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Thread: Nazis, Fascists, Adolph, Gestapo, analogies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    It's like Machiavelli's The Prince in that regard.
    That's a very interesting read. There is something a bit diabolical in it. 'Better to be feared than loved'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    True, but that is difficult because fascism took many forms in Italy, Germany, Spain, and other places, each somewhat unique to the time and place. Common threads among them would be a rejection of modernism including liberalism, democracy, and capitalism. and a belief that everything is subservient to the state and in central planning. The problem is that in the 1930s, that also describes communism. But there we can distinguish the two in one being nationalistic and the other cosmopolitan. A further problem is that at that time, FDR and some in his administration admired fascism and communism for their central planning, an admiration that was mutual.
    The way in which you're framing that is a bit disingenuous. Any admiration came from a place of seeing counties devastated by the depression, creating programs like FDR's New Deal, which was the first, that put citizens back to work in building, farming and road construction that generated and economy and gave people a sense of value. Such admiration came to a quick end when fascism took hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    The way in which you're framing that is a bit disingenuous. Any admiration came from a place of seeing counties devastated by the depression, creating programs like FDR's New Deal, which was the first, that put citizens back to work in building, farming and road construction that generated and economy and gave people a sense of value. Such admiration came to a quick end when fascism took hold.
    It's your slant that's disingenuous for the admiration among FDR, Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin was mutual.

    Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt

    On May 7, 1933, just two months after the inauguration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the New York Times reporter Anne O’Hare McCormick wrote that the atmosphere in Washington was “strangely reminiscent of Rome in the first weeks after the march of the Blackshirts, of Moscow at the beginning of the Five‐​Year Plan.… America today literally asks for orders.” The Roosevelt administration, she added, “envisages a federation of industry, labor and government after the fashion of the corporative State as it exists in Italy.”

    ...With our knowledge of the horrors of the Holocaust and World War II, we find it almost impossible to consider such claims dispassionately. But in the 1930s, when everyone agreed that capitalism had failed, it wasn’t hard to find common themes and mutual admiration in Washington, Berlin, and Rome, not to mention Moscow....

    ...throughout the ‘30s, intellectuals and journalists noted “areas of convergence among the New Deal, Fascism, and National Socialism.” All three were seen as transcending “classic Anglo‐​French liberalism” — individualism, free markets, decentralized power.

    ...American Progressives studied at German universities, Schivelbusch writes, and “came to appreciate the Hegelian theory of a strong state and Prussian militarism as the most efficient way of organizing modern societies that could no longer be ruled by anarchic liberal principles.”...

    ...In the North American Review in 1934, the progressive writer Roger Shaw described the New Deal as “Fascist means to gain liberal ends.” He wasn’t hallucinating. FDR’s adviser Rexford Tugwell wrote in his diary that Mussolini had done “many of the things which seem to me necessary.” Lorena Hickok, a close confidante of Eleanor Roosevelt who lived in the White House for a spell, wrote approvingly of a local official who had said, “If [President] Roosevelt were actually a dictator, we might get somewhere.” She added that if she were younger, she’d like to lead “the Fascist Movement in the United States.” At the National Recovery Administration (NRA), the cartel‐​creating agency at the heart of the early New Deal, one report declared forthrightly, “The Fascist Principles are very similar to those we have been evolving here in America.”

    Roosevelt himself called Mussolini “admirable” and professed that he was “deeply impressed by what he has accomplished.” The admiration was mutual. In a laudatory review of Roosevelt’s 1933 book Looking Forward, Mussolini wrote, “Reminiscent of Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.… Without question, the mood accompanying this sea change resembles that of Fascism.” The chief Nazi newspaper, Volkischer Beobachter, repeatedly praised “Roosevelt’s adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies” and “the development toward an authoritarian state” based on the “demand that collective good be put before individual self‐​interest.”

    ...Schivelbusch is not the first to have noticed such similarities. B.C. Forbes, the founder of the eponymous magazine, denounced “rampant Fascism” in 1933. In 1935 former President Herbert Hoover was using phrases like “Fascist regimentation” in discussing the New Deal. A decade later, he wrote in his memoirs that “the New Deal introduced to Americans the spectacle of Fascist dictation to business, labor and agriculture,” and that measures such as the Agricultural Adjustment Act, “in their consequences of control of products and markets, set up an uncanny Americanized parallel with the agricultural regime of Mussolini and Hitler.” In 1944, in The Road to Serfdom, the economist F.A. Hayek warned that economic planning could lead to totalitarianism. He cautioned Americans and Britons not to think that there was something uniquely evil about the German soul. National Socialism, he said, drew on collectivist ideas that had permeated the Western world for a generation or more.

    ...
    Try reading real history instead of opinion pieces and book reviews.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    That's a very interesting read. There is something a bit diabolical in it. 'Better to be feared than loved'...
    And, if a ruler must to bad stuff, get it over with at one time. When doing good things, draw it out over time.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    I do recall one actual Nazi on this board, or at least he claimed to be. Don’t remember his screen name.
    Make Orwell fiction again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It's your slant that's disingenuous for the admiration among FDR, Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin was mutual.

    Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt



    Try reading real history instead of opinion pieces and book reviews.
    I never said it wasn't mutual; in the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveDog View Post
    I do recall one actual Nazi on this board, or at least he claimed to be. Don’t remember his screen name.
    Probably got banned pretty fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveDog View Post
    I do recall one actual Nazi on this board, or at least he claimed to be. Don’t remember his screen name.
    We have one claiming to be a fascist now but I don't think he knows what the word means, he just likes to enflame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    We have one claiming to be a fascist now but I don't think he knows what the word means, he just likes to enflame.
    A "fascist" is "enflaming"... How so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    A "fascist" is "enflaming"... How so?
    It's, duh, much of what this thread is about.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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