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Thread: Why Lisa Montgomery Shouldn't be Executed

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    Certain people should lose their right to live. It took 12 people to arrive at this.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
    Pick your enemies carefully.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    I encourage you to read some of the links in the OP because she did not "willingly" undergo sterilization (her mother, one of her abusers, coerced her), she did think she was pregnant because she was delusional, and even if she those two things were not true it is troubling that this individual is the one being put to death when the 80 other women who have done this exact same crime are not sentenced to death. The death penalty is unequally applied.

    Yes, the death penalty is unequally applied. It's rarely applied to white women, so this is a bit of an anomaly, isn't it?

    The thing about this woman is that she planned and premeditated every minute of the murder and kidnapping, right down to faking her own pregnancy (something she'd done before). You say she experienced pseudocyesis, but that's impossible, because a woman with pseudocyesis thinks she's actually pregnant, she doesn't plot to murder another and kidnap her baby. A woman with pseudocyesis will eventually discover she's not pregnant and she will suffer an emotional loss. She won't create elaborate stories to hide murderous plans.

    Nope. This woman is a flat-out killer. Nothing less. She'd used pregnancy ruses in the past to manipulate. None of the abuse that happened to her is an excuse for her actions. A beautiful young woman died at her hands and a mother was stolen from a child.

    As far as I'm concerned, mental illness should not be a defense. As I said, I don't care one way or the other. I see her attorneys trying to do back flips to keep her from being executed, but I would leave it up to the wishes of the family of the woman she murdered.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Yes, the death penalty is unequally applied. It's rarely applied to white women, so this is a bit of an anomaly, isn't it?

    The thing about this woman is that she planned and premeditated every minute of the murder and kidnapping, right down to faking her own pregnancy (something she'd done before). You say she experienced pseudocyesis, but that's impossible, because a woman with pseudocyesis thinks she's actually pregnant, she doesn't plot to murder another and kidnap her baby. A woman with pseudocyesis will eventually discover she's not pregnant and she will suffer an emotional loss. She won't create elaborate stories to hide murderous plans.

    Nope. This woman is a flat-out killer. Nothing less. She'd used pregnancy ruses in the past to manipulate. None of the abuse that happened to her is an excuse for her actions. A beautiful young woman died at her hands and a mother was stolen from a child.

    As far as I'm concerned, mental illness should not be a defense. As I said, I don't care one way or the other. I see her attorneys trying to do back flips to keep her from being executed, but I would leave it up to the wishes of the family of the woman she murdered.
    Pseudocyesis has overvalued ideas which by definition are nearly impossible (typically totally impossible) to differentiate from reality. An individual will totally think that they are pregnant, experience physical signs and symptoms, and likely engage in behaviors to reinforce this without actually being cognizant that they are simulating their own condition. The belief is so strong that the individual will do anything to support it, even if it involves cognitive dissonance or even dissociation If she were just straight-up lying, it would probably qualify as a factitious disorder and again there would be a psychological explanation behind her actions - not a justification, but an explanation.

    If we totally remove that from the equation, this woman is still extremely ill. Her MRI alone can heavily support this, and I went over the issue with the testimony about her psychopathology (evaluations sensitive to expansive/diverse or severe psychopathology and can be misinterpreted as malingering). The MRI was not included because it is not conclusive proof that can be replicated reliably and cannot be included according to Daubert. The issue here is that if you polled neuropsychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists, and so on, most would agree about the impact of developmental trauma on brain development and be able to tell you what general deficits to expect based on the laboratory results. I expect that MRIs will be included in expert testimony related to trauma within the next 5 to 10 years because it is heavily studied.

    We are also not talking about a defense - we are talking about what should be considered in sentencing. If we do not execute people with cognitive impairment, why are we executing people with such significant psychopathology? People do not choose to be this mentally ill or traumatized. They often lack resources for treatment and even with access many of these conditions are highly resistant to treatment or frequently relapse. This is significant impairment, but it isn't intellectual in nature - it is cognitive, emotional, behavioral...
    FYIWDWYTM

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    "The Brain Defense," Kevin Davis focuses on a murder case. An old man, Harvey Weinstein was eating dinner with his wife and they got into an argument. She slapped him and he straggled her to death. Then threw her out of the window of their high rise condo in NYC.

    This guy had no history of violence. Was respected in the community. His lawyer was looking for answers and had a brain scan done. Harvey had a large brain tumor. The lawyer had many other tests done and created the temporarily insane defense based on a damaged brain. The case was likely the first successful use of the brain defense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    Pseudocyesis has overvalued ideas which by definition are nearly impossible (typically totally impossible) to differentiate from reality. An individual will totally think that they are pregnant, experience physical signs and symptoms, and likely engage in behaviors to reinforce this without actually being cognizant that they are simulating their own condition. The belief is so strong that the individual will do anything to support it, even if it involves cognitive dissonance or even dissociation If she were just straight-up lying, it would probably qualify as a factitious disorder and again there would be a psychological explanation behind her actions - not a justification, but an explanation.

    If we totally remove that from the equation, this woman is still extremely ill. Her MRI alone can heavily support this, and I went over the issue with the testimony about her psychopathology (evaluations sensitive to expansive/diverse or severe psychopathology and can be misinterpreted as malingering). The MRI was not included because it is not conclusive proof that can be replicated reliably and cannot be included according to Daubert. The issue here is that if you polled neuropsychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists, and so on, most would agree about the impact of developmental trauma on brain development and be able to tell you what general deficits to expect based on the laboratory results. I expect that MRIs will be included in expert testimony related to trauma within the next 5 to 10 years because it is heavily studied.

    We are also not talking about a defense - we are talking about what should be considered in sentencing. If we do not execute people with cognitive impairment, why are we executing people with such significant psychopathology? People do not choose to be this mentally ill or traumatized. They often lack resources for treatment and even with access many of these conditions are highly resistant to treatment or frequently relapse. This is significant impairment, but it isn't intellectual in nature - it is cognitive, emotional, behavioral...
    My point is that her mental illness should not be considered in sentencing. Everything I've read from the defense attorneys feels contrived and at-odds with what she did and who she was. Millions upon millions are sexually abused, they still have to function responsibly in this world.

    She had absolute control over her actions.

    Forensic psychologist Dr. Park Dietz said there is enough evidence from the killing to determine Ms. Montgomery knew she wasn't pregnant and therefore wasn't suffering from pseudocyesis, a rare medical condition that makes women believe they're pregnant to the point physical symptoms of pregnancy might occur.
    Dr. Dietz said the evidence points to the opposite - that she knew she wasn't pregnant and wasn't having a delusion of pregnancy. He said someone having delusions wouldn't need to reinforce the delusion by manufacturing "proof." Someone having delusions of aliens planting transmitters in their home may destroy their home looking for the transmitters but wouldn't go to Radio Shack to buy one and plant it in their home to prove the delusion, Dr. Dietz gave as an example.

    Previous evidence showed that, among other actions, Ms. Montgomery forged a letter from an obstetrician during her falsified pregnancy to show her husband, Kevin. The obstetrician briefly was called last week to say he not only didn't counsel Ms. Montgomery for pregnancy, but he only treated her for a sore ankle a year before.
    https://www.newspressnow.com/news/ar....html?mode=jqm

    She's an incredible manipulator -- don't believe the story the defense has concocted. Lisa comes as close to pure evil as any human out there. Her history is one of lying and manipulating to get her way.

    There was always an excuse, followed by another set of lies. Carl had known her for twenty years. They'd had four children together. There was no way she could be pregnant; medically speaking, it was impossible. Carl was there the day she'd had her tubal ligation surgery. They'd talked about it beforehand, and both had agreed it was the best thing for the family.
    "She was actually relived after the procedure," he said. "We didn't want any more children."
    So much for the tale that she was pressured by her mother into a tubal ligation.


    In court, Carl was going to prove Lisa was a fraud. He was planning on providing evidence of how she had perjured herself recently during a custody hearing over her nephew. During the hearing, Lisa said she'd given birth to a baby in her doctor's office, but it was stillborn. Because it had died, she told the court, she donated it to science.

    With Lisa by his side, Carl's son continued speaking for her. "She says she's considering allowing me to live with you but wants to know if you're taking me out of school." Then, after a moment of whispering in the background, "She's very upset, you know, that you filed those papers with the court."


    "Put her on the phone."

    "You have no chance of getting the kids," said Lisa as soon as she put the receiver to her mouth. "I'm going to prove you are the liar, Carl."
    https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/sto...2041630&page=1

    That last sentence should show you how evil Lisa really is. She was out for blood and it had nothing to do with thinking she was pregnant or wanting a baby. She just wanted to beat her ex and she murdered an innocent young woman to do it.

    The defense is making $#@! up. Don't buy into it. The jury didn't.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    For as awful as what this woman did was, this seems wrong. But on the flip side, I'm sure there have been many severely mentally ill men who have been executed when they probably shouldn't have as well, and no one blinked an eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    I don't think so - it might set a dangerous precedent. What level of psychopathology is enough to mean someone should not be executed? You cannot really measure it the same way that you can cognitive ability/intelligence.

    Maybe they should halt it for now and a discussion should take place about the issue. In cases like hers, it just seems so incredibly unethical and while she is responsible for her crimes, I do not think she would have committed them without her lengthy and disturbing biopsychosocial history (which she isn't responsible for).

    They've executed her as I'm sure you already know. Mental illness or not, her journey here is over. I'm not sure there was a clear line between wrong or right in this case. It's just as well.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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