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Thread: The Choice That Lies Before Us In Two Pictures

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    There will always be rich and poor. Some of this is due to differences in ability.

    To be sure, but even more is due to differences in attitude and motivation.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    We all have decisions to make. In a free market, wages tend to sync with the intrinsic value of the work. It's not that the diner is less willing to shell out top dollar for that four course meal, it's that the money has to be split between the establishment and the cook, whereas the independent plumber keeps the proceeds for himself, minus his overhead.

    Wage information is out there and it's easy to find. The real problem lies in the inability to set goals for oneself and to live frugally now in order to live better later.

    When you see a burger-flipper who takes his weekly paycheck and spends it on $300 athletic shoes, you're seeing a person who has no self-control. It's not going to help to give him a living wage, he doesn't know how to save it for a down payment on a house or anything else. He wants instant gratification and he thinks you owe it to him.

    Not this year, but in years past I've helped serve community Thanksgiving dinners and you might be surprised to learn some of the habits of those who come to get free food. Some are truly down on their luck and it's always a pleasure to help them out -- others, especially young males -- are wearing high dollar shoes and playing with their i-Phones. They, or maybe their parents, simply have no clue as to how to save their money. You're not going to change those attitudes with living wages. You'll only exacerbate them.
    I think that it's more a case the nature of how we determine value and it often has nothing to do with the degree of intelligence, education, skill or ability, but how much we value one service over another and what we are willing to pay. For instance, we scarcely pay minimum wage to child care workers, yet they have to obtain post secondary accreditation to do that job and we are entrusting them with our precious children. Why, because we need child care, but don't want it to be too costly and it comes directly out of our pockets. Yet we will pay far more to the guy who picks up trash off the street who may or may not have graduated HS. In many places teachers need 5 to 6 years of post-secondary education, but for some reason we are loathe to pay teachers very well. The same city that skimps on teachers salaries will pay their electricians and sewer workers far more. Even college professors are not paid particularly well. Ultimately, we value educators far less than many other professional occupations and skilled trades.

    It takes years for those who pursue the culinary arts to make more than the average retail worker and even top chefs in five star restaurants aren't making the kind of money that most professionals make. We don't really value the people who prepare our food as much as the guy who fixes our sink.

    While the amount that we determine a service is worth is a matter of free market forces, it is also determined by our cultural values. It often has very little to do with 'abilities' per se but which abilities we value most.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I think that it's more a case the nature of how we determine value and it often has nothing to do with the degree of intelligence, education, skill or ability, but how much we value one service over another and what we are willing to pay. For instance, we scarcely pay minimum wage to child care workers, yet they have to obtain post secondary accreditation to do that job and we are entrusting them with our precious children. Why, because we need child care, but don't want it to be too costly and it comes directly out of our pockets. Yet we will pay far more to the guy who picks up trash off the street who may or may not have graduated HS.
    I'm not sure what state you're talking about because most states do not require a high school diploma for child caregivers, but rather have their own licensing regulations that include home visits, background checks, courses in first aid. A lot of states follow Red Cross ideals for child caregivers. Plus, we have the fact that if a parent makes $15 per hour at her job, she can't pay her child's caregiver $15 per hour.


    In many places teachers need 5 to 6 years of post-secondary education, but for some reason we are loathe to pay teachers very well. The same city that skimps on teachers salaries will pay their electricians and sewer workers far more. Even college professors are not paid particularly well. Ultimately, we value educators far less than many other professional occupations and skilled trades.
    This varies widely by community, but in my opinion, public school teachers make far more than they're worth -- on average. I tutored Vietnamese students in ESL about a decade ago as part of a community initiative (I'm not certified), and I was incredibly disappointed in the intellect and integrity of a majority of the teachers. One should have been fired for his bigotry in taking one of my students and putting him in a half-desk between tall file cabinets where he could not see the rest of the class. It was weeks before I discovered the abuse. That teacher, who was also the high school basketball coach, was allowed to get by with it. In many, many other interactions with teachers, I discovered most of them are as dumb as bricks, which is obviously a factor in our nation's failing school system. The saddest part is that this school district is rated as one of the best in the state.

    It takes years for those who pursue the culinary arts to make more than the average retail worker and even top chefs in five star restaurants aren't making the kind of money that most professionals make. We don't really value the people who prepare our food as much as the guy who fixes our sink.
    Do you need a 5-star chef to fix your meals? You might like that, but is it a necessity? When your sewer system backs up -- you're going to need that plumber, asap, and that's why his wages are higher. Supply and demand. The chef had a choice just as the plumber did. When you choose a low-wage career, you have no one to blame but yourself. Neither of those two workers are slaves to their careers. They both made choices.

    While the amount that we determine a service is worth is a matter of free market forces, it is also determined by our cultural values. It often has very little to do with 'abilities' per se but which abilities we value most.
    Which is as it should be. Bottom line -- as a society -- we don't owe any person any set wage. Every person is free to make career choices and if they choose the life of a starving artist, so be it. If their art ever becomes highly valued, they may see a rise in income. Until then, they would be wise to get a second job.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I said this about Pickle a long time ago. Apparently, the mod team thinks he's adorable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    How we define 'ability' is fairly arbitrary as is how we reward those abilities. Some abilities are far more monetized than others.
    And the market does that well. When governments try to do it you get injustice.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    I'm not sure what state you're talking about because most states do not require a high school diploma for child caregivers, but rather have their own licensing regulations that include home visits, background checks, courses in first aid. A lot of states follow Red Cross ideals for child caregivers. Plus, we have the fact that if a parent makes $15 per hour at her job, she can't pay her child's caregiver $15 per hour.




    This varies widely by community, but in my opinion, public school teachers make far more than they're worth -- on average. I tutored Vietnamese students in ESL about a decade ago as part of a community initiative (I'm not certified), and I was incredibly disappointed in the intellect and integrity of a majority of the teachers. One should have been fired for his bigotry in taking one of my students and putting him in a half-desk between tall file cabinets where he could not see the rest of the class. It was weeks before I discovered the abuse. That teacher, who was also the high school basketball coach, was allowed to get by with it. In many, many other interactions with teachers, I discovered most of them are as dumb as bricks, which is obviously a factor in our nation's failing school system. The saddest part is that this school district is rated as one of the best in the state.



    Do you need a 5-star chef to fix your meals? You might like that, but is it a necessity? When your sewer system backs up -- you're going to need that plumber, asap, and that's why his wages are higher. Supply and demand. The chef had a choice just as the plumber did. When you choose a low-wage career, you have no one to blame but yourself. Neither of those two workers are slaves to their careers. They both made choices.



    Which is as it should be. Bottom line -- as a society -- we don't owe any person any set wage. Every person is free to make career choices and if they choose the life of a starving artist, so be it. If their art ever becomes highly valued, they may see a rise in income. Until then, they would be wise to get a second job.
    From a practical perspective you are correct and that's the way the world works. I am looking at this more philosophically. Everyone comes into this world with unique talents. If you are very lucky, you can make a living and even become successful based on those innate talents. For most people however, their innate talents remain untapped resources or relegated to hobbies because there isn't a market or a big enough market to allow them to make a living at doing what they do best. People end up in careers that pay the bills, but unless that career draws on that person's natural talents in some fashion, they are unlikely to ever become really outstanding in that field. You mentioned motivation. Money as a motivator is not going to make a great mechanic out of someone who isn't mechanically inclined. We have millions of people who are square pegs in round holes, including teachers who should be carpenters and accountants who should really be chefs and the best that you can expect from them is competent but not really noteworthy performance.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    How we define 'ability' is fairly arbitrary as is how we reward those abilities. Some abilities are far more monetized than others.
    Because some are more valuable to society than others.
    When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.“ - Benjamin Franklin.


    “When people get used to preferential treatment equal treatment seems like discrimination.” - Thomas Sowell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    There will always be rich and poor. Some of this is due to differences in ability.
    A much greater proportion of this is due to inertia. It's the foundational difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives prefer the status quo always, and believe in the inertia of things at rest; liberals prefer to find ways to make things better, and believe in the inertia of things in motion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
    A much greater proportion of this is due to inertia. It's the foundational difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives prefer the status quo always, and believe in the inertia of things at rest; liberals prefer to find ways to make things better, and believe in the inertia of things in motion.
    That's the liberal view of conservatism, which is inaccurate.

    Conservatives know now that change is inevitable and we must have the ability to adapt to change. However they don't believe in change just for the sake of change.

    Conservatives don't believe in fixing things which aren't broken. They also don't believe in the liberal view of enacting the same policies and ideas which fail every time they're tried.


    Conservative also also don't buy into the idea of redefining words and terms. To a conservative, taxes are not contributions as contributions are voluntary. Government spending on redundant social programs is not an investment as that money is gone never to be seen again. You receive a tangible return from an investment.

    Conservatives also don't view diversity as a race and gender thing. They view it as diversity of thought and ideas regardless of race and gender. Liberalism is of one mind. Everyone must agree. No diversity of ideas or thought. In fact with liberalism diversity of ideas is silenced.


    Conservatives also believe in the concepts of " rugged individualism" and natural rights. We believe that when individuals succeed all of society benefits. Also we are born with certain rights. These rights are not granted by government. The function of government is to protect and defend those rights.


    With liberals it's a zero sum game. When individuals succeed, they are said to be taking something from someone else. The collective is victimized by individual achievement.
    Last edited by Tahuyaman; 12-06-2020 at 01:40 PM.
    When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.“ - Benjamin Franklin.


    “When people get used to preferential treatment equal treatment seems like discrimination.” - Thomas Sowell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    A sudden disappearance of Covid-19, world peace and an end to all poverty, but I'd settle for universal availability of a vaccine so that people can go back to their normal lives.
    Well, we have vaccines by Phizer and Moderna, one with over a 90 percent effectiveness rate, and the other with a 95 percent effectiveness rate (which are about to receive fast-track FDA approval); plus one just developed by AstraZeneca.

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