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IMPress Polly
02-28-2018, 11:30 AM
I honestly expected it to be a pretty sexist film because other Marvel Studios pictures typically have been, but this one really stood out as not one at all. I mean frankly, overall I would say that I liked the female representation in this movie better than that in Wonder Woman! That's mostly because there was more of it (it's pervasive throughout the film), but also because the women are presented consistently as credible, believable warriors who can stand on their own. There are no aesthetic concessions to the male gaze. By the way, did you know that the film's Dora Milaje is based on a real all-woman African army (https://thegrio.com/2018/02/20/black-panther-dora-milaje/)? Yep, it's true! (I've noticed that the promotion of exclusively female communities, organizations, and spaces seems to get under the skin of both MRAs and TRAs more than anything else does, so I especially appreciate this movie's decision to be brave that way. :grin:)

It's also got a lot of black people! :wink: I mean really that's what's obviously the most refreshing about it, particularly for a major Hollywood production in this genre. If feels very different from any other superhero movie we've seen so far. It revolves around a kind of Afro-futurism that's absolutely fascinating! It envisions a fictional African nation that's very high-tech and absolutely independent; free of colonization. And it's not subtle about its messaging on the subjects of race or imperialism. I mean it's not heavy-handed (as in rife with allusions to these things per se), but they're there and there are no compromises made toward the feelings of white people. I really liked it actually! I was actually quite glad about that. I didn't want this to be a movie that faked it for the sake of my ego, and it doesn't. You won't be surprised then to learn that this picture was created almost entirely by black people. I can't help but figure those two things to be related.

Something else I've casually noticed about it: It's not a focus of the film at all, but there's room to question whether and to what extent this futuristic society is a capitalist one at all because while there a giant buildings etc. etc., there's a interesting absence of corporate logos here to be noticed; a fact that contrasts starkly with how Marvel presents the worlds of their other superheroes. And I've noticed that it appears that everyone in the society appears to have the magic beads that provide all the necessities as well. I mean you have to pay attention, I think, to notice those details, but I've seen the movie a few times and that's standing out to me right now; that this appears to be a society that's free of need. It has vendors, so obviously there's some form of exchange going on, but I'm thinking that, in the context of everyone's needs already appearing to be met, maybe that's like the role of commerce in Star Trek, you know? Where money isn't actually needed at all, but seems to be used sometimes nostalgically by the crew anyway for aesthetic, legacy purposes, kind of like how the UK still technically retains a monarchy, but for purely aesthetic purposes, as it is completely powerless at this point. I'm thinking maybe it's supposed to be something like that. But anyway, I also really like how organically the technology seems to be integrated into, and used as part of, the natural environment too. Cliched as this expression has unfortunately become, it's unlike anything I've seen presented before in film! The way in which the technology of this society is presented as working with nature rather than against it, I mean. It's really beautiful. :smiley:

Minor spoiler: The villain also isn't who you expect it to be either, so be open-minded! The REAL villain is actually quite a sympathetic character in his own right whom I think you'll find interesting.

Another thing that I found compelling that they addressed really well here, metaphorically, was the sort of contention that exists between people who are from modern-day Africa and African Americans. I thought that was a highly interesting dynamic that they brought into the picture.

Obviously, if you're a Trump fan, you're going to hate this movie on every level. To add one more layer concerning why, one of the major themes in Black Panther is the question of national isolationism and I think you can probably guess which side of that question the movie winds up taking in the end. I was refreshed though to find that it doesn't do so in a way that sees Wakanda (the fictional African nation in question) capitulate to American imperialism or anything like that, as one feared might have been the direction it would go at first. But anyway yeah, Trump fans already seem to hate it. The main and most common reason I've seen them articulate so far is that Black Panther is supposedly a "racist" movie for featuring a nearly all-black cast of characters. (Hmm, I wonder what that makes just about every other film in this genre to date for featuring nearly all-white casts? :wink:) But yeah, they object to everything, of course. It's rather hypocritical of them too. You know, these are the people who always complain about various franchises supposedly being "appropriated" from white males to girls and women and/people of color, like Star Wars, Star Trek, Ghostbusters, Thor, Mad Max, etc. "Get your own franchise!", they routinely suggest to all other demographics. And yet when live-action movies based on franchises like Wonder Woman and Black Panther come out, do they calm down and be supportive? No, instead their opposition actually intensifies! You see? It really IS all about just excluding everyone else, period. That's what their shit actually is, not this "appropriation" nonsense. I'm just saying!

Anyway, Black Panther is awesome. My favorite superhero film to date. :cool2:

Max Rockatansky
02-28-2018, 11:43 AM
I look forward to seeing the movie, but it'll be about six months when it comes out on Netflix.

Mankind's advancement through the ages has always been toward greater individual autonomy, which includes a reduction of unfulfilled needs on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs which results in advancement toward Self-Actualization. More people are attaining the highest level, but most are not. It's not the "corporation's" fault, it's a lack of tech and resources. In fact, I'll submit that "corporation's" have allowed many of us to rise to the highest level.

The only way I see all of mankind reaching a level where they able to attain self-actualization (able, not will) is when we develop the tech and resources to have the equivalent of Star Trek's replicators and unlimited energy. At that point, there will be no competition for resources, no reason for anyone to want anything from others.

IMPress Polly
02-28-2018, 11:56 AM
Have you seen it, Safety? I was particularly interested in your opinion.

Ethereal
02-28-2018, 12:11 PM
I will watch it when it comes out on Redbox. These days, I am rarely willing to pay more than $2 to watch a movie.

I assume Black Panther will be very much the same as all the other blockbuster superhero movies over-saturating society: Big on action and visuals, thin on plot and character development.

The Avengers series of movies has been getting consistent 90% ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, yet the movies themselves are EXTREMELY tedious and one-dimensional, interspersed with laughable action sequences that seem to have been designed for children, by children.

My favorite superhero movies of late have all been the kinds of superhero movies that deviate from the conventions: Logan, for example. Wow... what an amazing take on the X-Men and Wolverine in particular. That movie was visceral. Or Guardians of the Galaxy. Just hilarious and clever.

Okay, I'm done pontificating... for now.

IMPress Polly
02-28-2018, 12:18 PM
If those are your points of comparison, then I think you're in for a pleasant surprise, Ethereal! There are solid reasons why Black Panther is the most critically acclaimed film in this genre to date!

Take it from someone who has traditionally been skeptical of, and disappointed by, superhero movies. In my opinion, the genre has generally been improving over the last year (since Logan) and this is the finest entry yet.

Ethereal
02-28-2018, 12:22 PM
It's also got a lot of black people! :wink: I mean really that's what's obviously the most refreshing about it, particularly for a major Hollywood production in this genre. If feels very different from any other superhero movie we've seen so far. It revolves around a kind of Afro-futurism that's absolutely fascinating! It envisions a fictional African nation that's very high-tech and absolutely independent; free of colonization. And it's not subtle about its messaging on the subjects of race or imperialism. I mean it's not heavy-handed (as in rife with allusions to these things per se), but they're there and there are no compromises made toward the feelings of white people. I really liked it actually! I was actually quite glad about that. I didn't want this to be a movie that faked it for the sake of my ego, and it doesn't. You won't be surprised then to learn that this picture was created almost entirely by black people. I can't help but figure those two things to be related.

Okay, back to pontificating... :grin:

I guess I can understand why that means something to you, but personally I don't even want to think about how many "black people" a movie has. I don't want to view anything through a radicalized lens, which is why I don't like the idea of "white" and "black" movies. I just see another big budget Hollywood monstrosity. And I think that is how MLK and others like him would have wanted us to view movies and society generally.

IMPress Polly
02-28-2018, 12:25 PM
Ethereal wrote:
Okay, back to pontificating... :grin:

I guess I can understand why that means something to you, but personally I don't even want to think about how many "black people" a movie has. I don't want to view anything through a radicalized lens, which is why I don't like the idea of "white" and "black" movies. I just see another big budget Hollywood monstrosity. And I think that is how MLK and others like him would have wanted us to view movies and society generally.

...:laugh:

Okay. I will leave you to your prejudices then. :grin:

Ethereal
02-28-2018, 12:31 PM
If those are your points of comparison, then I think you're in for a pleasant surprise, Ethereal! There are solid reasons why Black Panther is the most critically acclaimed film in this genre to date!

Take it from someone who has traditionally been skeptical of, and disappointed by, superhero movies. In my opinion, the genre has generally been improving over the last year (since Logan) and this is the finest entry yet.

This genre tends to be overrated, in my opinion. They always gush over big-budget, superhero movies and they always disappoint me. I'm not saying they aren't entertaining, but they are nowhere near as good as they are made out to be. I expect Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade and wind up getting Gremlins 2 instead. You may recall that I had similar feelings towards Wonder Woman... :lipsrsealed:

Incidentally, Wonder Woman was actually one of the better big-budget, superhero movies, but I wasn't the least bit moved by it. It's just a really hot chick running around Europe kicking the shit out of German soldiers. Fun to watch, but hardly Schindler's List.

If I seem bitter, it's because I am. I resent all this money being spent on superhero action movies.

Ethereal
02-28-2018, 12:32 PM
...:laugh:

Okay. I will leave you to your prejudices then. :grin:

Ignoring skin color = prejudice

Interesting theory.

:grin:

stjames1_53
02-28-2018, 02:46 PM
When in the hell did movies stop being just movies...................I don't do SJW flicks................probably wont do this one either

Cletus
02-28-2018, 03:06 PM
Obviously, if you're a Trump fan, you're going to hate this movie on every level.

Why is that?

Safety
02-28-2018, 05:16 PM
Have you seen it, Safety? I was particularly interested in your opinion.

I was not planning on seeing it, but my son wanted to watch it, so I took him last Sunday. All in all it was a good movie, on par with what to expect from Marvel in regards to them keeping in line with the comics. There were several parts where the comments made were not necessary, but that is to be expected in the political we are in today.

IMPress Polly
02-28-2018, 05:24 PM
Ethereal wrote:
This genre tends to be overrated, in my opinion. They always gush over big-budget, superhero movies and they always disappoint me. I'm not saying they aren't entertaining, but they are nowhere near as good as they are made out to be. I expect Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade and wind up getting Gremlins 2 instead. You may recall that I had similar feelings towards Wonder Woman... :lipsrsealed:

Incidentally, Wonder Woman was actually one of the better big-budget, superhero movies, but I wasn't the least bit moved by it. It's just a really hot chick running around Europe kicking the shit out of German soldiers. Fun to watch, but hardly Schindler's List.

If I seem bitter, it's because I am. I resent all this money being spent on superhero action movies.

All I can tell you is that it beat out my expectations in every area.

I have a very different take on Wonder Woman incidentally, though. I think it was the most popular with my generation for a reason: because it is, allegorically, the story of my generation. It's the story of one who grows up in peace and prosperity, only to have that disrupted by a plane crash that leads directly into a "war without end" (sound familiar?), whereupon one goes on to learn that the world actually kind of sucks, people are dishonest and cruel and defeatist and even pacifists aren't sincere, and find yourself challenged by the lure of cynicism resultantly. How do you navigate that? How do you shed your naivety without devolving into cynicism and misanthropy? That's how I read it anyway.


Ignoring skin color = prejudice

Interesting theory.

:grin:

I was talking about your predetermined opinion of the movie. :wink: Though I was amused by the citation of MLK to justify that prejudice. That was sufficiently arrogant to be hilarious, I felt. :tongue:


St. James wrote:
When in the hell did movies stop being just movies...................I don't do SJW flicks................probably wont do this one either

Your presence at the theater will be sorely missed. :wink:

Mister D
02-28-2018, 07:09 PM
I was not planning on seeing it, but my son wanted to watch it, so I took him last Sunday. All in all it was a good movie, on par with what to expect from Marvel in regards to them keeping in line with the comics. There were several parts where the comments made were not necessary, but that is to be expected in the political we are in today.
Do you think it captured the essence of blackness?

Peter1469
02-28-2018, 07:16 PM
It sounds like a great movie to watch when I am flying to Europe on a 7 hour flight. And that is not a dig at the movie. The last movie that I saw not in an airplane was the Lone Survivor.

Ethereal
03-01-2018, 02:26 PM
All I can tell you is that it beat out my expectations in every area.

I have a very different take on Wonder Woman incidentally, though. I think it was the most popular with my generation for a reason: because it is, allegorically, the story of my generation. It's the story of one who grows up in peace and prosperity, only to have that disrupted by a plane crash that leads directly into a "war without end" (sound familiar?), whereupon one goes on to learn that the world actually kind of sucks, people are dishonest and cruel and defeatist and even pacifists aren't sincere, and find yourself challenged by the lure of cynicism resultantly. How do you navigate that? How do you shed your naivety without devolving into cynicism and misanthropy? That's how I read it anyway.

I'm pretty sure we're the same generation.

Anyway, those questions may have been asked by the movie, but it provided no meaningful examination or answer. It just posed a problem (in the form of cartoonishly evil Germans) and then solved it through formulaic ass-kicking. In other words, it was just another big-budget, superhero film. The fact that it may have had some semblance of a subtext does not really change that.


I was talking about your predetermined opinion of the movie. :wink: Though I was amused by the citation of MLK to justify that prejudice. That was sufficiently arrogant to be hilarious, I felt. :tongue:

Why is it arrogant? MLK told us not to judge people by their skin color and that's what I'm doing. I don't care how many "black people" a movie has in it because the skin color of the people in a movie does not influence how I feel about it. My "prejudice" towards the film is based on historical evidence and trends, not skin color. That is why I said MLK would approve.

IMPress Polly
03-01-2018, 02:54 PM
Ethereal wrote:
Anyway, those questions may have been asked by the movie, but it provided no meaningful examination or answer. It just posed a problem (in the form of cartoonishly evil Germans) and then solved it through formulaic ass-kicking. In other words, it was just another big-budget, superhero film. The fact that it may have had some semblance of a subtext does not really change that.

The film's conclusion is, in essence, that we have to both judge people individually and try to influence the direction of things for the better. I think that conclusion is simplistic and has real limits, but is a good place to start.