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KC
12-08-2012, 10:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NxBzKkWo0mo

From LearnLiberty (http://www.learnliberty.org/videos/top-3-ways-sweatshops-help-poor-escape-poverty/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=What do you think is the best way to alleviate global poverty?&utm_campaign=social referrals 13)


Should sweatshops around the world be shut down? What might we say if we looked at sweatshops from the perspective of the world’s poor? While it may be true that sweatshops treat workers unfairly, Professor Matt Zwolinski says there are three points to be made in defense of sweatshops.

The exchange between the worker and the employer is mutually beneficial. Sweatshop jobs often pay three to seven times more than wages paid elsewhere in an economy. Workers in the developing world tend to view sweatshop labor as a very attractive option.
Even if sweatshop labor is unfair, it’s a bad idea to prohibit it. Taking away sweatshops just takes away an option for the poorest workers of the world. While countries can make it illegal for sweatshops to pay low wages, they cannot prevent sweatshops from shutting down and paying no wages. And when that happens, the workers all lose their jobs.
It is better to do something to end the problem of global poverty than it is to do nothing. Sweatshops are doing something to help. They are providing jobs that pay better than other alternatives, and they are contributing to a process of economic development that has the potential to offer dramatic living increases.

If we look at sweatshops from the perspective of the world’s poor, which looks better: the American company that outsources to a sweatshop and provides jobs in developing countries, or the American company that, because of its high-minded moral principles, hires only U.S. workers?

Chris
12-08-2012, 10:49 AM
Are sweatshops inherently bad? No. Great video. As the video say, so long as it's voluntary and not coerced.

KC
12-08-2012, 10:51 AM
Are sweatshops inherently bad? No. Great video. As the video say, so long as it's voluntary and not coerced.

Right, people who take those jobs voluntarily take them because it's either the only feasible option available or because it's the best option available. Either way it's a gain, not a loss.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Right, people who take those jobs voluntarily take them because it's either the only feasible option available or because it's the best option available. Either way it's a gain, not a loss.

Exactly. It's the best option available. That is, it's actually a source of good but insular progressives demand western standards and demonize these so called sweat shop operations. Any way you look at it the lives of these people are made better. Now if one's problem is with the system as a whole I could be more sympathetic but focusing in on "sweat shops" is silly at best.

KC
12-08-2012, 11:04 AM
Exactly. It's the best option available. That is, it's actually a source of good but insular progressives demand western standards and demonize these so called sweat shop operations. Any way you look at it the lives of these people are made better. Now if one's problem is with the system as a whole I could be more sympathetic but focusing in on "sweat shops" is silly at best.

The fact that "progressives demand western standards" brings up one very important question to mind. Is it even possible for huge portions of the global population to enjoy western standards of living? I would say no, but it would be nice to hear some other answers.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 11:07 AM
The fact that "progressives demand western standards" brings up one very important question to mind. Is it even possible for huge portions of the global population to enjoy western standards of living? I would say no, but it would be nice to hear some other answers.

I don't believe so. I can't imagine 7 billion human beings consuming like westerners and Americans in particular.

KC
12-08-2012, 11:12 AM
I don't believe so. I can't imagine 7 billion human beings consuming like westerners and Americans in particular.

Of course everyone cannot, but I do wonder whether China or India will ever rise to living standards like we have here. They're certainly working towards that goal aggressively.

Semi related note, I read a statistic that seemed depressing to me the other day. As it is, 1 in 7 people in the world live in Africa. In the upcoming decades, the number will be 1 in 4, if population trends continue.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Of course everyone cannot, but I do wonder whether China or India will ever rise to living standards like we have here. They're certainly working towards that goal aggressively.

Semi related note, I read a statistic that seemed depressing to me the other day. As it is, 1 in 7 people in the world live in Africa. In the upcoming decades, the number will be 1 in 4, if population trends continue.

That is why migration from south to north is becoming such a pressing issue. Prescient and concerned souls, such as myself, are still uncommon because many of us have a fear of being called a gasp..."racist" but that is going to change and it won't be pretty.

KC
12-08-2012, 01:27 PM
That is why migration from south to north is becoming such a pressing issue. Prescient and concerned souls, such as myself, are still uncommon because many of us have a fear of being called a gasp..."racist" but that is going to change and it won't be pretty.

Isn't nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment on the rise in Europe, especially in the Eurozone?

Mister D
12-08-2012, 01:34 PM
Isn't nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment on the rise in Europe, especially in the Eurozone?

It's always been high but westerners, ourselves included, have been bribed into acquiescence. As long as the system that generates those bribes remains sustainable we will continue to see the popular will thwarted.

Good point about China and India. Again, I'm no environmentalist but is that really sustainable? Can so much of humanity live such a lifestyle? This has nothing to do with Malthusian Traps or anything like that. We're not talking about survival and decent living but relatively lavish living.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 03:19 PM
The OP defines something that isn't really a sweat shop. A sweat shop violates rights and is often violent. They distort free markets and drive wages down.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 03:24 PM
The OP defines something that isn't really a sweat shop. A sweat shop violates rights and is often violent. They distort free markets and drive wages down.

Is there any objective criteria? It seems like a subjective thing to me.

KC
12-08-2012, 03:25 PM
It's always been high but westerners, ourselves included, have been bribed into acquiescence. As long as the system that generates those bribes remains sustainable we will continue to see the popular will thwarted.

Good point about China and India. Again, I'm no environmentalist but is that really sustainable? Can so much of humanity live such a lifestyle? This has nothing to do with Malthusian Traps or anything like that. We're not talking about survival and decent living but relatively lavish living.

So do you think the rise of the right in France in recent election and re emergence of popular nationalism in Europe is due to the increasing awareness that the "bribes" are unsustainable?

It's definitely not sustainable from an environmental standpoint but i won't begrudge China and India their pursuit of western style living standards. That would be hypocritical.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 03:27 PM
Is there any objective criteria? It seems like a subjective thing to me.

Perhaps there is. My point is that the OP whitewashed the issue to provide a libertarian argument that makes it sound like peaches and cream.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 03:28 PM
So do you think the rise of the right in France in recent election and re emergence of popular nationalism in Europe is due to the increasing awareness that the "bribes" are unsustainable?

It's definitely not sustainable from an environmental standpoint but i won't begrudge China and India their pursuit of western style living standards. That would be hypocritical.

I don't think that the right in France is like the right in the US. The right in France are nationalists and big government types.

KC
12-08-2012, 03:30 PM
Perhaps there is. My point is that the OP whitewashed the issue to provide a libertarian argument that makes it sound like peaches and cream.

You're probably right about that. But is it the case that all sweatshops violate a person's rights? Certainly the argument provided in the OP provides a defense of any foreign firms that pay simply demand more hours + less pay than we are accustomed to in the West.

KC
12-08-2012, 03:31 PM
I don't think that the right in France is like the right in the US. The right in France are nationalists and big government types.

Me neither. When I talk about the right in France that's exactly what I mean, btw.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 03:33 PM
So do you think the rise of the right in France in recent election and re emergence of popular nationalism in Europe is due to the increasing awareness that the "bribes" are unsustainable?

It's definitely not sustainable from an environmental standpoint but i won't begrudge China and India their pursuit of western style living standards. That would be hypocritical.

How can you begrudge them? They just want to have the same lifestyles we have. Moreover, we advertise it. We sell it. We urge it on the rest of the world.

The French right has had its ups and downs since the early 1970s but the National Front, for example, was still a protest vote. Perhaps deep down people are beginning to realize that the system as such can't last but unfortunately I think people will keep it on life support for as long as they can. It's our nature, I suppose. They'll scream in the streets, throw some rocks but the object of that is to get their free stuff rather than to get on with things or find an alternative.

Mister D
12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Perhaps there is. My point is that the OP whitewashed the issue to provide a libertarian argument that makes it sound like peaches and cream.

I see what you mean. The term is being stretched to include everything that does not meet our standards in the west. On the other hand, isn't that what the anti-sweat shop folks do?

Mister D
12-08-2012, 04:20 PM
I don't think that the right in France is like the right in the US. The right in France are nationalists and big government types.

Depends on who you're talking about. The establishment right is no different than the establishment left. They debate the mere details like our own establishment parties but do not really offer any real alternative. Some of the most interesting intellectuals on the French right are European federalists who while hating the current E.U. acknowledge that the days of the nation state are numbered.

Chris
12-08-2012, 04:21 PM
I don't think that the right in France is like the right in the US. The right in France are nationalists and big government types.

Iow, neocons.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Iow, neocons.

So far as domestic policies go.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 06:18 PM
You're probably right about that. But is it the case that all sweatshops violate a person's rights? Certainly the argument provided in the OP provides a defense of any foreign firms that pay simply demand more hours + less pay than we are accustomed to in the West.

I wouldn't call a place that didn't abuse its employees a sweat shop. Even if they paid low and asked for long hours. The must be an element of coercion.

Chris
12-08-2012, 06:30 PM
So far as domestic policies go.

That might be half the Rep Party though, the Bushes, Rumsfeld, heck all the candidates but Johnson and Paul. There aren't that many small government Reps who really hold to that principle. More are coercive conservatives (to get back to topic :-)).

KC
12-08-2012, 06:37 PM
I wouldn't call a place that didn't abuse its employees a sweat shop. Even if they paid low and asked for long hours. The must be an element of coercion.

Can you provide an example? I always thought that a Sweatshop was one where wages were low and hours were high.

Peter1469
12-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Can you provide an example? I always thought that a Sweatshop was one where wages were low and hours were high.

Here is a list of modern examples: http://www.laborrights.org/creating-a-sweatfree-world/fairness-in-flowers/factory-profiles