Question for Democrats

[Thom Paine]

Well I'm not a Democrat, but since I'm one of like four or five tPF members who sometimes votes for Democrats (e.g. voted for Biden this year), I assume I'm the kind of person this thread is directed toward, so lemme go through these:

I'm wondering what it is that appeals to you about the Democratic party? It's not the Republican Party. Beyond that, not too much. There are reasons why I'm an independent.

Do you support socialism? Do you see yourself as a socialist? Do you want to live in a more socialist country? Kind of, actually. Maybe it's just having spent my whole life now living practically if not literally paycheck to paycheck, coming from a low-income background, or just my persistent sense of personal loneliness and estrangement, but I just feel like there has to be way of doing things than this because I really, really hate capitalism. I really do. Like what is today called the PBS News Hour remains my favorite news programming, my video games and movies purchases are like 90% indies, much of my favorite music was released without a recording label, I drink craft beer, etc. I'm that kind of person. I don't feel like I'm a match for the socio-economic context in which I live at all. I feel just like an alien from another planet and have no doubt that people perceive me that way. I know what the historical problems have been with "socialist" societies in the past in terms of being inefficient and sometimes feeding into authoritarian politics and I don't claim to have any kind of specific answers. I know capitalism probably is the most efficient economic system there is. It's just entirely too soulless for me to accept as the best that we as a species can do. It sucks the life out of art and culture and leaves far too many people behind structurally. There just has to be a better way!

Incidentally, the Democrats are NOT a socialist party. None of them are. Not even the ones who claim to be socialists. But they are more apt to support simple ideas like raising the minimum wage and a more universally-accessible approach to the distribution of health insurance that I find favorable.
Do you see yourself as protecting the weak? I am the weak.

Do you think that freedom of speech and information should be restricted from including conservative thought? Nope! This is among the areas where I disagree with the Democrats, and the left more broadly, the most strongly these days. I'm speaking here as someone who's favorite reddit was taken down this year by trans activists and who has been banned from certain forums and social medias for opposing transgenderism and prostitution.

Do you genuinely think all Republicans are racist? Do you want to see one party (Democratic) rule without checks and balances? I think both parties are basically racist, just in opposing directions. As to the second query here, of course not.

Do you dislike religious people? I have a problem with those who have a problem with me. I've experimented with various faiths myself in the past trying to figure life out; find a sense of purpose, you know? I get that. I'm still looking for purpose. That's different though than people trying to force their faith on others though. Bottom line: if you can't accept me as a gay person or as an atheist -- like if you feel the state should step in and try and alter that for me -- we have a problem. Otherwise whatever, good luck on your personal journey! Faith didn't work out for me, but maybe it will prove more helpful to you.

What are you hoping to gain from a Biden presidency? A more assured survival of this pandemic mainly. Also though, a higher minimum wage would be nice too. That would benefit me directly. And considering that I just lost my health insurance because I lost my career this year, a public health insurance option sounds like a nice idea to me too right about now especially. Also re-entry into world affairs, as in like the restoration of relations with the European Union and re-entry into the Paris Accord, stuff like that. Also also, general stability, just for the sake of my personal sanity. I'm tired of everything being hyper-politicized these days and ideally hope that in someone dull like Biden we might get a rather mundane, uneventful presidency to help calm my nerves after this last, chaotic one.

As I said, these are sincere questions. I have friends who are Democrats, and I'm trying to start a dialogue to understand what people are supporting. I think the main thing is to get back to a place of thinking of your political opponents as human beings again and not as stereotypes. I think we as a society need to get back to such a place. Not everybody shares all the views of the party they vote for and not everyone votes straight-ticket. For example, I voted for Biden but there's a Senate race in Georgia that I kind of hope is won by the Republican candidate Kelly Loeffler. I've also voted for third party candidates before and used to belong to the Vermont Progressive Party myself. Lots of people hold a complex assortment of views that way.

hmmmm, Extremely interesting response ... thoughts to ponder questions.
Happiness atcha' Polly .

[Tahuyaman]

Why are liberals, leftists and progressives just cliché machines? Do they ever actually think through the issues?

[Tahuyaman]

Even if you think they are sincere questions, they reflect a completely unrealistic caricature of the Democratic Party.

They are valid questions which you can’t answer honestly.

[US Conservative]

Definitely, I would like to see myself living in a nation where the public good is in command of the economy, rather than private profits. Socialism is the process, that leads to communism, and that process can take decades or even centuries, but it is the best economic model for the modern age. According to Karl Marx, a socialist economy can allow markets and privately-owned business enterprises to function. However, all privately-owned companies conduct business according to a national economic plan. that serves the best interests of the nation and the consumer/the people, rather than the capitalist class. In a socialist country, the major centers of economic power, all of the heavy industries, like energy/electric, utilities, mining, telecom, healthcare, and some other sectors of the economy, are nationalized (owned publicly). The consumer goods and services market, with few exceptions, would remain privately owned.



A modern, civilized society should protect the rights and interests of those who can't provide for and protect themselves. For example, children, those who suffer from some type of disability, handicap, or illness. We should take care of our elderly, as they get older. We must also provide for the poor (food, housing, healthcare, education/college/vocational training/job training..etc) to lift them out of scarcity. I wouldn't call people "weak", but let's say, some people need help, and society should make provision for them.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
Mat 25:36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thy healing shall spring forth speedily; and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of YHWH shall be thy rearward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and YHWH will answer; thou shalt cry, and he will say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking wickedly;

Indeed, the righteous, the true disciples of Jesus Christ, are concerned for the "weak":

Jas_2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

In God's Kingdom the so called "weak" are STRONG. God doesn't measure our value based on how much money we have or our worldly social status.


No, only when it's detrimental to society, like porn for example. I'm sure you as a conservative would agree, that porn destroys families, it promotes promiscuity, adultery, the abuse of women (our mothers, daughters, sisters..etc). Porn, as it was in the Soviet Union, should be banned. What else should be censored? Terrorist propaganda, that attempts to radicalize people to commit acts of violence, especially terrorism. I doubt you're in favor of that, right? Some things should be censored, but in general, we should be able to debate the issues without fear of being punished, oppressed or silenced. I'm for conservatives having a voice in the public square, like everybody else.



No, not really. Just a bit confused, misinformed, perhaps even brainwashed by their capitalist masters, but other than that, I don't assume Republicans are racist, because they're Republicans. One of my favorite presidents is Abraham Lincoln:

Attachment 33170




I would like to see a democratic socialist party replace the current "democratic party" . I'm for checks and balances, the rule of law..etc.


I don't dislike religious people for being religious, I dislike religious folks who are warmongers and pretend to be disciples of Jesus Christ, when they're abusing the poor and those who are in need. We have millions of people who think they're disciples of Jesus, but they're actually the disciples of mammon. They worship money, social status, capitalism, the American flag (they think God is an American, with an American flag displayed next to His throne in heaven and of course the flag of the secular state of Israel as well).



Some stability, sanity, a more mature, responsible, and effective president.



Sure.

War will come soon enough should Biden win.

Maybe where you'd hope it would, maybe the opposite.
Its what you support, and you apparently think it will make Biden more effective.

[Cletus]

Even if you think they are sincere questions, they reflect a completely unrealistic caricature of the Democratic Party.

Then answer them and show us how you view the Democrat Party.

Personally, I think the party is the enemy of the Republic and as a party, despises the principles upon which this country was founded and wants to see the country torn down and rebuilt in its image, which is diametrically opposed to the vision of the Founders.

That doesn't mean ALL Democrats seek that goal, but even the ones who don't serve as useful idiots and enablers to those who do.

[Cletus]

Democrats are a diverse group. They are all small groups that are joined by their anger.

And their ignorance.

[IMPress Polly]

I'm bored tonight, so I thought I'd pass the time by following up my earlier reply to the OP with a reply to other remarks by Omar that weren't directed toward me.

I never thought all Democrats were socialists, but I believe some of them are. I've read a lot of threads where the left leaning purpose defends socialism, and argues that it isn't a bad thing. Most economies are a mix of socialism and capitalism, including ours. Look at the recent arguments among the Democratic party, with some saying they need to stop talking about socialism.

To give you some perspective on what "socialism" means to the likes of Bernie Sanders and "the squad", Sanders has described Denmark as a "socialist country" that he considers a sort of going model. The Danish prime minister at the time denied the claim that his was a socialist country. That's because it isn't one, but rather a regular capitalist nation with a generous public welfare system.

Like I've said before, I regard myself as kind of a socialist, at least in theory. As far as both the dictionary and I are concerned, a socialist country, as the term implies, is one characterized by social ownership, and methinks preferably also by democratic control, over the means of production. What Bernie Sanders and "the squad" want is tuition-free college access, Medicare for all, a $15 minimum wage, and an assortment of new infrastructure projects. While that may be enough to strike terror in the hearts of the ruling class for all the tax revenue it may require, that's not exactly the same thing as a general system of social ownership and management.

These characters get away with calling themselves socialists and radicals today only because the center of political gravity in this country, as it pertains to economic policy at least, has strayed so far to the right in recent decades that just plain old New Dealist reformism seems revolutionary by today's standards.

I've never heard a Democrat say they want to restrict speech, but we are in fact seeing conservative speech restricted on social media sites. The mainstream media mostly only tells one side. Cancel Culture has tried to shut down opinions they do not agree with.

I don't know that I'd go that far. What I find to be going on here is a media establishment finding that, in a number of different ways ranging from online conversations about transgenderism to socialism to "globalism", the national, and indeed international, political conversation has been drifting away from their control for some time since the advent of social media and that it is hence time to reassert the previous level of corporate narrative control that was once had before the days of social media in the better interests of their advertisers. The narrative being reasserted forcibly by the corporate media favors whatever social policies avoid PR trouble (which is often shaped by activists) for them and therefore their advertisers and also whatever economic policies are in the financial interests of the same.

I heard an interview with an author, Linda Seger I think. She argued that a lot of left wing ideology falls in line with Christian values. Social programs providing care for the poor, for example. I have no doubt many Democrats are religious people. But they also seem to be the natural home of those who view religion as dangerous and delusional.

For sure! The Democrats are a big tent party. It includes many religious fundamentalists as well as many non-religious people and militant atheists.

I've heard many leftists say this. I find this a very interesting phenomenon, since I agree we are on the razor's edge of losing American democracy. But IMO the threat comes from the left. They seem far more likely to make the US a one party country. If they win the Senate race in January, they have openly talked about packing the Court (which would give them control of every federal branch), eliminating the filibuster and the 60 vote role, and adding states (which would give them more Senators), giving citizenship to illegal immigrants, opening the borders to bring in more, as well as eliminating the electoral college. All these measures would have the effect of making it much more difficult, if not impossible, for Republicans to gain any meaningful power in the future. The Democrats talk about Republicans bringing in fascism, but I haven't seen the Right even considering anything like this.

What we can all agree on is that everyone else is a threat to American democracy itself that has to be destroyed. Where does the real threat to democracy come from? From this mentality toward political opponents! It comes from all of us reaching the conclusion that all dissent to our own worldview is illegitimate, dangerous, and not to be tolerated.

I've reached a place of rolling my eyes at the Democrats' claims of "voter suppression" every single election cycle and the Republicans' claims of "voter fraud" every single election cycle. In reality, 81% of Democratic voters say they found it "very easy" to vote in this election, compared to 73% of Republicans, so if the GOP was suppressing their votes they sure weren't very effective! Likewise, voter fraud never happens these days unless it's conducted by Republicans themselves, so I mean I think they may be some projecting here this constant crying wolf over "Democratic voter fraud".

Similarly, lots of the Democratic Party's goals you claim are threats to American democracy are, in reality, obviously aimed at securing majority rule instead of the system of minority rule that Republicans prefer because they find they hardly ever win the most votes in national elections in the absence of the Cold War. If you can't win the most votes, whose fault is that? Primarily yours! Become a bigger tent party! Reach out to more people instead of just navel gazing all the time!

The exceptions here include 1) President Trump and 2) all attempts to pack the courts of this nation. Those are legitimate threats to democratic principles. Everyone is engaging in the latter right now. Mike Pence, for example, in his debate with Kamala Harris, openly bragged about how many, and these are his exact words, "conservative judges" the Trump Administration had gotten confirmed. There was a time not so long ago when Republicans bemoaned judicial activism. Now they plainly spell out for you that the motives behind their judicial appointments are ideological without the slightest bit of shame and somehow don't think of that as court-packing. All Democratic suggestions to reshape the Supreme Court so that more liberal judges can land there in a short period of time are of an analogous and troubling logic. As to President Trump being a threat to American democracy, he demonstrates that in a thousand ways all the time, I think, but perhaps the most obvious just borrowing from this year alone have included attempting to delay this year's presidential election, for example, and likewise to steal the election in an ongoing effort right now, to say nothing of pledging not to leave office on January 20th even though he has clearly been defeated by every metric. The man is entirely too narcissistic not to be considered politically dangerous to the nation as far as I'm concerned. And I mean beyond COVID and such.

[Omar]

Likewise, voter fraud never happens these days unless it's conducted by Republicans themselves, so I mean I think they may be some projecting here this constant crying wolf over "Democratic voter fraud".

I think you're way off base on that, Democrats are notorious cheaters. I haven't heard any Republicans calling for people to move to Georgia just long enough to vote in the January Senate runoff. There are reports of billionaires paying Democrats to move there.

If you can't win the most votes, whose fault is that? Primarily yours! Become a bigger tent party! Reach out to more people instead of just navel gazing all the time!

I agree that the Republicans, and maybe especially Trump, failed to get their message across effectively. Trump's harsh personality especially turned off female voters. This should have been a slam dunk for the Republicans IMO, based on the issues. I think the reasons Trump lost was because of the media's four year hate campaign against him, and Covid. I don't think anyone else would have done a better job on Covid (without destroying the economy), but seated presidents get blamed for what happens during their term. And Covid allowed the Dems to bring in all those mail in ballots.

Regarding court appointment, I don't believe conservative judges hurt the country any. They tend to see their role as simply interpreting the Constitution and the law (as it should be, IMO). Liberal judges are far more likely to go into business or themselves and legislate from the bench.

[chaidragonfire]

Even if you think they are sincere questions, they reflect a completely unrealistic caricature of the Democratic Party.

If these questions reflect an unrealistic caricature of the DNC, then why do they insist on acting this way in the media and in public?

And most pointedly, WHY do they work so hard at spreading hatred and intolerance, as well as racism and violence towards others?

[Omar]

If these questions reflect an unrealistic caricature of the DNC, then why do they insist on acting this way in the media and in public?

And note that the people who did decide to answer the questions did say they were in favor of socialism. So it turns out that wasn't such an unrealistic caricature, was it? I didn't just randomly decide to ask about socialism, I got it from the Democrats themselves.