Members banned from this thread: Cigar and Carygrant


User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 54

Thread: Moral vs. Legal Rights

  1. #1
    Original Ranter
    Points: 298,347, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    416638
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    118,071
    Points
    298,347
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,346
    Thanked 53,583x in 36,517 Posts
    Mentioned
    1102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Moral vs. Legal Rights

    Some of our members have let their silly animus toward religion lead them over a logical cliff. I thought it might be helpful to explain to them the difference between moral and legal rights.

    ---
    Snip

    The distinction drawn between moral rights and legal rights as two separate categories of rights is of fundamental importance to understanding the basis and potential application of human rights. Legal rights refer to all those rights found within existing legal codes. A legal right is a right that enjoys the recognition and protection of the law. Questions as to its existence can be resolved by simply locating the relevant legal instrument or piece of legislation. A legal right cannot be said to exist prior to its passing into law and the limits of its validity are set by the jurisdiction of the body which passed the relevant legislation. An example of a legal right would be my daughter’s legal right to receive an adequate education, as enshrined within the United Kingdom’s Education Act (1944). Suffice it to say, that the exercise of this right is limited to the United Kingdom. My daughter has no legal right to receive an adequate education from a school board in Southern California. Legal positivists argue that the only rights that can be said to legitimately exist are legal rights, rights that originate within a legal system. On this view, moral rights are not rights in the strict sense, but are better thought of as moral claims, which may or may not eventually be assimilated within national or international law. For a legal positivist, such as the 19th. Century legal philosopher Jeremy Bentham, there can be no such thing as human rights existing prior to, or independently from legal codification. For a positivist determining the existence of rights is no more complicated than locating the relevant legal statute or precedent. In stark contrast, moral rights are rights that, it is claimed, exist prior to and independently from their legal counterparts. The existence and validity of a moral right is not deemed to be dependent upon the actions of jurists and legislators. Many people argued, for example, that the black majority in apartheid South Africa possessed a moral right to full political participation in that country’s political system, even though there existed no such legal right. What is interesting is that many people framed their opposition to apartheid in rights terms. What many found so morally repugnant about apartheid South Africa was precisely its denial of numerous fundamental moral rights, including the rights not to be discriminated against on grounds of colour and rights to political participation, to the majority of that country’s inhabitants. This particular line of opposition and protest could only be pursued because of a belief in the existence and validity of moral rights. A belief that fundamental rights which may or may not have received legal recognition elsewhere, remained utterly valid and morally compelling even, and perhaps especially, in those countries whose legal systems had not recognized these rights. A rights-based opposition to apartheid South Africa could not have been initiated and maintained by appeal to legal rights, for obvious reasons. No one could legitimately argue that the legal political rights of non-white South Africans were being violated under apartheid, since no such legal rights existed. The systematic denial of such rights did, however, constitute a gross violation of those peoples’ fundamental moral rights.


    From the above example it should be clear that human rights cannot be reduced to, or exclusively identified with legal rights. The legal positivist’s account of justified law excludes the possibility of condemning such systems as apartheid from a rights perspective. It might, therefore, appear tempting to draw the conclusion that human rights are best identified as moral rights.

    http://www.iep.utm.edu/hum-rts/#SH3a
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mister D For This Useful Post:

    Alif Qadr (01-22-2013),Deadwood (01-22-2013),RightWingExtremist (01-22-2013)

  3. #2
    Points: 9,827, Level: 23
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 223
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassSocialVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Alif Qadr's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    1058
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    617
    Points
    9,827
    Level
    23
    Thanks Given
    413
    Thanked 254x in 179 Posts
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What a sound post MisterD. It is my contention that moral rights or birthrights also known as God-given rights are superior to legal ones because of the facts you listed d in your post above.
    To me it is odd, when Marxists/Leftistists/Liberals argue on moral grounds, such as homosexual marriage, the recognition of homosexuality as a viable and legitimate pursuit, etc. At the same token, they appeal to a system of jurisprudence to enforceable enact and execute laws and legal statutes for the same.
    This is exactly what Barack Hussein Obama did in his second inaugural address yesterday. He appealed to emotionalism, i.e., moral conviction and stated his pursuit of legal remedy for immigration and the furtherance of a homosexual agenda. A piece of work that one is but I digress.

    Anyway, great post and it simplifies and clarifies the difference between moral and legal rights. This is why I oppose Civil Rights so vehemently. Civil Rights are nothing more than a series of legal statutes that can be overturned at the whim of the SCOTUS which is completely unreliable to begin with. Why on Earth people would place their trust and faith in a system that is subject to the dictates and whims of those who control it is absolutely beyond me but many place their faith and allegiance in such a scenario. I guess some people will never learn.
    مندوب المختار مختصة هي تستحق ابنه الحكمة من أطفال رحلة ليلية الثناء
    Alif Qadr Muhktar Muhammad Bashir ibn Bani Isr
    باسم "الله الرحمن الرحيم"
    In the name of Allah The Beneficent The Merciful

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Alif Qadr For This Useful Post:

    Mister D (01-22-2013)

  5. #3
    Points: 668,112, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433941
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,166
    Points
    668,112
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,224
    Thanked 81,530x in 55,047 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Another section of interest to me and relative to some ongoing discussions on the forum:

    Human rights rest upon moral universalism and the belief in the existence of a truly universal moral community comprising all human beings. Moral universalism posits the existence of rationally identifiable trans-cultural and trans-historical moral truths. The origins of moral universalism within Europe are typically associated with the writings of Aristotle and the Stoics. Thus, in his Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle unambiguously expounds an argument in support of the existence of a natural moral order. This natural order ought to provide the basis for all truly rational systems of justice. An appeal to the natural order provides a set of comprehensive and potentially universal criteria for evaluating the legitimacy of actual ‘man-made’ legal systems. In distinguishing between ‘natural justice’ and ‘legal justice’, Aristotle writes, ‘the natural is that which has the same validity everywhere and does not depend upon acceptance.’ (Nicomachean Ethics, 189) Thus, the criteria for determining a truly rational system of justice pre-exist social and historical conventions. ‘Natural justice’ pre-exists specific social and political configurations. The means for determining the form and content of natural justice is the exercise of reason free from the distorting effects of mere prejudice or desire. This basic idea was similarly expressed by the Roman Stoics, such as Cicero and Seneca, who argued that morality originated in the rational will of God and the existence of a cosmic city from which one could discern a natural, moral law whose authority transcended all local legal codes. The Stoics’ argued that this ethically universal code imposed upon all of us a duty to obey the will of god. The Stoics thereby posited the existence of a universal moral community effected through our shared relationship with god. The belief in the existence of a universal moral community was maintained in Europe by Christianity over the ensuing centuries. While some have discerned intimations towards the notion of rights in the writings of Aristotle, the Stoics, and Christian theologians, a concept of rights approximating that of the contemporary idea of human rights most clearly emerges during the 17th. And 18th. Centuries in Europe and the so-called doctrine of natural law.
    How good, how just posited legal law is is determined by how well it conforms to natural moral law.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Alif Qadr (01-22-2013),Mister D (01-22-2013)

  7. #4
    Points: 668,112, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433941
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,166
    Points
    668,112
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,224
    Thanked 81,530x in 55,047 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigar View Post
    Everyone has the right to whine as much as they want on the internet, after getting beat twice in an Election.

    Thrust me, Progressives had to deal with two years a Bush, and spend 4 to clean up his mess; and we're still cleaning up his $#@!.
    You don't understand what we're discussing, do you? The difference between natural moral law and artificial legal law.

  8. #5
    Original Ranter
    Points: 298,347, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    416638
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    118,071
    Points
    298,347
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,346
    Thanked 53,583x in 36,517 Posts
    Mentioned
    1102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alif Qadr View Post
    What a sound post MisterD. It is my contention that moral rights or birthrights also known as God-given rights are superior to legal ones because of the facts you listed d in your post above.
    To me it is odd, when Marxists/Leftistists/Liberals argue on moral grounds, such as homosexual marriage, the recognition of homosexuality as a viable and legitimate pursuit, etc. At the same token, they appeal to a system of jurisprudence to enforceable enact and execute laws and legal statutes for the same.
    This is exactly what Barack Hussein Obama did in his second inaugural address yesterday. He appealed to emotionalism, i.e., moral conviction and stated his pursuit of legal remedy for immigration and the furtherance of a homosexual agenda. A piece of work that one is but I digress.

    Anyway, great post and it simplifies and clarifies the difference between moral and legal rights. This is why I oppose Civil Rights so vehemently. Civil Rights are nothing more than a series of legal statutes that can be overturned at the whim of the SCOTUS which is completely unreliable to begin with. Why on Earth people would place their trust and faith in a system that is subject to the dictates and whims of those who control it is absolutely beyond me but many place their faith and allegiance in such a scenario. I guess some people will never learn.
    Don't give me the credit! It's from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

    That's exactly what I mean. Almost everyone makes appeals to the way things ought to be. Almost all of us make appeals to moral law when we insist on enacting positive law or making changes to existing positive law. Moral law is the foundation. Otherwise, it's as you say: human beings would be at the dictates and whims of those in power.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  9. #6
    Original Ranter
    Points: 298,347, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    416638
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    118,071
    Points
    298,347
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,346
    Thanked 53,583x in 36,517 Posts
    Mentioned
    1102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Another section of interest to me and relative to some ongoing discussions on the forum:



    How good, how just posited legal law is is determined by how well it conforms to natural moral law.
    Exactly.

    I highly doubt the members in question realized they were dismissing the basis of human rights altogether when they dismissed theories of natural rights but I found such lazy and irresponsible thinking disturbing.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  10. #7
    Points: 668,112, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433941
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,166
    Points
    668,112
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,224
    Thanked 81,530x in 55,047 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Arguments from might is right are always dismissive of arguments from right is might. Was going to post this in the other thread as that is exactly how liberals argue from might, from coercion.

  11. #8
    Points: 9,827, Level: 23
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 223
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassSocialVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Alif Qadr's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    1058
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    617
    Points
    9,827
    Level
    23
    Thanks Given
    413
    Thanked 254x in 179 Posts
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigar View Post
    Everyone has the right to whine as much as they want on the internet, after getting beat twice in an Election.

    Thrust me, Progressives had to deal with two years a Bush, and spend 4 to clean up his mess; and we're still cleaning up his $#@!.
    Two years a Bush? Even if you meant two years OF Bush, that is still erroneous being the The Dub was POTUS for eight years, just like your god, Ilios or Helios (Obama).
    Last edited by Alif Qadr; 01-22-2013 at 03:16 PM.
    مندوب المختار مختصة هي تستحق ابنه الحكمة من أطفال رحلة ليلية الثناء
    Alif Qadr Muhktar Muhammad Bashir ibn Bani Isr
    باسم "الله الرحمن الرحيم"
    In the name of Allah The Beneficent The Merciful

  12. #9
    Points: 8,647, Level: 22
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 603
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran5000 Experience Points
    RightWingExtremist's Avatar Member
    Karma
    284
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Orion Arm
    Posts
    162
    Points
    8,647
    Level
    22
    Thanks Given
    80
    Thanked 41x in 28 Posts
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigar View Post
    Everyone has the right to whine as much as they want on the internet, after getting beat twice in an Election.

    Thrust me, Progressives had to deal with two years a Bush, and spend 4 to clean up his mess; and we're still cleaning up his $#@!.
    You can't clean up $#@! with more $#@!. Just fyi.
    It is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough, in the face of opposition, to stand up for it. - A.A. Hodge

    Baseball is like a poker game. Nobody wants to quit when he's losing; nobody wants you to quit when you're ahead. -Jackie Robinson

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to RightWingExtremist For This Useful Post:

    Agravan (01-23-2013)

  14. #10
    Points: 9,827, Level: 23
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 223
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassSocialVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Alif Qadr's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    1058
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    617
    Points
    9,827
    Level
    23
    Thanks Given
    413
    Thanked 254x in 179 Posts
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chris View Post
    arguments from might is right are always dismissive of arguments from right is might. Was going to post this in the other thread as that is exactly how liberals argue from might, from coercion.
    agreed!
    مندوب المختار مختصة هي تستحق ابنه الحكمة من أطفال رحلة ليلية الثناء
    Alif Qadr Muhktar Muhammad Bashir ibn Bani Isr
    باسم "الله الرحمن الرحيم"
    In the name of Allah The Beneficent The Merciful

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts