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Chris
02-16-2018, 06:10 PM
Steven Pinker on the harm identity politics causes...even itself. Important is the distinction he makes between the origins of identity politics and it's current manifestation.

Identity Politics Is 'An Enemy of Reason and Enlightenment Values' (http://www.weeklystandard.com/steven-pinker-identity-politics-is-an-enemy-of-reason-and-enlightenment-values/article/2011595)


Adam Rubenstein: If “reason” is to be “the currency of our discourse,” what’s the future of identity politics? ...

Steven Pinker: Identity politics is the syndrome in which people’s beliefs and interests are assumed to be determined by their membership in groups, particularly their sex, race, sexual orientation, and disability status. Its signature is the tic of preceding a statement with “As a,” as if that bore on the cogency of what was to follow. Identity politics originated with the fact that members of certain groups really were disadvantaged by their group membership, which forged them into a coalition with common interests: Jews really did have a reason to form the Anti-Defamation League.

But when it spreads beyond the target of combatting discrimination and oppression, it is an enemy of reason and Enlightenment values, including, ironically, the pursuit of justice for oppressed groups. For one thing, reason depends on there being an objective reality and universal standards of logic. As Chekhov said, there is no national multiplication table, and there is no racial or LGBT one either.

This isn’t just a matter of keeping our science and politics in touch with reality; it gives force to the very movements for moral improvement that originally inspired identity politics. The slave trade and the Holocaust are not group-bonding myths; they objectively happened, and their evil is something that all people, regardless of their race, gender, or sexual orientation, must acknowledge and work to prevent in the future.

Even the aspect of identity politics with a grain of justification—that a man cannot truly experience what it is like to be a woman, or a white person an African American—can subvert the cause of equality and harmony if it is taken too far, because it undermines one of the greatest epiphanies of the Enlightenment: that people are equipped with a capacity for sympathetic imagination, which allows them to appreciate the suffering of sentient beings unlike them. In this regard nothing could be more asinine than outrage against “cultural appropriation”—as if it’s a bad thing, rather than a good thing, for a white writer to try to convey the experiences of a black person, or vice versa.

Common Sense
02-16-2018, 06:17 PM
I often try to imagine how others perceive issues and why they draw much different conclusions than I do. It's not easy and it's impossible to truly understand their perspective. But it's worth emphasizing with them and trying to understand their perspective.

Identity politics on both sides and this hyper polarizing climate is the biggest threat to the US right now. All sides choose to demonize and describe their political opponents and their positions with hyperbolic rhetoric that often is untrue.

Claimng that Democrats are socialist American hating statists is an example...as is describing Reps as heartless racists.

Chris
02-16-2018, 06:24 PM
I often try to imagine how others perceive issues and why they draw much different conclusions than I do. It's not easy and it's impossible to truly understand their perspective. But it's worth emphasizing with them and trying to understand their perspective.

Identity politics on both sides and this hyper polarizing climate is the biggest threat to the US right now. All sides choose to demonize and describe their political opponents and their positions with hyperbolic rhetoric that often is untrue.

Claimng that Democrats are socialist American hating statists is an example...as is describing Reps as heartless racists.


I don't think you're understanding identity politics. Read more on Pinker.

Common Sense
02-16-2018, 06:28 PM
I don't think you're understanding identity politics. Read more on Pinker.
It's a two way street. The concept that identity politics is solely a left wing phenomenon is false.

I was simply expanding on the concept as I see it.

Chris
02-16-2018, 06:40 PM
It's a two way street. The concept that identity politics is solely a left wing phenomenon is false.

I was simply expanding on the concept as I see it.


Tell us what you think identity politics is. It's not identity defined by party or politics.

Common Sense
02-16-2018, 06:56 PM
Tell us what you think identity politics is. It's not identity defined by party or politics.
Identity politics can indeed be party affiliation or political positions. It can be religious identity. Sexual identity, etc...

It can also be based on shared values or even shared opposition to other groups.

I understand why people gravitate to it. It can be a positive force and it can be a negative force. At its extreme it's divisive.

Chris
02-16-2018, 07:02 PM
Identity politics can indeed be party affiliation or political positions. It can be religious identity. Sexual identity, etc...

It can also be based on shared values or even shared opposition to other groups.

I understand why people gravitate to it. It can be a positive force and it can be a negative force. At its extreme it's divisive.


That's not identity politics. Pinker defines it succinctly in his first sentence: "Identity politics is the syndrome in which people’s beliefs and interests are assumed to be determined by their membership in groups, particularly their sex, race, sexual orientation, and disability status."

People may identify as Catholic, Democrat, scientist, golfer, etc but those are affiliations, groups they join. One can be a Catholic Democrat scientist who golfs.

Identity politics is exclusive. Race, gender, etc are exclusive. There needs as well to be an element of power involve, where one identity group is exploited and oppressed by its opposite.

I agree it's divisive. It's intended to be.

Common Sense
02-16-2018, 07:20 PM
That's not identity politics. Pinker defines it succinctly in his first sentence: "Identity politics is the syndrome in which people’s beliefs and interests are assumed to be determined by their membership in groups, particularly their sex, race, sexual orientation, and disability status."

People may identify as Catholic, Democrat, scientist, golfer, etc but those are affiliations, groups they join. One can be a Catholic Democrat scientist who golfs.

Identity politics is exclusive. Race, gender, etc are exclusive. There needs as well to be an element of power involve, where one identity group is exploited and oppressed by its opposite.

I agree it's divisive. It's intended to be.

Pinker can define it as he wishes. Essentially it is people sharing the idea that they are part of a distinctive group. More often than not a group who claims to be oppressed and band together in opposition. That can describe a variety of groups.

Certainly it describes many groups on the left and has been a huge factor in the civil rights movement and gay rights movements. It however can be associated with right wing groups who claim to be victims as well. Evidence can be found on this very board.

Chris
02-16-2018, 07:41 PM
Pinker can define it as he wishes. Essentially it is people sharing the idea that they are part of a distinctive group. More often than not a group who claims to be oppressed and band together in opposition. That can describe a variety of groups.

Certainly it describes many groups on the left and has been a huge factor in the civil rights movement and gay rights movements. It however can be associated with right wing groups who claim to be victims as well. Evidence can be found on this very board.


No, CS, you're like some here who enter a discussion by redefining words, arguing semantics and ambiguity, and thereby chaging the topic, which i defined by the OP: A fairly recennt development in American politics that is called identity politics.

It can't be that Canada is isolated, here's Canadian Peterson on identity politics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WH3_uvz3bQ

American Haidt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5dAX0NXY9Y

I've posted many threads on identity politics.

Common
02-16-2018, 07:48 PM
I often try to imagine how others perceive issues and why they draw much different conclusions than I do. It's not easy and it's impossible to truly understand their perspective. But it's worth emphasizing with them and trying to understand their perspective.

Identity politics on both sides and this hyper polarizing climate is the biggest threat to the US right now. All sides choose to demonize and describe their political opponents and their positions with hyperbolic rhetoric that often is untrue.

Claimng that Democrats are socialist American hating statists is an example...as is describing Reps as heartless racists.

There are democrats and I stress plural coming out and saying that the party cannot survive being the immigrant and identity politics.

Democrats as it stands do not have an agenda other than Illegal immigrant sanctuary cities and Racializing everything and raging about trump.

Realistically with no political bluster there are "other" problems in this country and none are being solved or even considered by democrats, they are totally consumed with 3 issues on a federal level.

People have noticed and those people are democrats, center left democrats, and especially lifelong babyboomer democrats. Many babyboomer democrats are holdover dems because they were Union workers before they retired, that no longer applies and they are jumping ship because of IDENTITY POLITICS especially and the failure of democrats accomplishing anything.

Recently all medicare recipients found out what obama did to them after obamacare passed. Trump just reversed all of it yesterday. Guess who babyboomers turned on and turned too

Kacper
02-16-2018, 08:49 PM
Steven Pinker on the harm identity politics causes...even itself. Important is the distinction he makes between the origins of identity politics and it's current manifestation.

Identity Politics Is 'An Enemy of Reason and Enlightenment Values' (http://www.weeklystandard.com/steven-pinker-identity-politics-is-an-enemy-of-reason-and-enlightenment-values/article/2011595)

People who oppose identity politics are playing identity politics. You apparently don't see that.

Common Sense
02-16-2018, 09:04 PM
No, CS, you're like some here who enter a discussion by redefining words, arguing semantics and ambiguity, and thereby chaging the topic, which i defined by the OP: A fairly recennt development in American politics that is called identity politics.

It can't be that Canada is isolated, here's Canadian Peterson on identity politics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WH3_uvz3bQ

American Haidt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5dAX0NXY9Y

I've posted many threads on identity politics.

I'm not redefining anything. You're trying to pass one persons opinion off as indisputable gospel.

To be honest my initial response was just my honest thoughts on the op and perhaps an extrapolation of it. However I'm well aware of your views on identity politics and the idea that it's solely a phenomenon of the left. I'm simply trying to balance the argument with the idea that it goes beyond that and that the current polarization is linked to identity politics on all sides.

Chris
02-16-2018, 10:00 PM
I'm not redefining anything. You're trying to pass one persons opinion off as indisputable gospel.

To be honest my initial response was just my honest thoughts on the op and perhaps an extrapolation of it. However I'm well aware of your views on identity politics and the idea that it's solely a phenomenon of the left. I'm simply trying to balance the argument with the idea that it goes beyond that and that the current polarization is linked to identity politics on all sides.


It is the current definition. And it is the topic. If you want to talk about something different, start your own thread. You're not balancing anything.

Chris
02-16-2018, 10:05 PM
Criminy, even Bill Murray gets it: Bill Murray Just Delivered Kill Shot To PC Identity Politics (https://www.westernjournal.com/bill-murray-just-delivered-kill-shot-pc-identity-politics-video/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYc0_QyLI3w

...“He says, ‘No, no. I just think the way Democrats handle things is poor, where they try to pick out little pieces of a population and say we represent the Hispanics, we represent the LGBT or something,'” Murray said.

He argued that some voters should feel insulted to realize that they are important to politicians largely due to the circumstances of their birth.

“They’re not speaking to everyone at once,” he said. “It’s almost demeaning to say ‘I’m choosing you because you’re a splinter group or you’re a certain minority group.’ There’s almost a resentment that somehow you’re separated again by a politician.”

Chris
02-16-2018, 10:05 PM
People who oppose identity politics are playing identity politics. You apparently don't see that.

No, but let's see if you can explain it.

Chris
02-17-2018, 12:06 PM
Uh, Kacper, I'm eagerly awaiting your explanation.