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Thread: The American West History Thread

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pickle View Post
    I was actually thinking of starting a whole sub-forum but let's see how much interest we get.

    Well we were talking about which movie portrayed Wyatt Earp in the most accurate light.

    In the movie Tombstone Wyatt Earp was portrayed as a noble law man that has resettled in Tombstone to seek not fame but fortune and especially to leave the badge behind.

    In the movie Wyatt Earp, Earp is portrayed as someone who viewed Tombstone as a place where a law man can make real money.

    The reality is that both movies left out A LOT of history with regards to Wyatt. Probably because no one would watch a 7 hour movie but also because a lot of what Earp did was not really "Hollywood" acceptable. He certainly wasn't the "Hollywood Hero" he made himself out to be on all of the sets of the original movies back in the 20's and 30's.

    For example Wyatt's formative years were pretty wild. From being a coachman to a buffalo hunter... Even before he married his first wife, he was a frequent pimp and body guard to the ladies of the night. And he actually married a couple of them. Wyatt was engaged in just about everything, from prostitution, horse thievery and prize fighting (both fighting and refereeing). This continued after Priscilla's death until which point he was going to be hanged for stealing a horse and he "Straightened" his life out. All he really did was quit drinking because he went on as a law man in Dodge but also had several side businesses in transport, saloons and brothels.

    Tombstone wasn't Wyatt's first option for riches. He tried Deadwood. Not for the gold but for timber to sell to the miners. Unfortunately all the trees on the timber lease he had were green so him and Morgan did a little more buffalo hunting before making their way into Tombstone.

    Once there the Earp brothers wasted no time in becoming the law. The law in those days meant everything. Controlled everything. They were the original mafia and only a very select few can be pointed to as having been completely "clean".

    The most famous lawmen of the west... Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, Bill Hickock, Bill Tilghman... These were all men who were professional gunfighters but figured out how to do it legally. Then reaped all of the rewards of being a gunfighter on top of the rewards for being lawmen. Then all of the backend $#@! they were involved in.

    Wyatt, when he and his brothers moved down into Tombstone came across an ingrained criminal entity ironically called "The Cowboys". They were literally like the Bloods or Crips. Just a bunch of dudes who when they weren't doing normal duties as cowboys were rustling cattle, mostly from Mexico, but also involved in robberies of trains and stages. They were basically a rival mafia gang and the Earps were moving in on them only they had badges.

    Well their shared criminal activities inevitably ran into each other. The ranchers started to pay the Earps money directly to take a special interest in making sure their herds were protected. So they did. Which directly conflicted with the Cowboy's operation.

    Lots of words were said and the gunfight at the OK Corall was the result. It's what happened after that gunfight that really sums up who Wyatt Earp was. You see after the gunfight...Morgan Earp was assassinated while playing pool in a bar. After his younger brother was killed Wyatt exercised the most blatant and visibile abuse of the law utilizing his status as a Marshall to hunt down and kill those suspected of his brother's murder.

    After that he lit out to California and laid low until all the warrants kinda just died away.

    Wyatt Earp wasn't an American hero. He was just smart and tough enough to make the law work for him in a lawless land.
    A fun fact: No one had heard of Earp until the late 1920's when a movie was made of him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    A fun fact: No one had heard of Earp until the late 1920's when a movie was made of him.
    Awe. Nice of you to join and add to this discussion....nothing whatsoever... Not only is your statement categorically false it has nothing to do with the topic.

    You can rethink your contribution to this Forum and this thread now.
    I find your lack of faith...disturbing...

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    Six years ago there was an auction here in Scottsdale of several firearms alleged to have belonged to the Earp brothers. The centerpiece of the collection was a pistol that was supposed to have belonged to and been carried by Wyatt at about the time of the O.K. Corral gunfight. It sold for $225,000. Not that I was bidding on it or anything - the winning bid came from a collector in New Mexico, which I'm assuming was @Cletus - but I was not impressed with its provenance or the fact that quite a few parts appeared to have been replaced and the serial number filed off. (Not suspicious at all.)

    There were 32 boxes of research material, photos, documents and memorabilia, all from the estate of writer Glenn Boyer. There was a pistol and shotgun that had belonged to Virgil, and the provenance on those was much better, as was that of a cap and ball pistol that was carried by the Earp brothers' grandfather when he served as a town marshal.

    Something kind of funny happened when I was managing a copy shop for a year back in the early '90s. There's a gentleman living here whose name is Wyatt Earp and he's the great-great grandnephew or something of the original. He's at least a part-time actor, appearing in stage plays written by his wife Terry in which he plays his famous relative, so he's got the mustache and actually looks a great deal like him. So he comes in to order some copying and gives his name as "Wyatt Stapp" and I just looked at him for a few seconds and smiled, knowing that Wyatt Earp was named after his father's commanding officer in the Mexican-American War, Wyatt Berry Stapp. I guess if I'd had to deal with people's reactions to my name for my entire life I'd use an alias, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pickle View Post
    Awe. Nice of you to join and add to this discussion....nothing whatsoever...
    That's your forte, and has been for years.
    You can rethink your contribution to this Forum and this thread now.
    Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    That's your forte, and has been for years.

    Why?
    It was an honest mistake on Ethereal's part - not a big deal. Please let's not derail the thread over it.
    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” - Robert E. Howard

    "Only a rank degenerate would drive 1,500 miles across Texas and not eat a chicken fried steak." - Larry McMurtry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pickle View Post
    I was actually thinking of starting a whole sub-forum but let's see how much interest we get.

    Well we were talking about which movie portrayed Wyatt Earp in the most accurate light.

    In the movie Tombstone Wyatt Earp was portrayed as a noble law man that has resettled in Tombstone to seek not fame but fortune and especially to leave the badge behind.

    In the movie Wyatt Earp, Earp is portrayed as someone who viewed Tombstone as a place where a law man can make real money.

    The reality is that both movies left out A LOT of history with regards to Wyatt. Probably because no one would watch a 7 hour movie but also because a lot of what Earp did was not really "Hollywood" acceptable. He certainly wasn't the "Hollywood Hero" he made himself out to be on all of the sets of the original movies back in the 20's and 30's.

    For example Wyatt's formative years were pretty wild. From being a coachman to a buffalo hunter... Even before he married his first wife, he was a frequent pimp and body guard to the ladies of the night. And he actually married a couple of them. Wyatt was engaged in just about everything, from prostitution, horse thievery and prize fighting (both fighting and refereeing). This continued after Priscilla's death until which point he was going to be hanged for stealing a horse and he "Straightened" his life out. All he really did was quit drinking because he went on as a law man in Dodge but also had several side businesses in transport, saloons and brothels.

    Tombstone wasn't Wyatt's first option for riches. He tried Deadwood. Not for the gold but for timber to sell to the miners. Unfortunately all the trees on the timber lease he had were green so him and Morgan did a little more buffalo hunting before making their way into Tombstone.

    Once there the Earp brothers wasted no time in becoming the law. The law in those days meant everything. Controlled everything. They were the original mafia and only a very select few can be pointed to as having been completely "clean".

    The most famous lawmen of the west... Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, Bill Hickock, Bill Tilghman... These were all men who were professional gunfighters but figured out how to do it legally. Then reaped all of the rewards of being a gunfighter on top of the rewards for being lawmen. Then all of the backend $#@! they were involved in.

    Wyatt, when he and his brothers moved down into Tombstone came across an ingrained criminal entity ironically called "The Cowboys". They were literally like the Bloods or Crips. Just a bunch of dudes who when they weren't doing normal duties as cowboys were rustling cattle, mostly from Mexico, but also involved in robberies of trains and stages. They were basically a rival mafia gang and the Earps were moving in on them only they had badges.

    Well their shared criminal activities inevitably ran into each other. The ranchers started to pay the Earps money directly to take a special interest in making sure their herds were protected. So they did. Which directly conflicted with the Cowboy's operation.

    Lots of words were said and the gunfight at the OK Corall was the result. It's what happened after that gunfight that really sums up who Wyatt Earp was. You see after the gunfight...Morgan Earp was assassinated while playing pool in a bar. After his younger brother was killed Wyatt exercised the most blatant and visibile abuse of the law utilizing his status as a Marshall to hunt down and kill those suspected of his brother's murder.

    After that he lit out to California and laid low until all the warrants kinda just died away.

    Wyatt Earp wasn't an American hero. He was just smart and tough enough to make the law work for him in a lawless land.
    The Cowboys represented the cattle interests. Didn't the Earps represent the farming interests? The cattle industries wanted open ranges to move their cows and the farmers wanted to fence their land off and that was how the Cowboy and Earps came to their antagonistic relationship? Any truth to that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    The Cowboys represented the cattle interests. Didn't the Earps represent the farming interests? The cattle industries wanted open ranges to move their cows and the farmers wanted to fence their land off and that was how the Cowboy and Earps came to their antagonistic relationship? Any truth to that?
    The Cowboys were essentially an organized gang, involved with rustling, robberies and all manner of lawlessness. They certainly had their allies and apologists among the ranchers - those whose cows the Cowboys had been paid to leave alone, and those who bought rustled Mexican cattle from them - but they had them in town as well, including the county Sheriff Johnny Behan and the merchants who benefited from their free spending ways. At that time and place the term "cowboy" was synonymous with "rustler"; honest men who made their living in the saddle were known as "ranch-hands" or "stockmen". Countless Western movies have used the "ranchers vs. farmers" or "cattlemen vs. settlers" theme as a plot device, and some films about the Earps may have done so, too, but from all reliable accounts the animus of the Earps toward the Cowboys lay in the former's genuine interest in putting an end to the lawlessness - the rustling (at least on this side of the border) and the strong arm robberies of stages.
    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” - Robert E. Howard

    "Only a rank degenerate would drive 1,500 miles across Texas and not eat a chicken fried steak." - Larry McMurtry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    The Cowboys represented the cattle interests. Didn't the Earps represent the farming interests? The cattle industries wanted open ranges to move their cows and the farmers wanted to fence their land off and that was how the Cowboy and Earps came to their antagonistic relationship? Any truth to that?
    More like the Business interests within town. Not a whole lot of farming in that area of Southern Arizona. Many of the business interests were being robbed and extorted by the Cowboys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pickle View Post
    Awe. Nice of you to join and add to this discussion....nothing whatsoever... Not only is your statement categorically false it has nothing to do with the topic.

    You can rethink your contribution to this Forum and this thread now.
    The thread is about the West.

    The facts are facts.

    You can rethink your knowledge of history.

    Sorry for bursting your bubble.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    Six years ago there was an auction here in Scottsdale of several firearms alleged to have belonged to the Earp brothers. The centerpiece of the collection was a pistol that was supposed to have belonged to and been carried by Wyatt at about the time of the O.K. Corral gunfight. It sold for $225,000. Not that I was bidding on it or anything - the winning bid came from a collector in New Mexico, which I'm assuming was @Cletus - but I was not impressed with its provenance or the fact that quite a few parts appeared to have been replaced and the serial number filed off. (Not suspicious at all.)
    Although I guess it would be kind of cool to own a gun carried by Wyatt Earp, I just have no interest in that kind of gun or that kind of shooting. I have never bought a gun just to own as a "collector's piece". I know some people who have pretty extensive collections like that, including a guy who has a Smith and Wesson Model 1, but it is just not for me.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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