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Thread: Racism and Systematic Racism: Safety vs MMC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    I'm not interested in any appeals to authority, or other fallacies.
    Of course you aren't interested in the truth. That isn't surprising.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    No it doesn't. It validates that criminal behavior not racism explains Racial disparities in Crime Stats. Oh and then there is more stats that debunk Cody Ross.

    Murder Rates by Race (Black, White, Hispanic, Asian Crime ...

    https://ways-to-die.com/murder-rates-race
    As mentioned already, black-on-black murder is more common than black-on-white, but this is also applicable with other races. Whites and hispanics are considerably more likely to kill members of their own race than to kill members of opposing races, suggesting that warnings of impending race wars are as unfounded as we all hoped.



    Black vs. White Crime Statistics - White Privilege Isn't ...

    https://whiteprivilegeisntreal.org/black-vs-white-crime-statistics · Translate this page
    Black vs White Crime Statistics Conclusion It’s an uncomfortable truth but blacks commit crimes at nearly three times the rate that whites do. Blacks commit 36% of the violent crime in the US even though they are only 13% of the population.



    Criminal Behavior, Not Racism, Explains ‘Racial Disparities’ in Crime Stats


    But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on. Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference.



    A reasonable discussion about blacks and police practices cannot take place without acknowledging the disproportion amount of crime committed by blacks. According to the Department of Justice’s “Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2009,” in the country’s 75 largest counties, blacks committed 62 percent of robberies, 45 percent of assaults and accounted for 57 percent of murder defendants.....snip~


    Based on these stats there is no Systemic racism by Cops on Blacks.


    Mr. Fryer found that blacks were either less likely to be shot or there was no difference between blacks and whites......snip~
    Actually, yes it does. It is a common misinterpretation to use the term "systemic racism" as it meaning that everyone in the system is racist. In fact, systemic racism means almost the opposite. It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them. When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place. For much of the early 20th century, in some parts of the country, that was its primary function. That it might retain some of those proclivities today isn't surprising.

    So let's recap...

    I mentioned "stop and frisk" which has been deemed racist...a police policy.

    Then there's this study....https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pbtss11.pdf, it found that black and Latino drivers are more likely to be searched once they have been pulled over. About 2 percent of white motorists were searched, vs. 6 percent of black drivers and 7 percent of Latinos. And White drivers were both ticketed and searched at lower rates than black and Hispanic drivers.

    There are many more I can reference, but it is not needed because your argument is predicated upon the fallacy that because blacks have a higher “rate” of crime, it correlates to the police interacting with them more, but that isn’t the case as I have shown in numerous case studies. I haven’t even started to argue the systemic racism present once an arrest has been made.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - Jefferson Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Of course you aren't interested in the truth. That isn't surprising.
    The truth is why I’m here. Let’s have more of it and less about your personal inventory of me.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - Jefferson Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    Actually, yes it does. It is a common misinterpretation to use the term "systemic racism" as it meaning that everyone in the system is racist. In fact, systemic racism means almost the opposite. It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them. When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place. For much of the early 20th century, in some parts of the country, that was its primary function. That it might retain some of those proclivities today isn't surprising.

    So let's recap...

    I mentioned "stop and frisk" which has been deemed racist...a police policy.

    Then there's this study....https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pbtss11.pdf, it found that black and Latino drivers are more likely to be searched once they have been pulled over. About 2 percent of white motorists were searched, vs. 6 percent of black drivers and 7 percent of Latinos. And White drivers were both ticketed and searched at lower rates than black and Hispanic drivers.

    There are many more I can reference, but it is not needed because your argument is predicated upon the fallacy that because blacks have a higher “rate” of crime, it correlates to the police interacting with them more, but that isn’t the case as I have shown in numerous case studies. I haven’t even started to argue the systemic racism present once an arrest has been made.
    Actually no it doesn't. You brought up Stop and Frisk. The Problem with that is 2 words. Per Capita. Which was not a Nationwide Policy. Therefore cannot be Deemed as Systemic Racism.


    Stats: Systemic Police Racism Is a Myth.....


    It’s not just about George Floyd, we’re told. It’s the system.


    The way we police America is irretrievably broken. More to the point, it’s racist. African-Americans experience law enforcement differently than other races do — especially white people.....snip~


    There is no fallacy that blacks have a higher crime rate. That is just a fact. They do.


    “A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.”


    For starters, she looks at the number of people fatally shot by police officers. In 2019, that was 1,004. Most of these people “were armed or otherwise dangerous,” Mac Donald said.


    “African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015,” she wrote.


    “That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.”



    Yes, but what about unarmed individuals?


    “The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines ‘unarmed’ broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase,” Mac Donald wrote.


    “In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.”



    But surely science bears out that there’s some evidence of systemic differences in use of force against black suspects, right?


    “The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences,” Mac Donald wrote. “The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is ‘no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,’ they concluded.


    Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.”


    You don’t have to look too far: “Most states’ police forces killed black people at a higher rate per capita than white people, with Illinois, New York and Washington D.C. carrying some of the largest discrepancies by state. D.C., with a black population of nearly 50 percent, had 88 percent of all police killings be against black Americans — a discrepancy of over 38 percentage points. Rhode Island had the largest discrepancy of 44 points, albeit with a much smaller sample size of four police killings in 2019 — two of them being African American.”



    How the police came to interact with these individuals mattered not at all. For this statistic to be as meaningful as the study’s author seems to want it to be, we would have to assume that police officers were allowed to shoot, at random, whoever they wanted. Then, yes, we would have a racism problem as serious as the title implies.


    We’d also have a much more serious problem in that police were randomly shooting people.....snip~


    https://www.westernjournal.com/stats...e-racism-myth/


    There are many more I can reference, but it is not needed because your argument is predicated upon the fallacy that because blacks have a higher “rate” of crime, it correlates to the police interacting with them more, but that isn’t the case as I have shown in numerous case studies.....snip~


    Yes that is a fact that has to be taken into account for. Black crime with 13% of the population. So again it is not a fallacy. As there isn't much difference when it comes to contact with the police. For whites.


    But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on.
    Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference......snip~



    When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place......snip~


    Nice try.....but Police reforms changed the modern criminal justice system.


    Some of the reforms. Community Policing, Appoint Independent Prosecutors, Set Up civilian Complaint review boards, New Ordinances, New Laws, Organizational reform, Police taking classes on Conflict resolution, De-escalation, Diversity of Officers and in 2010, Focus on treatment of minorities.


    Oh and I haven't even brought up juveniles. So I have plenty more to counter any data you bring up.


    Btw Concerning Motorists.


    To show that the police are stopping to many members of a group, you need to know, at a minimum, the rate of lawbreaking among that group—the so-called violator benchmark. Only if the rate of stops or arrests greatly exceeds the rate of criminal behavior should our suspicions be raised.


    White motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    The truth is why I’m here. Let’s have more of it and less about your personal inventory of me.
    Yes lets have more of it. Like with Populations in NYC. Wherein Hispanics were counted as white.Which your source was missing.


    I have to break for now. Get some sleep and go to work. Will continue on when I get back this morning.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Actually no it doesn't. You brought up Stop and Frisk. The Problem with that is 2 words. Per Capita. Which was not a Nationwide Policy. Therefore cannot be Deemed as Systemic Racism.


    Stats: Systemic Police Racism Is a Myth.....


    It’s not just about George Floyd, we’re told. It’s the system.


    The way we police America is irretrievably broken. More to the point, it’s racist. African-Americans experience law enforcement differently than other races do — especially white people.....snip~


    There is no fallacy that blacks have a higher crime rate. That is just a fact. They do.


    “A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.”


    For starters, she looks at the number of people fatally shot by police officers. In 2019, that was 1,004. Most of these people “were armed or otherwise dangerous,” Mac Donald said.


    “African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015,” she wrote.


    “That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.”



    Yes, but what about unarmed individuals?


    “The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines ‘unarmed’ broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase,” Mac Donald wrote.


    “In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.”



    But surely science bears out that there’s some evidence of systemic differences in use of force against black suspects, right?


    “The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences,” Mac Donald wrote. “The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is ‘no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,’ they concluded.


    Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.”


    You don’t have to look too far: “Most states’ police forces killed black people at a higher rate per capita than white people, with Illinois, New York and Washington D.C. carrying some of the largest discrepancies by state. D.C., with a black population of nearly 50 percent, had 88 percent of all police killings be against black Americans — a discrepancy of over 38 percentage points. Rhode Island had the largest discrepancy of 44 points, albeit with a much smaller sample size of four police killings in 2019 — two of them being African American.”



    How the police came to interact with these individuals mattered not at all. For this statistic to be as meaningful as the study’s author seems to want it to be, we would have to assume that police officers were allowed to shoot, at random, whoever they wanted. Then, yes, we would have a racism problem as serious as the title implies.


    We’d also have a much more serious problem in that police were randomly shooting people.....snip~


    https://www.westernjournal.com/stats...e-racism-myth/


    There are many more I can reference, but it is not needed because your argument is predicated upon the fallacy that because blacks have a higher “rate” of crime, it correlates to the police interacting with them more, but that isn’t the case as I have shown in numerous case studies.....snip~


    Yes that is a fact that has to be taken into account for. Black crime with 13% of the population. So again it is not a fallacy. As there isn't much difference when it comes to contact with the police. For whites.


    But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on.
    Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference......snip~



    When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place......snip~


    Nice try.....but Police reforms changed the modern criminal justice system.


    Some of the reforms. Community Policing, Appoint Independent Prosecutors, Set Up civilian Complaint review boards, New Ordinances, New Laws, Organizational reform, Police taking classes on Conflict resolution, De-escalation, Diversity of Officers and in 2010, Focus on treatment of minorities.


    Oh and I haven't even brought up juveniles. So I have plenty more to counter any data you bring up.


    Btw Concerning Motorists.


    To show that the police are stopping to many members of a group, you need to know, at a minimum, the rate of lawbreaking among that group—the so-called violator benchmark. Only if the rate of stops or arrests greatly exceeds the rate of criminal behavior should our suspicions be raised.


    White motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos.
    No, "per capita" has no bearing on whether or not stop and frisk was a racist policy. You can implement a stop and frisk policy and not have it trend towards being racist, that is solely dependent on the agency implementing the strategy. Again, it also doesn't matter whether or not it is a "nationwide" policy, systemic racism that plagues an agency is still systemic racism. You don't get to say, "Hey look, Wichita doesn't have a police force that has systemic racism; therefore, it doesn't exist anywhere." I didn't say that blacks having a higher crime rate is a fallacy, I said using the rate to make the argument is a fallacy.

    Yet another study to support my argument says this....
    "Instead of approaching the study with a point of view to be proved or disproved, the researchers set out on a fact-finding mission. They spent two years analyzing the two-year database of 603 firearm homicides by police. They tagged and coded the narratives to put each shooting into context, and then ran the detailed results through a computer program. “The computer looked at the variations in the data and grouped the victims into categories,” says Miller. “It turned out that there were seven categories that fit the statistics.”The seven subtypes of police shootings set apart victims who were armed (with guns or knives) or unarmed, victims who were violent or non-violent, and other crucial details. Among those who were unarmed and appeared to show no objective threat to police, nearly two-thirds of the victims were Hispanic or Black." https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...e-preventable/

    You argue that crime and suspect behavior determine police interaction, well, that isn't an argument anyone is making, that is common sense. However, when that officer profiles a black person differently than a white person, regardless of "crime rate" that is systemic racism. They are making a judgment on a person based solely on their skin color. Think about it like this; if we were in South Africa and the majority (black) is using systemic racism to oppress the minority (white), I would be arguing the same point, my position would not change based upon the color of the person that is doing the oppressing nor the oppressed.

    Police reforms are a good start, but they hardly addressed the issues we are debating. Having moderate changes is a feel-good thing to write about, but the famous quote from Benjamin Franklin says it all, "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer."

    To your last point, no, you do not need to know the "rate of lawbreaking among that group" when talking about motorists, because it has no bearing on the civil liberties bestowed upon us all. Nobody should be profiled or stopped because they share the same skin color as someone that breaks the law, that isn't how the system was supposed to be designed. We are not a "paper's please" society and I hope I read your post wrong because it seemed like that was what you were advocating for. This study based off of the federal government's data shows the disparity in how people are stopped in their vehicles, broken down by race. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...atistics-show/
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - Jefferson Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Yes lets have more of it. Like with Populations in NYC. Wherein Hispanics were counted as white.Which your source was missing.


    I have to break for now. Get some sleep and go to work. Will continue on when I get back this morning.
    The majority of Hispanics are a mixed-race, so if they self-identify as white, black, or Asian, that is the sole decision of the person answering the question. It holds no bearing on the discussion at hand.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - Jefferson Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    The majority of Hispanics are a mixed-race, so if they self-identify as white, black, or Asian, that is the sole decision of the person answering the question. It holds no bearing on the discussion at hand.
    Doesn't matter what they Self Identify. The Stats you gave from your link. Doesn't include Origin. Nor did it point out that Hispanics were counted as white. Which this was correlated with your stop and frisk law in NYC. Which You brought it up.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Doesn't matter what they Self Identify. The Stats you gave from your link. Doesn't include Origin. Nor did it point out that Hispanics were counted as white. Which this was correlated with your stop and frisk law in NYC. Which You brought it up.
    Determining whether or not someone that is Hispanic and can be counted as white has no relevance to this debate.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - Jefferson Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    Determining whether or not someone that is Hispanic and can be counted as white has no relevance to this debate.
    Yes it did, when Stop and Frisk wasn't implemented in all of NYC and was targeting areas of High Crime. While looking at population. It was a false account of the population.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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