I'm going to avoid the homo stuff. I listen to Wham and Boy George...I just don't want to deal with that shit. So I guess I'm a little off topic but you are talking about the "image of God". As I understand it, in the ancient Near East the clear distinction we make between form and function didn't exist. In the context of Genesis, to be in the image of God meant to be a steward of the Earth not to be in the physical likeness of God.

Chris
04-12-2013, 10:15 PM
Chris:

What Law is there that says perfection can't reveal itself to imperfection?

Neather one of us can prove we are right to the other.


Using your so called reason you can't prove your argument. I also using my faith can't prove my argument.


Your reason is only your system of belief based on what ever you base it on.


My faith is also a system of belief based on what I see as proof coming from the Bible. So reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.


What Law is there that says perfection can't reveal itself to imperfection?

What do you mean, what law? Just simple common sense sense an imperfect being cannot know or understand perfection.


Neather one of us can prove we are right to the other.

I'm just pointing out contradictions in what you say.


Using your so called reason you can't prove your argument.

Which argument is that?


Your reason is only your system of belief based on what ever you base it on.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense.

Reason is just what it is, the application of logic. For example, as stated earlier, to say sins are predetermined and we have free will is logically contradictory. Something true cannot be contradictory.

And no faith cannot make it so.

Reason is not something to believe in, it's simply a tool.


My faith is also a system of belief based on what I see as proof coming from the Bible.

Proofs are constructed not with faith but with reason, logic. If you could prove God then you'd have no need for faith, and then you couldn't be saved.

Faith and reason are not two sides the same coin.

They are wholly different things.


Please note that I am in no way denigrating faith and elevating reason. Not trying to do that at all. Just trying to use words carefully, meaningfully.

spunkloaf
04-13-2013, 06:41 PM
Well using your logic then God's child molesting children are also perfect.

There are no factions of people who see child molestation as an ok thing though. Everything comes down to what is acceptable among people. In a sense, God sits back and watches. Even when children are raped and killed. It is left to us to decide what is right and wrong.

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 07:04 PM
No, that was sex with angels. The story is very explicit about this.

Jude 1:7 reference to "going after strange flesh" has to do with angels.

There is nothing in the text of the story at all having to do with homosexuality.

There is a problem with your statement. They never had sex with an angel.

Also the word Angel in this text is the Hebrew word "Malak" that means messenger or prophet. In other text a deferent word is use that means heavenly being. The angels of Sodom and Gomorrah were just men give power to destoy.

In Jude, the words "strange flesh" The Greek word is "heteros" that means "other" and "sarz" that means human nature. The English word we use for this is perversion.

I'm sorry but it is talking about Homosexuality.

The KJV is not the best version to study from, it's out dated, has a lot of mistakes in translation.

spunkloaf
04-13-2013, 07:19 PM
There is a problem with your statement. They never had sex with an angel.

Also the word Angel in this text is the Hebrew word "Malak" that means messenger or prophet. In other text a deferent word is use that means heavenly being. The angels of Sodom and Gomorrah were just men give power to destoy.

In Jude, the words "strange flesh" The Greek word is "heteros" that means "other" and "sarz" that means human nature. The English word we use for this is perversion.

I'm sorry but it is talking about Homosexuality.

The KJV is not the best version to study from, it's out dated, has a lot of mistakes in translation.

What if your view is a perversion? Since there is no way to know for sure, how could you be so presumptuous to say it is the truth?

It would be fine if you were dealing with matters that did not step on other people's toes, but in this case you are.

The Bible was written by man, and therefore the author is man. It makes no reference to homosexuality being a sin to begin with. Homophobia has brought you to that assumption, not the word of God.

spunkloaf
04-13-2013, 07:30 PM
The unmitigated audacity that people have to make religion and heaven exclusive is a crime against God in and of itself.

Chris
04-13-2013, 08:04 PM
There is a problem with your statement. They never had sex with an angel.

Also the word Angel in this text is the Hebrew word "Malak" that means messenger or prophet. In other text a deferent word is use that means heavenly being. The angels of Sodom and Gomorrah were just men give power to destoy.

In Jude, the words "strange flesh" The Greek word is "heteros" that means "other" and "sarz" that means human nature. The English word we use for this is perversion.

I'm sorry but it is talking about Homosexuality.

The KJV is not the best version to study from, it's out dated, has a lot of mistakes in translation.

It also doesn't say they engaged in homosexuality. You just argued yourself into a corner.

But they lusted after strange flesh, angel, for that and lack of hospitality, they were punished.



Also the word Angel in this text is the Hebrew word "Malak" that means messenger or prophet.

They were angels. From wikipedia:


"Mal'ak (also spelled Malak, Melek) is the Semitic word for "angel" (Arabic: ملاك‎, malak; Hebrew מַלְאָךְ; Ge'ez መልዐክ, mal`āk; Aramaic מלאך). The plural of malak ("angels") is ملائكه malaa`ikah in Arabic, מַלְאָכִים malakim in Hebrew, and መላዕክት mala`ikt in Ge'ez.

In Arabic, it is also used as a given name (both male and female)."


In Jude, the words "strange flesh" The Greek word is "heteros" that means "other" and "sarz" that means human nature. The English word we use for this is perversion.

With strange flash, angels.


I'm sorry but it is talking about Homosexuality.

Provide a smidgen of evidence.


The KJV is not the best version to study from, it's out dated, has a lot of mistakes in translation.

Name your poison. I have 4 or 5 Bibles and 2 Tanakhs. How about we stick to the Jewish Bible and Jewish interpretation, it is their holy scripture after all.

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 08:35 PM
There are no factions of people who see child molestation as an ok thing though. Everything comes down to what is acceptable among people. In a sense, God sits back and watches. Even when children are raped and killed. It is left to us to decide what is right and wrong.

Are you kidding me? There millions of people who believe that sex with a child is not wrong. More than 1/2 the countries of the World do not have laws against it.

There is an org. that lobbies congress the make it legal again like it was for 1000's of years.

As for God it is obvious that you know nothing about him.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 08:36 PM
Does God only love those who don't sin? How many people would that be?

Heaven must be a very sparsely populated place, if that's the case.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 08:44 PM
Does God only love those who don't sin? How many people would that be?

Heaven must be a very sparsely populated place, if that's the case.

Jesus is the only man who has never sinned. :wink:

God even loves blacks. :rolleyes:

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 08:53 PM
What if your view is a perversion? Since there is no way to know for sure, how could you be so presumptuous to say it is the truth?

It would be fine if you were dealing with matters that did not step on other people's toes, but in this case you are.

The Bible was written by man, and therefore the author is man. It makes no reference to homosexuality being a sin to begin with. Homophobia has brought you to that assumption, not the word of God.

Yes the Bible was written by men but the author is God. The Bible has no error. What is presumptuous is people who think they know more or better than God.


Reference to homosexuality: Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1: 26 -27, 1 Corinthians 6:9

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 08:56 PM
Jesus is the only man who has never sinned. :wink:

God even loves blacks. :rolleyes:

God is far more loving than I am.

Chloe
04-13-2013, 08:58 PM
Yes the Bible was written by men but the author is God. The Bible has no error. What is presumptuous is people who think they know more or better than God.


Reference to homosexuality: Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1: 26 -27, 1 Corinthians 6:9

Couldnt it be argued that many parts of the bible are just examples of allegory and metaphor mixed with history and interpretation?

Peter1469
04-13-2013, 08:59 PM
yes

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 09:03 PM
Chris: I never said that malak (Angel) was not a word used for Angel, it is not the word use for heavenly being.

Elohiym ( Angel ) is the word used for heavenly being.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:09 PM
Couldnt it be argued that many parts of the bible are just examples of allegory and metaphor mixed with history and interpretation?

Couldn't it be argued that the spiritual principles of the Bible are clear, concise and timeless?

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 09:09 PM
Couldnt it be argued that many parts of the bible are just examples of allegory and metaphor mixed with history and interpretation?

Could it be argued that the Bible is the very Word of God, and is to be followed by what it says, and not what people want it to say ?

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:10 PM
God is far more loving than I am.
What do you mean exactly?

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 09:11 PM
couldn't it be argued that the spiritual principals of the bible are clear, concise and timeless?

yes

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:14 PM
What do you mean exactly?

I would never presume that I am equal to God's level of loving and compassion. I certainly have my limitations.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:18 PM
I would never presume that I am equal to God's level of loving and compassion. I certainly have my limitations.
Such as?

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:23 PM
Such as?

Too many to list. That's why I'm a human and God's God.

Where in Ohio? I grew up there.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Too many to list. That's why I'm a human and God's God.

Where in Ohio? I grew up there.

NE

I wasn't trying to grill you, I just heard you make a comment in another thread about blacks. I thought maybe you had a problem with them.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:36 PM
NE

Me too. Then, I mean, not now.


I wasn't trying to grill you, I just heard you make a comment in another thread about blacks. I thought maybe you had a problem with them.

I have a problem with their culture, their crime, their illiteracy, their crappy music, their drain on society and their demand for special privileges. [I'm sure I could think of more things if you want]

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:41 PM
Me too. Then, I mean, not now.



I have a problem with their culture, their crime, their illiteracy, their crappy music, their drain on society and their demand for special privileges. [I'm sure I could think of more things if you want]
Hmmmm, I wasn't aware "they" all had one culture, were all criminals, couldn't read, all listened to the same music, and that none of them were self sufficient. Who knew?

Chloe
04-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Could it be argued that the Bible is the very Word of God, and is to be followed by what it says, and not what people want it to say ?

Sure anything can be argued but really we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written, and plus which bible or we talking about exactly? The Hebrew bible, the Christian bible?

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:51 PM
Sure anything can be argued but really we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written, and plus which bible or we talking about exactly? The Hebrew bible, the Christian bible?
Very common misconception. I'm surprised a smart person like yourself would believe that malarkey. Of course, I used to say that when I was your age too. :D

Chloe
04-13-2013, 09:52 PM
Very common misconception. I'm surprised a smart person like yourself would believe that malarkey. Of course, I used to say that when I was your age too. :D

What do I believe? Sorry I'm not following

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:55 PM
Hmmmm, I wasn't aware "they" all had one culture, were all criminals, couldn't read, all listened to the same music, and that none of them were self sufficient. Who knew?


You're not aware of black culture?

Commit murder and other violent crimes 7 times more often than whites per capita.
Give birth out of wedlock 75% of the time.
Drop out of school, join gangs, leach off productive members of society, refuse to work, do drugs.....on and on....

countryboy
04-13-2013, 09:57 PM
You're not aware of black culture?

Commit murder and other violent crimes 7 times more often than whites per capita.
Give birth out of wedlock 75% of the time.
Drop out of school, join gangs, leach off productive members of society, refuse to work, do drugs.....on and on....

No, I wasn't aware that all blacks did that as a group.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:58 PM
Sure anything can be argued but really we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written,

Ancient manuscripts of the Bible have been discovered.



and plus which bible or we talking about exactly? The Hebrew bible, the Christian bible?


Are you suggesting that one of them condones homosexuality.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 09:59 PM
No, I wasn't aware that all blacks did that as a group.

I never said as much. Are you black?

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:01 PM
Ancient manuscripts of the Bible have been discovered.





Are you suggesting that one of them condones homosexuality.

No I'm just saying that it can be interpretated many different ways and that it's practically impossible to follow every rule or dictate in the bible to the letter. For example there are 613 commandments in my faith. There's no way to follow each one and a lot of them no longer apply to modern life. The same can be said for a lot of the stories in the bible

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:05 PM
No I'm just saying that it can be interpretated many different ways and that it's practically impossible to follow every rule or dictate in the bible to the letter. For example there are 613 commandments in my faith. There's no way to follow each one and a lot of them no longer apply to modern life. The same can be said for a lot of the stories in the bible


In my faith, we were delivered from the tyranny of those 613 commandments.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:06 PM
No I'm just saying that it can be interpretated many different ways and that it's practically impossible to follow every rule or dictate in the bible to the letter. For example there are 613 commandments in my faith. There's no way to follow each one and a lot of them no longer apply to modern life. The same can be said for a lot of the stories in the bible


Ah, if you want to simplify your life, convert to Christianity. We only have 2 Commandments.

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:09 PM
In my faith, we were delivered from the tyranny of those 613 commandments.

Nice, atleast you embraced the most important 10, right?

countryboy
04-13-2013, 10:10 PM
Ah, if you want to simplify your life, convert to Christianity. We only have 2 Commandments.
Uhhhhh.....what? This ought to be good.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 10:13 PM
I never said as much. Are you black?
You referred to "black culture" not, some blacks, not thugs, etc.

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:16 PM
In my faith, we were delivered from the tyranny of those 613 commandments.

FYI me being told that I'm going to suffer for eternity because I don't believe what you believe about Jesus is pretty tyrannical in my opinion, but I don't want to start a holy war of rhetoric on here :)

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:16 PM
Uhhhhh.....what? This ought to be good.


34But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew. 22:34-40

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:16 PM
Nice, atleast you embraced the most important 10, right?

Love my neighbor as I love myself, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour, and the only path to Redemption and God.

He condensed it down to two, as the Spirit leads me to read it.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:17 PM
FYI me being told that I'm going to suffer for eternity because I don't believe what you believe about Jesus is pretty tyrannical in my opinion, but I don't want to start a holy war of rhetoric on here :)

I have made no attempt to convert you.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 10:19 PM
34But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew. 22:34-40
Oh great, another cherry picking "Christian".

Perhaps you've heard of the other Ten Commandments?

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:20 PM
You referred to "black culture" not, some blacks, not thugs, etc.


Thugs, murder, rape, violent crime, lethargy, ignorance, racism, leaching off society, illiteracy, jive music, bearing children out of wedlock, etc. etc. are cornerstones of black culture.

Are you black?

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:20 PM
I have made no attempt to convert you.

I know

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Oh great, another cherry picking "Christian".

Perhaps you've heard of the other Ten Commandments?


Cherry picking? I posted the words of Jesus. You know, the guy for whom Christianity was invented. Jesus? Ever heard of him????

countryboy
04-13-2013, 10:22 PM
What do I believe? Sorry I'm not following

This


.....we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written.....

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:22 PM
Love my neighbor as I love myself, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour, and the only path to Redemption and God.

He condensed it down to two, as the Spirit leads me to read it.

That's Christian belief but I respect that

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 10:22 PM
Sure anything can be argued but really we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written, and plus which bible or we talking about exactly? The Hebrew bible, the Christian bible?

Both.

We have over 5000 copies of the Bible dating from 800 BC to 400 AD. Guess what they all say the exacty the same thing. There is no error in God Word.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Could it be argued that the Bible is the very Word of God, and is to be followed by what it says, and not what people want it to say ?


It would be hard to argue that, as there are so many versions of the Bible.

I like KJV, Baptist church I attend uses some dumbed down Bible for idiots.

Arguements can start right there over what is actually the word of God.

To me, the word of God is how the Spirit leads you to interpret whichever version you are using.

Without the Spirit, you are just reading a book.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Both.

We have over 5000 copies of the Bible dating from 800 BC to 400 AD. Guess what they all say the exacty the same thing. There is no error in God Word.



How do you figure. There are Bibles with Lost Gospels, banned Gospels, Bibles in a multitude of languages, and Bibles of many different translations within single languages.

There has never been one consistent unvaring Bible.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:27 PM
No I'm just saying that it can be interpretated many different ways and that it's practically impossible to follow every rule or dictate in the bible to the letter. For example there are 613 commandments in my faith. There's no way to follow each one and a lot of them no longer apply to modern life. The same can be said for a lot of the stories in the bible


You should read Paul's Epistles. He explains how were are free from the 'Law'.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:29 PM
That's Christian belief but I respect that


And I cannot read the Old Testament and move on the the New without seeing the latter is the fulfillment of the former.

You do not see it that way, I must respect that.

No sense going into it any deeper than that.

countryboy
04-13-2013, 10:30 PM
Cherry picking? I posted the words of Jesus. You know, the guy for whom Christianity was invented. Jesus? Ever heard of him????
Whatever dude, you know what I mean. Are you implying the Ten Commandments aren't relevant?

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:31 PM
You should read Paul's Epistles. He explains how were are free from the 'Law'.

With all due respect it's a Christian argument explaining a Christian justification for being "free" from Jewish law. That's all it really is to me, sorry.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:31 PM
You should read Paul's Epistles. He explains how were are free from the 'Law'.


Paul is a hard read!

We are free from the tryanny of the letter of the law, we are not free from the spirit of the law, which is to love your brother as you love yourself.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:32 PM
Whatever dude, you know what I mean. Are you implying the Ten Commandments aren't relevant?

Did you read the passage from Matthew that I posted? Read it again. If you follow those 2, you won't need the other 8.

This isn't new information or some fringe interpretation of the Gospels, this theology is 2000 years old.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:32 PM
Whatever dude, you know what I mean. Are you implying the Ten Commandments aren't relevant?


If you are loving your neighbor as you love yourself, you almost have to be obeying the Ten Commandments.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:36 PM
With all due respect it's a Christian argument explaining a Christian justification for being "free" from Jewish law. That's all it really is to me, sorry.


I will remind you that both Jesus and Paul were Jews. Have you ever heard the term, 'Dispensation'?

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:37 PM
If you are loving your neighbor as you love yourself, you almost have to be obeying the Ten Commandments.

That is precisely what Jesus was teaching. But you must love God first.

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:43 PM
I will remind you that both Jesus and Paul were Jews. Have you ever heard the term, 'Dispensation'?

Yes I know that they were Jews, that's not really the point though. I don't want to get too deep into this though because I don't want to risk offending you or getting into a long debate over something we will never agree on. To me Jesus was just a rabbi and probably a good guy who claimed to be something that he wasn't. Beyond that we can discuss things but getting me to read and accept words that I don't find to be valid is not going to work on me I'm sorry.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:46 PM
Yes I know that they were Jews, that's not really the point though. I don't want to get too deep into this though because I don't want to risk offending you or getting into a long debate over something we will never agree on. To me Jesus was just a rabbi and probably a good guy who claimed to be something that he wasn't. Beyond that we can discuss things but getting me to read and accept words that I don't find to be valid is not going to work on me I'm sorry.



"something we will need agree on."

Freudian slip????


We'll pray for ya!

(obligatory "lol" here for usual jerks)

Chloe
04-13-2013, 10:48 PM
"something we will need agree on."

Freudian slip????


We'll pray for ya!

(obligatory "lol" here for usual jerks)

I meant "never" :)

my iPhone autocorrected it by accident. It's fixed now

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 10:51 PM
I meant "never" :)

my iPhone autocorrected it by accident. It's fixed now


You do see the humor though.

At least I hope so.

And Freud, well, even in his brilliance he never concieved of iPhones, internet, autocorrect.......!

jillian
04-13-2013, 10:53 PM
Chris:

What Law is there that says perfection can't reveal itself to imperfection?

Neather one of us can prove we are right to the other.


Using your so called reason you can't prove your argument. I also using my faith can't prove my argument.


Your reason is only your system of belief based on what ever you base it on.


My faith is also a system of belief based on what I see as proof coming from the Bible. So reason and faith are just deferent sides to the same coin.

there is no "proof" in the bible... there is only faith. and that's certainly fair. but given that it is solely based on our individual faith, perhaps we'd do best to leave the moral judgments about things that exist between two consenting adults to each of us and our maker.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 10:56 PM
Yes I know that they were Jews, that's not really the point though.

It's a very important point.



I don't want to get too deep into this though because I don't want to risk offending you

Baby Doll, I am immune to being offended. Let 'er rip!



or getting into a long debate over something we will never agree on.

That is kind of the point of posting on message boards.



To me Jesus was just a rabbi and probably a good guy who claimed to be something that he wasn't.

What did he claim to be?



Beyond that we can discuss things but getting me to read and accept words that I don't find to be valid is not going to work on me I'm sorry.

So what do you find valid and what do you not? And why?

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 10:56 PM
It would be hard to argue that, as there are so many versions of the Bible.

I like KJV, Baptist church I attend uses some dumbed down Bible for idiots.

Arguements can start right there over what is actually the word of God.

To me, the word of God is how the Spirit leads you to interpret whichever version you are using.

Without the Spirit, you are just reading a book.

Who cares how many versions of the Bible there are today. The Bible in Hebrew for the Old Testament and the Greek for the New Testament is the inerrant Word of God.

The Holy Spirit is a being and not the Word of God. Jesus Christ was called the Word of God when he was on the Earth.

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 11:05 PM
How do you figure. There are Bibles with Lost Gospels, banned Gospels, Bibles in a multitude of languages, and Bibles of many different translations within single languages.

There has never been one consistent unvaring Bible.


So what, There is and has been only one Word of God for 1000's of years. Just because there are other books and other translations does not take away from the original. We have copies of the Original and what it says.

BillyBob
04-13-2013, 11:08 PM
So what, There is and has been only one Word of God for 1000's of years. Just because there are other books and other translations does not take away from the original. We have copies of the Original and what it says.

The New Testament isn't the Word of God?

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 11:13 PM
So what, There is and has been only one Word of God for 1000's of years. Just because there are other books and other translations does not take away from the original. We have copies of the Original and what it says.


Link to "copies of the Original"?

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 11:21 PM
there is no "proof" in the bible... there is only faith. and that's certainly fair. but given that it is solely based on our individual faith, perhaps we'd do best to leave the moral judgments about things that exist between two consenting adults to each of us and our maker.

That is not true, there are all kinds of "proofs" in the Bible. The Bible is not just a book of faith it is a book of facts also.

Now about judgement if that is what you what to do so be it, but Christians are commanded by God to make moral Judgements ---1 Corinthians 5:9 - 6:5.

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 11:25 PM
The New Testament isn't the Word of God?

Well I say it is, so I guess we disagree.

TheDictator
04-13-2013, 11:32 PM
Link to "copies of the Original"?

There are over 5000 copies of the original work dating from 800BC to 400AD DO YOU OWN RESEARCH. You could start with the Dead Sea Scrolls some of them were written before Jesus Christ and about the same time.

Greenridgeman
04-13-2013, 11:43 PM
There are over 5000 copies of the original work dating from 800BC to 400AD DO YOU OWN RESEARCH. You could start with the Dead Sea Scrolls some of them were written before Jesus Christ and about the same time.


That is one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

First, define "the original work".

Secondly, there are thousands of copies of different books, there is not standardization of the New Testament until Constantine.

I have no idea when/if Jews consider any one version of the Old Testament as "the original".

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:20 AM
Chris: I never said that malak (Angel) was not a word used for Angel, it is not the word use for heavenly being.

Elohiym ( Angel ) is the word used for heavenly being.

Ah, so now in your interpretation of the Bible angels are not heavenly beings?

Hey, dictator, all I did was read the Bible straight for what it actually says. I do not try to impose meaning. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality. If as you argue earlier they didn't have sex with the angels then the story is simply about the wrath of God toward those inhospitable to his messengers and message.


"Elohiym"

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew word for God there is Elohiym.

So by your thinking God didn't create everything, angels did.

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:29 AM
Sure anything can be argued but really we are talking about a book that has been translated so many times over thousands of years that you can't possibly think that it is exactly the same as the first time it was written, and plus which bible or we talking about exactly? The Hebrew bible, the Christian bible?


Very common misconception. I'm surprised a smart person like yourself would believe that malarkey. Of course, I used to say that when I was your age too. :D


What do I believe? Sorry I'm not following

Countryboy, have you answered this? Can you explain how imperfect man can communicate a perfect message?

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:32 AM
Who cares how many versions of the Bible there are today. The Bible in Hebrew for the Old Testament and the Greek for the New Testament is the inerrant Word of God.

The Holy Spirit is a being and not the Word of God. Jesus Christ was called the Word of God when he was on the Earth.

Same question--which you ignored earlier: How can imperfect men possibly write God's perfect message, and then imperfect men read and understand a perfect message. Consider your interpretation that Elohiym means angels which would mean Gen 1:1 says angels created everything.

countryboy
04-14-2013, 09:47 AM
Countryboy, have you answered this? Can you explain how imperfect man can communicate a perfect message?
Through God of course. But that's not what I was talking about. I didn't finish my thought because the respondent never responded back.

This explains it much better than I could, plus, I'm lazy. http://www.equip.org/articles/bible-reliability-m-a-p-s-to-guide-you-through-bible-reliability/


We have more than 14,000 manuscripts and fragments of the Old Testament of three main types: (a) approximately 10,000 from the Cairo Geniza (storeroom) find of 1897, dating back as far as about AD. 800; (b) about 190 from the Dead Sea Scrolls find of 1947-1955, the oldest dating back to 250-200 B.C.; and (c) at least 4,314 assorted other copies. The short time between the original Old Testament manuscripts (completed around 400 B.C.) and the first extensive copies (about 250 B.C.) — coupled with the more than 14,000 copies that have been discovered — ensures the trustworthiness of the Old Testament text. The earliest quoted verses (Num. 6:24-26) date from 800-700 B.C.
The same is true of the New Testament text. The abundance of textual witnesses is amazing. We possess over 5,300 manuscripts or portions of the (Greek) New Testament — almost 800 copied before A.D. 1000. The time between the original composition and our earliest copies is an unbelievably short 60 years or so. The overwhelming bibliographic reliability of the Bible is clearly evident.

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:53 AM
Through God of course. But that's not what I was talking about. I didn't finish my thought because the respondent never responded back.

This explains it much better than I could, plus, I'm lazy. http://www.equip.org/articles/bible-reliability-m-a-p-s-to-guide-you-through-bible-reliability/


Through God of course.

Sorry, that's not an answer. I'm not questioning God's perfection but man's perfection. How can imperfect man understand inspiration, an imperfect process, write it down, an imperfect process, and read and understand, an imperfect process?



The overwhelming bibliographic reliability of the Bible is clearly evident.

Yes, so? So we have some text that is accurate from the original. That says absolutely nothing about whether it's the word of God.

countryboy
04-14-2013, 09:58 AM
Sorry, that's not an answer. I'm not questioning God's perfection but man's perfection. How can imperfect man understand inspiration, an imperfect process, write it down, an imperfect process, and read and understand, an imperfect process?
Yes, but the argument @Chloe had was, a copy of a copy, of a copy, of a copy, is simply untrue. Bible translations are not translated from translated versions.




Yes, so? So we have some text that is accurate from the original. That says absolutely nothing about whether it's the word of God.

Nothing I can say to you will convince you of the accuracy of the Bible, and admittedly it does require a certain amount of faith. But people are under the mistaken impression that Christians follow a blind faith. As you can see, it is faith in evidence. No archaeological find has ever refuted anything in the Bible. I find that very compelling.

Chris
04-14-2013, 10:03 AM
Nothing I can say to you will convince you of the accuracy of the Bible, and admittedly it does require a certain amount of faith. But people are under the mistaken impression that Christians follow a blind faith. As you can see, it is faith in evidence. No archaeological find has ever refuted anything in the Bible. I find that very compelling.

What evidence? What evidence do you have that God speaks through the Bible, that the myriad authors got it right, that you got it right?

Hebrews 1:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So faith itself is evidence for faith? You have faith in faith?

countryboy
04-14-2013, 10:05 AM
What evidence? What evidence do you have that God speaks through the Bible, that the myriad authors got it right, that you got it right?

Hebrews 1:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So faith itself is evidence for faith? You have faith in faith?
Dude, I'm not going to get into a silly argument over semantics with you.

Manuscripts, archaeology, prophecy, statistics. :wink:

Oh yeah, and faith.

Chris
04-14-2013, 10:06 AM
Dude, I'm not going to get into a silly argument over semantics with you.

Prophecy. :wink:

If you don't have an answer, that's fine, just asking.

countryboy
04-14-2013, 10:08 AM
If you don't have an answer, that's fine, just asking.
I edited my post, and just because you don't like my answer doesn't make it any less of an answer.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 10:11 AM
Nothing I can say to you will convince you of the accuracy of the Bible, and admittedly it does require a certain amount of faith. But people are under the mistaken impression that Christians follow a blind faith. As you can see, it is faith in evidence. No archaeological find has ever refuted anything in the Bible. I find that very compelling.


I just get frustrated with the "not one word has changed" types, that can sit in a church with several different versions while the preacher is reading "love" and the KJV version reads "charity", and things like that.

Chris
04-14-2013, 10:18 AM
I edited my post, and just because you don't like my answer doesn't make it any less of an answer.

Let's not get emotional, it's not a matter of liking or disliking, it's a matter of asking you how you know the Bible is the word of God, that inspiration was perfectly inscribed, that the text is perfectly understood?



Manuscripts, archaeology, prophecy, statistics.

Those things establish the Bible as a genuine piece of text.

My question is how do you know that text is God's word, that inspiration was perfectly inscribed, that the text is perfectly understood?

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 10:24 AM
Let's not get emotional, it's not a matter of liking or disliking, it's a matter of asking you how you know the Bible is the word of God, that inspiration was perfectly inscribed, that the text is perfectly understood?




We know it is God's word by faith, the logical and scientific minded among us know it is NOT perfectly translated, and we rely on the Spirit to guide us in our readings and let us attain correct understanding.




Those things establish the Bible as a genuine piece of text.

My question is how do you know that text is God's word, that inspiration was perfectly inscribed, that the text is perfectly understood?

roadmaster
04-14-2013, 10:25 AM
Let's not get emotional, it's not a matter of liking or disliking, it's a matter of asking you how you know the Bible is the word of God, that inspiration was perfectly inscribed, that the text is perfectly understood?
That's like asking you how it is not. We know in our hearts and He has shown us things. This cannot be argued or debated.

Chris
04-14-2013, 10:29 AM
That's like asking you how it is not. We know in our hearts and He has shown us things. This cannot be argued or debated.

Except I didn't claim it is not.

You use "know" when you mean "believe". I agree, beliefs "cannot be argued or debated"--either way.

You or country or dictator or anyone else may believe the Bible says this or that, and you're certainly free to do so, but that "cannot be argued or debated" as true.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 10:33 AM
Except I didn't claim it is not.

You use "know" when you mean "believe". I agree, beliefs "cannot be argued or debated"--either way.

You or country or dictator or anyone else may believe the Bible says this or that, and you're certainly free to do so, but that "cannot be argued or debated" as true.

That's the point I'm trying to make.


You are wrong. We know in our hearts and minds because, as the poster says, we have been shown things, and have a relationship with Christ that is living and breathing.

We know the difference between know and believe.

We know what Christ has revealed to us, if, at times, to be polite, we call what we know, what we believe, well, sometimes that is just good manners.

Chris
04-14-2013, 10:36 AM
You are wrong. We know in our hearts and minds because, as the poster says, we have been shown things, and have a relationship with Christ that is living and breathing.

We know the difference between know and believe.

We know what Christ has revealed to us, if, at times, to be polite, we call what we know, what we believe, well, sometimes that is just good manners.

That's not knowledge, it's belief. It is what it is. I'm not denigrating it, in fact I think making belief to be something it's not--claiming it's the same as science, reason, knowledge--denigrates it.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 10:40 AM
That's not knowledge, it's belief. It is what it is. I'm not denigrating it, in fact I think making belief to be something it's not--claiming it's the same as science, reason, knowledge--denigrates it.


Your post is opinion, not fact.

I would die for what I know, would you die for what you believe in?

roadmaster
04-14-2013, 10:41 AM
Your post is opinion, not fact.

I would die for what I know, would you die for what you believe in?

So would I die for Him and saying His name. Unless one walks with Him, they don't understand.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 10:55 AM
So would I die for Him and saying His name. Unless one walks with Him, they don't understand.


It is not like it is about digs in the ME, old scrolls with varing versions of the same basic text, some once sacred, then banned, some accepted by some Christians today and not by others, pottery shards or ancient inscriptions.

It is about the basic truth and accuracy of the Bible from beginning to end, as revealed BY THE SPIRIT, through study of the Bible, and confirmed by the presence of and benefits of Christ in our lives.

That's how it works, it has to be REVEALED to you.

"Seek and you will find, ask and it shall be given" and all.

I favor KJV, do not hold it to be the absolute only accurate version.

BillyBob
04-14-2013, 10:58 AM
Here's what Paul says about fags:

Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Chris
04-14-2013, 11:00 AM
Your post is opinion, not fact.

I would die for what I know, would you die for what you believe in?

Words have meanings.

Knowledge and belief are not the same.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 11:06 AM
Words have meanings.

Knowledge and belief are not the same.


You know, you can quibble all you want, it only confirms what we KNOW as REVEALED.

Chris
04-14-2013, 11:24 AM
You know, you can quibble all you want, it only confirms what we KNOW as REVEALED.

Except if you truly knew it you could explain it.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 11:30 AM
Except if you truly knew it you could explain it.


I have explained it, if you truly wanted to know, you would understand it.

One can lead a horse to water, one cannot make him drink.

Chris
04-14-2013, 12:14 PM
I have explained it, if you truly wanted to know, you would understand it.

One can lead a horse to water, one cannot make him drink.

You've explained nothing. You've just used the word revelation where country used other words. And now you blame me for what you cannot do, explain what you claim to know but in fact believe.

Two sentences:


I know he's my brother.
I believe he's my brother.



The use of know there implies I can show, I can demonstrate, I can explain he's my brother. The use of believe there implies I can do none of those things but still accept he's my brother.

In fact if you knew what you claim as revealed to be true, you'd have no need to believe it, no need for faith, and then you couldn't be saved.

spunkloaf
04-14-2013, 04:09 PM
Are you kidding me? There millions of people who believe that sex with a child is not wrong. More than 1/2 the countries of the World do not have laws against it.

There is an org. that lobbies congress the make it legal again like it was for 1000's of years.

As for God it is obvious that you know nothing about him.

I'm a non Christian and I know more about God than you ever will. Stop pretending God is on your side.

You're going to hell for what you believe, you know that?

...sinner.

spunkloaf
04-14-2013, 04:11 PM
Yes the Bible was written by men but the author is God. The Bible has no error. What is presumptuous is people who think they know more or better than God.


Reference to homosexuality: Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1: 26 -27, 1 Corinthians 6:9

I can't listen to the words of somebody whom God doesn't love. You're going to hell sinner.

jillian
04-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Your post is opinion, not fact.

I would die for what I know, would you die for what you believe in?

you would die for what you believe...

knowledge is something based on evidence.

jillian
04-14-2013, 04:24 PM
Yes the Bible was written by men but the author is God. The Bible has no error. What is presumptuous is people who think they know more or better than God.


Reference to homosexuality: Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1: 26 -27, 1 Corinthians 6:9

leviticus says a lot of things. do you follow the dietary laws in leviticus? do you stone people to death for mixing fibers?

leviticus talks a lot about stoning people to death for various offenses. do you believe we should be doing that?

p.s. jesus never said a single word about homosexuals, but he said a lot about caring for the poor and giving unto caesar what is caesar's.

you know what else he said? he said leave the judging to judgment day.

oops

Conley
04-14-2013, 04:30 PM
http://i.imgur.com/p2i8Ml.jpg

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 04:42 PM
Ah, so now in your interpretation of the Bible angels are not heavenly beings?

Hey, dictator, all I did was read the Bible straight for what it actually says. I do not try to impose meaning. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality. If as you argue earlier they didn't have sex with the angels then the story is simply about the wrath of God toward those inhospitable to his messengers and message.


"Elohiym"

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew word for God there is Elohiym.

So by your thinking God didn't create everything, angels did.

I know it is hard for someone to follow who does not understand Bible Scholarship. I learned all this stuff years ago in Seminary.


The word Angle is an English word that is use to replace Many other words of the Bible. I know you think very highly of yourself, and would never admit you could be wrong. Bible scholarship is something I have spent a lot of time and years on. About 35 years to be exact.

The Hebrew and Greek have a deferent system of grammar than the English.

Elohiym- is used as God, gods, and Angles. There is something called context that is needed when trying to know which one it is talking about.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 04:57 PM
That is one of the silliest things I have ever heard.
First, define "the original work".
Secondly, there are thousands of copies of different books, there is not standardization of the New Testament until Constantine.
I have no idea when/if Jews consider any one version of the Old Testament as "the original".

You may have no Idea but I do.

Not True, Churches all over had copies of all 27 books of the New Testament from about 95AD on. An official canon of the Old Testament took place about 50BC called the Palestinian Canon. The Official Canon of the New Testament was from 367 to 397 the Synod of Carthage.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 04:59 PM
Countryboy, have you answered this? Can you explain how imperfect man can communicate a perfect message?

By GOD, God can do all thing.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:03 PM
Same question--which you ignored earlier: How can imperfect men possibly write God's perfect message, and then imperfect men read and understand a perfect message. Consider your interpretation that Elohiym means angels which would mean Gen 1:1 says angels created everything.

I already answered the Elohiym question in another post.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:11 PM
Sorry, that's not an answer. I'm not questioning God's perfection but man's perfection. How can imperfect man understand inspiration, an imperfect process, write it down, an imperfect process, and read and understand, an imperfect process?

Yes, so? So we have some text that is accurate from the original. That says absolutely nothing about whether it's the word of God.

The Answer to your question is the perfect Holy Spirit who lives in the child of God. It was all done by the Holy Spirit inside man not the man himself.

Chris
04-14-2013, 05:13 PM
I know it is hard for someone to follow who does not understand Bible Scholarship. I learned all this stuff years ago in Seminary.


The word Angle is an English word that is use to replace Many other words of the Bible. I know you think very highly of yourself, and would never admit you could be wrong. Bible scholarship is something I have spent a lot of time and years on. About 35 years to be exact.

The Hebrew and Greek have a deferent system of grammar than the English.

Elohiym- is used as God, gods, and Angles. There is something called context that is needed when trying to know which one it is talking about.

Hey, dictator, my Genesis 1:1 argument was based on your "scholarship", you said Elohiym meant angels.

I see now you change your tune.


There is something called context that is needed when trying to know which one it is talking about.

It's good to see you now agree with that very point I made much earlier, thank you. Context is vitally important.

I suggest you apply it to the Sodom and Gomorrah story. And that does not mean you get to impose your prejudice. Try reading from the text.


I know you think very highly of yourself, and would never admit you could be wrong.

Ad hom is not an argument, dictator, try and stick to arguing rationally.

I'm still waiting for you to rationally provide evidence FROM THE TEXT that the Sodom and Gomorrah story says anything at all about homosexuality.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:13 PM
Nothing I can say to you will convince you of the accuracy of the Bible, and admittedly it does require a certain amount of faith. But people are under the mistaken impression that Christians follow a blind faith. As you can see, it is faith in evidence. No archaeological find has ever refuted anything in the Bible. I find that very compelling.

What a great statement Thank You.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:17 PM
What evidence? What evidence do you have that God speaks through the Bible, that the myriad authors got it right, that you got it right?

Hebrews 1:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So faith itself is evidence for faith? You have faith in faith?

You refuse to any evidence, if you really want to know go do the Research. I for one do not have the time to but heads with you.

Chris
04-14-2013, 05:17 PM
The Answer to your question is the perfect Holy Spirit who lives in the child of God. It was all done by the Holy Spirit inside man not the man himself.

You're not answering my question. You've danced around this question many times now. I'm not asking how God, or the Holy Spirit, does things, but how man does--how does imperfect man understand the perfection of God (Holy Spirit) to write and read it with any understanding?

Chris
04-14-2013, 05:18 PM
You refuse to any evidence, if you really want to know go do the Research. I for one do not have the time to but heads with you.

Your evidence is things not seen, no where to be seen.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:29 PM
That's not knowledge, it's belief. It is what it is. I'm not denigrating it, in fact I think making belief to be something it's not--claiming it's the same as science, reason, knowledge--denigrates it.

We know because God revealed it to us by way of the Holy Spirit, this is not faith but knowledge. There is faith that God has done and will do what he said by his Word. You will never see this because you Refuse to, all you want to do is argue, and that is fine I like a good argument.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:38 PM
Except if you truly knew it you could explain it.

Again we have explained, you refuse to except our explanation.

Chris
04-14-2013, 05:41 PM
We know because God revealed it to us by way of the Holy Spirit, this is not faith but knowledge. There is faith that God has done and will do what he said by his Word. You will never see this because you Refuse to, all you want to do is argue, and that is fine I like a good argument.

You're still not answering my question, how dies man do it?

And your answer for how God does it is simply he does it. Not an answer either.

Your faith is circular believing the Bible true because the Bible says it's true.

I don't see it because you nor countryboy can explain it. That there is the true nature of faith.

BillyBob
04-14-2013, 05:43 PM
So what have learned here, is it 'OK' to be gay?

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:47 PM
You've explained nothing. You've just used the word revelation where country used other words. And now you blame me for what you cannot do, explain what you claim to know but in fact believe.

Two sentences:

I know he's my brother.
I believe he's my brother.

The use of know there implies I can show, I can demonstrate, I can explain he's my brother. The use of believe there implies I can do none of those things but still accept he's my brother.

In fact if you knew what you claim as revealed to be true, you'd have no need to believe it, no need for faith, and then you couldn't be saved.

Sorry wrong. I know a lot of people who know lots of things ( who have 130 IQ or higher ) who can't explain anything. They are horrible teachers.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:50 PM
you would die for what you believe...

knowledge is something based on evidence.

And the Bible has lots of evidence.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:52 PM
leviticus says a lot of things. do you follow the dietary laws in leviticus? do you stone people to death for mixing fibers?

leviticus talks a lot about stoning people to death for various offenses. do you believe we should be doing that?

p.s. jesus never said a single word about homosexuals, but he said a lot about caring for the poor and giving unto caesar what is caesar's.

you know what else he said? he said leave the judging to judgment day.

oops


Taken out of Context.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 05:59 PM
You're not answering my question. You've danced around this question many times now. I'm not asking how God, or the Holy Spirit, does things, but how man does--how does imperfect man understand the perfection of God (Holy Spirit) to write and read it with any understanding?

Again I have told you. You refuse to except my answer as an answer.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 06:01 PM
So what have learned here, is it 'OK' to be gay?

No it is a sin against God.

Chris
04-14-2013, 06:12 PM
Again I have told you. You refuse to except my answer as an answer.

Because you don't answer my question, you answer your own. Asked how imperfect man can understand perfect God you answer God does it. If I asked how you cook a cake and you said mom does it you're telling me nothing.

There is no answer to my question. It's impossible. It's beyond our nature to know such things.

Yes you have faith. Fine.

Mr Happy
04-14-2013, 06:12 PM
And the Bible has lots of evidence.

It has very little evidence of a god.

Anybody who believes in a god is doing so based solely on faith. There is no verifiable, tangible evidence of a god...in any religion

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 06:17 PM
It has very little evidence of a god.

Anybody who believes in a god is doing so based solely on faith. There is no verifiable, tangible evidence of a god...in any religion



I didn't find proof of God in a book.

I found proof of God, and His Son, in the way they have visibly worked in my life.

BillyBob
04-14-2013, 06:21 PM
No it is a sin against God.

Well it's hard to tell because this thread has gone so off-topic we might as well be talking about Islam and how old the girls have to be before you can fornicate with them. I'm guessing 6 years old, not sure what the age is for goats.

Chris
04-14-2013, 06:34 PM
I didn't find proof of God in a book.

I found proof of God, and His Son, in the way they have visibly worked in my life.

Ah, so there is proof you say, a product of reason, a thing to be known and shared.

No, it is a thing of faith, that cannot be known or shared.

I have no argument with faith, there can be no argument with faith.

jillian
04-14-2013, 06:55 PM
And the Bible has lots of evidence.

the bible is not EVIDENCE. you cannot use a religious book to prove the religion.

not to mention... whose bible? my bible? your bible?

muslims believe the koran is "evidence".

mormons believe *their* book is "evidence".

want to try again?

jillian
04-14-2013, 07:00 PM
There is a problem with your statement. They never had sex with an angel.

Also the word Angel in this text is the Hebrew word "Malak" that means messenger or prophet. In other text a deferent word is use that means heavenly being. The angels of Sodom and Gomorrah were just men give power to destoy.

In Jude, the words "strange flesh" The Greek word is "heteros" that means "other" and "sarz" that means human nature. The English word we use for this is perversion.

I'm sorry but it is talking about Homosexuality.

The KJV is not the best version to study from, it's out dated, has a lot of mistakes in translation.

in other words, there are different "versions" of the story and you're picking the one you like.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 08:39 PM
It has very little evidence of a god.

Anybody who believes in a god is doing so based solely on faith. There is no verifiable, tangible evidence of a god...in any religion

I have evidence that verifies that there is a God to me and that all I need. Yes a lot of my religion is faith but not all of it.

Greenridgeman
04-14-2013, 08:43 PM
I have evidence that verifies that there is a God to me and that all I need. Yes a lot of my religion is faith but not all of it.


I have FAITH Jesus will exend the promised grace to me, should my heart be true.

I KNOW he exists, because I am alive, and that cannot be accounted for without divine intervention, and because the Spirit tells me so.

jillian
04-14-2013, 08:46 PM
I have evidence that verifies that there is a God to me and that all I need. Yes a lot of my religion is faith but not all of it.

you have faith. which is fine.

but you don't have "evidence" and you don't have anything that would "prove" your belief to others who don't believe.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 08:48 PM
I didn't find proof of God in a book.

I found proof of God, and His Son, in the way they have visibly worked in my life.

I have found proof in both. The proof in the Bible, the proof of God revealing himself to me, The miracles of God in my life, The order of the universe, all are proof of God to me.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 08:52 PM
the bible is not EVIDENCE. you cannot use a religious book to prove the religion.

not to mention... whose bible? my bible? your bible?

muslims believe the koran is "evidence".

mormons believe *their* book is "evidence".

want to try again?

The Holy Bible has no error in it, that is proof to me.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 08:57 PM
you have faith. which is fine.

but you don't have "evidence" and you don't have anything that would "prove" your belief to others who don't believe.

Sorry but your wrong. I have proved it to 100's of people who did not believe over the years. Mostly Russians.

Chris
04-14-2013, 08:58 PM
I have FAITH Jesus will exend the promised grace to me, should my heart be true.

I KNOW he exists, because I am alive, and that cannot be accounted for without divine intervention, and because the Spirit tells me so.

Your metaphorical use of know conflates and confuses.

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:00 PM
Sorry but your wrong. I have proved it to 100's of people who did not believe over the years. Mostly Russians.

Dictator, it would probably help if you said I disagree or I belief differently, for someone being right or wrong here is just based on belief, or, as Greenridgeman said earlier opinion/ Unless of course you have an argument to show someone wrong, which you don't.

jillian
04-14-2013, 09:01 PM
Sorry but your wrong. I have proved it to 100's of people who did not believe over the years. Mostly Russians.

russians? ok.

but what you have is still a book....

others have different books...

i have respect for everyone's beliefs so long as they don't hurt anyone else...

and as long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on me.... because i have my own beliefs.

jillian
04-14-2013, 09:01 PM
The Holy Bible has no error in it, that is proof to me.

your holy bible or mine?

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:02 PM
I have found proof in both. The proof in the Bible, the proof of God revealing himself to me, The miracles of God in my life, The order of the universe, all are proof of God to me.

Present this proof, in syllogistic form, please. I'm quite interested. Or do you actually mean again you have found not proof but faith.

TheDictator
04-14-2013, 09:16 PM
Present this proof, in syllogistic form, please. I'm quite interested. Or do you actually mean again you have found not proof but faith.

Again chris I'm not going to waste my time, you refuse to see anyother side but your own.

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:28 PM
Again chris I'm not going to waste my time, you refuse to see anyother side but your own.

Tell me what your side is instead of engaging in defensive ad hom. The only thing you've said is it's a matter of faith, belief. I'm open to your side, I asked you for your proof, didn't I?

If God exists and His message is for everyone why then His message must be the ultimate in simplicity, it shouldn't be a cryptic mystery to all but a few elite scholars who claim to know something but never reveal what it is.

Chris
04-14-2013, 09:30 PM
Here is my favorite proof about God. I'm not hesitant to present it.

It has much to do with with my repeated and unanswered question how imperfect man can know perfect God.

What I was asking was an ontological question answered by St Anselm who proves God exists as follows:


St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th. century C.E. In his Proslogion, St. Anselm claims to derive the existence of God from the concept of a being than which no greater can be conceived. St. Anselm reasoned that, if such a being fails to exist, then a greater being—namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists—can be conceived. But this would be absurd: nothing can be greater than a being than which no greater can be conceived. So a being than which no greater can be conceived—i.e., God—exists.

@ Ontological Arguments (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/)

But my favorite proof, known as Gasking's Proof, extends the logic of St Anselm's ontological proof. It goes like this (same link):



The creation of the world is the most marvellous achievement imaginable.
The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
The greater the disability or handicap of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
Therefore, if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator, we can conceive a greater being—namely, one who created everything while not existing.
An existing God, therefore, would not be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived, because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.
(Hence) God does not exist.



Hint: He was joking. There is no proof of God.

roadmaster
04-14-2013, 11:42 PM
Hint: He was joking. There is no proof of God. Unless you walk with Him. We don't have to prove it, that's not my job.

Chris
04-15-2013, 05:40 AM
Unless you walk with Him. We don't have to prove it, that's not my job.

That's faith for which no proof is needed, in fact, as I pointed out, if you could prove it, you'd have no need of faith.