Oh Dear, is the Pope is a l**r too?

[Mister D]

Is it his responsibility to understand the political nature of a particular issue or is it his job to allow Christian standards to be influenced by political issues?

Yes, it absolutely is his responsibility to understand the problems he wishes to pontificate on (shameless pun intended). To do less demeans the Papacy. To say that the West needs to love their neighbor and the stranger in the context of immigration/migration patterns and all of the political problems they create, for example, is simply inane. His problem is that at times he only perceives things through an ethical or moral lens when it's 1) simplistic and 2) not always appropriate.

[Lummy]

What are you talking about? The only insane level of personal worship I have seen for a President was this guy:

Maybe it's just the lighting, but the piece of $#@! looks to me like he is terribly amused with it all, like the devil would be in scoffing at the motions.



Plus, if that's his ring finger, then he has raised his left hand, and the photo is simply reversed. In what instance does one give an oath -- or whatever he's doing -- with his right hand on the Bible?

[Lummy]

[carolina73]

The Pope is meant to follow the Catholic Church Doctrine. The Pope is to make sure that people stay to the the Doctrine not alter it to fit what people want to do.

Anyone can certainly argue how legitimate that is based on how many times the Catholic Church rewrote its own dogma and history.

[Lummy]

Yeah, I get that.

However, all the events happening in the US and globally have the feel of a coordinated coup, at least to me. That's what's important.

[Captain Obvious]

Yes, it absolutely is his responsibility to understand the problems he wishes to pontificate on (shameless pun intended). To do less demeans the Papacy. To say that the West needs to love their neighbor and the stranger in the context of immigration/migration patterns and all of the political problems they create, for example, is simply inane. His problem is that at times he only perceives things through an ethical or moral lens when it's 1) simplistic and 2) not always appropriate.

I think that the slippery slope there is western "values and norms", politically or otherwise might influence the standard of Christianity if that makes sense.

Basically what we see here, in this thread now, he gets bashed over western, imperialistic trigger terms like "marxism" and all that nonsense, because western values wants a pope more like Trump than Christ - my original point.

[Mister D]

I think that the slippery slope there is western "values and norms", politically or otherwise might influence the standard of Christianity if that makes sense.

Basically what we see here, in this thread now, he gets bashed over western, imperialistic trigger terms like "marxism" and all that nonsense, because western values wants a pope more like Trump than Christ - my original point.

As I see it, some issues cannot be reduced to simple moral or ethical formulae. Pope Francis has a bad habit of doing precisely that.

Hypocrisy, as well as ignorance, abounds. What you said does make sense. Pope Francis will often be vilified by the American right for saying things that are so basic to Christianity his critics sound more like latter day Calvinists or, better still, Jews than Christians. Any mention of the common good and a just society is interpreted as Marxism. Yes, it's kind of retarded. That said, Francis earns quite a bit of criticism as well.

[Mister D]

The Pope is meant to follow the Catholic Church Doctrine. The Pope is to make sure that people stay to the the Doctrine not alter it to fit what people want to do.

Anyone can certainly argue how legitimate that is based on how many times the Catholic Church rewrote its own dogma and history.

What dogmas has the Catholic Church rewritten?

[Captain Obvious]

As I see it, some issues cannot be reduced to simple moral or ethical formulae. Pope Francis has a bad habit of doing precisely that.

Hypocrisy, as well as ignorance, abounds. What you said does make sense. Pope Francis will often be vilified by the American right for saying things that are so basic to Christianity his critics sound more like latter day Calvinists or, better still, Jews than Christians. Any mention of the common good and a just society is interpreted as Marxism. Yes, it's kind of retarded. That said, Francis earns quite a bit of criticism as well.

How so? Criticism?

Curious your thoughts on that, this isn't a "gotcha" question at all. You go way deeper into this stuff than I and 98% of this forum and I respect and value your opinion.

And I think I can almost anticipate where you're coming from but I think of Popes in terms of Christ, but historically, moreso before modern ages they were highly political and power and control minded. Wars, imperialism and all that. Nothing that Christ represented. At least in Western values contrary to Islamic values which in my folksy mind were really similar in a lot of respects.

[Mister D]

How so? Criticism?

Curious your thoughts on that, this isn't a "gotcha" question at all. You go way deeper into this stuff than I and 98% of this forum and I respect and value your opinion.

And I think I can almost anticipate where you're coming from but I think of Popes in terms of Christ, but historically, moreso before modern ages they were highly political and power and control minded. Wars, imperialism and all that. Nothing that Christ represented. At least in Western values contrary to Islamic values which in my folksy mind were really similar in a lot of respects.

I appreciate the compliment.

As I mentioned earlier, the Pope's pronouncements on the immigration/migration issue are infuriating. They're insouciant at best but not a few perceive some hostility to Europe and the US. This certainly isn't a racial or ethnic thing. Pope Francis is a dago. Like many Argentines, his ancestors are from Italy. I think it has something to do with the consumerism and materialism we discussed earlier. I actually agree with the Pope in that regard but not to the point of suicide. His biggest problem, however is his lack of clarity and his naivety. He'll make comments in interviews, for example, that are kind of vague and leave far too much room for interpretation. His recent remarks about civil unions are a great example. During an interview he gave for a documentary about his work in the Church he advocated for civil union laws and said that we need to be more accepting of homosexuals. They shouldn't be ostracized etc. As per usual, activists and progressives portrayed it as a revolution in the RCC. When I first read the story (posted here by an evangelical as an attack on the Pope) I could see why there was so much confusion and negativity. Is the Church changing its stance on marriage? Is gay marriage OK now? In reality, he was taken out of context and after doing a little research it was much easier to reconcile his remarks with Catholic teaching. He has allowed this to happen time and again. He grants interviews and makes off the cuff remarks to people who abuse the privilege.


The truth is that the Pope has always been a political figure and I don't think that's a bad thing per se. I'm not sure I agree about "wars and imperialism" but what occurred to me is that while you're right to point out the hypocrisy of some American Christians the hypocrisy of the left is just as blatant. Have you ever noticed how religion in the public sphere is suddenly awesome when Pope Francis says something they can use? One day progressives here are fond of telling us what a "real" Christian would support when it comes to the poor. The day before they were $#@!ting the bed over a Nativity scene and telling us that religion has no place in public life.